KTAS D-30 phone jack wiring question

[mn15002009]

Well just another new guy asking a question after searching this great site and not really finding an answer. I purchased this great looking old phone at a yard sale and some previous owner made an attempt to wire it to work with a modern phone jack, but it doesnt work for me. I have read and it seems like the Red and green are the two wires that do all the heavy lifting and those are the two wires the previous owner has connected to the modern phone jack, and he simply cut the remaining wires. If I plug my new old phone (NOP) in I dont hear a dial tone and cannot make outgoing calls. If I dial the phone number the NOP is plugged into it will ring but when I pick up the receiver I cannot hear anyone on the other side and the phone that dialed the NOP is still ringing. Anyone have ideas on how to properly wire this phone? I have taken the flat plate on the bottom of the phone off and dont really see how the top of the phone comes apart just yet. I have also reversed the red and green wires but the phone operates the same way, nothing really works except the ringer. Any help would be great as I would like to use this nice looking old phone in my home office.
Thanks,
Mike

[wds]

Nice phone - welcome!  Is the dial leaning to the right, or did I have too much to drink for lunch?

[andre_janew]

Unless we are both drunk, I'd say the dial is leaning to one side.  That probably has nothing to do with the phone not working right unless the leaning dial is causing something to short out.  I suspect that it might have a loose or broken wire.  We won't know for sure until someone can figure out how to open it up. 

My dad once told me about a friend of his that had two phones on his desk in his study.  Why two phones?  One did nothing but ring, the other did everything else!

[mn15002009]

The dial is leaning to the right, it does not go all the way back to the set position without help. When I dial I simply leave my finger in until I complete each number in both directions. If I set the dial all the way back to the left I still cannot hear a dial tone and with the dialing process mentioned above I cannot dial out. Any help is welcome.

[dsk]

Hi, and wlcome. The colors on the cord may be right, but this diagram should help:

[dsk]

L1 and L2 to the line.
The straps between L2 and C
and
A end B are important for the ringer.

Regarding the dial, a cleaning and some oil on the right spots might solve it.

dsk

[mn15002009]

Thank you both for your help. Is the large symbol labeled "Rosetten er set Bagfra" the original phone jack? I have never been real good at reading electrical schematics so just a few follow up questions, please bear with me. Is L1 Red and L2 Green, if not what are they attached to on a modern phone jack? Than how do I get the dial off the phone so I can look at this wiring inside the phone? I can get the handset cradle off and take the one nut on the top of the phone off but then how does the dial come off or does it come off with the top cover? If I could get the top cover off I can check to see if C is strapped to L1 and A & B strapped together. If all is good what color wires do C, B, A, J attach to on a modern phone jack?

[dsk]

Rosetten is a name on the circular connection box before they used plugs and jacks, (If you Google rosett, and look at pictures, you will probably not find any connection boxes ) set bagfra = seen from the rear. On a modern phone you will only need the 2 wires L1 and L2 A and B was for an optional ringer.  C if grounded ringing was used, And J for Jord=Soil or ground for a counter.

The rest of the questions are difficult to answer when I don't have such phone here.

dsk

[mn15002009]

Well some good news and some bad. I did get the top cover off and all is wired as in the above schematic. I did notice the back of the dial was not all the way back to the reset position (left) and if I set it there it opened a set of points. So I set it to the left to break the points and plugged it back in and had a dial tone. I could now hear the person on the other side of the line but they could not hear me. So I thought I would try to remove the dial from the top cover and I did. Now I thought I would try to clean it as I could not get it taken apart any further. I sprayed some electronic cleaner inside the back of the dial and it seemed to get worst so then I sprayed a very small amount of silicone spray and it did not help so I cleaned it with the electronic cleaner again and this time tried WD-40. Now I can dial but it does not spring back at all, not sure if I broke a spring or if any of the three sprays did more harm than good. All parts seem to move but there must be a spring that I cannot see. So the good news is I have a dial tone when the dial is put all the way back to the left and I can hear incoming calls. The bad news is incoming calls cannot hear me, I cannot dial out and now the dial does not spring back at all. Help! I am just about ready to give up.
Mike

[Jack Ryan]

That dial is almost identical to a Siemens No 10 (I assume it is licensed) and uses a slipping clutch to create the interdigit pause. If you spray it with WD40 or similar the clutch will not operate properly.

I haven't followed the thread and I'm not sure what "left" means but when the dial is on normal (at rest, full anti-clockwise), two shunt contacts are held open. When the dial is moved off normal (moved clockwise), both contacts make (connect).

Jack

[mn15002009]

Is there a way to fix the clutch now that I have sprayed it with WD-40? If so how, the dial did not move all the way back to the rest position and I was trying to fix it. any help would be great.
Thanks,
Mike

[andre_janew]

Perhaps the electronic cleaner would get rid of the WD40.  Anyhow, most people on this forum clean their rotary dials with electronic cleaner and oil them with 3 in 1 oil.  WD40 is strictly forbidden!

[rdelius]

Those type of dials and #10s also have thin mainsprings they will break, espspecally if they get any rust on them.If broken at one end they can still be reused.You might be able to use a spring out of the plastic dial on a 706 telephone. A #10 or12 will work also.I think 3 in one is too heavy for dials.I use synthetic clock oil

[TelePlay]

Is there a way to fix the clutch now that I have sprayed it with WD-40? If so how, the dial did not move all the way back to the rest position and I was trying to fix it. any help would be great.

Ultrasonic cleaning may do the job but I am not familiar with that dial. I have cleaned AE and WE dials ultrasonically with great success. I've found that such cleaning gets rid of dirt, oil and crud. You can use the forum search function using "ultrasonic" to get more info on that.

After cleaning and drying, I oil the bearing points sparingly with a light machine oil and wipe off the excess. Oils used are listed here and each discussed with that whole topic:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7899.msg124966#msg124966

[mn15002009]

Hey guys thanks for all the information, I will have to read all your responses before attempting to make this repair, keep in mind I am new to attempting to repair a telephone. My biggest concern now that I have already done damage to my dial is doing more damage to the dial. My question about the slipping clutch and return spring is how do I take apart the dial without doing more damage? It looks like if I take the nut on the middle back of the dial off I can clean the slipping clutch and probably see if the spring is broken. Can the arm that opens the points be set out of timing to throw off all the dial or does it sit in a set position with the clutch, is there an alignment pin or something that helps me line everything up when I put it back together? Secondly is the spring going to unravel itself and become totally useless? What keeps the spring in usable condition? Am I thinking correctly on how this repair will go down or am I way off? I know this is a lot of questions but I really need some help as I have never done this before.
Thanks again
Mike