Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Telephone Restoration Projects and Techniques => Topic started by: TelePlay on June 27, 2016, 09:37:29 PM

Title: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on June 27, 2016, 09:37:29 PM
Right place at the right time, I hope. Saw this phone withing 5 minutes of it being listed.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-CANDLESTICK-TELEPHONE-LAMP-NEEDS-TLC-HELP/252436001479

Looked at the eBay photos for about 10 seconds and clicked the $25 BIN. Paid $37.75 with shipping. Seller description said "VINTAGE CANDLESTICK TELEPHONE LAMP~NEEDS TLC HELP. NEEDS HELP. SOLD AS IS." Heck with the lamp. Bought it for the dial and anything else of value would be a bonus. Bought it June 23, arrived today.

What is it, what did I find? No markings on it other than the dial. Seems like a painted parts phone based on what arrived in the box, what was left after the lamp conversion. Probably not worth restoring since so much is missing.

The lamp parts, rope receiver cord and AC line cord hit the garbage pail about the same time. Images below are of the good parts, the undamaged parts. Thinking of taking the paint off. The face plate could be solid brass, it's heavy enough. Any suggestions on what to do?

Seems to be a fully intact Mercedes Dial that needs cleaning. Looks like the 102-A dial posted some time ago on the forum (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15624.msg162486#msg162486). leads were cut as shown in the pictures.

I've never had a Mercedes so I don't have any idea as to what it is, its age or its type. Any help identifying it would be appreciated.

I think I bit the bear. If so, first time in a long time. Then again, I have no clue as to what I bought.  HELP!
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: poplar1 on June 27, 2016, 09:40:00 PM
The phone is an Automatic Electric Type 21.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on June 27, 2016, 09:54:48 PM
The phone is (was) an AE 21 and the dial is a model 1918 Mercedes. The dial seems to be complete but has been brassed out.

A very good buy!

Jack
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Fabius on June 27, 2016, 10:00:36 PM
Very nice. Is the perch where the lamp hole was drilled an easily replaceable part?
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on June 27, 2016, 10:21:14 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on June 27, 2016, 09:54:48 PM
The phone is (was) an AE 21 and the dial is a model 1918 Mercedes. The dial seems to be complete but has been brassed out.

Thanks, Jack.

The number plate seems to be in very good condition under the dirt. The dial as received did not want to return. A quick cleaning with R/S tuner cleaner and an oiling has it returning quite nice. Will do a PPS test tomorrow and then a better cleaning and oiling.

From the eBay pictures, I thought the finger wheel may have been painted. It is not. It seems to be solid brass, as is the finger stop,  the perch and maybe the face plate.

Quite a simple and thin dial with only two contact piles. The way the pulse is generated, the make/break process, is interesting. As I said, never had one of these before so happy to get my hands on one for cheap.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on June 27, 2016, 10:54:43 PM
The perch is probably a cast alloy - same material as metal Monophone 1-A perches. The transmitter face plate is brass.

Don't lose the screw that retains the perch. For some reason they go missing.

Jack
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on June 28, 2016, 05:29:59 AM
Nice find John....you will restore it to its past glory!! Another find of the month candidate....Doug
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on June 28, 2016, 09:41:08 PM
Took the paint off of the brass face plate and the broken receiver shell. To my surprise, the receiver shell seems to be wooden. Only marking on it is "H77" on the inside just below the threads. I like the grain and the slight crack in the side may not be noticeable when polished. Going to be hard to find a matching cap for this.

Anything special about a wood receiver?
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on June 28, 2016, 09:42:55 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on June 27, 2016, 10:54:43 PM
The perch is probably a cast alloy - same material as metal Monophone 1-A perches. The transmitter face plate is brass.

The perch looks like brass to me (brass is an alloy) so is this similar to the Monophone perch or different?
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on June 28, 2016, 09:50:31 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on June 27, 2016, 10:21:14 PM
The dial as received did not want to return. A quick cleaning with R/S tuner cleaner and an oiling has it returning quite nice. Will do a PPS test tomorrow and then a better cleaning and oiling.

Was very surprised to see the dial speed exactly 10 PPS. Yes, I know, just turned out that way, the numbers that is. And the break/make ratio is right on as well. The pulse contacts seem to be a bit dirty as there is some "noise" during some of the contact changes.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on June 28, 2016, 10:14:32 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on June 28, 2016, 09:41:08 PM
Took the paint off of the brass face plate and the broken receiver shell. To my surprise, the receiver shell seems to be wooden. Only marking on it is "H77" on the inside just below the threads. I like the grain and the slight crack in the side may not be noticeable when polished. Going to be hard to find a matching cap for this.

Anything special about a wood receiver?


Wood - really? The thread looks brass. It might be a British/Commonwealth receiver that is brass with an Ebonite coating.

Jack
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on June 28, 2016, 10:20:29 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on June 28, 2016, 09:42:55 PM
The perch looks like brass to me (brass is an alloy) so is this similar to the Monophone perch or different?


It looks brass to me too. What is the shaft/handle made of? It could be steel or an aluminium alloy - maybe brass.

Jack

Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on June 28, 2016, 11:10:17 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on June 28, 2016, 10:14:32 PM
Wood - really? The thread looks brass. It might be a British/Commonwealth receiver that is brass with an Ebonite coating.

Whatever it is, it was dry under the paint. Refreshed the surface and it darkened the surface. No brass on it. Not wood. Could be a mottled Bakelite. It is really light in weight. The broken edge, the thread area, does not show the porous substrate I've seen on broken Bakelite.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Pourme on June 28, 2016, 11:13:01 PM
When I enlarge the reciever, it does look wooden. Great find!..
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on June 29, 2016, 05:32:39 AM
John....every phone room needs Lamps. I wouldn't be so hasty as to throw out the threaded screw in part. This will look great when completed....Doug
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: cloyd on June 29, 2016, 09:46:39 AM
Teleplay,
I understand your attraction to the Mercedes dial.  They are very cool.  8)  Isn't the finger wheel alone worth as much as you paid?  Good luck sleuthing on the receiver material!  :)
Tina
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: rdelius on June 29, 2016, 10:02:44 AM
That is a WE hard rubber rec shell. the dial is a type 23?.Note holes in the chassis for mounting it and the fingerwheel holes are somewhat larger.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: AE_Collector on June 29, 2016, 11:38:25 AM
I think the Type 23 went to a conventional looking AE number card and holder though the card/holder may have been slightly smaller diameter than the more familiar card/holder. Being an early Type 21 stick I  think it possible that it originally came with a Type 18 or a Type 23 dial.

Terry
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on June 29, 2016, 12:46:41 PM
Quote from: rdelius on June 29, 2016, 10:02:44 AM
The dial is a type 23?.Note holes in the chassis for mounting it and the fingerwheel holes are somewhat larger.

Dials made either side of 1923 can be difficult to tell apart but I don't think this finger wheel or the presence of the mounting holes on the rear are definitive evidence of a Type 23 dial. The finger holes were actually enlarged on the Type 18 Mercedes.

This dial looks like a Type 18 because of the finger wheel, number card retainer and the main spring/off normal cam but each can be substituted. The cut of the worm wheel (drive) looks like a Type 23 but that also can be substituted.

One would have to first define a Type 23 dial and then compare the dial with that definition. The most significant differences between the Type 18 Mercedes and the Type 23 are in the governor, its thrust bearing and the worm wheel. Most are hard to see without disassembly but the worm wheel difference is obvious - the Type 23 worm wheel is laminated.

Unfortunately the worm wheel can't be checked in the pictures of this dial; we need a picture about 45 degrees off the axis to see any lamination.

By the way, Type 18 is not the official name for a 1918 model Mercedes dial; I use it for convenience. For that matter, the name Mercedes is not official either. The Mercedes Benz emblem didn't look like a star in a circle until about 1980.

Jack

Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on June 29, 2016, 08:32:15 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on June 29, 2016, 12:46:41 PMOne would have to first define a Type 23 dial and then compare the dial with that definition. The most significant differences between the Type 18 Mercedes and the Type 23 are in the governor, its thrust bearing and the worm wheel. Most are hard to see without disassembly but the worm wheel difference is obvious - the Type 23 worm wheel is laminated.

Unfortunately the worm wheel can't be checked in the pictures of this dial; we need a picture about 45 degrees off the axis to see any lamination.

Here's the worm wheel. It is laminated. What is the best angle to get a shot of the governor and excuse my ignorance here, what or which is the thrust bearing?

Being a laminated worm wheel, do that make this a Type 23 or could it be a Type 18 with a 23 worm wheel? A Frankendail or sorts

And, yes, it is a bit oily. The quick cleaning followed by massive oil was to get it to turn free. It would not return even when forcing it a bit. Must have been a lot of built up crud holding it in place. The extra oil softened up whatever was the problem but the dial does need a good cleaning and re-oiling with minimal oil.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on June 29, 2016, 09:18:23 PM
That's a Type 23 worm wheel.

The thrust bearing is on the end of the governor shaft. A Type 23 dial uses a ball bearing and the Type 18 uses a jewel bearing.

At this point I think it is a hybrid Type 18/23. This may have happened during factory or operating company workshop refurbishment.

Here is a summary of the development of the Type 18 and Type 23 dials by H. F. OBERGFELL, Development Engineer, Automatic Electric Inc. from AT:

Type 18 Dial:
In 1918 further improvements were made. The shunt spring group was separated from the impulse spring group. This was done to avoid the critical adjustments between a shunt spring and its corresponding impulse spring in which the lower shunt spring made contact with the upper impulse spring. The ratchet arrangement of the main gear was also changed, the clock spring was eliminated and a hardened dog held by a phosphor bronze spring was substituted. In addition, the finger holes in the finger plate were enlarged to one-half inch in diameter (the previous holes were 15/32 inch), to permit of more convenient operation of the dial, as well as greater visibility for the numbers.

Type 23 Dial:
Still more improvements were brought about in 1923 the laminated worm wheel and ball-bearing governor were introduced. The earlier models of the small type used a jewel bearing to counteract the thrust of the worm. In order to secure a more uniform type of thrust bearing, and to eliminate the difficulties encountered by soft jewels and uncertainties of jewel bearings in general, the ball-bearing type was substituted. The thrust bearing consisted of a ball race, hardened, highly polished and concaved, and a single very high grade steel ball held loosely in position between the hardened, highly polished end of the worm and the ball race. This type of bearing has been subjected to innumerable tests one of which represented over seven hundred million revolutions, proving it to be the most suitable type of thrust bearing for this purpose.
The design of the governor wings was also altered, phosphor bronze formed in a cup shape being used, and the fly balls made of brass with an insert of fiber. This construction entirely eliminated any abrasive action between the fly balls and the governor cup. The laminated type of worm wheel was substituted for the solid bronze type. This consisted of two bronze discs inclosing a fiber disc. After being cut the worm wheel was subjected to a temperature high enough to exclude moisture, and then treated in oil in order to prevent further absorption of moisture. The laminated worm wheel absolutely prevented sticking between the worm and worm wheel, which was important since a dial is expected to operate satisfactorily for a great number of years without additional lubrication. The main spring was changed to a uniform diameter throughout its entire length, and the lever arm for the shunt springs was altered in order to secure a more positive action, as well as to make it easier to tension the main spring. The escutcheon for mounting the escutcheon cards was improved.


Jack
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on June 29, 2016, 09:21:42 PM
Of course none of this detracts from the fact that you made a very good buy.

Jack
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on June 29, 2016, 10:45:06 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on June 29, 2016, 09:18:23 PM
The thrust bearing is on the end of the governor shaft. A Type 23 dial uses a ball bearing and the Type 18 uses a jewel bearing.

Jack,

Thanks! Informative and making progress on this dial.

Here is the thrust bearing. It looks like a newer AE dial but smaller so I would assume it's a ball bearing thrust bearing. But I don't know, that's why I'm asking - and appreciate your help with this.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 01, 2016, 08:50:55 AM
A similar receiver photo from eBay. At least I know what cap should go with mine.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: unbeldi on July 01, 2016, 08:52:53 AM
Quote from: TelePlay on July 01, 2016, 08:50:55 AM
A similar receiver photo from eBay. At least I know what cap should go with mine.

Are you sure?   That looks awfully like a WECo 144.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: poplar1 on July 01, 2016, 10:18:16 AM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 01, 2016, 08:52:53 AM
Are you sure?   That looks awfully like a WECo 144.


As Robby already pointed out, John's receiver is Western Electric.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on July 01, 2016, 06:19:19 PM
John....way too long....pictures of your refurb. This will be great!...Doug
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 01, 2016, 07:45:06 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 01, 2016, 10:18:16 AM
As Robby already pointed out, John's receiver is Western Electric.

Yes, and that makes sense with the core being WE. The eBay photo was just for comparison of the shell, the mottled look, to mine. The eBay seller did not state or claim a manufacturer of the shell for sale.

Did AE use WE receivers on the AE 21? If so, which one(s).

Thanks for all  help on this project. I've never restored a stick before, one with missing parts, so this is all new to me.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on July 01, 2016, 07:49:51 PM
John....I don't think the AE 21 had a WE receiver.,....does it matter? Get a cap that fits...Oldphoneshop has a really good repro and start from there. This will be a killer phone or as a wise man said " every phone room needs a lamp." Okay...he is not that wise....Doug
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: AE_Collector on July 01, 2016, 10:44:47 PM
Yes AE had their own receivers. But as I have stated elsewhere, I cant tell one receiver from another in almost all cases, not even AE's from others. It would be great if we could get a receiver comparison topic going with some pictures.....in the "Telephone Component Identification" area.

Terry
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 02, 2016, 09:20:55 AM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on June 28, 2016, 10:20:29 PM
What is the shaft/handle made of? It could be steel or an aluminium alloy - maybe brass.

The hook, shaft and base are not brass. Too heavy for aluminum so that leaves steel or what ever they used.

=========

What is really sad upon removing the white paint is to look at what's under it. The cup, shaft and base once has a very tight, unchipped, nearly NOS japaned finish. It was horribly scratch almost down to the base metal with low grit sandpaper. As an example, here is the cup outside and inside. The inside is perfect, the outside speaks for itself. Yes, they needed to do that to get that white paint to stick but a black lamp phone would have looked so much better with the original, black, shiny japaned finish, IMHO, of course.

They even roughed up the mouthpiece but that's an easier fix.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: poplar1 on July 02, 2016, 09:27:31 AM
Here are two receivers that I believe are AE:

1st 2 pictures:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beautiful-Automatic-Electric-Candlestick-Telephone-Receiver-/162092200820

2nd group of pictures:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beautiful-Automatic-Electric-Candlestick-Telephone-Receiver-/152145112321

Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 02, 2016, 09:53:45 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 02, 2016, 09:27:31 AM
Here are two receivers that I believe are AE:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beautiful-Automatic-Electric-Candlestick-Telephone-Receiver-/152145112321

Thanks, poplar1,

With your two examples, AE_Collector started a new board that will be a good repository for receiver information, examples and photos of them. He put both of the above into that new board at

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16448.0


Now I know what the elusive AE receiver looks like. All of these receivers are pricey, some pricier than others. I saw that second on a eBay but thought the element was a newer version. I did find a the first one just now but at a higher price. As they say in theater, the fastest way to solve a problem is to throw money at it. I guess the prices are driven by availability. Only a few AEs versus many WE 144s. Anyway, will go with the first (magnetic) type which I hope is more authentic to an AE 21. Here's a picture of the one I found.

Thanks again for the help.

Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 02, 2016, 03:08:27 PM
Quote from: Doug Rose on July 01, 2016, 06:19:19 PM
John....way too long....pictures of your refurb. This will be great!...Doug

Not the final product, just what it looks like today (all paint removed). Nice "texture" on the face plate. It's now clean and at the restoration rebuilding point. 

Borrowed a diaphragm and cap off of a WE 144 for these photos. You can see how badly the japaned finish was ruined to get the white paint to stick. There are no markings anywhere on this phone, except for the dial.

Does the base mounting screw go under the felt with only a hole to access the screw or is it on top of the felt as shown?
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on July 02, 2016, 05:09:03 PM
Very Nice John....Doug
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: AE_Collector on July 02, 2016, 06:59:43 PM
Yeah the receiver with the AE capsule would be AE as even the contacts inside the receiver are either identical or virtually identical to those in the type 41 handset used on the 40 and 50 sets. These capsules would have been designed and introduced very late 30's for the new AE40 set. So that AE receiver with capsule could have been used on late model AE21's but not your early model AE21.

I added the pictures of the two AE receivers (that poplar1 posted) to the "Telephone Component Identification - Receivers" child board to try to get some more info posted there about AE and all other receivers. Here is the post:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16448.0

Terry
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: rdelius on July 02, 2016, 08:20:07 PM
The capsule type rec assy and bakelite transmitter were type 42  .Used for upgrades and later sets.watch out for repro type 42 shells.Do not have the internal threads to hold the brass spider and the rec cap curves inward around the holes. Origional ones the holes are in an embossed circle and will have the AE logo inside
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 02, 2016, 11:45:17 PM
Plugged the perch lamp hole tonight. Only took about two hours but would really have been an hour and a half if I hadn't tried a tangential experiment to see how quickly a high speed dremel bit will cut skin.  ???

Anyway, turned out quite well. Not good enough to leave it brass but since the perch was black japan to begin with, will look just fine after painting. Used a technique I discovered look ago from a gun smith on filling unwanted barrel and receiver holes. I'm sure most of you have done this in the past as needed.

After I took the paint off of the perch, I cleaned out the thread area and cut several notches in threads 2 or 3 turns down the hole as anchor points. Took a 3/8" fully threaded brass rod and cut a flat head slot in the end going into the perch, just in cash I wanted to remove the plug. Screwed the rod into the perch until it was tight, and not past the perch cord hold. Cut the rod off and ground it down to about 1/16" from the perch surface. Used a ball peen hammer to drive the rod into the hole to expand the rod tight into the hole, catch the anchor points and fill some of the surface area. Used a file to shape it to the perch contours. Finished it off with various grades of sandpaper and a buffing wheel. Due to the tapping of the hole, some of the threads at the surface still show but those can be filled prior to painting to get a smooth surface.

A quick and cheap ($1.89 for the 1' rod and I only used an inch) and will do just fine with filler in the thread surface depressions and several coats of paint.

Another step in the process completed.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: WEBellSystemChristian on July 03, 2016, 12:23:32 AM
Nice work, John! Before painting, you could smear some Bondo around the edges of the filled hole, and sand it down smooth with some 400 grit after curing.

Great work so far!
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: unbeldi on July 03, 2016, 09:54:55 AM
Perhaps you can fill the rest of the 'notches' from the threads with solder.   According to the original introduction articles, the neck is made from aluminum bronze, not brass, but I think Al-bronze can also be soldered.
Although the pictures appear to show a metallic sheen on the neck, the article describes it as being finished with black enamel.


Ref: Automatic Electric, ''Type 21'': The Lastest and Best in Telephone Instruments, Automatic Telephone, Sept.–Oct. 1922 page 100. (attached)
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 03, 2016, 07:42:12 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 03, 2016, 09:54:55 AM
Perhaps you can fill the rest of the 'notches' from the threads with solder.   According to the original introduction articles, the neck is made from aluminum bronze, not brass, but I think Al-bronze can also be soldered.

unbeldi, good idea.

Tried it and successfully filled the largest 2 of the 10 or so thread gaps. The other gaps or pits were just too small to get the solder into them in that the perch is a huge heat sink and while the iron could stick solder on top of those small pits, the point of the iron was so large that it took up the gap and moving it a bit to try to get solder to flow into the small gaps resulted in the solder beading on the surface because the adjacent soldering iron tip was not hot enough the warm up the perch. What I did get in is shown in the left and center images below.

So, on to trial 2, something else. I've had very good success using water thin cyanoacrylic (superglue) on quite a few other things so with magnification, placed a small amount in each surface pit. Let it dry for a few hours and sanded smooth. Only needed a second coat some of the larger ones to get to a smooth sanded surface (right picture below). While they show visibly, running a sharp needle over them proved to me the puts were filled, were smooth the adjacent surface. Actually, the plugged area is smoother than the rest of the perch that still shows some the the japan varnish originally applied. Will have to rough up the plug area before painting to get it to match and the paint to stick.

Does anyone have a photo or catalog image of the transmitter that fits into this cup and faceplate?
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on July 03, 2016, 08:55:59 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 03, 2016, 09:54:55 AM
Ref: Automatic Electric, ''Type 21'': The Lastest and Best in Telephone Instruments, Automatic Telephone, Sept.–Oct. 1922 page 100. (attached)

Notice that that article shows the original and apparently short lived "tall perch" version of the AE 21.

Jack
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: AE_Collector on July 03, 2016, 09:27:38 PM
Hadn't noticed that...and hadn't realized that there was a tall perch version. Interesting.

Terry
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: WEBellSystemChristian on July 03, 2016, 10:30:15 PM
I like the tall perch version more; it looks more stately than the 'hunched-over' look of the later one.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on July 03, 2016, 11:27:44 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on July 03, 2016, 09:27:38 PM
Hadn't noticed that...and hadn't realized that there was a tall perch version. Interesting.

Terry

Here is a comparison.

Jack
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: AE_Collector on July 03, 2016, 11:44:30 PM
Great pictures, thanks for the pictures Jack. Are they yours?

Looks like a good start for a "Telephone Component Identification - AE Transmitters, faceplates, cups etc" topic.

Terry
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on July 03, 2016, 11:49:28 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on July 03, 2016, 11:44:30 PM
Great pictures, thanks for the pictures Jack. Are they yours?

Looks like a good start for a "Telephone Component Identification - AE Transmitters, faceplates, cups etc" topic.

Terry

Not mine but I have some - except the dials are reversed. The Type 23 dial is on my older (tall perch) phone.

Jack
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: AE_Collector on July 04, 2016, 12:02:03 AM
Now that is what I identify as a type 23 dial with the "modern looking" number card and retainer on the smaller dial.

Terry

Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 08, 2016, 08:05:32 PM
This is the restored perch with its first coat of primer/paint right out of the oven. The patch turned out well. Only needs a little sanding and two coats of paint now.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on July 08, 2016, 08:13:38 PM
John....amazing!....Doug
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Dennis Markham on July 08, 2016, 11:17:55 PM
Nice, John.  Remarkable!

Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Kenton K on July 09, 2016, 01:40:40 AM
Very nice!!!
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 09, 2016, 05:07:12 PM
Moving on to the base and stick, I was thinking of way to protect the brass cord grommet on the back of the base. Looking closely at it, I could see a slight ring of black around the grommet where it met the base, the japan black left over after the lamp creator's sanding. After a week, I came up with this idea which seems to be working nicely.

Using a machine screw with a large washer on the inside, I put a 5/8" finishing washer on the screw, a flat washer on top of it and a wing nut to tighten it down. The 5/8" washed was a bit too small so taping the cup side to a piece of flat metal, I put it into my bench vise and squeezed it down a little bit, making the cup outside diameter larger. Had to do it twice to get it large enough to cover the grommet. Installed nicely.

This is a picture of that "MacGyver" mounted on the base in my spray cabinet with one coat of primer applied. That really is dark grey paint, just a poor light source making it look brownish.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 10, 2016, 06:37:04 AM
I need some help here. What goes into this face plate and cup?

It's a solid brass face plate with no markings and the cup seems to be original to the perch. (The paint is no longer on there pieces)

All the transmitters I have seen or am familiar with are bolted to the back of the face plate in one way or another but this face plate shows no such mounting holes. Almost looks light it might screw into the face plate by way of edge threads. I been looking at transmitters on eBay but haven't seen an AE that would seem to fit. Actually, haven't seen any AE transmitters.

Is this the correct face plate? And given a correct face plate, what does the transmitter look like?

Thanks for any pictures, diagrams and/or links to sources.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: poplar1 on July 10, 2016, 06:51:58 AM
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15338.msg159326#msg159326
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 10, 2016, 07:06:40 AM
poplar1,

Thanks for the quick reply.

Good news is I have the correct cup and face plate. And, yes, it does screw into the back of the face plate.

Bad news, finding that transmitter.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: poplar1 on July 10, 2016, 07:14:09 AM
The transmitter shown in the photo is apparently a 5C dated 1927.
The 6C transmitter is shown in the 1934 AE Catalog:
(See page 32)
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/1770-aeco-catalog-4055-june-1934-ocr-tl
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 15, 2016, 07:52:08 PM
Another question.

The AE 21 came gutted but I found a terminal strip. Question is, how did they insulate the terminal strip from the metal mount, stand off spacers or non-conducting gasket?   ( Sorry for the bad terminology )
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: AE_Collector on July 15, 2016, 10:18:10 PM
Sort of bad news....a much thinner piece of Bakelite the same pattern as the terminal strip. You might be able to use fiber washer spacers where the three screws go through to hold it to the metal backing or maybe even metal washers for that matter to lift the terminal strip up off of the metal enough.

Terry
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: stub on July 15, 2016, 10:42:44 PM
TelePlay,
               The thin piece ( 1/32") of bakelite that Terry shows goes first and the 3 fiber washers ( 1/16" thick )go next on the mounting screw holes and the terminal strip , with the mounting screws , that's what's on mine.   stub
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on July 15, 2016, 10:48:25 PM
Terry and Ken,

Thanks, I think I can replicate a reasonable facsimile.

Makes sense that they used both an insulating "gasket" and stand off washers given the construction of and the components on the terminal strip.


Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: AE_Collector on July 15, 2016, 11:11:07 PM
I don't have the fiber washers but my 21 has been played with a lot. Shouldn't really be needed as the thin Bakelite insulates the back of the metal terminal from the medal and the terminal screws are centred to pass through the larger holes in the metal backplate without touching the metal. Using washers as well would allow for the thickness of the metal part of the terminals without warping the main Bakelite terminal strip at all.

Terry
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on August 02, 2016, 09:51:56 PM
After a bit of a restoration detour to get my top lift lantern done, I just finished the drilled perch which looked like this . . .

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16425.0;attach=144315;image)

. . . and then this . . .

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16425.0;attach=144477;image)

. . . and then this . . .

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16425.0;attach=144541;image)

. . . and now this with its last coat of paint baked on. Turned out very nice. It looks better in real life, the camera is indeed unforgiving.

Overall, it took a lot of time but it was a great learning experience and as it will sit on my desk, I will know what went into it to get it there.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: WEBellSystemChristian on August 02, 2016, 10:31:56 PM
Great job John! The wound looks completely invisible! ;)
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Dennis Markham on August 03, 2016, 05:41:44 AM
Amazing repair, John!  Can't wait to see the project upon completion.

~Dennis
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on August 14, 2016, 11:52:54 AM
Started to work on a subset for the stick, an originally painted black AE Monophone ringer/subset wood box.

I found something that worked quite well for me when trying to refinish/restore the front door, and the back panel as well.

As manufactured long ago, it is a painted black, finger jointed, hard wood box. The front cover was quite dinged with dents, scratches, abrasions and quite a few areas where the black paint was chipped off showing the brown wood. I wanted to keep the character of the cover, all black but with the "as found" look. The rest of the box was in good shape except for the back which had thick, white wall paint on it on two lower edges/corners.

Started with the front cover first. Gently sanded the surface to get rid of edges and then went over it with 0000 steel wool soaked in Howard's Restore-a-Finish to clean the surface. Wiped off all residue after it dried. That left a clean, black painted, smooth surface with a lot of brown wood showing.

After trying a couple of things on scrap wood, I found a mixture that worked well, and fast. The intent was to make the brown wood black but keep the original color and surface character as found. Did this by mixing 1 teaspoon dark shellac, 1/2 teaspoon of ethyl alcohol to thin the shellac and 4 drops of black Aluminite Resin Dye. Aluminite dye, like shellac, is a resin so they did mix well. Mixed it up and applied it to the wood with a balled up cotton rag. Simple dipped the rag into the mixture and ran it over the wood with the grain.

The thinned mixture let me cover the entire front cover before it started to dry. Within a few minutes, it was dry enough to layer on another coat. I put move on the bare wood areas. The good areas got two coats, the chipped areas got 4 to 5 coats. This was all done in less than 20 minutes.

The paint on the back was thick and tough. Several applications of stripper didn't do much. Had to sand it off down to near bare wood. Once off, started with the Restore-a-Finish and ended up putting 5 coats on the bare wood areas and two on the rest of the piece to make the finish uniform.

Let each side dry overnight, cut the shiny surface down with 0000 steel wool and gave it a coat of Minwax paste wax. Buffed it out and took pictures.

So, I now have a nicely finish wood box that is near to original black. I assumed the sides were close to original in color and final finish so made the front and back match. Didn't do anything to the insides other than wipe the wood with a wet cloth. Have to finish the metal work and re-wire it to match my AE 21 (planning on adding a 101A per the AE booster circuit found on the TCI for AE 21 sticks. This ringer came with a 1 uF and 5 uF capacitor. Will post final pictures when I get the ringer back in.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on August 14, 2016, 08:08:30 PM
Good work John.

Glad to see the cabinet being refurbished rather than "de-blacked" and varnished. I'm dot sure what the numbers were but you are lucky to have a finger jointed cabinet. Many were butt jointed and stapled.

Does the bell ring at 20Hz or are you going to modify/replace it?

Jack
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on August 14, 2016, 09:14:04 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on August 14, 2016, 08:08:30 PM
Does the bell ring at 20Hz or are you going to modify/replace it?

Thanks, Jack. It's becoming a major project but it's interesting and fun to sort of create an un-Frankenphone from parts.

Yes, the ringer does work at 20 Hz. I had a continuity issue with the coils and posted that in the "Troubleshooting and Repair" board, I thought a more appropriate place to discuss that interesting problem that was a bit difficult to "see." It's at this link:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16564.0

It looks like this ringer box was used with a desk set and I don't have any idea of what would have been in the desk set to complement the ringer and it's two capacitors. It must have been a side tone set up unless their was an induction coil in the desk set.

I hope to fit a 101A in the box per AE wiring diagrams for an AE 21 stick subsets at the TCI site to get an anti-side tone stick unless I physically can't.

I was surprised to find a 5 uF cap in the box. I would assume the 1 uF was for the ringer (the diagram on the door is hard to read) and the 5 uF was the talk circuit. Maybe the other way around. The wiring diagrams show two caps but don't put a value on one of them. Any thoughts on this? Rewiring from scratch will begin in a month or so and will most likely have questions then.

I paid $20 for the box plus $15 shipping (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Antique-Telephone-Ringer-Box-with-Bells-Steam-Punk-/322178964233). No one else bid on it and looking at the eBay pictures might explain that. It came dirty but I think that combined with my once gutted, painted, ex-lamp phone AE 21 stick with a Mercedes dial will look very nice on my desk. It may not be 100% authentic but it will work.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on August 14, 2016, 09:53:23 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on August 14, 2016, 09:14:04 PM
It looks like this ringer box was used with a desk set and I don't have any idea of what would have been in the desk set to complement the ringer and it's two capacitors. It must have been a side tone set up unless their was an induction coil in the desk set.

It may have been AST (see attachment)

Quote
I was surprised to find a 5 uF cap in the box. I would assume the 1 uF was for the ringer (the diagram on the door is hard to read) and the 5 uF was the talk circuit. Maybe the other way around. The wiring diagrams show two caps but don't put a value on one of them. Any thoughts on this? Rewiring from scratch will begin in a month or so and will most likely have questions then.

AE did use some fairly large talk capacitors and in your case, the value of the ringing capacitor was determined partly by the ringing frequency.

Jack
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: unbeldi on August 18, 2016, 08:45:59 AM
AE used 4 µF and 5 µF values for the talk capacitor in the circuits that used the later, i.e. WECo-style, AST circuit. I think it was introduced with the AE 40.

The earlier circuits, including the AE34 type circuit, used only one 1 µF capacitor for the metallic ringing circuit, or two 1 µF for grounded ringing.

I seem to read that the label on your subset states "For NO. 11 Monophone".  This probably explains the lack of induction coil, it was built into the handset, but I would have to search to see whether that ever required such a large capacitor.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Jack Ryan on August 18, 2016, 09:27:43 AM
Quote from: unbeldi on August 18, 2016, 08:45:59 AM
I seem to read that the label on your subset states "For NO. 11 Monophone".

So it does, I didn't see that - even though that is the circuit I posted.

The talk capacitor is 1uF but I can't see what the bell cap should be.

One of the capacitors in the unit is a replacement - which is which?

Jack
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on August 19, 2016, 11:27:27 PM
Work week over so time to catch up.

Yes, the door diagram state "Bell Box for No. 11 Auto Elec Monophone." The door diagram is not original as it was pasted over a larger diagram which is lost forever. Top diagram very tightly attached to bottom label.

In the image below, the diagram on the left is what is shown on the door (there is no value on the ringer cap, just MF). The right side shows the bell box wiring as received. Looks like the box was being used as an extension ringer with grounded (yellow) ringing. The only three wires screwed into the terminal strip were Green, Yellow and Red on terminals 4, 5 and 6 when counting from left to right.

As received, they were using the 1 uF (AE D6897 stanped 1 MF) capacitor (which tests out to 1.63 uF) for the ringer and the other cap (which has a paper label attached to it that darkened with age to unreadable but tests to 5 uF) was in the talk circuit, just the opposite of the AE diagram which has the 1 uF cap in the ringer circuit. Maybe someone just swapped out the cap connections when converting it to an extension ringer.

None of the wire colors stated on the door diagram match anything in the box.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on August 21, 2016, 03:49:45 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on August 19, 2016, 11:27:27 PM
As received, they were using the light gray 1 uF (AE D6897 stamped 1 MF) capacitor (which tests out to 1.63 uF) for the ringer and the other dark brown to black cap (which has a paper label attached to it that darkened with age to unreadable but tests to 5 uF) was in the talk circuit, just the opposite of the AE diagram which has the 1 uF cap in the ringer circuit.

With a 30x loupe, I was able to make out what was printed on the dark brown, lower condenser. It reads

A.E. CO
CHICAGO
M.F. 2  TYPE D-6891
INSPECTED BY __________

but it tests to 5.0 uF. Anyone have the specs for a D-6891?

========================

Ran across the second image in my bell box file. Maybe this is the reason no one else wanted to buy the ringer. That's what it looked like when received.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: unbeldi on August 21, 2016, 05:07:53 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on August 21, 2016, 03:49:45 PM
With a 30x loupe, I was able to make out what was printed on the dark brown, lower condenser. It reads

A.E. CO
CHICAGO
M.F. 2  TYPE D-6891
INSPECTED BY __________

but it tests to 5.0 uF. Anyone have the specs for a D-6891?

========================

Ran across the second image in my bell box file. Maybe this is the reason no one else wanted to buy the ringer. That's what it looked like when received.

The D-6891 is listed in Catalog No. 4055 (1934) with a capacity of 2 µF, and a size of 4.5" x 2" x 1".
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on September 17, 2016, 05:44:31 PM
After a few weekends of invention, the transmitter is finally done.

The lamp phone did not have a transmitter in the face plate and the face plate had threads for a Type 3 transmitter, IIRC the Type. Could not find a Type 3 transmitter but did find a complete SC transmitter with a Type 5, if I got that number right. Anyway, that is the 4 screw mount transmitter type so had to match the Type 5 transmitter to a Type 3 larger cup. Had to use the cup because the SC cut mount did not match to my perch. Needed one of those adapters mentioned on the forum every now and then.

So, starting with a 1/4" wide foot long brass bar, I bent it into a 2.9" diameter circle and soldered the ends together. The first brass bar I used was 0.135" thick (way too thick because I forgot to divide the difference by 2 when calculating what I needed - the fat circle one on the left ended up to be hand bending practice) so bent another circle out of 0.067 thick material (the one on the face plate) and after bending and bonding it to fit the face plate, cut the outside down until it fit nicely into the cup. The longer screws shown were used to check the 4 holes drilled in the brass adapter (would have been nice to buy one for $5 but no such luck).

After that, assembly of all the parts was quick and easy. Second image shows the parts front and back. Third image show partial assembly and the final product.

The transmitter tuned out quite well, at least to meet my expectations. Now, only one more thing to make before I can begin to assemble the stick and then make the internal wire harnesses for the subset and the stick and then connect the line to the subset to the phone. Piece of cake, right? Might get it done by Christmas, but which year, not sure yet.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on September 18, 2016, 12:26:06 PM
Just a partial, gravity held re-assembly but just had to do this to see how it would work out, and how it has changed so far from as received. It's not going to be worth selling but I sure did learn a lot so far in trying to rebuild this into a working phone, be it a bit of franken or not.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Pourme on September 18, 2016, 02:25:56 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on September 18, 2016, 12:26:06 PM
Just a partial, gravity held re-assembly but just had to do this to see how it would work out, and how it has changed so far from as received. It's not going to be worth selling but I sure did learn a lot so far in trying to rebuild this into a working phone, be it a bit of franken or not.
Talk about effort!... You have done more to and for that phone than I could imagine..... What a big difference!
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on September 24, 2016, 07:18:06 PM
Quote from: Pourme on September 18, 2016, 02:25:56 PM
Talk about effort!...

Ever start a project you thought would be a piece of cake and end up running head first into both a time pit and a money pit? Just finished creating the last physical item I needed to complete the phone, the insulator to keep the terminal strip metal parts from coming into contact with the phones metal mounting plate. That thin piece AE_Collector showed in this photo

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16425.0;attach=145115;image)

Bakelite sheets are hard to find so after a bit of research, I settle on a 0.06" thick Black Paper Base Micarta Laminate Sheet, a polycarbonate material. Got it from ePlastics in 12" x 12" sheets for $2.84 a sheet plus S&H (5 sheets for $24), their part number XBLK0.060X12X12. Only place that would ship a small quantity of small sized sheets for a reasonable price.

I settled on a NEMA XX grade (http://www.eplastics.com/Paper_Phenolic_Sheet) which I hoped would be easy to work - WRONG! Discovered trying to cut one at a time resulting in failure so glued four 3" x 5" pieces together with rubber cement and put a size matching piece of soft white plastic on the top and bottom of the stack. Using a template created from the phones mounting plate, first drilled the 3 small mounting holes, bolted the stack together and then drilled the large holes. Then cut the stack into the final shape.

In the photo, started with a 12" square sheet, the template, the stack and the terminal strip to be mounted (missing from the lamp phone purchased). The center image shows one insulating strip from the stack and place it on the back side of the terminal strip. The image on the right shows the terminal strip correctly mounted and the 3 "extra" insulating strips.

A lot of time but learned, the hard way, a few new techniques in the area of "made out of whole cloth" and I'm glad I didn't clock my time spent so far on this part and the rest of the phone. Have a rough idea of parts costs which goes to the money pit comment. But, hey, it's a hobby so it's supposed to be all that, right?

Next project is to create all of the wiring for the stick and the ringer box, and hope it works . . . 
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: AE_Collector on September 24, 2016, 07:38:38 PM
Wow, what a process! I wish I had 1/10 of the energy needed to work on a project like that to restore an old phone.

Nice work John and good luck with the wiring harness!

Terry
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Pourme on September 24, 2016, 09:39:41 PM
I agree with Terry...thanks for sharing your  progress with this stick. I wish I had the ability to put my prized candlestick in as good condition as you are doing!

Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on September 25, 2016, 03:37:04 AM
Couldn't sleep so went into the dungeon to get a head start on Sunday's work - wait, it is Sunday, oh well.

I was surprised to get this thing back together from memory and didn't have any parts left over, or missing anything either.

It may not be catalog authentic but is does look nice, at least to me.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Pourme on September 25, 2016, 11:06:44 AM
Posted at 3:37 am....you did good while I slept!
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: WEBellSystemChristian on September 25, 2016, 12:11:47 PM
Beautiful work, John!! ;)
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on September 25, 2016, 12:24:04 PM
Amazing job John.....it looks fantastic!! I am happy to see I am not the only one with a dungeon  ...Doug
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: AE_Collector on September 25, 2016, 07:39:55 PM
Ask him for some pictures of his "telephone restoration shops"!

Terry
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on September 25, 2016, 08:17:25 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on September 25, 2016, 07:39:55 PM
Ask him for some pictures of his "telephone restoration shops"!

Terry,

If I don't post that photo of my dungeon I sent you earlier this year, you will, right?

This photo of my workshop was taken earlier this year, January or so, when I had just finished making the Find of the Year Trophy (center left in the photo) for presentation after the poll ended. You can see it sitting on the left side center on the bench away from the room's main path so it wouldn't get bumped, fall to the floor and break, like that's never happened in the past.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on October 03, 2016, 10:56:48 AM
Every time I turn around, something else needs fixing.

Working on wiring the phone, I discovered that the "lamp builder" cut the ears off of two leaf springs, a thin one and the outer spring thick one.

Got two brass strips, about 0.04 and 0.02 inches thick each, and cut out the missing ears. Next step is connecting them. Thought of wiring the short stubs but didn't want to take the change of a short, being so close to the pile up so will extend the ears or tabs to normal positioning.

I bet it was easier to make the lamp out of the phone than it is for me to make a phone out of that lamp.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: rdelius on October 03, 2016, 06:48:30 PM
AE switches of that vintage have some common parts.AE wall telephone switch pile ups should help
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on October 04, 2016, 02:14:20 PM
Quote from: rdelius on October 03, 2016, 06:48:30 PM
AE switches of that vintage have some common parts.AE wall telephone switch pile ups should help

Thanks, Robby.

That's good to know but I don't have an AE parts wall phone or a parts bin with this pile.

As such, I went forward with my thinking and it worked out well.

After cutting and filing the two new ears to a near exact match, I drilled each and matched them to the leaf. Used one strand of a power line cord, very fine copper, to string them together, to hold them in place for soldering and after being soldered, would provide some strength, more than just a soldered butt connection.

Ground off the solder, brushed it near level, fine brushed the joint and reassembled the hook switch. Thanks to Mr. Dremel and the appropriate tools, it didn't take long at all and both joints turned out to be "0" resistance joint.

Images show the steps taken to complete the repair and the final product.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Pourme on October 04, 2016, 05:33:38 PM
What a fine job....manufacturing parts!....Pretty cool to see what emerges from that dungeon! ^ ^ ^ ^
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: HarrySmith on October 06, 2016, 11:46:03 AM
Very creative, nice work!
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on October 07, 2016, 12:21:17 AM
Quote from: HarrySmith on October 06, 2016, 11:46:03 AM
Very creative, nice work!

Thanks, Harry.

Just finished wiring up the stick (transmitter and hook switch to the terminal strip) and all went well. Plan was to clamp two hemostats on the repaired leafs half way between the tip and the butt soldered joint to act as heat sinks when attaching the wires to the ends and that worked well.

To get the wire I was using correct on the terminals, I put a 1/4" of colored shrink tubing on each end. Worked well. Certainly not original factory but it works and no one will see it once it's buttoned up.

Next steps are wiring the dial, the subset and hooking everything together.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on October 07, 2016, 04:09:52 AM
Hard to put something down when it's going together.

Wired up the dial and installed it. Worked out well. Never done this before so I did it to look good, not match factory spec. After looking at the image, had to check the wiring and each lead off of the dial has at least 1/16" clearance from anything else metal.

Only problem was stripping cloth covered wire - anyone have a good way to do it?
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Pourme on October 07, 2016, 06:40:30 AM
Workin on phones at 4am....It is looking good, John.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on October 07, 2016, 04:51:53 PM
Quote from: Pourme on October 07, 2016, 06:40:30 AM
Workin on phones at 4am....It is looking good, John.

Yeah, when I get going on something, sleep takes a back seat.

Wired up the subset to include a 101A coil making the set up AST. I sure am glad they made those wood boxes with a removable back.

Only thing left to do is add the three external cords, and plug it in. One thing missing in the subset is the talk capacitor. I decided to take the 5 uF tin out to make room for the 101A and will add a capacitor between posts #5 and #6 (the two right posts) in the box. #5 is the "C" output from the coil to the phone through the cap. Since the coil, transmitter and receiver are "new" to the set up, I can adjust the capacitance to get the best results and then solder that value in place.

These are not the best photos. They are intended to show the wiring progress from as received to finished and the two components next to each other. Will take time taking the final photos once the external cords are attached.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on October 10, 2016, 05:15:35 PM
IT WORKS!

Went with the wiring diagram below using new cloth cords, a 2 conductor receiver and 4 conductor subset. On first fire up, rang and both transmit and receive worked. But going off hook to call out was intermittent and it would not dial out, but did produce loud pops.

Wiring was per diagram. But, found two problems. First was a bad spade lug on one of the shunt springs (open circuit bad) and the fiber spacer used to open and close the pulse springs was out of position - stopped with the pulse springs open.

Fixed both issues and it works great. Still have to play with the talk capacitor to get the best results and button it back up after partial disassembly.

Only question is I get a pop in the receiver when I lift if off hook. Any suggestions?

This was quite a project. Learned a lot (this was my first major restoration - and it was turning a gutted lamp into a phone) that will come in handy next time.

"After" pictures to follow in a few days.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on October 10, 2016, 07:45:38 PM
Quick question.

When dialing out on the stick with the receiver to my ear, I get a lot of mechanical feedback from the dial working on the metal base attached to the metal stick attached to the metal cut attached to the metal transmitter.

Was there a rubber gasket between the dial and the base or is that just the way it's supposed to sound, or sounder 95 years ago?
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: LarryInMichigan on October 11, 2016, 04:31:00 PM
To remove the finger wheel, first remove the finger stop, then gently twist the spring at the end of the red arrow (in the picture below) a bit so that it will slide out of the groove in the post.  You should then be able to remove the finger wheel by pulling it up from the dial.  To remove the number plate, you need to carefully bend the three copper wires at the green arrows upward so that they will not hold the plate to the dial housing.

Larry
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: unbeldi on October 11, 2016, 04:44:04 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on October 10, 2016, 07:45:38 PM
Quick question.

When dialing out on the stick with the receiver to my ear, I get a lot of mechanical feedback from the dial working on the metal base attached to the metal stick attached to the metal cut attached to the metal transmitter.

Was there a rubber gasket between the dial and the base or is that just the way it's supposed to sound, or sounder 95 years ago?

I have the same feedback on WECo stands as well. I would think it is typical for all dial desk stands.  I doubt that AE used any damping between dial and chassis either.
More effective than damping the dial/chassis contact would be to implement something at the perch/transmitter interface to dampen sound conduction into the transmitter assembly, because the switch hook causes similar problems, in fact all tapping and playing with the housing does.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on October 15, 2016, 02:28:00 PM
Okay, here's a technical problem that's beyond my current knowledge.

Was using the old 1.5 uF cap for the ringer in the subset. Ringer worked with my ring generator but not real well, kind of weak. The ringer has two 250 ohm coils and my meter does show 500 ohms across both coils.

I changed out the 1.5 uF cap for the old 5 uF cap (only room for one in the subset with the 101A coil added) and hooked the 5 uF into the talk circuit, a better use.

Put a 0.47 uF cap on the ringer and it did not work with either my Dsine 20 Hz ring generator or my 616 fed into L1 and L2 subset connections - normal use.

The ringer seems to be a SL AE ringer because it works just fine if I connect the ringer generator directly to the ringer terminals (no capacitor). But if I put the .47 cap in series, the ringer does not work with either the Dsine or the 616.

I put the 1.5 uF cap in series with the Dsine ringer circuit and the ringer rang weakly as it did before.

So, I got out my bread board and started to increase the capacitance. Ringer started to work fine with my Dsine when I got above 2 uF and continued to get a bit stronger with every 0.47 cap I added. Stopped at 3.9  uF.

But, while it rang with my Dsine attached to L1 and L2, the 616 still did not even vibrate the clapper at any capacitance. I checked the 616 with a 50's 500 and it rang just fine.

Question, what's going on and how do I fix it so the ringer works with my 616?


Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: unbeldi on October 15, 2016, 09:38:14 PM
Hmm, 500 ohm total resistance for a bridging ringer is rather low.  But it is rather high for a series-ringing circuit, most of those ringers are only 100 ohms or lower.

I wonder what the A.C. current is without ringing capacitor, i.e. directly connected to your DSine generator.  If you can measure that, measure also the voltage across the ringer.  That gives us an idea of the impedance of the ringer, which will be higher than the D.C. resistance, which is 500 ohms.

With a 3-4 µF capacity, I would guess that ringer to have at least REN 5.

A 0.47 µF capacitor is indeed probably too small for a low impedance ringer like this.  My guess would have been between 1 and 2 µF for a good value.

Hmm, is this ringer in any of the AE catalogs ?
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on October 16, 2016, 03:22:55 AM
Quote from: unbeldi on October 15, 2016, 09:38:14 PM
Hmm, 500 ohm total resistance for a bridging ringer is rather low.  But it is rather high for a series-ringing circuit, most of those ringers are only 100 ohms or lower.

I wonder what the A.C. current is without ringing capacitor, i.e. directly connected to your DSine generator.  If you can measure that, measure also the voltage across the ringer.  That gives us an idea of the impedance of the ringer, which will be higher than the D.C. resistance, which is 500 ohms.

With a 3-4 µF capacity, I would guess that ringer to have at least REN 5.

A 0.47 µF capacitor is indeed probably too small for a low impedance ringer like this.  My guess would have been between 1 and 2 µF for a good value.

Hmm, is this ringer in any of the AE catalogs ?

Learned something about the 616 tonight. It will not send ring voltage down a line unless it sees more than 0.47 uF capacitance on the line, however it does that.

Once I raised the ringer capacitance over 1 uF, both my ring generator and 616 activated the ringer.

----------------------

As for measurements, the Dsine ring generator produced about 20 VAC measured at L1 and L2 and about 22 VAC across the ringer terminals.

With a 2.063 uF capacitor in place both the ring generator and the 616 rang the bell nicely. The ring generator produced about 22 VAC at L1 and L1 and the 616 produced 32 VAC at those terminals.

The old AE cap I have measures 1.568 uF and when used alone produced a weak ring. Adding a 047 uF cap in parallel gave a nice ring with both ringing devices. So, 2.038 uF was a good ringing capacitance. Increasing the capacitance did not make the ringer work noticeably better.

Now, checking the AE catalog from 1905, the first catalog in which I found a ringer that looks like mine and then based on the resistance of my ringer, it appears I have a frequency ringer. I did not see any part numbers on the ringer (the label was well worn) so I went with a picture comparison.

My coil resistance is 502.5 ohms which is half way between the 33.3/42 Hz ringers at 528 ohms and the 50/54 Hz ringers at 476 ohms. This ringer was found in the AECO 1934 catalog. First image below is the part numbers and the second is the image from the part number page next to my ringer, taken with and without flash. Since my ringer worked with my Dsine 20 Hz ring generator from the start, I always assumed it was a SL ringer. That reed and no bias would prove me wrong on that assumption.

The above stated info was take from page 38 of the TCI document: AECO Catalog 4055 - June 1934 ocr Tl (http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/document-repository/catalogs-manuals/automatic-electric/doc_details/1770-aeco-catalog-4055-june-1934-ocr-tl)  on their site. The page states this ringer was for their compact ringer box and the box I have is indeed compact.

So, it rings best at 20 Hz with a 2 uF capacitor in series. The calculation of VAC, Hz, uF and ohms is beyond me. So, just put in a 2.2 uF cap and call it a project?

Any other way of doing this without modifying the ringer itself?
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: unbeldi on October 16, 2016, 08:41:56 AM
Quote from: TelePlay on October 16, 2016, 03:22:55 AM
Learned something about the 616 tonight. It will not send ring voltage down a line unless it sees more than 0.47 uF capacitance on the line, however it does that.

Once I raised the ringer capacitance over 1 uF, both my ring generator and 616 activated the ringer.

----------------------

As for measurements, the Dsine ring generator produced about 20 VAC measured at L1 and L2 and about 22 VAC across the ringer terminals.

With a 2.063 uF capacitor in place both the ring generator and the 616 rang the bell nicely. The ring generator produced about 22 VAC at L1 and L1 and the 616 produced 32 VAC at those terminals.

The old AE cap I have measures 1.568 uF and when used alone produced a weak ring. Adding a 047 uF cap in parallel gave a nice ring with both ringing devices. So, 2.038 uF was a good ringing capacitance. Increasing the capacitance did not make the ringer work noticeably better.

Now, checking the AE catalog from 1905, the first catalog in which I found a ringer that looks like mine and then based on the resistance of my ringer, it appears I have a frequency ringer. I did not see any part numbers on the ringer (the label was well worn) so I went with a picture comparison.

My coil resistance is 502.5 ohms which is half way between the 33.3/42 Hz ringers at 528 ohms and the 50/54 Hz ringers at 476 ohms. This ringer was found in the AECO 1934 catalog. First image below is the part numbers and the second is the image from the part number page next to my ringer, taken with and without flash. Since my ringer worked with my Dsine 20 Hz ring generator from the start, I always assumed it was a SL ringer. That reed and no bias would prove me wrong on that assumption.

The above stated info was take from page 38 of the TCI document: AECO Catalog 4055 - June 1934 ocr Tl (http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/document-repository/catalogs-manuals/automatic-electric/doc_details/1770-aeco-catalog-4055-june-1934-ocr-tl)  on their site. The page states this ringer was for their compact ringer box and the box I have is indeed compact.

So, it rings best at 20 Hz with a 2 uF capacitor in series. The calculation of VAC, Hz, uF and ohms is beyond me. So, just put in a 2.2 uF cap and call it a project?

Any other way of doing this without modifying the ringer itself?

I think, 2.2 µF is quite reasonable for a low impedance ringer like this. I would leave it this way. I think until ca. WW-I a 2 µF value was pretty standard for bridged ringers.
The REN value of the ringing bridge is probably between 2 and 3, closer to 3 than 2, not great by today's standards, but this is not a modern instrument.

I think you have found the reason for the somewhat weak response, in that it is a frequency-selective ringer.  The resonance point of these is off quite a bit from 20 Hz, so operating a 30-some or 40-some hertz ringer at 20 Hz is very inefficient and you can't adjust the resonance point sufficiently with capacitors anymore. At the resonance point the energy transfer from the electrical energy of the alternating current to the mechanical ringing action is at a maximum, so off-resonance the mechanical action rapidly decreases.  You can see this in the measurements I published here on the forum (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11948.0); included was a 1400 Ω WECo #8A ringer with a 1 µF capacitor in a 534A subset.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: unbeldi on October 16, 2016, 08:48:52 AM
The catalog table of ringer resistance values that you showed also explains the fact that frequency ringers were operated with much higher ringing voltages than straight-line ringers.  As the ringing frequency increases, the D.C. resistance is progressively lower, and therefor the ringer had to be operated at increasingly higher voltages to transfer sufficient energy. I think AE used up to 150 or 160 V for the highest frequency ringers (50 to 66 Hz).
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: AE_Collector on October 16, 2016, 12:57:37 PM
Hi tried looking at the ringer in your earlier pictures of your subset and from what I could see it looked normal (SL) to me but these pictures are certainly a frequency ringer. Of course we can see the clapper now which was hidden before.

Sounds as though you've got it working though which is always good as you can keep the original frequency ringer AND it rings!

Terry
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on December 25, 2016, 05:16:03 PM
Took the photos some time ago but finally got around to doing the best I could to put then into a before and after format.

The stick and dial were one purchase, the subset a second purchase. Lost count of the purchases needed to obtain parts or stuff to make parts and the hours spent refurbishing the two main parts.

In the end, the stick and subset cost about $70 including shipping and another $250 or so was needed for main parts, IIRC, including the correct transmitter and receiver, induction and two cloth cords and then there were all of the rest of the small parts used for whatever purpose. I left the subset as found, left the dings in place and kept the back paint which seemed to be original. The brass face plate balances the dial.

So, this phone as it sits on my desk is an official member of the "300 Club," a phone in which more than 3 times the original purchase price was dumped into it to get to the end product. Some would call it a money pit and on a bad day, I might agree.

Anyway, it was a fun, learning experience and while I now have not a perfect as built in the factory telephone, it's close enough for me, and very close if you don't look under the hoods.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: oldguy on December 25, 2016, 05:57:54 PM
Very nice John, lots of work, end result outstanding. I'll have to start working on my AE 21, after seeing yours.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: HarrySmith on December 25, 2016, 06:33:29 PM
Nice job! Looks great!
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on December 25, 2016, 07:08:31 PM
John....Beautiful, meticulous work. You should be very proud. Outstanding piece...Doug
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on December 26, 2016, 08:03:53 AM
Thanks for the compliments. It was fun and it turned out okay.

This is my favorite photo of the phone. Only thing I did not do was polish the finger wheel. Left it as received after cleaning. Just didn't want to mess with taking that dial apart.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Pourme on December 26, 2016, 07:11:59 PM
John,

Knowing what you went through to to get to get that phone to this point is impressive. You have preserved a piece of the past to live on for future generations to see and enjoy. Very nice & a job well done!
Benny
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: Dan/Panther on January 19, 2017, 01:02:46 PM
Nothing better than an excellent restoration. And this is one. Great work, great fabrication. So many good pieces have been relegated to the landfill, because the owner does not have the skills to accomplish the work that you have done.
I firmly believe that nothing is beyond repair.

D/P
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: TelePlay on March 30, 2017, 08:06:40 PM
A comment in this topic quite some time ago was critical of me calling this restoration, the total conversion of a stripped AE candlestick made into a lamp phone into a working phone with finding and rebuilding the correct subset, epic in that someone like me who had a fully equipped metal working shop was far ahead of the average forum member who would not have the power tools and equipment available to them that I had at my disposal to resulted in my hijacking my own topic with a discussion of my limited tools, work area and creativity.

Those replies have been split off and placed into this stand alone topic which has turned into a series of comments and replies showing what I have, what I have done and what I am doing with my total 2 square feet of work bench space.

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=19073.0

The new topic is a statement of fact with images and is meant as encouragement to new forum members who have little or no experience working with tools and chemicals.

This candlestick lamp phone conversion along with other things I have done or am doing are posted there as a statement of what can be done with not much in little space, nothing more.
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: NikeTelephone on May 06, 2018, 01:25:27 AM
Just Beautiful, wow!!! .. hope Mine turns out Half as good! Thanks for the Encouragement! :)
Title: Re: Snagged my first Mercedes Dial on an AE 21 Candlestick off of eBay
Post by: FABphones on June 27, 2022, 03:57:15 AM
Just found this older thread. An incredible transformation. Very thorough. Beautiful work on both pieces.

Bumping for others to read. Thanks for sharing.