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Are princess secretarial sets rare?

Started by WesternElectricBen, December 07, 2013, 11:36:43 PM

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WesternElectricBen

Hi,

I was wondering, are princess secretarial sets rare? How much would you pay for a hardwired rotary one?

What I mean, is multiline switch and exclusion plunger.

Thanks,
Ben

paul-f

A Secretarial Princess set should be marked with a BC extension on the model number.

They are not common, but I don't know many collectors that would pay a premium for one.  There may be some out there somewhere.

It would be great if you can post photos.
Visit: paul-f.com         WE  500  Design_Line

.

G-Man

Quote from: WesternElectricBen on December 07, 2013, 11:36:43 PM
Hi,

I was wondering, are princess secretarial sets rare? How much would you pay for a hardwired rotary one?

What I mean, is multiline switch and exclusion plunger.

Thanks,
Ben


I don't recall hearing of a "princess secretarial set."

Please enlighten us as to who the manufacturer was.

Thanks




WesternElectricBen

Like the trimline on, for example Western Electric.

Or, maybe I incorrectly identified it.

Ben

G-Man

The only Princess™ telephone that I am acquainted with was manufactured and trademarked by Western Electric. Automatic Electric used Starlite, Stromberg Carlson Petite for their compact desk telephones.

Other than a two-line adaptation, I don't recall ever seeing a production multi-line version.
Also, I don't know what "secretarial" is describing, by any chance are you referring to the optional exclusion feature?

Here is a Bell Labs announcement regarding the introduction of the 700-series instruments.

New Telephone Design
To Be Produced in 1959

A new, small-size telephone,
similar to the one shown below,
will go into production next year.
G. A. Wahl, Station Apparatus
Engineer at Bell Laboratories,
was responsible for the preliminary
design of the set.

A design suitable for large
quantity production is currently
being prepared, following the
completion of a market test of
600 of the new telephones in Illinois
and Pennsylvania. Design
for production is under the direction
of L. J. Cobb at the Indianapolis,
Indiana, location of the Laboratories.

The new set will be offered in several colors,
and later, in two models. The first model
will feature a combined night-light and a
dial-light. The second model will
have, in addition, a two-line pickup
(with a "hold" button for the
first line) and provision for use with
home intercommunication
and speakerphone systems.

About 150,000 of the new telephones
will be available by the
end of 1959, and much greater
quantities will be manufactured
starting in 1960.

TelePlay

#5
As an FYI, paul-f's site shows the Princess 712B, 712BC and 713B at

http://www.paul-f.com/wePrincess.html

Scroll down about 1/3 of the page. The BC, as noted above, is the Secretarial version. They all look alike, don't they?

G-Man

I saw Paul's page listing it as a "Secretarial" set but I have never seen the term used to describe this model in any Bell documentation.

I would be interested in seeing the relevant BSP since I may be wrong and a Bell System Practice may exist describing it as such but our ordering forms only described them as having an exclusion feature.

A secretarial use would have been only one application of several others that this instrument was intended to be used for, but perhaps in some parts of the country this vernacular was used to describe it.


Quote from: TelePlay on December 08, 2013, 02:00:06 AM
As an FYI, paul-f's site shows the Princess 712B, 712BC and 713B at

http://www.paul-f.com/wePrincess.html

Scroll down about 1/3 of the page. The BC, as noted above, is the Secretarial version. They all look alike, don't they?


G-Man

I have located a BSP for the 712B Princess™ showing wiring options for 8 different applications including one for line exclusion (secretarial service). However I have so far been unable to find any Bell System Practices for a 712BC dedicated exclusively for secretarial service.

poplar1

#8
"Secretarial" as used by the Bell System refers to lines multipled to a business (or residence) and to an answering bureau (answering service). On a 557B switchboard, the attendant can answer these lines, but cannot draw dial tone or originate outgoing calls.

2-line sets--not just 2-line Princess sets--were frequently used in apartment buildings in Washington, D.C. and other areas. The phone had one outside line (dial) and one internal line (manual). The manual line was from a cord switchboard (554 PBX?) in the lobby. The manual line was used, for example, to announce a guest. The outside line would normally ring in the apartment, but also appeared on the switchboard as a secretarial line so that the attendant could answer the line when the resident was absent. So each apartment had 2 appearances on the cord board: the manual line and a multiple of the outside line.

"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Sargeguy

#9
Princess variants can sometimes command a premium, but in my experience there is not as great of a price difference between a rare "Princess" and a common one than there is with the 500 series.   The interesting Princesses do not get as much interest, or as much competition.  I haven't been paying too much attention lately but I'd be surprised to see any Princess fetch much more than $200.
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
TCI /ATCA #4409

paul-f

Secretarial sets used the turn key to switch a line to an answering service when the user was leaving their office or apartment.  Several former C&P employees reported they had heavy use in large apartment building in the Washington, DC area.  The service operator would answer your calls and take messages while you were out or didn't want to be interrupted by incoming calls.

There has been much discussion of them on the club lists over the years.

Some found sets are shown here:

  http://www.paul-f.com/we512.htm

There is a BSP reference to the 412BC in 502-430-100.  I also have a panel set marked 751C 2-66 Mod E2012S Fig 5 B/C.

So, the system was probably in use from the mid 50s to the early 70s.

My guess is that sets were created by modification as needed in the distribution houses, so they won't usually appear in BSPs.  There should be other documentation, such as E-series drawings.  Found sets usually have the BC or modification info added or painted over the original markings.

Here's a photo of the bottom of a Princess secretarial set 712BC marking that was sent to me.

Several club members planned to research and write up the system, but I haven't heard of any progress lately.  This is a good research topic.  Any info is welcome.
Visit: paul-f.com         WE  500  Design_Line

.

WesternElectricBen

That is cool that they were used as an "apartment phone" as well as a regular line. Though, if it was used in that case, why would then need the privacy switch?

Or, it could be, one main line, and this phone was used in a daughters room etc as "her line."

Sorry, I went to sleep and saw too many posts to reply.

Though, I did start this because I will hopefully win one like in the picture.

Ben

poplar1

#12
Ben, the 712BC for secretarial service does not have hold or exclusion. (It has two clear plungers.)The yellow phone in your picture is a 713B.

711Bs use the left plunger for excluding other stations. Also, they were sometimes modified for Home Interphone Service, where the left plunger was lifted to put the outside line on hold before switching to the interphone by turning the line key.

More often, 711Bs and 713Bs were used just for 2 outside lines. Illinois Bell and perhaps other Bell companies promoted family plans with 2 lines. The monthly charge for a second line in Chicago was not high but there was a charge for each call.  Originally, this package offered hold on only one line, but later that could be upgraded to hold on both lines.

I think WE phones crudely just put a short on the held line, but SC and ITT made 2-line phones with holding bridges (resistors) that would keep the line off-hook. While a holding bridge would decrease the volume on another phone that attempted to enter that line, a short would of course make it impossible for another user to hear or talk.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

#13
Quote from: paul-f on December 08, 2013, 12:46:45 PM
Secretarial sets used the turn key to switch a line to an answering service when the user was leaving their office or apartment.  Several former C&P employees reported they had heavy use in large apartment building in the Washington, DC area.  The service operator would answer your calls and take messages while you were out or didn't want to be interrupted by incoming calls.

There has been much discussion of them on the club lists over the years.

Some found sets are shown here:

 http://www.paul-f.com/we512.htm

There is a BSP reference to the 412BC in 502-430-100.  I also have a panel set marked 751C 2-66 Mod E2012S Fig 5 B/C.

So, the system was probably in use from the mid 50s to the early 70s.

My guess is that sets were created by modification as needed in the distribution houses, so they won't usually appear in BSPs.  There should be other documentation, such as E-series drawings.  Found sets usually have the BC or modification info added or painted over the original markings.

Here's a photo of the bottom of a Princess secretarial set 712BC marking that was sent to me.

Several club members planned to research and write up the system, but I haven't heard of any progress lately.  This is a good research topic.  Any info is welcome.

Paul, the BC sets that I'm referring to have two lines--outside line and a manual line off the PBX. The switchboard is a combination secretarial/manual unit with one red lamp and one white lamp for each apartment. The reason for 2 ringers in the 512BC set is that there are 2 lines. See John's post on TCI listserv:

Re: [TCI] What's a Princess 712BC?

(27097)


Feb 11, 2004

I believe the BC is that secretarial version. If the plastic is buffed
and polished, the stick on label is probably gone, and the secretarial
phones didn't have a hold function.
Certainly the case with the 512BC and the TT versions.
The turnkey circuit is rewired or modified to connect a third pair(
really the second pair ) to line one when the phone is switched to line
two ( the manual PBX line ) the user then leaves the phone in this mode,
and the secretarial cordboard can answer line one, and communicate if
necessary to the user over line two. These were almost always installed
with a second ringer, usually E1, and usually for the manual PBX line.


John Novack

Paul F wrote:


>Anyone know what makes a 712BC different from a 712B?
>
>Is there a BSP that covers this variation?
>
>You can see one at:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=2223236633
>
>This one was apparently converted to a BC and remarked. It's missing the plunger for the hold feature, but the case was "buffed and
>polished," so other changes could have been made.
>
>Paul Fassbender







"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

WesternElectricBen

Thank you Poplar1 for your information!

Hope I win the 713..

Ben