WE 51AL and 554C Dual Capacitor Subset Not Working

[gands-antiques]

This post is a follow-up to a previous post about the same candlestick and subset...
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=22934.0
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I still haven't been able to get the 51AL and 554C subset working.

Current situation....

With the 3 mounting cord wires (yellow, green and red) connected to L2/Y, GN and R, I connected the black ringer wire to "L1" and the red ringer wire to "R" and the ringer doesn't ring. I swapped the red and black ringer wires and the ringer still doesn't ring.

Next, with the yellow wire disconnected, if I connect the black ringer wire to L1 and the red ringer wire to either subset "C" or "GN", the ringer works but none of the phone functions work.

As soon as the yellow mounting cord wire is connected to subset L2/Y, the ringing stops working.

All the phone functions work if the 3 mounting cord wires ARE CONNECTED and the ringer red ringer wire IS NOT connected to anything. 

* I checked all of the 51AL wiring and the wiring is correct and there are no shorts with any wires.

Any help will sure be appreciated.

Thanks,
Gary

[RB]

Hi Gary.
Head scratcher for sure.
Do you have a volt meter?
Select RESISTANCE.
With everything connected, measure across L1 and L2- shud be between 500, and 1K ohm
Lift the hook, and observe the resistance.- shud be a few hundred ohms
Hang up, and compare again.
Next, with it on hook, move dial off rest, and observe.
Then, with it off hook, move dial off rest and observe.
Your phone may have a switch not workin right, or maybe the condenser is not working any more,
and allowing too much resistance on the line, and killing the ringer?
just a guess

[Jim Stettler]

This post is a follow-up to a previous post about the same candlestick and subset...
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=22934.0
----------------------------------------------


* I checked all of the 51AL wiring and the wiring is correct and there are no shorts with any wires.

Thanks,
Gary

Did you check for opens? You can check each conductor for continuity.

Jim

[gands-antiques]

Thanks a lot Jim....

I am going out for awhile but I'll try the checks you described when I get back.

A little more information....when I connect the phone and subset to my RS tester, and when I lift the receiver the dial dials the correct numbers,  the receiver tone is heard through the receiver and the transmitter light lights up when I tap on the mouth piece.

The whole problem is with the ringer.

In my previous post (August) I had a different set of ringer coils (500 & 500) because a friend told me they were for 4 wire anti-sidetone. The friend told me the ringer coils (500 & 500/3000) were for a 3 wire sidetone subset so I swapped the coils but I am getting the same results with both sets of coils. 

Thanks again....I'll let you know how the multi-meter checks go.


Thanks,
Gary

[Jim Stettler]

Thanks a lot Jim....

I am going out for awhile but I'll try the checks you described when I get back.

A little more information....when I connect the phone and subset to my RS tester, and when I lift the receiver the dial dials the correct numbers,  the receiver tone is heard through the receiver and the transmitter light lights up when I tap on the mouth piece.

The whole problem is with the ringer.

In my previous post (August) I had a different set of ringer coils (500 & 500) because a friend told me they were for 4 wire anti-sidetone. The friend told me the ringer coils (500 & 500/3000) were for a 3 wire sidetone subset so I swapped the coils but I am getting the same results with both sets of coils. 

Thanks again....I'll let you know how the multi-meter checks go.


Thanks,
Gary

If it dials you don't have opens.
Jim

[gands-antiques]

Okay, with my analog multi-meter set on 1x resistance.... results in bold letters below

With everything connected, measure across L1 and L2- shud be between 500, and 1K ohm-Actual 14 ohms
Lift the hook, and observe the resistance.- shud be a few hundred ohms: Actual 14 ohms (No Change)
Hang up, and compare again:   Actual 14 ohms (No Change)
Next, with it on hook, move dial off rest, and observe.Actual 14 ohms (No Change)
Then, with it off hook, move dial off rest and observe: Actual 8 ohms
Your phone may have a switch not working right, or maybe the condenser is not working any more,
and allowing too much resistance on the line, and killing the ringer?
====================
I slid the rack out of the desk stand and at first there was a constant busy signal heard in the receiver. I cleaned the contacts with some card stock and then I got a dial tone and dialed out successfully to another phone.  Now it has a constant busy signal again.  I still haven't been able to test the ringers with an incoming call.

* Pictures of rack below...

Gary

[Jack Ryan]

With everything connected, measure across L1 and L2- shud be between 500, and 1K ohm-Actual 14 ohms

With the receiver on hook, the resistance between L1 and L2 should be much more than 500~1000 ohms. There is, in fact, no DC path so the resistance should be very high.

In my experience when debugging, you should stop when a significant problem is found - you found one, so stop.

There should only be the bell in series with a capacitor across the line when on hook. Disconnect the bell and see if there is an improvement.

I can't see a buffer on the switch hook to operate the hook switch springs. That normally won't stop a phone from working but it will make the phone live. Is it there?

By the way, resistance measurements through a carbon transmitter are not very consistent - tap the transmitter and try to get a consistent reading. Also, the transmitter is position dependent - if you lie it on its back it will probably go open circuit. Keep it in its normal position.

Have you got a circuit? Perhaps post it for reference as not all of us speak US WE colours.

Regards
Jack

[gands-antiques]

Thanks Jack for the information..

With the receiver on hook, the resistance between L1 and L2 should be much more than 500~1000 ohms. There is, in fact, no DC path so the resistance should be very high. If I set my multi-meter on RX1, I get 14 ohms.  If I set the meter to RX10, RX100 or RX1K the needle pegs past the number "0" on the right side of the meter dial.   Am I doing something wrong? Where should I have the meter set?   

In my experience when debugging, you should stop when a significant problem is found - you found one, so stop.

There should only be the bell in series with a capacitor across the line when on hook. Disconnect the bell and see if there is an improvement. I will try to determine this connection tomorrow.

I can't see a buffer on the switch hook to operate the hook switch springs. That normally won't stop a phone from working but it will make the phone live. Is it there? I don't know what a buffer on the hook switch is. All I see is the switch contacts/springs against the hook arm. Is something supposed to be in that location/area?

By the way, resistance measurements through a carbon transmitter are not very consistent - tap the transmitter and try to get a consistent reading. Also, the transmitter is position dependent - if you lie it on its back it will probably go open circuit. Keep it in its normal position.

Have you got a circuit? Perhaps post it for reference as not all of us speak US WE colours.
I'm not sure what you mean by circuit. If it's a wiring diagram I just posted it.

[Jack Ryan]

If I set my multi-meter on RX1, I get 14 ohms.  If I set the meter to RX10, RX100 or RX1K the needle pegs past the number "0" on the right side of the meter dial.   Am I doing something wrong? Where should I have the meter set?

The different resistance ranges just change the sensitivity of the meter. On X1, full scale is a couple of k ohms - on X10, full scale is 10 times that or about 20 k ohms. Each time you change the range, you should calibrate.
1. Set to (say) X1
2. Connects the probe tips together (zero resistance)
3. Adjust the "ohms adjust" knob to read zero ohms (on the full scale/right side of the meter)
Now ready to measure low resistance

If you are measuring a low resistance like 14 ohms and you change to a higher range, the needle will get closer to zero.

I don't know what a buffer on the hook switch is. All I see is the switch contacts/springs against the hook arm. Is something supposed to be in that location/area?

There should be something insulating between the switch hook and the contact springs - a buffer - a piece of hard rubber or similar.

I'm not sure what you mean by circuit. If it's a wiring diagram I just posted it.

A wiring diagram is a simplified schematic (circuit diagram). What you posted is a wiring diagram that is meant to help with physical placement and wiring. It is sufficient here.

Jack

[RB]

You are measuring correctly.
The results you are seeing, are approaching "0" resistance, or a near short.
That's why you are loosing the bell when you connect it all together.
Maybe chk those switches again?
Also, dis connect one wire from bell, and measure both coils.

[gands-antiques]

I checked the resistance between the two ringer wires when they are not connected to the subset and the needle didn't move.  I guess that is called an open circuit. Should the meter needle not move when checking a ringer assembly? 
----------------------------
I have restored a half dozen candlesticks with subsets and I've never seen any insulating material between the hook and the contact spring but I'll be glad to add a layer of electrical tape to the hook contact point if that would help.

* I wired in  another ringer and got the same results....the only way I can get any ringer to ring is to disconnect the Yellow mounting cord wire. I don't know why disconnecting the Yellow wire allows the ringer to ring.

Of course, when the yellow wire is disconnected from the subset, none of the functions of the phone work.

I still need to try the ringer connections directly to the capacitor(s) terminals as someone suggested.

Thanks,
Gary

[Jack Ryan]

I connected the black ringer wire to "L1" and the red ringer wire to "R" and the ringer doesn't ring.

Sorry, I didn't go back far enough.

The red ringer wire connects to RR, not R and then returns to L2 via the capacitor.

Was that a typo or the cause of the problem?

Jack

[Jack Ryan]

I have restored a half dozen candlesticks with subsets and I've never seen any insulating material between the hook and the contact spring but I'll be glad to add a layer of electrical tape to the hook contact point if that would help.

There is generally an insulating buffer between the hook actuator and the switch spring. If not there, the phone is electrically connected to the line and is a shock hazard. I don't think it affects the current issue.

Jack

[RB]

I checked the resistance between the two ringer wires when they are not connected to the subset and the needle didn't move.  I guess that is called an open circuit. Should the meter needle not move when checking a ringer assembly?  Yes, it should, try a higher setting.
----------------------------
I have restored a half dozen candlesticks with subsets and I've never seen any insulating material between the hook and the contact spring but I'll be glad to add a layer of electrical tape to the hook contact point if that would help. Wont help, just keeps you from getting a magneto "kiss", if someone cranks the generator.

* I wired in  another ringer and got the same results....the only way I can get any ringer to ring is to disconnect the Yellow mounting cord wire. I don't know why disconnecting the Yellow wire allows the ringer to ring. I think the problem is in your phone wiring/connections. it seems to be the determining factor in success vs. failier of the bells.

Of course, when the yellow wire is disconnected from the subset, none of the functions of the phone work.

I still need to try the ringer connections directly to the capacitor(s) terminals as someone suggested.

Thanks,
Gary

[gands-antiques]

Jack,

You are my savior.  I have been messing with this phone for several months and all it needed was one of the little insulator buttons.  I have several spare hooks and one of them had one of the insulator buttons like the one in your picture and I put it on the hook and now everything is working perfectly. 

I don't know how I built the previous candlesticks but I will sure use an insulator button in the future.

I really appreciate all of your help and the help from the other members that contributed to getting my phone working.

Thanks a lot!!

Gary