My 1952 WE 500 arrived today.

[metdial]

My second acquisition arrived today!  It is a WE 500 dated 12/52 and looks to be in decent shape.  It is going to require a lot more cleaning than the 1961 I received last week.  The "cheesy sour" smell of the soft plastic case is nearly overwhelming!  My wife referred to it as a "smell-a-phone", and complained that she could smell the thing throughout the entire house.  I tried to reduce the fragrance of the case by giving it a short bath in a water/dish detergent mixture with a splash of bleach (wanted to try & kill what looked like some kind of mold in there).  This helped a little bit, but it is still quite pungent.  I have posted some pics. of it below to show the condition and the various dates I have found on it.

-On the subject of soft plastic cases, I am still pondering whether or not my 1961 phone, with the molded date marking of (P/61),  is indeed a soft case. It does have a peculiar sour smell to it, but is not nearly as strong as the "52.  I compared it with the '52's case (which is marked 11/2/56), and aside from the scent similarities, they both have that dull/dead sort of sound when you tap on them with your finger.   I would be interested to know if Dennis (who obviously knows a lot about this subject), or anyone else, thinks that I might have an unusual example that defies the general rule that "a molded date means hard plastic".

Both of the phones were set up for party line service & required the simple wiring modification to make them work (the '52 also needed the alternate bias spring setting to ring strongly). 

In comparing the dials of the two phones, I was struck by how much quieter & smoother the '52 dial rotates.  My first thought was that the '61 is in dire need of lubrication & perhaps I should not use it until I learn how to take it apart & service it.  I then noticed that the dial of the '52 is the model 7A, and the '61 has a 7D dial.  Is there a big difference in the way these dials sound and how smoothly they operate?  Or is it an issue of indadequate lubrication on the '61.  If anyone out there would like to help teach a newbie how to properly disassemble, clean & oil, and reassemble the WE 500 series of dials, I would really appreciate it ( heck, I would gladly pay for the knowledge & assistance).

One last thing, .......I was disappointed to find that the handset caps (while being of the 6 hole and "no center hole" variety), are plastic and not bakelite.  I can't remove the transmitter cap and do not have a hair dryer at present to attempt to loosen it with heat .  Does anyone have an alternative method for removing these stubborn caps?

Thanks for all of your help & opinions. 

[Dennis Markham]

Your phone sounds very nice.  (I don't see any photos, or did I misread that you were going to post some?).

With regard to the soft plastic case, I have been told by a couple of different collectors that anything was possible and that there have been occasions where cases were dated later but made with the Tenite (soft) plastic.  So if you think the '61 case is soft plastic and compares to the other one then it just may be.  One additional sign was the thickness of the plastic.  If you turn the case over and look at the bottom edge it is thicker (wider) than the hard plastic case.

With respect to the 7A dial, I believe that the 7A is much smoother than the 7C or7D.  The first one that I came across, the one on my 1950 model 500 is very quiet and smooth.  You need to be careful if you remove the finger wheel.  On some of the early 7A dials the dial is held together by the finger wheel nut.  I learned this the hard way when I removed the nut holding the finger wheel on and lifted the wheel off the little hub in the center of the dial.  The hub went flying past my ear...it could hurt if that thing hit you in the face!  What you can do is remove the nut while putting pressure on the wheel, then take a screw driver and push down on the hub as you lift off the wheel enough to get your hand under the finger wheel to hold it in place while you remove the wheel, then carefully replace the nut and tighten it down.

It is difficult to explain how to disassemble the dials for cleaning but I'll give it some thought and perhaps can simplify the process into words for a posting.  The later 7D dials were pressed together (the brass gear frames) rather than held together with screws.  Since they are held together with a crimp type attachment I wouldn't attempt to take one apart.  I'll post a few photos of what I'm talking about at another time.

I look forward to seeing photos of your "new" cheesy phone.

Added Info:  I see now that you have posted photos.  Note that the ringer is a C2A and not the more common later C4A ringer.  Also, it looks like the dial is attached with a 3-point attachment.  Is that correct?  A sure sign of the age.  Dials later had the third mounting hole but were not attached at three points.  The had little nubs on the edge of the dial that fit into holes on the mounting bracket to align the dial in the proper position so that when the cover is set into position it will be centered properly.

Dennis

[benhutcherson]

Looks like you got a really nice telephone. I only have one 7A dial, compared to a whole bunch of 7C and 7D dials, however my one 7A dial is definitely smoother than than any of the other #7s. The closest mechanical twin to the 7A is the #6, which is also a fine dial.

With regard to soft plastic: Earlier today, in fact, I was taking a close look at a 564HD key phone I have.

This particular telephone is dated to '63, with all dates matching. It has a 7D dial, and a G1 handset(with thermoplastic caps).

What's interesting is the case. It has a molded date of '63, and not a very strong odor(nothing like a 302 or early '50s 500). It does, however, have bakelite plungers. It's considerably thicker than an acrylic set, and the thickness is on par with a known soft plastic set. I'm positive that it's soft plastic, as it sounds like soft plastic when tapped, and just feels like it.

So, I do have a set even later than yours which is soft plastic.

I also have a '65 554 which I'm almost positive is soft plastic also, but I'll pull it down later and confirm.

[metdial]

Added Info:  I see now that you have posted photos.  Note that the ringer is a C2A and not the more common later C4A ringer.  Also, it looks like the dial is attached with a 3-point attachment.  Is that correct?  A sure sign of the age.  Dials later had the third mounting hole but were not attached at three points.  The had little nubs on the edge of the dial that fit into holes on the mounting bracket to align the dial in the proper position so that when the cover is set into position it will be centered properly.

Dennis


Thanks for your input Dennis.  I appreciate your time & effort as far as putting together a tutorial on how to disassemble, clean, & lubricate the various dials in the Western Electric arsenal.

I can't tell you if the '52 dial has a 3-point attachment at this time (I put the case back on and boxed it up to spare my wife any more unpleasant olfactory experiences).
I do have the '61 in front of me and I see what you're talking about with regard to the nubs on the 7D dial.  How can I identify if this dial is so thirsty for oil that it is in danger of stripping it's gears?  It does seem to rotate & return properly (I've made several calls with it), but it just sounds so much grittier and noisier than the 7A dial.  I don't want to risk damaging it because it is a nice date matched phone with many 1950's characteristics.

[McHeath]

That's a nice looking 52' 500 you got.  Personally I like the oddball smell of the soft plastic, but others mileage may vary.  I have a 61' 500 with a soft plastic shell, at least it smells like it, is thick, and has that dull sound.  It also has molded in date coding like the hard plastic shells. 

[benhutcherson]

I couldn't stand it-I went ahead and pulled down my 554.

It's not a '65, as I had in my head, but rather a '63.

In any case, it's also definitely a soft plastic set, but with a molded in date. This one also has the metal fingerwheel 7D dial, and a G1 handset with a 7-hole bakelite cap.

I can't help but notice that the later model soft plastic sets, including my '59 500(with the date stamped, not molded), and '63 desk phone cases, lack the characteristic cheesy smell present in older sets-including my early and mid-50s 500s, and 302s. I wonder if, perhaps, the smell comes from some sort of mold release or something else used in the manufacture of the plastic that was, perhaps, not used in later sets.

[Dennis Markham]

I have run into a couple of phones that have the date stamped along the inside edge that are NOT soft plastic.  Those instances, in  my case have always been on colored plastic sets, not the black phones.  One is mid-1959 which I think was the change-over time from Tenite to ABS plastic.  I bought the phone, an ivory 500 because of the condition and the dated plastic.  I THOUGHT it was soft plastic.  But when I got it home realized it was not.  No matter how many times I looked at it and verified the date it didn't change---hard plastic.  Bummer.  So despite the date the other clues pointed to hard plastic.  The "tapping" sound it made, the more brittle feel to the plastic and absence of that "cheesy" odor.  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's usually a duck.

The sets that appear to be soft plastic despite their manufacture date always SEEM to be black sets.  I don't know if that is true in all cases but in my personal experiences it seems to hold true.    I could probably count on one hand how many of those I have seen so I don't how common it actually was to produce them with Tenite into the early to mid 1960's.  Perhaps there is Western Electric documentation out there that would tell for sure.  Lore has it that anything was possible if there was left-over plastic material it would be used up until exhausted.  The manufacture of the plastic shells, from what I understand was farmed out to the Eastman-Kodak company.  Here is a link with a short blurb about Tenite and its properties.

http://www.eastman.com/Brands/Tenite/

There was recently discussion about this on the ATCA List.  I don't think there has been a conclusion with regard to exact dates that production in soft plastic occurred.  Going backward on the production scale there has also been discussion of when such production began.  It has been discussed that model 302's were made of the same soft plastic including 302's in color. 

Dennis

[benhutcherson]

I should probably add that my two later-date soft plastic sets are both black sets.

Apparently, black sets held out for a fair amount of time being made in the older way. As I said, the '60s soft plastic sets I have also have G1 handsets and metal fingerwheels. I have another later black 500 set, I believe from '64, that is hard plastic but has a metal fingerwheel 7D dial, and G1 handset.