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Neat 302 find at antique shop (First time poster)

Started by Ryan Foster, March 30, 2017, 11:24:02 PM

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Ryan Foster

Just started playing with old phones a few months ago. Many thanks to the posters here for the great tech info that has helped me before with my WE 2500, and WE 500.

The wife and I were looking for old phones at an antique shop in Oklahoma and she spotted this on the bottom shelf. I was looking for a grungy 302 to take apart and learn about, and this one has been great. We found another working 302 with a cracked plastic case, but without a dial and was able borrow the condenser from that unit to make this one work. Fiddled with it all afternoon and figured out the dial and handset were a bit older than the 1940 build date on the base.

We found a bunch of other neat stuff that day, but thought this was the best.

mentalstampede

That's a nice first 302. Interesting to see an E1 handset and a #4 dial on a phone with that late a date.
My name is Kenn, and I like telephones.

"Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something." --Robert Heinlein

Babybearjs

be sure to checkout www.oldphoneworks.com for replacement parts... clean it up and replace the cords.... will make for a beautiful phone...
John

TelePlay

Quote from: Ryan Foster on March 30, 2017, 11:24:02 PM
The wife and I were looking for old phones at an antique shop in Oklahoma and she spotted this on the bottom shelf.

First, welcome to the forum and second, how much did you pay for it?

Ryan Foster

#4
Quote from: TelePlay on March 31, 2017, 05:04:59 AM
First, welcome to the forum and second, how much did you pay for it?

The price was about $35. I ordered a set of cords, a dial card, and a dial gasket from http://www.oldphoneshop.com a couple of days ago. Need to check both sites out for prices and quality.

unbeldi

#5
Quote from: mentalstampede on March 31, 2017, 12:49:41 AM
That's a nice first 302. Interesting to see an E1 handset and a #4 dial on a phone with that late a date.

The set was most likely refurbished in the post-war period.  Demand was extremely high those years and sets were often reequipped with older parts.  Note that the 4H dial has the new contact arrangement of the 5H already.  However, it is interesting that the contacts are still the single-point type, not twin-forked yet.

It's not uncommon to find E1 handsets on post-war refurbishments even on plastic sets.  Sometimes the date stamps on the parts tell the exact history, the dates of the cords, testing or refilling dates on the transmitter, etc.

poplar1

#6
Ryan, can you verify whether or not the far right screw terminal on the dial has been restamped from "W" to "R", with the R being an ink stamp? If so, then this dial was originally a 2A-type which was converted to a 4H. The 2A-type dial was used on desk stands (candlesticks), wall sets, and pay phones, but did not have enough contact springs to be used with phones with handsets. So the contact spring assembly had to be removed, as well as the externally mounted finger stop.

Quote from: unbeldi on March 31, 2017, 11:20:51 AM
The set was most likely refurbished in the post-war period.  Demand was extremely high those years and sets were often reequipped with older parts.  Note that the 4H dial has the new contact arrangement of the 5H already.  However, it is interesting that the contacts are still the single-point type, not twin-forked yet.


The only "twin contacts" (bifurcated) on updated 4H dials, or 2A>4H conversions, were the BB-W receiver contacts.
I need to look for more examples, but it appears that this dial was converted in  late 1940 or in 1941:

2A>4H conversions

'39 -- '40:  2A>4H conversions with the same contact spring assembly as original 4H dials, with the W terminal next to the governor. (No twin contacts.)

late '40 -- '49:  2A>4H conversions with twin BB and W contact springs, with the W terminal located to the left of Y
                 late '40 -- '41 --  straight W contact spring
                 '42 -- '49  -- 2 offsets in W contact spring   
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Ryan Foster

#7
Quote from: poplar1 on March 31, 2017, 06:47:32 PM
Ryan, can you verify whether or not the far right screw terminal on the dial has been restamped from "W" to "R", with the R being an ink stamp? If so, then this dial was originally a 2A-type which was converted to a 4H. The 2A-type dial was used on desk stands (candlesticks), wall sets, and pay phones, but did not have enough contact springs to be used with phones with handsets. So the contact spring assembly had to be removed, as well as the externally mounted finger stop.

The only "twin contacts" (bifurcated) on updated 4H dials, or 2A>4H conversions, were the BB-W receiver contacts.
I need to look for more examples, but it appears that this dial was converted in  late 1940 or in 1941:

2A>4H conversions

'39 -- '40:  2A>4H conversions with the same contact spring assembly as original 4H dials, with the W terminal next to the governor. (No twin contacts.)

late '40 -- '49:  2A>4H conversions with twin BB and W contact springs, with the W terminal located to the left of Y
                 late '40 -- '41 --  straight W contact spring
                 '42 -- '49  -- 2 offsets in W contact spring

I had the phone and dial apart this evening to clean the case, and oil the slow dial. Attached are some better pictures of the dial. I noticed it looked like it had been apart at some point as there were odd scratches on the mechanism behind the ceramic dial face, and a little piece of paper. There also looked to be two filled screw holes for the old dial stop. The cleaning seemed to help as the dial return is much faster now. Also, there is a little "T" stamped on the finger stop.

unbeldi

The dial was a No. 2 dial and was converted.   Since the dial adapter is still from tan-colored rubber, the dial was likely installed before 1942 or so. Many new sets starting in 1941 already had black rubber buffers. I am assuming that the set, made only in 12/40, was perhaps originally a manual set without a dial originally. The telephone company installed the dial when it was needed. If it had a dial already, it would probably not have required service yet.

Next item to check are the dates on the brass cord sleeves. That will tell the likely installation period of that handset.

Ryan Foster

Quote from: unbeldi on April 01, 2017, 09:25:02 AM
The dial was a No. 2 dial and was converted.   Since the dial adapter is still from tan-colored rubber, the dial was likely installed before 1942 or so. Many new sets starting in 1941 already had black rubber buffers. I am assuming that the set, made only in 12/40, was perhaps originally a manual set without a dial originally. The telephone company installed the dial when it was needed. If it had a dial already, it would probably not have required service yet.

Next item to check are the dates on the brass cord sleeves. That will tell the likely installation period of that handset.

Thanks for the information! The rubber gasket was a hard mass that was difficult to remove. What are the "brass cord sleeves"?

unbeldi

#10
Quote from: Ryan Foster on April 01, 2017, 06:01:07 PM
Thanks for the information! The rubber gasket was a hard mass that was difficult to remove. What are the "brass cord sleeves"?

Sorry, I meant the cord stays at the end of the cords in the telephone set.  They have  wire S-hooks that keep the cords in one place and relieve stress from the individual wires that go to the components screw terminals.
The brass sleeves show punched the cord type, e.g. H3C or H3AA, cord length (4–0), quarter of manufacture (IV) and year (on either side of the seam).

Sometimes, the rubber of the dial adapters seems to just "melt" into some mass, and other times they are amazingly pristine and soft. Its purpose was to absorb sound transmission from the dial into the housing which would amplify the dial noise.  It's amazing to hear the difference with and without the buffer.

Ryan Foster

#11
Quote from: unbeldi on April 01, 2017, 06:49:40 PM

The brass sleeves show punched the cord type, e.g. H3C or H3AA, cord length (4–0), quarter of manufacture (IV) and year (on either side of the seam).


I was able to check the markings when I changed the cords today. The sleeve on the handset cord is zinc plated steel, and is marked "H3C, IV, 1940".
Here is how it looks cleaned up a bit: