2 line princess phone mystery

[princessphone]

A while back bought a red 12 push button princess phone on eBay, I think for $20 or so. It appears to be in near mint condition. However I can't make out the model #. The numbers are faded and appear to be 17_ 3B. The date is a clear 12-67. The dialer is a 35E4A dated 1-69 and has a 4010DNET.
The base has no vent slots and has light socket with bulb but it is not wired up to function. The plastic shell is dated 68.
It has no ringer and in its place is a secondary "network". The left plunger is white and can be pulled up. It has a clear plastic 2 way switch on the left of dialer.
Instead of a line cord it has along 4 wire(red-green-white-black) red spring cord with a 505A plug.
Line 1 is wired: green to terminal 1 and red to terminal 2
Line 2 is wired: white to terminal E and black to terminal 8
I'm not sure exactly what I have, maybe someone  has some thoughts?
To me it appears that originally someone rented this "hybrid" unit as a 10 button phone(1703B) and soon after had it upgraded to a 12 button 2713B.
Some web sites give applications (functions) -as Bell did- to some of their exotic models. Such as:
- message waiting lamp
- exclusion switch
- secretarial exclusion
- signaling
Can someone explain what these functions actually mean and how they were used?
I suspect that the Phone Guys in them days were smart and customer friendly, and could and would customize units to suite farms and small businesses. ( No malice intended towards todays techies).
Thanks, John DeJonge                   

[WEBellSystemChristian]

Do you have a picture of it? It might have a dial with  a * and # conversion kit.

[princessphone]

Hi Christian,
Thanks for reply. At this time I haven't yet learned how to post pictures yet. Can you tell me where to look for the * or # symbols. Also could a 12 button dialer be wired into a 10 button chassis? Would a 12 button dialer have more wires than a 10 button dialer? Just curious. John     

[WEBellSystemChristian]

Hi Christian,
Thanks for reply. At this time I haven't yet learned how to post pictures yet. Can you tell me where to look for the * or # symbols. Also could a 12 button dialer be wired into a 10 button chassis? Would a 12 button dialer have more wires than a 10 button dialer? Just curious. John     

The # and * buttons are the buttons on the bottom right and bottom left of the dial. If the buttons seem lighter in color or newer looking than the rest of the buttons, they could be the conversion types. If they seem the same, the whole button pad is probably a replacement.

Read this topic: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=3720.

[paul-f]

John,
Check out the photos and descriptions on this page:

   http://www.paul-f.com/wePrincess.html#1702

Chances are your phone started life as as 1713B with a 25-type dial and was converted to a 2713B by replacing the dial with the current 35-type dial.  A new housing with 12 holes was required.

Check the dates on the dial and housing and compare them with the dates on other components, such as the network and on the bottom.

The converted dial Christian mentioned would have been marked with a 25-type number, indicating it was made with 10 buttons.  Later model 25-type dials could be converted to 12 buttons.  See:

   http://www.paul-f.com/we25up.htm

[princessphone]

Hello Christian,
I now understand what you were explaining to me about the * and # buttons. My 12 button dialer (35E4A) appears to be a whole replacement unit to update the phone. I did not know that WE went to the trouble and expense to design an intermediate design dialer to upgrade their 10 button dialers. Thanks for sharing this info with me.
PS  I find it amazing that at your age you know so much. John     

[Kenton K]

Paul,

You mentioned on that page that the */# filler used on 10 button sets with 12 button face plates have to be scarcer than 1500 sets.

What do you mean by that?

KK

[princessphone]

Hello Paul-f,
Nice to hear from you again. I recall that you gave me a great welcome when I was accepted by this fantastic organization a year or so back. At that time I had just a couple of princesses and now have about 20 of them, mostly red and black. 12 of them are wired up throughout the house. All of them ring with the support of a Viking Ring Booster, and a couple of Edwards transformers to light up all the girls with out the dimming effect. I think I would like to change my handle to "Lord of the Rings". I'm having fun buying an inexpensive phone, cleaning/fixing it up and then giving it away. 
About my 2 line princess. I agree with you that this phone likely started as a 1713B dated 12-67. Then with the update a new shell was installed dated 68, and a new dialer (35E4A) dated 1-69. I tested the 2 line function with the switch and it works great.
This is by far my best princess so far. It really has given me a lot of respect for those engineers who designed these wonderful phones. It's amazing what 2 wires with low voltage can do.
Thanks for all the help, John DeJonge   

[WEBellSystemChristian]

Hello Christian,
I now understand what you were explaining to me about the * and # buttons. My 12 button dialer (35E4A) appears to be a whole replacement unit to update the phone. I did not know that WE went to the trouble and expense to design an intermediate design dialer to upgrade their 10 button dialers. Thanks for sharing this info with me.
PS  I find it amazing that at your age you know so much. John     

I bet you could either replace the current dial with a 10 button one, or modify that dial so that it looks like an original one.

P.S, I am pretty knowledgeable in Western Electric phones from the 20s to the 70s, but I know nothing compared to what other people on this forum know.. I am getting better, though, since I've only been collecting for a year.

[princessphone]

Hello Christian'
You are too modest about your knowledge. Thanks for the suggestions, I like your way of restoration to try to keep things original. I'll seriously will consider them. John   

[Jim Stettler]

It may be for farm or home interphone. I would check Paul's site..
Jim

[paul-f]

You're welcome, John.

It's great to hear about the progress of your collection.  We always like to see photos, if convenient.

It's a small point, but the original number for your set was probably 1713B, making the upgrade to 2713B simple.  As mentioned, it would be simple to convert it back if you wish. 

The filler panel is the small plastic piece shown in the phone on the referenced site page that fills in the empty holes when a housing designed for a 12-button dial is used on a set with a 10-button dial.

The home interphone version had a small transmitter crammed in there as well.  I was sent a set with a housing cracked over the transmitter, as there was negative clearance and the housing spent decades over-tightened.  The transmitter punched through the plastic!

Here's the inside view.  The parts are really packed in there.

[princessphone]

Hi paul-f,
Thanks for the reply. I enjoyed that picture. It must have been a real surprise to find that little transmitter tucked in there. It amazes me that some even had a little vacuum tube squeezed inside.   
Here's what I'm thinking. I think, at least for now, to leave her as is since the upgrade was done probably soon after the first customer rented her. Imagine renting a real princess. Also if or when someone decides to use her, she will be more compatible in this new digital world.
One thing I may change in her is to replace the 4 wire springy (coiled) line cord with a 6 wire red line cord. This would retain the 2 line function and be able to also power the light. Would anyone know where I might locate a 6 wire red line cord?
I have a 5 wire red line cord, and I was just wondering if two of the phone wires could be wired as a common ground, thus freeing up one wire?
Another thing, she still has the original phone numbers on the number card. 312-446-2361 and 2374 (below the last 4 numbers). Has anyone ever tried to contact an original or previous owner to obtain some history on the phone? With any success? I'm a bit curious to know how this phone was used.
I bought a digital camara so I hope to be able to post a couple of pictures soon.
John DeJonge
Thanks,       

[Phonesrfun]

5 wires won't work, because on the voice lines, you cannot make any one of them common without causing interferance, cross talk and unbalance.  Each tip and ring loop has to be its own pair.  Also, the lamp cannot be commoned with any of the talk pairs without also causing unbalance and hum.  You will either need 6 wires or no lamp, or only one working line.

[princessphone]

Hi paul-f,
Just what I was afraid of, rats!
John