First repair / restoration .... need some help please

[xtal_01]

I just joined the forum and this is my first post.

I am a bit of a "history of technology" junkie.

I also want things to work as they did when they were produced.

I am a machinist by trade and instrumentation designer/technician.

I had the idea back some years ago of getting two old wooden all phones and having them work between my house and shop.

I bought an old Western Electric some years ago.  Then we started building a new house and shop.  So it got packed away.

The other day, I came across a good deal on another phone,  It is looks similar but is made by "Federal Telephone and Telegraph Co .... Buffalo, NY".

http://www.telephonecollecting.org/Bobs%20phones/Pages/Federal/Federal%20Telephone%20&%20Telegraph.htm

It seems in remarkable shape for it's age (1920's).

Even thought I have never touched one of these phones, most of it is straight forward.  The bell had fallen out.  I found the parts, installed it and adjusted it (at first it would not ring .... spring tension).  They must have been loose for a long while, wear marks under the bells right into the wood.

Anyway, a few problems left with it.

1) Chuck of the threads in the mouth piece broken off.  Frustrating ... told the person shipping it to unscrew it.  They didn't, it broke.  It still screws in and I have the piece, just want to know how you guys repair it ... super glue, epoxy, fiberglass, ?  **** Issue # 1 actually lead me to this forum ... I read a lot of posts and am a bit confused as too the "best" repair glue in this case ******   I see replacements but I don't know which this unit would take and if they really would "match' since this would be the only none original part ... or maybe someone has a stash of originals put away ?

2) It needs a new cord.  Does someone make reproductions?  This one has "pin" ends on it not spade connectors (I have seen these on crystal radio head sets).

3) How do I hook it up?  There are three terminals but only two are being used.  On top of this, the two wires that I assume go to the batteries connect to the terminals.  Then again, no marks where batteries would be ... no batteries? I don't want to move the wires too much ... very brittle insulation so I am hoping someone has a wiring diagram.

4) I also need to find or make a cover over the clapper.  Two holes are there and I see the indentation on the wood but it is missing.

Attached are pictures of the phone.

Thanks .... Mike

[Dan/Panther]

I had a broken transmitter cup on my WE 317E, I was able to Super glue it back together to working condition until I got  better one.

D/P

[mentalstampede]

Old Phone Works makes and sells reproduction cordage. You can specify the color and type of restraint and termination, and their products are well made.

https://www.oldphoneworks.com/cloth-covered-receiver-cord-various-colors-and-styles.html

[Alex G. Bell]

I just joined the forum and this is my first post.

The transmitter arm is installed upside down.  It should be curving upward, not downward so that when pivoted down the face plate is as vertical as possible. 

You can reverse this by removing the pivot bolt which attaches the arm to the bracket and rotating the arm 180º.  To do this you normally would need to disconnect the wires to the transmitter by removing it from the front cup.  You would at least need enough slack in the wires to withdraw it from the bracket and reinsert it: about 2".  In this case the wiring has been stripped so it's strictly a mechanical problem and you don't need to remove the transmitter from the cup to correct it.

Removing the faceplate from the front cup requires a 1/8" slotted screwdriver with a thin blade.  These screws are almost always brass and often brittle.  The heads sometimes break off if too much torque (and not very much torque at that) is applied. 

I recently worked on one which had damaged screw threads, requiring a considerable amount of torque to remove.  3 of the 4 came out without breaking but one broke.  After removing the transmitter I had to drill it out and chase the threads of all 4 holes with a #2-56 tap to correct the damage done to all 4 by forcing in damaged screws.  I replaced the original screws with steel #2-56 screws instead.

[Victor Laszlo]

In terms of hooking up two of these old critters to create an intercom, there is a lot to be written and read.

The first thing you need to study is the concept of "local battery" (LB) telephones. You need two electrically-equivalent telephones. As long as they are both LB, you'll get success.  Your telephones use a battery inside the box, to power the transmitter (microphone, in general terms). The voice signal, created locally, is transmitted over one wire (historically) or two wires (since the advent of commercial electrical transmission) to the other end, where it is changed to sound in the receiver of the other phone.

Ringing is accomplished by turning the crank, which generates a high(er) voltage AC that rings the bell at the other end.

Many phones can be placed along the line, creating a party line, which was, historically, the way local systems began.

[xtal_01]

WOW!  Fast responses!  Got to love the internet.

Thanks so much for the advice ...

So for my issues ....

1) Cracked Bakelite .... I have both super glue and epoxy (JB Weld) here in the shop.  I was about to super glue the part together ... then I noticed small chips out of the threads.  Because of the way it broke, it still threads into the transmitter.  Should I super glue then put on some epoxy and thread it in so that if forms the broken part or just put on the epoxy and thread it in to form the broken part?  I can put some silicon lube on the threads so it does not stick.

2) I will go to there web site right not and see about a cord.

3) Both phones now ring (so both magnetos and ringers are good ... leaves only the receiver, transmitter and inductor to somehow test).  I have been looking into making a reproduction of a #6 battery (last time I used one of these was to start a model U-control plane back in the early 70's .... I will be 55 next month born in 1962).   I still need some kind of wiring diagram.  I just don't think the two wires that got to the bottom of the terminals are correct.  I am betting they go to the battery (not sure which would be plus or minus) and the terminals are for the outgoing lines.  My best guess from reading is that the two phones I have are almost identical.  The other one is a Western Electric and from what I read, this Federal is a copy of a Western Electric.

4) Any thoughts on a clapper cover?

WOW ... completely missed the arm being upside down.  The screws all seem to be steel.  It was "fun" to try and turn the ringer adjustment screw ... oil and a good screw driver slowly twisting back and forth.  I did loosen the three screws on the transmitter .... did not take it apart yet.

If I felt the "need" (and I am trying not to unless a wire breaks .... cringe every time I bend them) to rewire the unit, can original cloth wrapped wire be found or what do restorers use?

Thanks so very much again ..... Mike

[Alex G. Bell]

Thanks so much for the advice ...
...
WOW ... completely missed the arm being upside down.  The screws all seem to be steel.  It was "fun" to try and turn the ringer adjustment screw ... oil and a good screw driver slowly twisting back and forth.  I did loosen the three screws on the transmitter .... did not take it apart yet.

If I felt the "need" (and I am trying not to unless a wire breaks .... cringe every time I bend them) to rewire the unit, can original cloth wrapped wire be found or what do restorers use?

Thanks so very much again ..... Mike

Sorry!  I misspoke.  I looked at the photo quickly without enlarging it and did not see the neatly wired transmitter leads.  There certainly is no slack inside the cabinet between the terminals and the transmitter so you will have to remove the transmitter face plate from the cup by removing the 4 transmitter face plate edge screws, disconnect it and probably withdraw the wires from the arm to flip the arm up. 

Generally speaking, there are two types of wiring in wood phones.  Earlier so-called "fiddle back" phones have grooves along the back of the back board with bare wire strung through the grooves and passed through holes into the cabinet at the point where they need to connect to the internal components.  This wiring is usually "solid" (1 thick strand) and breakable if flexed excessively but usually can tolerate the amount of flexing necessary for maintenance.

Later "harness wired" phones like this one almost invariably are wired with "stranded" (multiple fine strands per conductor) wire bundled and "laced" with string ("harnessed") inside the cabinet.  These can tolerate quite a lot flexing before breakage occurs, usually at a terminal end.  I don't think you need to be concerned about wire breakage with this phone.  AFAIK sources for authentic looking wire don't exist except for salvage from unrepairable damaged ones.

Since the leads from the front of the cabinet through the arm to the transmitter are intended to be flexed in normal use for either kind of wiring they are almost certainly always stranded, even in solid back phones which otherwise use solid wire.  So you almost certainly do not have to worry about breakage of these leads nor probably any of the others in this harness wired phone.

I won't say "never" since that's just an invitation to be proven wrong, but I don't recall ever seeing steel screws at the edge of the transmitter faceplate.  Most transmitters use #2-56 screws but Western Electric used a non-standard diameter slightly larger than #2 and smaller than #3 but with 56 threads per inch.  #2-56 screws will thread in without damage but if over-tightened can strip due to limited thread engagement between the screw and the hole. 

I tell you all this because I don't know what Federal used so that you can proceed with caution, minimize risk of breakage and if screws get damaged know what to do.  Test the screws first with a magnet to determine whether they are steel or brass so you know how much torque is prudent.  The cup and perhaps even the transmitter faceplate may be steel.  If so this could confuse attempts to determine the screw material.

[xtal_01]

This will be a good job for tonight.

It is  hard to tell on most wires but the two that are going to the screw terminals (that I "think " should go to the battery) are solid single strand wires ... very thin but relatively flexible.

I double checked .... the screws are definitely steel (stick to a magnet).  They measure .085 diameter and look like about 5.5 threads in .1 inch ... so it is a #2-56 screw.

I might be able to just pull the 4 screws out of the transmitter mount and carefully rotate it 180 degrees.

Funny, how it is upside down.  Wonder if it was mounted high and this is just how it was put on years ago.  Doesn't look like it has ever been moved.

Just FYI .... nothing is marked!  No dates, manufacturers names, copyright marks or dates, ..... Not even on the receiver.

Would Federal have made all their own parts or would they have purchase these and been more of an assembly operation?

The only sign that someone has done anything to it is two old nails pushed on the side of the inside shelf to hold it in place ... I can see it is loose and these must have been wedged in to hold the mag solid when you crank it.

Here are a few pictures of the transmitter.

Thanks .... Mike

[HarrySmith]

What is the second picture, marked 11?
The clapper covers show up on eBay from time to time or someone here may have one in a parts pile. I will check my parts this weekend but I don't have a lot of stuff for wood phones. Welcome to the forum and good luck with this project.

[xtal_01]

11 just shows the screw sticking to a magnet (just had one close on the back of an LED light).

Thanks ..... Mike

[Alex G. Bell]

It is  hard to tell on most wires but the two that are going to the screw terminals (that I "think " should go to the battery) are solid single strand wires ... very thin but relatively flexible.

If you're referring to the 2 connected to the outer of the 3 terminals on the edge of the magneto shelf, they do look solid in the photo.  It's puzzling however that there would be two "fly wires" coming out of the harness connected to the two terminals.  It's odd that there are 3 terminals. 

The one on the right seems to be going off towards the transmitter and might well be a battery lead but if so, what purpose the terminals?

I think you need to find or dope out a a wiring diagram for this phone because this wiring arrangement is odd and seems illogical in itself in addition to the fact that the leads which are most likely to experience flexing over the life of the phone are the transmitter and battery leads, so solid wire would be a poor choice in addition to the presence of the terminals and the way they're connected to them.

If you have a DMM and do not find a diagram on line you should insert strips of thin plastic cut from disposable packaging into the normally closed magneto contacts to keep them isolated and use wire colors and continuity tests to deduce and document the wiring.

I double checked .... the screws are definitely steel (stick to a magnet).  They measure .085 diameter and look like about 5.5 threads in .1 inch ... so it is a #2-56 screw.

Sounds right.  Unusual material but no doubt right.  Considering the number of brass screws which break, a better choice despite the rust, assuming the face plate is brass.

I might be able to just pull the 4 screws out of the transmitter mount and carefully rotate it 180 degrees.

Yes, I suppose that's possible too but all other things being equal I usually prefer to leave wood screws in place and work with machine screws. 

If the wood screws come out easily but not too easily that might be a better choice unless the bracket is asymmetrical and won't allow the arm to swing the same amount both up and down.  Some transmitter brackets have a specific top and bottom so the transmitter can be tipped up but not down.  If this is like that "all things are not equal", the bracket has a "bias" and either needs to be left as-is or needs to be flipped, depending.

Funny, how it is upside down.  Wonder if it was mounted high and this is just how it was put on years ago.  Doesn't look like it has ever been moved.

Difficult to say.  I've seen puzzling things like this before: backwards assembly with wires connected with soldered connections that need to be unsoldered to correct the backwards assembly.  Baffling.

But sold back transmitters typically operated best when vertical so there usually was a functional reason to limit the amount the transmitter could be tilted off vertical.

Just FYI .... nothing is marked!  No dates, manufacturers names, copyright marks or dates, ..... Not even on the receiver.

Would Federal have made all their own parts or would they have purchase these and been more of an assembly operation?

I'm not sure.  I think Federal specifically may well have done both.  Lack of dates however is not a bit surprising.

The only sign that someone has done anything to it is two old nails pushed on the side of the inside shelf to hold it in place ... I can see it is loose and these must have been wedged in to hold the mag solid when you crank it.

Here are a few pictures of the transmitter.

Thanks .... Mike

Yes, I see the rusty rim screws, no magnet test required!  And we both seem to own the same freebie Harbor Freight Tools LED light.  And ironically, I've been using mine to work on a friend's magneto phone too!

[HarrySmith]

In looking closely at the inside of the door it does not appear you have a lot of slack in the wires so if you are going to try flipping the mount be very careful not to pull it out too far. Also the 2 wires connected to the terminal on the shelf do not look like they belong there, I believe they would go to the batteries. Someone may have just put them there as a convienent holder.
Yes, I have one of the Harbor Freight lights also, it lives in my glovebox.

[Alex G. Bell]

On further inspection of the photos, I guess the 3 screw terminals must be the line and ground connections since I don't see any terminals for that elsewhere.  It seems like an odd place for them though.

[TelePlay]

Clapper covers come in two general types, one screw mount and two screw mount (shown below).

You said you have two screw holes.

I do not know what the "exact" as built cover would have looked like for your phone but it would be similar. Here are two links to eBay listings, others sources are out there and at varying prices.

     http://www.ebay.com/itm/WESTERN-ELECTRIC-TELEPHONE-RINGER-BOX-Clapper-Cover-/201990585870

     http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-wood-wall-telephone-ringer-box-magneto-Bell-clapper-cover-/200913232154

[HarrySmith]

On further inspection of the photos, I guess the 3 screw terminals must be the line and ground connections since I don't see any terminals for that elsewhere.  It seems like an odd place for them though.

I agree, that's why I suggested the wires for the batteries did not belong there. IIRC the terminals are usually mounted on the side.
Are there any holes on the inside sides of the case?