Well, not quite yet, but I found several major parts that I needed in order to start restoration.
As some of you know, I found two 10 button 3 slot upper housings at a flea market last September. I figured that finding the rest of a 3 slot would be incredibly easy...WRONG!!! Everywhere I looked for a backboard and lower housing, someone would buy it for just a little more than I was willing to pay. Not only that, but I'm looking for parts in duplicate; twice as hard!!!
Fortunately, I managed to pull through on two backboards and one lower housing tonight. The lower housing and one of the backboards are connected to an upper housing, which appears to have been a chrome NE at one point. It's basically a hull of a phone now, so I don't feel too bad about parting it out. I got that for $65. The other backboard was on a beige 233G, and was listed for $11.99. It has a chip in the side, but it should be able to be patched with some powdercoat-safe body putty.
Both upper housings are mostly complete, save for a couple screws that hold the coin return button and coin chute in place. I plan on sending in a sample green G3 handset cap to Columbia Coatings to custom mix a powdercoat batch for both phones.
Before that, I still need to find the rest of the pieces for each, including another lower housing. Anybody have one they would be willing to sell? The rest shouldn't be all that hard, hopefully... :o
Overall, pretty happy that I can finally get this project off the ground!
Original topic: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12730
Backboard and lower housing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/371495934273
Backboard: http://www.ebay.com/itm/172012099839
You have two very nice upper housing that are very hard to come by. The value of these two phones completed could be anywhere from 1200.00 to 2400.00 dollars. You do not what to throw them together with a bunch of substandard parts. The parts you are looking fo are not that hard to come by and not that expensive. You have found the hard parts. I can help you get very close to completing the parts you need to do this right. Jim
Quote from: Payphone installer on December 04, 2015, 08:01:51 AM
You have two very nice upper housing that are very hard to come by. The value of these two phones completed could be anywhere from 1200.00 to 2400.00 dollars. You do not what to throw them together with a bunch of substandard parts. The parts you are looking fo are not that hard to come by and not that expensive. You have found the hard parts. I can help you get very close to completing the parts you need to do this right. Jim
I sent you a PM.
Okay, take two...
I finally found some worthwhile parts on eBay. $75 for a frankenphone 3-slot without the upper housing. (better off that way, I don't have any idea what I would do with another spare upper housing... :o )
I was a little disappointed when I saw the NE backboard, and although it's completely compatible with WE parts, I was told that these upper housings are worth more than to be used with non-matching parts from different manufacturers. It arrived today, and I was relieved to see that it has a WE lower housing! I have a spare WE backboard (previous post), so they will be assembled together. I can use the rest of the parts with the complete phone after everything is sandblasted and powdercoated.
It appears this was built by someone out of non-matching parts. Experts: What other innards do I need other than what's pictured to bring this to factory-spec for one of my 1234s? Please use layman's terms! ;)
I would like to use matching parts and 1234G parts to use for this, but it won't really matter in the end; everything will end up being sandblasted and powder coated anyway. The rare upper housings themselves have holes drilled in the tops, they were lamps at one point and were once probably considered junk.
I don't have the money to restore these to museum-quality authenticity with matching parts, but I will do the very best I can to restore them to the way they looked out of the factory. So long as the parts are correct WE, or at least impossible to distinguish from correct parts when complete, I'll be happy.
www.ebay.com/itm/152270748554
Here is a photo from one of Stan S.'s articles: (photo attached below)
http://atcaonline.com/WE200payphones.html
Note the terminal board at the top of the phone, and the connector for the plug from the upper housing. Are there other differences compared to a 234G backplate?
Also, here is a wiring diagram:
http://telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3037-506-319-429-i3-coin-collector-1234g-connections-tl (TCI)
the extra terminals on the board are for a resistor. the original 685D subset had the resistor in the subset. later the use of 685A subsets eliminated the resistor in the subset and they were mounted in the phone. the resistor can be mounted elsewhere. doesnt need to be on the terminal strip. the resistor is needed to not burn out the transistor in the dial.
i would consult with StanS for more information.
puttng a top flag on the phones should cover the hole they drilled when they made it lamp, unless they drilled in front of the coin guage.
My black 1234g came from ebay. it was listed three times with only the last auction getting bids. i ended up with mine as a second chnce bid, as the winner couldn't pay. what did i pay? all of $525. the ones the collectors want are already in collections. new collectors wont pay big bucks. and i wont either. and i doubt i could sell mine for more than what i paid anyway. i dont see the collector base as large as it used to be.
Well, after the disappointing news with my 197G, I decided to set it aside and work on another, more complete, payphone project!
I decided not to use the lower housing/backboard I bought, and figured parts in much better condition would be more correct on a more valuable phone. I can use the broken parts for a different upper housing down the line.
I have a 1966 beige 233G that was completely gutted. I figured, rather than trying to refill it with parts, I think it would be better to use the backboard and lower housing for one of my 1234s.
I just discovered that one of my 1234 upper housings are showing black when I scratch the green surface paint. I think I already know the answer, but can I assume that it was originally Black? It also has a 3-66 date inside, on top of the Green. Because the date here is most likely a refurb date, should I bother re-stamping it after powdercoating (assuming it goes Black)?
Here is a (very bad) picture of the inside scratches and date stamp. Both 1234G upper housings are green and have the same stamping style inside, but it looks like this one was painted black at one point. However, I don't see Green overspray showing bare black anywhere. Pretty strange. Any thoughts?
Christian - From what I've seen with 3-slots, I bet many older units were completely stripped of parts, including the worn coin gauges, then repainted and new parts installed. One of your uppers may have been from a black 233G that was well-worn and refurbed into a "new" unit. The other thought is perhaps some parts in the WE factory that were painted black were sent back to the paint booth to complete a large, unexpected order for green. Others here may know for sure what the WE factory or refurb centers may have done. Payphones were an industrial product, not a home decorator item, so the "fit & finish" was more about security and corrosion protection, rather than beauty.
One more thought - Those uppers are valuable parts. A collector would probably assign more value to the original paint they have now, regardless of condition, versus a new powdercoat. I know there are two camps in most hobbies about this - should I repaint my classic car or leave the worn, original paint? My vote would be to leave the uppers as is and have some paint mixed to match the backboard/vault you plan to use. I am a "preserve the originality where possible" guy. Again, just a hobby; your choice.....
Thanks for the info about a probable factory refurbishment. That's probably the only instance of WE refurbishment at the factory that I have ever heard of. What I don't get is: how could they have manipulated the metal under the dial area of a 233G to get the squared off flat plate this 1234G has.
Believe me, I try to preserve paint whenever I can, but this paint is too far gone to preserve. The bottom edge is chipping off, and is very rusted. It also has lighter colored touch-up paint everywhere, which is starting to rust through even more. Someone along the line also drilled a 3/4 inch hole in the top. Plus, the lower housings and backboards are missing, and the effort trying to find a backboard and lower housing in Green with the same level of wear and patina would be better spent giving the phones a well-deserved restoration IMHO. To me, it's just not worth trying to save the paint on the outside of these phones. If it was in great shape, I'd touch it up and powdercoat the lower and backboard, but in the condition they're in, it just won't look right.
My plan before was to sandblast everything and powdercoat it black (what I thought the factory color was), but now that I know it was Green from the factory, I decided that I will strip the outside instead of sandblasting, and the inside will be masked off to preserve the dates and paint.
The powder will be custom color matched by the powdercoating company.
Christian - I was speculating about the reason for the black underneath the green paint. I could certainly be wrong. I didn't know about the touch tone version having a different hole config under that large stainless panel - unlikely rotary models were refurbed in that case. Hopefully someone else with greater knowledge will chime in.
I understand about the paint - if it's too far gone, you are probably better off repainting. Always nice to preserve the ink stamps if possible.... Paul
"My plan before was to sandblast everything and powdercoat it black (what I thought the factory color was), but now that I know it was Green from the factory, I decided that I will strip the outside instead of sandblasting, and the inside will be masked off to preserve the dates and paint.
The powder will be custom color matched by the powdercoating company."
Christian
You obviously have never attempted to refinish a 3-slot top.
If you take a close look at the coin gauge assembly you'll find that it's mounted on a separate plate from the rest of the top.
The coin gauge assembly has 3 washer rejectors that are nylon. If you sandblast and powder coat the top as one piece when you go to cure the powder (300-400 degrees) the washer rejectors will turn into cinders. You can then take the top and toss it in the garbage.
You will have to grind or drill out the rivets that hold the plate with the gauge assembly and paint that assembly separately- not with powder or any liquid paint that needs high temp. to cure.
Assuming you accomplish all this and you can find liquid paint that matches the custom blended green powder, where are you going the find the rivets to put it all back together. Even more importantly where are you going to find the press and the fixtures to position the top so it can be re-riveted. There's very little room on the inside of that top.
All of the 3-slot tops where stamped from a flat piece of sheet metal. They were then bent and seam welded. The top of that Touch Tone phone was never for a rotary dial. There's a large square cut that's under the front chrome plate. I suspect that the black that's under the green is nothing but a primer or a rust inhibitor. You'll find that the factory green and beige paint that Western used on those payphones was a totally different formula than the black paint. I've stripped hundreds of black 200 series Westerns with sodium hydroxide and hot water. I DON'T SANDBLAST THEM! Green and beige Westerns laugh at sodium hydroxide. Might as well be soap and water. Original Western green and beige paint is bullet proof. I've tried every paint stripper on the market. NOTHING WORKS.
The only way you will be able to refinish that payphone is have all the metal sandblasted. Then take it to an auto body shop and have all the case parts painted with liquid paint and cured at a very low temperature to protect the nylon washer rejectors (which you will have to mask). I don't know where you live, but in New York City with all the environmental laws you are talking about A LOT OF MONEY.
Stan S.
Stan:
As for the coin gauge: it's already removed, and the nylon rejectors are out safe and sound. I had to take a Dremel to the old rivets for the coin gauge and drill them out, but everything worked out smoothly. I've made myself 100% sure that there is nothing on the upper that could be melted in the oven. Right now, the upper is completely disassembled, and all of the parts are organized in bags. The only part not removed is the arm that controls the coin release button, but it will be masked off with heat-resistant powdercoating tape I've used before. Is the coin gauge plate something other than metal?
I have used Rustoleum Aircraft Remover with great success on every paint I've tried it on. I don't know what paints you've worked with in the past, but this stuff melts off like a dream when I tested a spot with Acetone. It took about 5 seconds of rubbing to get down to bare metal. I'm sure paint stripper will take it off like nothing. Because the upper has dates and paint inside that I will be preserving, and the mismatched lower and backboard don't, the latter two will be sandblasted. My Dad has a sandblaster, and we do our own powdercoating. The only out-of-pocket cost will be the price of the powder.
Instead of the press-on rivets, I will probably use self-tapping rivets, like the kind used on coin return plates for Grays and early WEs. If the ones on Old Phone Shop aren't the right size, I can always visit my local Fastenal and see if they have the right type. What I like about the self-tapping is that they look correct, you don't need to mechanically press them in place, and if they don't work out or someone wants to replace them in the future, they can always be removed. I was also thinking about possibly using a bolt with a rivet head (like the bolts for the instruction flag), just to make the system a little more normal.
PS: I have sandblasted and powdercoated a 3 slot upper before. It was an AE, so it didn't have the coin release arm in the way. I believe I also took a different approach to re-mounting the coin gauge...
Christian
Good luck!
Stan S.
Thanks Stan!
I ordered the powder, it should be here in the next few weeks.
I've been cleaning/polishing all of the internal parts. I also ultrasonically cleaned the faceplate, followed by a thorough polishing with Brasso. It looks brand new now!
I still need a scan of one of the 10 button payphone instruction cards. Does anybody have one?
Christian
These should print the proper size.
(We can only hope).
See attached.
Stan S.
Thanks for the scans!
Do you know what the barrel locks were used for? Maybe just extra security?
The donor backboard doesn't have the section that the barrel lock in the upper attaches to. Is that a common part, or something that was built specifically for these 3 slots?
Christian - There was one of these locks that sold very recently on Ebay (link and auction pic below). The bolt is very hard to find nowadays, and this one sold for $65 complete. The bolt head serves also as one of 4 security studs when the phone was mounted on a 174A back plate. Newer back boards had the bosses for those studs from the factory, I believe - your beige 197 was retrofitted with them during refurb. The barrel lock was very common on newer WE 3-slots such as 233G and 236G phones.
http://ebay.com/itm/302184277651
These were added in the early-mid 60s, I believe, to prevent vandals from prying the upper open by lifting to overcome the 10G/H lock. Stan probably has additional detail.....and he can also correct errors I may have made in this post.
Should I leave the current barrel lock there for asthetics (and hope I find the correct bolt in the future), or change it out for a blank?
I would leave it. It looks right, and a plug wouldn't.
JMO,
Jim S.
I'm with Jim on this. I would leave the locks in place. They are correct, and the phones will look proper on the outside. My avatar 236G is missing the bolt as well, but the lock remains in place.
Christian since I would like to see at least of of these tops preserved I will make you a deal. I wil ship you a entire 1234 G in black which is one of the rarest colors. There are a few parts missing and the chrome is damaged. But I think you have what you need to complete it. I will even ship it for free. All you need to do is ship me on of the uppers that is untouched. I will post pictures of the phone today.
here is what you are dealing with. Years ago Phonco got there hands on lots of 1234G's which at the time were consitered junk. They were converted to rotary by cutting out parts removing certain guts and installing a rotary dial on the front. N Iotice this black phone was green which is still under the paint. your upper short mof the internal ringer will restore this phone . And it is a vauable phone when complete. Here are the pics. Jim
More pics,note the welded in tray. You will have a few remaining parts to find I probably have most. jim
Thanks for the offer, Jim, but I feel that my uppers are more complete, and have more vital parts like the faceplate that would be impossible to replace. Either way, I wouldn't be preserving the original paint and would be repainting either one green.
Again, thanks for the offer, but I would rather stick with restoring the two 1234s I already have.
I expected the answer that I got from you,restoring a fine antique to a accurate time line as it was in the day is a dying art. You helped me confirm that belief. Good luck on your project.
Christian - I was cleaning out some surplus phone-related stuff and I wondered if you'd like this "dummy" vault door. If will need some work to smooth the scratches/small dings on the front, but painted (powder coated?) green or as polished AL it would look nice on one of 1234Gs until you find a vault door. If you'd like it, PM me your address and I'll mail it out. I almost tossed it, but then remembered you may have at least a temporary use for it.
Thanks Paul, but I don't think I'll need it. I think I'll wait to get a real door!
I may consider (or at least let others consider) getting it to use on a payphone for resale. I already have one in my parts stash from my 197G, so I'm set for now! ;)
I sent a handset cap to Columbia Coatings for color matching powdercoat back in January or early February. It took them awhile, but they sent back a couple swatches of similar Greens; one was a stock color, the other custom mixed. The custom mixed color was actually not done very well, and was actually too green; the stock color was much closer! It's slightly less brown than the 2nd coat on the upper housing, but the original paint underneath is actually less brown than the 2nd coat.
I ordered 2 pounds of the new powder, and while I wait for it to arrive, I'll be sandblasting/chemically stripping the housing parts for my first 1234G.
Here's how it looks now, minus some internal components, a vault door and lock (on the way), and a handset.
Don't worry guys, I stuck to all original WE parts. The upper lower housing and backboard were taken from a heavily refurbished Beige 3 slot, originally built in 1966. 8) The vault door I bought for it is WE from late 1965, and the lock (sold separately, but from the same vault door) is genuine WE.
My dad copied the fonts off the original instruction card, and made an exact replica card. We printed it out on some yellowed cardstock, and it looks great! I think I can post a PDF of that card here, if anyone's interested.
I still need a Green 1966 handset for this. Let me know if anyone has one!
Wow, Christian - that is a beauty!! The green color and instruction card sure look authentic! Great job so far!!!
Thanks Paul! I put a lot of work into it so far; I'm glad it's finally paying off! :)
The color isn't exact, it's slightly lighter than Moss Green. However, it looks very close. The finish should last a long time; it has two coats of color powder, plus one coat clear powder.
What kind of number card would have gone above the instruction card, just the standard TT type? If so, I'll try to find one with a New York area code.
Perhaps Stan, Jim or another knowledgeable member can answer the number card question. I'd guess a 9XXX suffix number for a payphone.
Here it is with the new vault door!
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on November 29, 2015, 08:21:59 PM
I figured that finding the rest of a 3 slot would be incredibly easy...WRONG!!! Everywhere I looked for a backboard and lower housing, someone would buy it for just a little more than I was willing to pay. Not only that, but I'm looking for parts in duplicate; twice as hard!!!
I think looking back now on at least one of your projects, as we would say here in ex NY-Bell territory....fuhgeddaboudit! 8)
Really nice job pulling that phone together!