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1st buying/restoration job - 4 quick questions

Started by Slal, September 11, 2014, 08:55:19 PM

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Slal

Hi everyone,

Wish I could say these are mine, but a little out of my tax bracket.  ; )

Like to get them looking nice as possible but don't want to risk messing up someone elses property.  Both phones tested & work fine.

1.) Two examples of number cards are shown.  One or the other appropriate for time period? 

2.)  Phone on right:  safely remove what looks like discoloration to paint on bottom-- probably from HS cord.   Dish soap & rubbing alcohol didn't work. 

3.) For fidelity: "De-Oxit" on terminals safe & improve comm, or don't use on telephones?

4.) Coverings on ringer coils:  Cleaned with denatured alcohol.  Coils I've seen in photo galleries look as if clear silvery wrapping has been redone or heat-shrinked.  Can see windings perfectly. 

Amazing work.  How do you do that! ; )

thx

--Bruce

PS:  The line cord on phone on left = handset cord being used for testing.  'Proper' cord on order.

Greg G.

#1
Personally I think that style of dial card looks a little out of place on 500 sets.  My memory of home phones starts with 500 sets in the late 50s, and I don't recall seeing that style of dial card.  I only remember that it was an EXCHANGE followed by 5 digits, sometimes preceded by an area code.  Depends on what your customer wants.  If they like them, fine. 

I also wouldn't fuss with the handset markings on the bottom, especially since you tried dish soap and alcohol, they don't look that bad.  You could try using flat black paint, but then the fresh paint touch up would stand out.
The idea that a four-year degree is the only path to worthwhile knowledge is insane.
- Mike Row
e

TelePlay

#2
This is a good source, one of several, for number card examples.

You may want to carefully try a little brasso with a soft cloth on the bottom marks. Doug Rose uses brasso on metal 302s and from what he has posted, it works well. If it removes the marks and looks good, you could then do the whole bottom to make it look even. If you decide to try that, let us know how it works.

Kenton K

Brasso will make the paint glossy, in my experience. maybe try it on the inside first, under the ringer, to see if it works OK.

-Ken

Slal

Agree about number cards.  Look better with just a blank "area code", but one phone is going into a law office where appearances count.

Would alphanumeric have been used in mid 50's?

Make his day if somehow work in his alma mater (Ole Miss) onto number card.  Thinking something along the lines of his graduation date or when phone was made.  Example:

OLmiss 8-
1956

Brasso a good idea.  Based on Ken's cautionary note though, tried a little Ajax on small area.  Didn't work, but jewelers loupe revealed marks are *into* the paint not on top.  Least I can say, "gave it the ol' college try."

Assume De-Oxit not recommended unless hear otherwise.

Meanwhile still interested in coil.  Here's link to what would *really* make them look nice.  (photos 3 & 4.)


http://www.vintagerotaryphones.com/cleaning-western-electric-ringers-be-careful/


Is shielding around windings tight in first place or is there a trick to this?  Functionally no evidence cleaning the outside made any difference in terms of resistance.

thx

--Bruce

TelePlay

#5
Quote from: Kenton K on September 12, 2014, 10:56:27 AM
Brasso will make the paint glossy, in my experience. maybe try it on the inside first, under the ringer, to see if it works OK.

-Ken

That's true. Doug uses it on black painted metal 302s to get them clean and glossy. How about tooth paste?

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=537.msg5741#msg5741

Matilo Telephones

I use Brasso too. And a polishing agent called Commandant no 4. Don´t know if that is available in the USA.

They have a special version for paints.

The marks on the bottom are caused by plasticizer agents from the handset cord. The effect is not only on but more in the paint. All the way through. You can maybe polish some of it out, but not all.

Often the paint is deformed and you can fell lumps and bumps where the marks are. I have never succeded in removing such marks completely.

Groeten,

Arwin

Check out my telephone website: http://www.matilo.eu/?lang=en

And I am on facebook too: www.facebook.com/matilosvintagetelephones

Sargeguy

#7
Those types of dial card were used on 500 sets, but they do look dated and they look like repros to the experienced collector.   Here are a few styles of dial card that used the area code prefix:
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
TCI /ATCA #4409

Slal

Quote from: Matilo Telephones on September 13, 2014, 03:19:00 AM
The marks on the bottom are caused by plasticizer agents from the handset cord. The effect is not only on but more in the paint. All the way through. You can maybe polish some of it out, but not all.

Often the paint is deformed and you can fell lumps and bumps where the marks are. I have never succeded in removing such marks completely.

Yes, that seems to be the case here.  Jewelers loupe reveals marks are eaten *into* the paint so nothing I can do about that.

Thanks for examples of number cards.  Believe it or not, this was the most challenging-- perhaps because of the color.

First idea (two styles of Ole Miss logos) looked tacky.  Black WE styles didn't look good on Med. Blue-- even when printed on brown colored stationary.  Tried the red "wait" on some ivory colored stationary-- still didn't look quite right-- red a bit distracting.  Probably go with NAme # in bold and put 4 digit 'year' below it.   

So they're just about ready to go.

Final repeat of question about shielding material around coil wrappings that may have been overlooked, or no answer to it.

Don't know what the material is, and can't risk getting out heat gun to 'experiment' on either of these.  They're also marked in vermilion paint & can't risk deforming or 'messing up' this number.

Is there a way to safely shrink or tighten the clear silvery shielding around C4A coil wrappings?

Detail work (being able to see the wires) looks terrific, but maybe shielding has to be tight in first place? 

Any ideas?

thx

--Bruce

poplar1

The black and white cards would have required a paper mask that matched the phone color for other-than-black phones. By December, 1956, "A station number card of neutral gray color is available to replace the various colored masks formerly used on color sets. The new card is furnished with 2-line (E-4203) or 3-line (E-4204) spacing1."

The first one in the 4th row (Klondike 5-1234) in Sargeguy's chart, printed on gray card stock, might be a good choice. In Southern Bell territory, the black and white cards for all phones were discontinued by April, 19572. The #6923 gray cards were the new standard. The number cards did not have an area code here in 1957, because DDD (Direct Distance Dialing) had not yet been introduced in this area.

1-Bell System Practices, Station Installation and Maintenance, Section C37.311, Issue 7, Dec. 1956, AT&T Standard
2-Bell System Practices, Station Installation and Maintenance, Section C37.901.1, Issue E, April 1957, SBT&T Standard
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

HarrySmith

Welcome! Looks like a nice resto job so far!
I would not worry about the wrapping of the ringer coils, anything you do to them will most likely do more damage than good as the material is over 60 years old and probably very brittle. While it is sitting on a desk or being used nobody will see them anyway!
Not sure what De-Oxit is but I do not think it is necessary, I usually just wipe them off with alcohol, they are usually OK to start with. If they are corroded I use a wire wheel on my Dremel, at slow speed to remove it, in that situation something to prevent return of the corrosion would be advisable. From the pictures I do not see any corrosion that would require that.
Harry Smith
ATCA 4434
TCI

"There is no try,
there is only
do or do not"

TelePlay

Quote from: HarrySmith on September 13, 2014, 08:43:15 PM
Not sure what De-Oxit is . . .

I think it's equivalent to the Radio Shack contact cleaner, the RS stuff that does not come with lubricant. I never used De-Oxit but the RS stuff works good, as mentioned several times on the forum.

http://www.amazon.com/CAIG-DeOxit-Cleaning-Solution-Spray/dp/B0002BBV4G

Slal

Quote from: HarrySmith on September 13, 2014, 08:43:15 PM
Welcome! Looks like a nice resto job so far!
I would not worry about the wrapping of the ringer coils, anything you do to them will most likely do more damage than good as the material is over 60 years old and probably very brittle. While it is sitting on a desk or being used nobody will see them anyway!

Thanks.  Gather you've done this kind of thing before?  ; )

Gave them their phones today. 

Opened it up and as you predicted.  Got an "Atta Boy" slap on the back from him and, (in a wonderfully genteel South Carolina accent) "Well my goodness...  You even shined the bells."

And that was about it.

"OLMiss X xxxx" on dial cards didn't seem to make an impression one way or the other.

Think they were happy just to get a couple of "Classic" phones as he likes to call them.  Spent a pleasant afternoon visiting & that's a wrap.

Thanks for replies, sample cards and a specific info about number cards.

--Bruce

poplar1

#13
 Found an earlier reference to the gray number cards in Dec. 1953, which was the year color 500s were first manufactured.

6. STATION NUMBER CARDS
    6.01  A station number card of neutral gray color, E4203
            (2 line) or E4204 (3 line) is used on all color sets.

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3530-c30-011-i6-dec53-colored-station-sets

However, the addendum C30.011, Issue A, issued 5/31/54 by New York Telephone, says the gray cards were still "pending availability" at that time. It includes a list of color masks to be used with the standard (black and white) cards until the new gray cards were ready. For the colored 500 sets, the following masks could be used:

Set Color:       Set Color Code:     Mask Code:        Mask Color:
Ivory                 (-50)                 E-2954-4            Ivory
Green                (-51)                 E-2954-19          Gray-Green
Gray                  (-52)                 Not required            --
Red                   (-53)                 Not required            --
Brown                (-54)                E-2954-11          Gold
Beige                 (-55)                E-2954-16          Old Rose
Yellow                (-56)                Not required           --
Blue                   (-57)                Not required           --
Ivory (two-tone) (-50A)              Not required           --
Green (two-tone)(-51A)              Not required           --
Gray (two-tone)  (-52A)              Not required           --
Red (two-tone)   (-53A)              Not required           --


Note that the color codes for the masks are the 302 color codes, and not the 500 color codes. Also, since this addendum was issued by NY Tel, and not by AT&T, it may have applied only to that region. Still, it does appear that colored masks were being phased out by the time color 500s were manufactured.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Slal

Quote from: poplar1 on September 13, 2014, 04:52:48 PM
1-Bell System Practices, Station Installation and Maintenance, Section C37.311, Issue 7, Dec. 1956, AT&T Standard
2-Bell System Practices, Station Installation and Maintenance, Section C37.901.1, Issue E, April 1957, SBT&T Standard

Thanks for info. and link to additional 1953 doc.

If mind my asking, where did you find those two from the 50's? 

A search on web & at TCI didn't come up with anything from that time frame.

thx

--Bruce