Candlesticks I have no clue?

[captroosh]

I have always wanted a working Antique rotary dial Candlestick phone. Although I might settle for one without a dial for the right price. Now I found a couple in my max price range of about $175. i know that's probably too low. I have looked over the Sticky with Cindy in candlestick phones section. So I at least have a primer but not much else. Item 1 is purported to be a WE 151AL in rough shape in my opinion at least needs a cleaning https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Western-Electric-151AL-Rotary-Dial-Candlestick-Telephone-Phone/383340727180 Item 2 is supposed to be an Automatic Electric. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Vintage-Automatic-Electric-Co-Rotary-Dial-Candle-Stick-Phone/274242481224 Seller doesn't no what year and I could find no telltale markings except the company name on the dial. They have not been tested but I'm sure I could fix if need be. Are these what they appear to be? Also I have seen a lot about subsets for these. Are they absolutely required to make them function or can they be used as a silent extension as it were. Any help is always appreciated Thank you.

[HarrySmith]

I cannot really tell much from those pictures. Do you have any more clear pictures? Yes, a subset is needed for proper operation or at least a network of some kind. A 302 base can be used as a subset. Some people install a mini network in the base of the stick also. Lots of options.

[captroosh]

I enclosed links  to the ebay auctions. There is not much in the rest of the photos. The first phone pictured had this on the side of the dial. No other markings I could see. As to the second it had few pictures and no markings other than Automatic Electric on the dial.

[HarrySmith]

Sorry, I missed the links. The WE stick appears to have a #2 dial in it so I would tend to think the rest of it would be correct. I am not an expert in candlesticks at all and even less so on AE sticks but that one looks good to me.

[captroosh]

hey your eyes are better than mine. thank you.

[HarrySmith]

Picture of We stick dial with outside fingerstop. I cannot tell if the number ring is notched or not.

[HowardPgh]

If I had the choice, I would go for the 151AL. Externally it looks correct with the bulldog transmitter and 706 receiver. If you like to clen up and restore that would be my choice, it just looks dirty. BTW the dial plate looks notched.
The Automatic Electric looks very clean. The date range is 1920s to 1930s. Some have brass bases, later ones have molded bakelite bases.

[Doug Rose]

Picture of We stick dial with outside fingerstop. I cannot tell if the number ring is notched or not.

Harry...Dial plate has a Z so it is notched. probably a 2AA.  Everything looks correct on the outside, except the dial plate

I do like the AE with the recessed dial.  Both are very sharp and the price is right for both.

Me...I agree with Harry and like the WE.....but the AE is nice.  It's close on the cosmetic look.

I was a lot of help.  ....Doug

[Jack Ryan]

Americans tend to collect WE telephones so they have a higher value even though they are the most common.

The pictures of the 151AL are pretty poor - I can't even verify that it is a 151AL.
It has some marks that don't look like dirt but otherwise, when cleaned, it should display pretty well. It has a 2AB dial with a notched plate which is good - even with the notched plate.
The 151AL was never sold new, it is a refurbished 50AL or 51AL telephone that uses an AST circuit (it needs a 4xx or 6xx subset). In addition, the transmitter and receiver of this telephone have been upgraded to a 635 (Bulldog) and a 706 respectively so sound quality should be pretty good.
Polished up and presented well, it would be worth more than the asking price.

The AE Type 21 looks good but I think it has been refurbished by a dealer or collector and the elements replaced. The dial looks like a Type 23 which is good but given its refurbished state and the ordinary (nothing special) parts (except for the dial) I think it is too expensive.

This is my opinion and I would use it to guide my decision process. Others might disagree.

Regards
Jack

[Jack Ryan]

I do like the AE with the recessed dial.  Both are very sharp and the price is right for both.

Doug,

I don't think the dial is recessed. I think it is a brass base with a Type 23 dial attached.

Jack

[captroosh]

Thanks for all the replies. So much I don't really know. You guys are a big help. I know very little about dials and so many parts like a 635 (bulldog). To be honest the AE looks a little to nice to me. Can't tell much from pictures but it looks like the transmitter has been repainted. I am leaning towards the WE.  One reason is because it looks dirty. I understand such things can be faked but it at least makes me think it hasn't been touched in awhile. I certainly like the Idea that it might be worth more later but knowing myself I will probably never sell it. Any more observations are always welcome as I am still pondering and most of all learning. SO One of you mentioned I can use a 302 base as a subset. I've come across the terms sidetone and anti-sidetone. 1st can the 302 base be used in either case if not how do I tell what the stick i, and can the 302 be adapted if need be? Oh one last question Notched vs Un-notched dial plates, I'm assuming the notched ones from what I have seen are notches for the finger stop, Is that correct. Sorry for all the questions.

[captroosh]

Well it appears I took to long to decide. I was going to purchase the WE when I got home from work but both were sold. I'll keep looking.

[Doug Rose]

Doug,

I don't think the dial is recessed. I think it is a brass base with a Type 23 dial attached.

Jack

Looked recessed to me, not like a type 24 sitting on top....Doug

[Desert Phone Guy]

The notched dial number plates are newer and were made for the number 4 and number 5 series dials.  The #4 and 5 dials used a recessed finger stop that was mounted inside the body of the dial.  The dial plates for these units required the notched dial plates to fit.

The earlier number two dials used an externally mounted fingers stop that was attached with two screws on the rim of the outside of the dial body.  These dials used  unnotched dial plates.  These unnotched dial plates has a raised center collar to prevent dirt from entering the dial mechanism, and  also used three pins on the back which would nest in three holes stamped on the inside of the dial on a bracket.  The bracket also served to stop the dial from returning too far after a number was released.

Often we find number 2 dials with notched plates.  I suspicion that these turn up because the un notched dial plates were out of production.  When a phone was refurbished, the cords, the dial plate , the transmitter, and receiver were usually upgraded.

The unnotched plates also have a raised center collar that you can see if you view the dial horizontally.

Also, occasionally you will find a "modified" number plate that has the raised collar, mounting pins in the back, and a notch for use with the later internally mounted fingerstop dials.  I would guess these were the factory attempt to use up all the remaining stock of  unnotched plates and install them on the newer dials.

Steve

[captroosh]

Wow. Thanks Steve for the in depth information. I love learning about these things. I'm looking at another AE I just found. It's in rough shape. The guy want's $175 From what I can see it obviously has a chipped Mouthpiece and the dial card is missing. It also has an interesting coil with a plug to connect to an old style jack. How would that work if they require a subset? Did the subsets use that kind of connection to the phone? I was think of making an offer of maybe 125 but that coiled cord is bothering me?