Loose 302 Ringer Mount - Rubber Grommets Missing

[TelePlay]

Just received a very nice matching date 1948 plastic 302. While removing it from the box, I noticed something was loose inside.

Turns out it is was the ringer assembly. I removed the ringer and discovered it was the ringer cradle, or mount - the piece mounted to the base with three large head rivets.

I found a reference to something similar at this link:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4145.msg53908#msg53908

However, the fix to my problem was not included in that thread. The base of this 302 is in excellent condition. What seems to be missing are whatever was under the mount plate around the rivet posts that forced the mounting plate up tight against the large heads of the three rivets.

Any idea of how to fix this? What to use and how to install it without removing the rivets so the ringer mount is raised off of the base and the ringer sounds like it should?

-----------------------

Also, another question. Both the base and the ringer are dated 9-48-A. The 101A coil is dated III-48. What's up with the "A"?

The phone has a 4 wire capacitor, a 4-48 5H dial (with a Z/Operator/O plate) and the base is marked H1 in vermilion and 6-23-48-2 in yellow/green.

What, if anything, does the "A" mean?

[TelePlay]

Both the base and the ringer are dated 9-48-A. The 101A coil is dated III-48. The phone base is marked H1 in vermilion and 6-23-48-2 in yellow/green. What, if anything, does the "A" mean?

Got my answer about the "A" from another post I put up about a capacitor in the F1W handset. This must have been a phone made by WE for an independent phone company, a W on the handset and an "A" after the dates in the base. Even the dial is marked 5H*.

As for the ringer mount/cradle being loose, woke up in the middle of the night thinking 3 small rubber grommets cut open and forced around the rivet posts between the plate and the base should work. A small drop of epoxy on the cut would help keep them in place. That should work unless somebody has a better fix.

[HarrySmith]

You can find O rings at your local hardware store that can stretch over the head of the rivet and hold the bracket. There is a post here somewhere about doing this but I could not find it.

[TelePlay]

Harry,

Duh  ,  I was thinking the O rings went under the plate. Should have taken one of my other 302's apart to see how it was done. The large rivet heads fit so well into the plate recessions I just assumed the rings were on the bottom, but even WE wouldn't have made it that difficult to repair.

Anyway, found the link you remembered. Here is a might fine picture of a Dennis refurb:

http://tinyurl.com/bwvj3j7


This is the link that came from, with more good information.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=284.msg4857#msg4857

Thanks the the tip, Harry.


And, by the way, I now know for sure it's a phone made for an independent. The worn feet are fabric, not leather. Good felt but bad fabric.

[cihensley@aol.com]

The O rings just tighten the ringer mounting if he shoulder grommet is partially decayed. Based on the pictures you posted, the shoulder grommets have completely crumbled and are no longer partially present. If you don't want to go to the trouble and expense to restore them fully, your middle-of-the-night solution using grommets instead of O rings might be preferable.

Chuck

[TelePlay]

There was nothing either above or below the plate on all three posts. Didn't realize there were two on each rivet post.

I put the grommets in today and it seems to have firmed up the plate well, it provides for a little movement to absorb the vibrations during ringing and being totally off the base, the bell should sound normal. If it sounds good, the grommets should last longer than I'll be around, I hope.

Thanks for the added info.

[TelePlay]

Opened up another 302 and there seems to be something under the plate keeping it from making contact with the base along with an O ring on top around the rivet. The two item together suspend the plate above the base while absorbing vibrations from the ringer. The bottom item seems to be a stiff felt or something like that. I guess as long as the mounting plate is not in contact with the base, the bell should sound normal.

Maybe Dennis can help out with the exact way these were made.

And, I'm really starting to not like 302's. I bought one a few years ago and now I have 15 to 20 of them, mostly pre-war metal. They sure do multiply. Have another one in the mail right now, heading to me.

[AE_Collector]

I have NO IDEA what it should be like but it seems to me that a single grommet installed in each of the holes before the rivet was installed fastening the bracket to the base would suspend the bracket off of the metal base. Wouldn't the original scenario have been that straight forward?

Terry

[TelePlay]

That sounds like the best guess so far. A grommet in the plate hole before the plate was riveted to the base would be quick and cheap, but would also make it difficult to repair in the field. But knowing WE, they probably used a grommet expected to outlive the expected life span of the 302. 

Maybe that's why it looks like an O ring from the top and something is visible under the plate, between the plate and base. If only the top half of the grommet were to deteriorate, an O ring over the rivet head would be an easy fix. In my case, there was nothing on either side of the plate. I could have used a split 1/8th inch hard rubber washer below the plate and an appropriate thickness O ring on the top side, would have been a better fix, but I already installed thick grommets between the base and plate.

The 302 I pulled appart has one of the 3 rivet posts with the same problem so will try the washer O ring fix on that. I'll have to look into that this week.

Thanks for the idea.

[AE_Collector]

If you can find some rather large grommets, it shouldn't be too difficult to get the grommet over the head of the rivet. Then you can probably poke around in there enough to get the bottom of the grammet through the hole in the bracket using a small flat blade screw driver or some other type of tool. I think the trick will be finding fairly large grommets.

Terry

[cihensley@aol.com]

Terry is correct. They are a single grommet for each of the three posts. They were not intended for field repair.  To do a complete restoration, drill-out the current rivets. McMaster-Carr carries grommets and rivets that are close to originals. If you want to do this, let me know and I will look-up the parts numbers for the one that I have.

Chuck

[TelePlay]

Tried a couple of things and settled on this fix. I didn't want to drill out the rivet posts so I rebuilt each "grommet" by placing (one at a time) 2 half inch neoprene washers, a quarter inch hole and 1/16 inch thick, over each of the 3 half inch heads and carefully pushed them through the plate hole so they would become a 1/8th inch base between the ringer mount and the base plate.

I then took a 1/2" grommet with a .225 hole (Radio Shack multi-pack) and cut the center barrel off giving me 2 round edged washers. I used 2 small flat screwdrivers to insert on of these with the rounded side down toward the plate to keep the plate centered on the washer and not make contact with the post over time. I used a "C" clamp to "squeeze" the mounting plate toward the base plate to make it easier to put the top washers under between the large rivet heads and the mounting plate.

It's a solid mount with some  movement to absorb the ringer vibrations. If I were to do this again, I would slightly sand down the two washers under the plate a very small amount to make it easier to get the rounded top washer under the large rivet head and allow a bit more mount movement to absorb vibrations. I'd still stick with the cut grommet which works better than the "O" rings I tried for the top washer.

It's not all polished and pretty inside but the fix works and it's a phone I'm going to give away to a friend for use. The ringer hides the imperfections caused by trial and error on this first time fix.

It's a 302 made by WE for an independent company (FW1) with an "A" after the base and ringer date. The thermoplastic base will look new and being a 1948 302, it has brass bells, not the war time black steel bells. It came with a long coiled cord but think I will put a straight rubber cord on the handset to make it look a bit older.

The flat washer and cut grommet (being held by the forceps) are shown next to the fixed mount.

EDIT: 5/27/17 - the image attached shows the ringer mount removed, showing what someone has to deal with when trying to replace the rubber mounting grommets without removing the rivets. If drilling out the rivets and replacing the grommets in one piece, it is very important to shave the top of the grommet off with an exacto knife so it is flat with the mounting plate. If that is not done, the rivet will touch the B1A ringer and transfer vibrations from the ringer through the rivet to the base and housing defeating the purpose or design of the rubber mount. The protrusion on the bottom side of the ringer mounting plate is what will cause a rubber washer installed by cutting it in half and then pushing each half in from opposite sides to separate over time and even fall out. It is best to install 2 (two) 1/16" thick 1/2" diameter with 1/4" holes onto each rivet post by pressing them through the small gap between the rivet post and the mounting plate hole (trying to push 1 (one) 1/8" thick washer is impossible due to lack of space between the rivet post and the mounting plate hole. The grommet head shown on the plate bottom is 1/8" thick, the same distance found in 302's with the rubber mounts intact. That 1/8" is crucial to making sure the rivet head does not touch the metal mounting plate.

[Dennis Markham]

Nice job, John.  That made a nice fix for the ringer mount.  I've done a similar repair but simply picked up some O-rings at the hardware store---in the plumbing section and popped one over each post.  I used wide ones with a small opening.  It was a little difficult to get them on but made a tight fit that allowed for vibration movement.

[TelePlay]

Thanks, Dennis.

I had some O rings but they just didn't like to stay under the head. The sliced grommet is like half an O ring letting the flat side sit against the bottom of the big rivet and the round side fit the depression in the plate centering the post in the middle of the plate hole. The rivet post is about 0.2 inches so using washers and a grommet with .25" opening keeps them near the post. Also, heating them up with a light bulb helps get them to stretch over that big flat head.

And Atlanta? Tell me more about that. Was that the only off site plant that WE had or was it the independent phone only plant? Never saw a letter before. What was that all about?

[HarrySmith]

There was a discussion a while back about this, one thing I remeber is using orings. I don't recall the exact details but a search should pull it up. There were other things discussed also.