GPO Candlestick Problem

[Phonesrfun]

I think that the rust colored insulator is not the problem.  The problem is that something is remaining closed, and the paper is holding that section of the switch open.  I rather think that it is part of a modification for the 685 subset, so I would not remove it.  The more likely thing at this point is that there are some wires touching that should not be.  Can you at least map out where the connectors to the two springs that are opening and closing actually are connected?

An alternative would be to have you box up the phone and send it here and I could look at it.  Other than that, all we can do is dig deeper.

-Bill

[Dan]

Leaf  switch  #1 wire coloured  green and yellow goes to the 425 E network at the spot labelled RR, while leaf switch #2 yellow in color goes to the block (aftermarket ) and  then continues s to F on the network (most likely) (another yellow wire goes to L2 , less likely the switch wire)

Does this help? You are going way overboard for me, I really APPRECIATE it!

[Phonesrfun]

Actually, this is telling me that the switches are indeed modified to be used on the 685.

I have a hunch and I need to look at the 685 schematic, but I am needing to sign off tonight.  I think we can get this done....

Let's continue tomorrow.

-Bill

[Dan]

Goodnight, I'll catch you tomorrow, and thanks

here's a schematic (with a 202 connected)

http://www.telephonecollectors.org/library/weco/202-685.pdf

[Stephen Furley]

Another important thing to know is the seller siad he had to jiggle the hookswitch sometimes, but it worked great .

I disagree that this is an important thing to know. If he had to 'jiggle the hookswitch' then it didn't work great, did it?  Was the seller telling the truth?  Were they somebody you know; would you consider them to be reliable?  Maybe they just decided to get rid of it because it wasn't reliable; maybe it was working for them, but in moving it to you something has moved, and is shorting out somewhere.  I don't like the look of that soldered joint; it looks like it could touch the metalwork when the 'phone is assembled.

Bingster, the seller said the phone was wired by a pretty reputable guy (even though it looks sloppy to me) . He sold me the phone cheap because he hated the weight and overall talking on it.

It looks sloppy to me as well.  I was going to say that you really needed to trace where all of the wires go, and draw up a new schematic to see how the circuit is actually connected, but I'm beginning to doubt that there's any point.  You can't tell anything from the colours of the wires, because they're new, and not the same colours as the originals.  Frankly, I think this looks like a badly done conversion, and I think you need to start again.

The 150 contains nothing other than the receiver, transmitter, hookswitch and, if fitted, dial.  Receivers and transmitters are pretty standard, even if they've been replaced by modern ones; the size and shape may change, but they each have just two wires to connect, and are electrically compatible.  The dial seems to be a number 10 slipping cam model, which would be correct for this 'phone, but was also used on later ones, such as my 232.  A switch is a switch; as long as it has enough n/o and n/c contacts, it should work.

I think the best option may be to strip all of the 'new' wiring (make a note of which wire goes where, in case you need to put it back) and start again.  The N250 diagram will tell you which terminals on the dial are the pulse and shunt contacts, the transmitter and receiver have only two terminals each, and it doesn't matter which way round they are connected.  By looking at the hookswitch you should be able to see which terminals open and close when the 'phone goes off-hook.

By using that subset you won't have a 150, you'll have a different 'phone, an anti-sidetone one, but this may be an advantage if you want to actually use it.  Using a diagram of a 202 circuit work out how and where to connect each component to the subset.  Check the hookswitch contacts, make sure that they all make/break when they should.  Connect it up neatly, insulate anything hat could possibly short out, secure the cords so that they're not pulling on the conductors.  I would fit new cords which look something like the original GPO ones, there's a seller on Ebay who sells reproduction ones, he's very helpful and should be able to provide you with suitable ones.

The only problem would be if there aren't enough contacts on the hookswitch for the anti-sidetone circuit.  If this were the case then there would seem to be four options:

1. Obtain a subset more like the original Bellset No. 1.

2. Try to modify the existing subset to convert it into a simple sidetone one.

3. Install an additional switch to provide the extra contacts; I have various switches designed for use in 700 series telephones, and it might be possible to install one of these and rig up a mechanism to operate it.

4. Install a small relay operated by the original hookswitch contacts.  I don't know if you could draw enough current from the line to operate this, if you could you'd probably need to fit a choke to block a.c. signals going through it, or if you'd need a battery.  Since you'd only be drawing current when the 'phone was off-hook, a battery should last quite a while.

If only one pair of switch contacts is being used at present then it sounds like the subset is not being used as it was intended to be.

Before you do anything I think you need to make a decision about what you want; do you want a telephone which provides good sound quality for actual use, or one which is as historically authentic as possible?  If the former then use the WE subset which you have.  If the latter then buy a GPO Bellset No.1; there have been several on Ebay recently, one seller said he had seven of them.  The Bakelite Bellset 25 could also be used, but not the identical-looking Bellset 26 as this does not contain the induction coil.

The Ebay seller who can provide the reproduction cords is called chipmunk_2004; he also provides the double diodes to connect across the receiver to reduce the loud 'clunks' in the earpiece.  I recommend fitting one of these.

There's one Bellset No.1 on Ebay at the moment, and at a good price if you look at what a complete 150/bellset combination sells for.  http://tinyurl.com/m2tsqz  ( dead link 06-28-21 )

It ends in a few hours, but there have been several others recently, some of which have not sold, so they may well be relisted, if you wanted to go that route.  The price is generally higher than the one that is there now however.

[Dan]

Thanks for your imput Stephen. If I have to go with a new subset, the auction you listed currently cost more for the subset than the entire telephone originally cost me.

Rewiring it may be the way ultimately to go, but it is way out of my league. Hopefully Bill has an idea, his last post was intriguing.....

[Stephen Furley]

Dan,

If you paid less than that for the 'phone and the subset then you got a very good deal, even if it does need a bit of work doing on it.

I know what you mean about the money; I've recently bought three 'phones that I've had to put on the credit card.  I shouldn't have done, but they were all at very good prices, which I'm not likely to see again.

I really would recommend a re-wire, and I'm sure there are plenty of people here who can help you.  I'm not familiar with the circuit of that subset, but I could probably work it out if I sat down with the diagrams.

In the meantime, try insulating that solder joint with a bit of tape, though some very small heat-shrink sleeve would be better for a long-term fix.  I can't tell if that wire is touching the metalwork of the 'phone, though it may well be.  If it is, then I don't know where that wire is going, or what else may be connected to the metalwork of the 'phone, so it's not possible to say what the effect would be if it was touching.  There's some rust there, which might result in an intermittant fault.

Remember the 'jiggle the hookswitch' thing; you shouldn't have to do that, something is not right, but it shouldn't be too difficult to fix.

You got a good deal with that 'phone.  Just keep any original parts that you remove, and you'll have the option in the future to frstore it to original condition if you want to, and you find a bellset at the right price.

[Dan]

Thanks, that's good advice. I bought the phone for $50;  it is quite elegant looking. I like it a lot better than a WE150 AL, for instance. The brass had a patina on it that was green, so I went ahead and polished it up (not as original now, but prettier to me). I will definately cover the exposed solder joint, which may hit the inside of the shaft and mess up the switch some how.

BUSY day for me. I'll be back tonight. Hopefully Bill will have some ideas later . Enjoy your Sunday

[Phonesrfun]

I see what Stephen is saying, but lets, for now go down the path we are on.

In the photo, we have been talking about the switch contact that is in the foreground.  Then there is the rust colored insulator, and then behind that is what appears to be a second set of contacts.  Are they, in fact contacts, and if so, where do they go?  Next will be to find out where the two wires from the dial pulse springs go.  If you cannot readily see which are the dial pulse springs, they are the ones that open and close for each digit dialed.  You can see a little rotating cam opening and closing the switch contact as it goes around.  Where do those two wires connect, and do they, in turn go to the subset?

-Bill

[Stephen Furley]

Dan,

The dial pulse contacts should be on terminals 4 and 5 on the dial.  It the dial is held looking at the back of it, with the finger stop at the bottom, and the terminals along the top these are the two rightmost ones.  It looks like these are the ones with the green/white and green/yellow wires in you photograph of the inside of the base.

Don't worry about polishing the brass making it non-original; the state that it was in when it came to you wasn't original either.  The brass parts on these 'phones were originally painted black.  I think you could reasonably have them either painted or polished, whichever way you prefer.  Paint has the disadvantage that it doesn't wear very well, at least not the paints available in those days.  I think the GPO realised this; the 150 was the last 'standard' phone to be painted; all of the later ones, the 162, the 200 series, the 300 series and the 700 series, including vatiations such as the Trimphone and the Compact Telephone which were based on the 746 were in self-coloured plastic.  I've seen photographs of these 'phones when they were still in use, where the brass is clearly polished.  I suspect that people polished it when the paint started to wear off.  Also, many of the 150s were built using parts recovered from withdrawn older models, and the GPO did a great deal of modification and refurbishment of recovered 'phones before they were re-issued, so it's probably debatable what should be considered original condition anyway.

[Dan]

Back from a BUSY day. The hook switch contacts are as follows. Top one as you look down on the picture is open  in the hang up position. When you lift off the receiver, the top contact is closed  enough to get a piece of thin paper between with slight resistance.( I would say closed) Next layer of contacts under these two is open in the hang up position and open in the position with the receiver off . (the rust paper insulator keeps then open @ all times).underneath this is another layer of contacts in the closed position with the receiver off and on.

The yellow wire off the top leaf switch (the one that is open in the hang up position, closed with receiver off goes to the aftermarket block and then F on the  425A network. The second leaf switch is soldered on under this and goes to the spot labelled RR on the 425A network.

[Dan]

Here's a picture of the dial . As you can see there are five screws on it with wires. One row of two on the left as you look @ the picture and one row of three from top to bottom on the right are present . It looks like the right row of three - bottom screw wire comes off the dial springs and goes to  GN  on the subset network (orange and red wire on picture). This switch opens up with dialing  lower numbers , and with  larger dialed  numbers like 9 or 0 you see top  right screw switch open up( This is the predominately green and slightly white wire). This wire goes to RR. Understand, the dial works perfectly as of now.

[Phonesrfun]

Dan:

I too am back from a busy day.  I am ready to go back to this, or maybe it would be a better more effective thing to do over the phone.  If so let me know when would be good for you.  Most any night except Tuesdays are good for me, including this evening and right now.  I can give you my phone number.  But, to get things started again, are you saing there only two wires going to the hookswitch?

-Bill

[Dan]

hello, yes there are only two. I replied to your PM

[Phonesrfun]

OK, so lets proceed.

We can use the phone as a last resort.

I have printed all the pictures you have sent.   The photos are very helpful, but what they don't always show exactly is where a wire starts and finishes.

Some questions.  First can you list the 8 wires by color and connection going to the subset?  Some are pretty hard to distinguish from the photo.  Also a wire that is mostly white with a blue stripe, the convention is to show it as Wht/Blu, with the major color listed first, a slash, then the minor color.  Abbreviate any way you want or spell it out.

What I have inferred from the photos is:

L1 - Blu/Red
L2 - ?
C - OR/Wht
R - Red/Blu
B - ?
GN - ?
F - ?
RR - ?

I know you have addressed F and RR as coming from the dial in your description, so I think one will be Wht/Grn, and the other will be Grn/Wht

More questions to come, but as I ask these, things will start to fill in.  Kind of like putting a puzzle together.

-Bill