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Anyone Experienced with the Dialor 1.2?

Started by MIPS, September 24, 2015, 10:48:18 AM

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unbeldi

#15
Thanks.

I got the transistors mostly right, except Q4 which is a PNP type.

I revised my opinion on the component to the right of the R3 label, now I think this may be a diode, or zener diode, but I don't know how it is connected.  One lead is on ground, but the other?  The only configuration I can think of right now is that it connects to the positive power trace somehow.  I think this would be necessary to limit any input voltages substantially above 5 Volts.    The second (positive) pole of the large electrolytic capacitors may be connected there too, to remove ripples from the supply voltage.  The three components are nicely lined up next to each other, and its the only place where I think they could be most useful.

Attached as PDF is the diagram as it stands now.  If you can fill in some of the question marks, that would be great.
Having resistor values isn't important right now, but for reference for future readers it would be great.

The capacitor values for C1 and C2 should be ca. 10 pF, and C3 looks to be 100 nF.

I would have guessed that the dial contacts would be reversed from what you have.  Does the unit produce tones the way you have it?   You could possibly check with a head set connected  .... but where?  on the emitter of Q1, or R2.   I still don't know how the DTMF tones get back into the circuit from there.  I can't see the trace.

I don't think metal film resistors use a different color code.

TelePlay

That does look like a diode symbol and names D7 on the board for that component.

I can make out D1, 2, 3 and 4 but D5 and D6 are not found.

unbeldi

Quote from: TelePlay on September 26, 2015, 09:48:18 PM
That does look like a diode symbol and names D7 on the board for that component.

I can make out D1, 2, 3 and 4 but D5 and D6 are not found.

Yes, this is also supported by the 1.05 board picture that DSK provided, where it is marked as D5.  I think here it may be DZ, perhaps for Zener?
From that 1.05 picture I can almost make out what is written on the large chip.

MIPS

#18
It's not D7. It's DZ. Part of the letter was hidden under the cap.
C1 and C2 are valued 16v 100Uf.

Let me see if I can answer the question marks and unknowns on the board you still have.

Your question marked pin 20 I believe is VDD. It runs to R3, DZ, C4 and D2. Also has a direct connection somehow to VDD on the 9200A.

C6 positive side travels to Q4 emitter, R6 and Q3 collector so long as this diagram is correct.

R1 on one side connects to Q1 collector and one side of C3. Other side travels to pin 7 on the 9200A and the other side of C3.

TelePlay

Not to sidetrack this discussion, but to add an interesting similar component, I found Dailor Ver 2.0.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/telephone-module-Pulse-transfer-dual-tone-multiple-frequency-DTMF-converter-/291527811650

As printed in English in the eBay listing, the Seller describes it as "Pulse transfer dual tone multiple frequency DTMF converter normal version The old dial telephone/pulse dual module. Dc voltage: 32 v, 48 v.Current: 20-40 ma. If you live in the city telephone line has not support dial-up telephone ,Install this module, you dial the phone (no matter which domestic old phone) you can on the telephone line normal use! But also increased the redial and allocated * # # function. DIALOR2.0 can make the old dial telephone to use circuit module;She would not be modern switches to identify the pulse signal can be converted to modern switches recognition of dual tone multiple frequency signal;This allows those who could only do decoration is the collection of telephone also can be used in daily life normal again; DIALOR2.0 enhanced version has a "redial" and "set aside" # "and" * ", such as function, makes the old telephone also can compare with modern telephone!"

Is this a Dialgizmo equivalent? Anyone able to read the ad dialect?

Too bad the didn't also show the component side of the board.

unbeldi

#20
Quote from: MIPS on September 26, 2015, 10:41:08 PM
It's not D7. It's DZ. Part of the letter was hidden under the cap.
good, it must be a 5.1 V Zener diode then.

Quote
C1 and C2 are valued 16v 100Uf.
100 µF is entirely unrealistic.  These caps are on the crystal oscillator and cannot be that large. They must be on the order of 10-20 pF.

Quote
Let me see if I can answer the question marks and unknowns on the board you still have.

Your question marked pin 20 I believe is VDD. It runs to R3, DZ, C4 and D2. Also has a direct connection somehow to VDD on the 9200A.
The question mark was actually for the trace on the component side that appears next to the chip, apparently running under the chip.

20 indeed is VDD, and yes it is also VDD on the DTMF generator chip.

Quote
C6 positive side travels to Q4 emitter, R6 and Q3 collector so long as this diagram is correct.
That diagram is not correct.  When looking at the flat side of the transistors, the pins from left to right as E, B, C,  which is a standard TO-92 package.  I have E, B, C indicated on my circuit board picture.

Quote
R1 on one side connects to Q1 collector and one side of C3. Other side travels to pin 7 on the 9200A and the other side of C3.
Yes, I have that in my diagram, but what you call collector is actually the base of Q1.
The emitter of Q1 goes to R2, does that connect anywhere else?   this point is the Q1-amplified DTMF signal.  I feel it should go somewhere else.

unbeldi

Quote from: TelePlay on September 26, 2015, 10:57:34 PM
Not to sidetrack this discussion, but to add an interesting similar component, I found Dailor Ver 2.0.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/telephone-module-Pulse-transfer-dual-tone-multiple-frequency-DTMF-converter-/291527811650

As printed in English in the eBay listing, the Seller describes it as "Pulse transfer dual tone multiple frequency DTMF converter normal version The old dial telephone/pulse dual module. Dc voltage: 32 v, 48 v.Current: 20-40 ma. If you live in the city telephone line has not support dial-up telephone ,Install this module, you dial the phone (no matter which domestic old phone) you can on the telephone line normal use! But also increased the redial and allocated * # # function. DIALOR2.0 can make the old dial telephone to use circuit module;She would not be modern switches to identify the pulse signal can be converted to modern switches recognition of dual tone multiple frequency signal;This allows those who could only do decoration is the collection of telephone also can be used in daily life normal again; DIALOR2.0 enhanced version has a "redial" and "set aside" # "and" * ", such as function, makes the old telephone also can compare with modern telephone!"

Is this a Dialgizmo equivalent? Anyone able to read the ad dialect?

Too bad the didn't also show the component side of the board.

This one is quite different, meant to be inserted in the line cord only, not wired to the dial.  The problem with a lot of those appears to be that they may have power problems on certain line and telephone combinations.  We discussed that in that thread (or another).
Let's not mix them up.

MIPS

#22
Quote100 µF is entirely unrealistic.  These caps are on the crystal oscillator and cannot be that large. They must be on the order of 10-20 pF.
D'oh! I meant C4 and C6.

QuoteThe question mark was actually for the trace on the component side that appears next to the chip, apparently running under the chip.
Oh. That runs from R9 to pin 1.

QuoteThat diagram is not correct.  When looking at the flat side of the transistors, the pins from left to right as E, B, C,  which is a standard TO-92 package.
Noted.

QuoteThe emitter of Q1 goes to R2, does that connect anywhere else?   this point is the Q1-amplified DTMF signal.  I feel it should go somewhere else.
Nope. Just to R2.

Also, in case we needed another random question answered (if not just so we can fill int he blanks on what kind of microcontroller that unmarked IC really is), pin 6 on the 9200A connects to pin 6 on our unmarked IC. Pin 1 on the 9200A connects to pin 9 on the unmarked IC. That giant blob of solder on the underside travels through a via and underneath the unmarked IC connects to pins 2 and 3.

QuoteNot to sidetrack this discussion, but to add an interesting similar component, I found Dailor Ver 2.0.
You can find those on aliexpress as well. I considered just buying one of those instead of this but they're twice the price and as mentioned, they are inline adapters. Not really what I was hoping to need.

unbeldi

#23
ok, that clears up several items.
Now I have left where pin 11 of the controller and R6 go.  P11 connects to R6 which connects to where?    Power perhaps?  A pull up resistor for a logic function?

I inserted both C4 and C6 in parallel on the power source after the Zener diode (DZ).  A total of 200 µF should be good for filtering and providing a stable supply.

Is R3 connected to anything else in addition to the collectors of Q2 and Q3?

Attached is the updated diagram. [Updated at head of thread.]

MIPS

QuoteNow I have left where pin 11 of the controller and R6 go.  P11 connects to R6 which connects to where?    Power perhaps?  A pull up resistor for a logic function?
Pin 11 connects to R6. The other side of R6 connects to the positive side of C6.

QuoteIs R3 connected to anything else in addition to the collectors of Q2 and Q3?
D2.

Actually here, I quickly put the board under a light and drew out all the traces in MS paint. I triple checked and I don't think I missed any.


unbeldi

Ok, thanks.  Now the circuit begins to make sense.

But I think you got the dial connected the wrong way.  Swap the D and P connections.

Will update soon...

MIPS

#26
Nope. I swapped the leads on the dial around and that did not work.

Okay, possibly unrelated...possibly related.
I hung my oscilloscope off the phone line while off hook. If there was a tone I should at least see it. I've accidentially now learned that my only set of probes are not isolated.  :(
The moment you clip the probe's ground to TIP (colored green in my photo above) you add in 60hz hum and the tone drops which is a bad thing as you've essentially grounded the line out if I've read up enough on the subject

but....

With another phone off the hook I can hear a strong touch tone dial when I use the dial but ONLY when Tip is grounded.

Again, probably not all that useful, but now at least I have an audible verification with a second device off hook that a good tone is being emitted under certain conditions.

EDITED:
Here's a video to demonstrate what I mean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkJmWph1Qyg

luns

Quote from: unbeldi on September 27, 2015, 09:59:52 AM
ok, that clears up several items.
Now I have left where pin 11 of the controller and R6 go.  P11 connects to R6 which connects to where?    Power perhaps?  A pull up resistor for a logic function?

I inserted both C4 and C6 in parallel on the power source after the Zener diode (DZ).  A total of 200 µF should be good for filtering and providing a stable supply.

Is R3 connected to anything else in addition to the collectors of Q2 and Q3?

Attached is the updated diagram.

A few tweaks to your schematic...

I think R3 is in series between the bridge rectifier and the zener diode. The darlington pair of Q2/Q3 have their collectors feeding the bridge side of R3.

I think Q4 has emitter/collector reversed; it's set up as an emitter follower pulling down the input to the darlington pair, and C6 is on this node too instead of parallel with C4. Base current for the darlington, when not shunted by Q4, is provided from R6.

Also, I suspect that D should be for the ON contact, while P is for DP rather than the other way around.

MIPS

I drew what I saw. There are a few issues with my alignment but I have not missed any traces. So you are saying components are reversed? I'm a little lost.

unbeldi

Quote from: luns on October 02, 2015, 12:37:21 AM
Quote from: unbeldi on September 27, 2015, 09:59:52 AM
ok, that clears up several items.
Now I have left where pin 11 of the controller and R6 go.  P11 connects to R6 which connects to where?    Power perhaps?  A pull up resistor for a logic function?

I inserted both C4 and C6 in parallel on the power source after the Zener diode (DZ).  A total of 200 µF should be good for filtering and providing a stable supply.

Is R3 connected to anything else in addition to the collectors of Q2 and Q3?

Attached is the updated diagram.

A few tweaks to your schematic...

I think R3 is in series between the bridge rectifier and the zener diode. The darlington pair of Q2/Q3 have their collectors feeding the bridge side of R3.

I think Q4 has emitter/collector reversed; it's set up as an emitter follower pulling down the input to the darlington pair, and C6 is on this node too instead of parallel with C4. Base current for the darlington, when not shunted by Q4, is provided from R6.

Also, I suspect that D should be for the ON contact, while P is for DP rather than the other way around.

I agree with your points, I will post the new diagram again.  I also have the opinion that D is for ON, and P for DP, but I am not sure actually just how it was wired by MIPS.