Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Telephone Troubleshooting and Repair => Topic started by: eBass on September 02, 2015, 10:51:13 AM

Title: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 02, 2015, 10:51:13 AM
I just bought an AE 90 on eBay. I believe it is a Potted Network version similar to:

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/component/docman/doc_details/1873-ae-90a-ae90pot-tl?Itemid=11

Also looks similar to this wiring:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14596.0;attach=125196;image

That said, the Terminal Strip (if I am calling it correctly) only has L1, L2, 3, and 4G. There is NO "5", which does not match wiring diagrams I found either elsewhere or on this site's postings about AE 90 phones.

I am trying to attach this to an XLink (http://www.myxlink.com/index.aspx) to use as a house phone with cell phones. This purchased AE 90 came with an additional three wire cord (Red, Yellow, and Green wires) but not connected to anything at all. It does look like the two screws on 4G and one of the screws on 3 are loosened so I thought they might attach there, but I have no idea of the proper wiring.

I do have a converter cable (http://www.amazon.com/4-PRONG-TELEPHONE-ADAPTER-PLUG/dp/B002OBSD16/) to go from 4-prong to newer telephone cable, but I still need to know what wires go where.

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. I have additional photos and will try to upload them in a reply post as I am only allowed 6 photos per post.

Thank you ahead of time! (Yes, the phone is pink, I am making my lady happy, while also getting to tinker with a cool vintage phone.)
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 02, 2015, 10:54:31 AM
Here are the additional photos showing the 3-wire additional cord, the bottom of the phone (I think it has identifiers), and also a close up on the 3 and 4G screws on the Terminal Strip.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 02, 2015, 11:57:41 AM
Welcome!

That's a nice phone!

Your phone is an early type of the 90 which didn't have the 5-terminal strip.  Your phone also has the manually adjusted loop compensation potentiometer installed which isn't on the diagrams you quoted.

Here is a diagram from ca. 1957, I think I took it from the 1957 catalog.

Your phone also still has its original ringer installed, and that matches the designation stamps on the bottom of the phone.  This is how I like to find phones too.
That said, it is a frequency-selective ringer and won't be able to ring on a standard telephone line of today.  It only responds to ringing frequency of 54 Hz, as indicated by the stamp (C54), also printed on the ringer label.  The letter C indicated the type of dial number plate that you have, numbers with letters.

Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 02, 2015, 12:20:18 PM
Thank you, the diagram is extremely helpful!

It won't ring, but is it possible for me to wire it up to get a dial tone and make calls out? If so, what wires would I connect? I am new to the telephone wiring and learn fast but am still learning the terms and the circuits. I am good with Google and can look up anything you say I should!

Also, would it be possible for me to get a different ringer and swap out the ringer with this phone's original ringer to then get a ring? If so, any recommended ringer (or just any ringer from a later AE 90 model)?
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: AE_Collector on September 02, 2015, 12:29:46 PM
That one is a keeper! The oldest model AE90 there is. This model has the terminal strip 1-4 where all later models eliminated it and station wire hooked directly to the network terminals.

It also has the base of an AE 80 desk phone and a matching color painted hook instead of a chrome hook. Quite rare.

Are you certain that it is pink and not beige? I am looking at it on my smart phone so colors may not be very accurate.

Terry
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 02, 2015, 12:34:14 PM
Quote from: eBass on September 02, 2015, 12:20:18 PM
Thank you, the diagram is extremely helpful!

It won't ring, but is it possible for me to wire it up to get a dial tone and make calls out? If so, what wires would I connect? I am new to the telephone wiring and learn fast but am still learning the terms and the circuits. I am good with Google and can look up anything you say I should!

Also, would it be possible for me to get a different ringer and swap out the ringer with this phone's original ringer to then get a ring? If so, any recommended ringer (or just any ringer from a later AE 90 model)?

Sure, everything will work except for the ringing part.

You should connect your telephone line to the L1 and L2 terminals.  L1 and L2 are the standard terms used in the telephone industry in the US for the line connections.   The typical colors for those are red and green conductors in the line cord.

Wall telephones usually don't have a 'line cord' per se.  Usually the inside wiring (going through the walls of the residence) are directly brought into the phone from the rear or from below.

So I have a question:  Are those red, green, and yellow cord ends with the spade connectors, that you are showing, on the handset cord?  It wasn't connected?  Or is that actually a line cord?
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 02, 2015, 01:05:23 PM
The Red, GREEN, YELLOW cable is, I believe, a line cord. The handset cord has Black, Red, and 2 White wires (the phone came with an additional handset cord as well).

I also found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXyBq25tzc0

Could I connect Red and Green wires to L1 and L2 and then the Yellow wire to a different terminal and then wire the other end like the above video recommends? Or, because of the 54hz ringer, the Yellow wire is no good to me?

For a replacement ringer, could I replace with something like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PHONE-AUTOMATIC-ELECTRIC-RINGER-PARTS-/281781724766?hash=item419b7fe65e

AE_COLLECTOR It is DEFINITELY pink, very pink. No beige on this one. And yes, the hook is also painted same color pink. Because it is on the rarer side, do you recommend NOT switching out parts? I'd love to try to get the ringer functional.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 02, 2015, 01:27:16 PM
This is just an all-around nice original old set worthy being in a fine collection.  The full color adds to its stature, as by 1959 the majority of phones issued were probably still black.

Personally, I could not get myself to swap any part of it.  I run frequency-ringer phones on a more modern PBX modified for frequency ringing.  The experience of hearing an old phone hammer away at 54 Hz is in itself a lot of fun.

It even has what quite possibly is the original number card in the dial center.  Not all places had direct DDD service yet in 1959, others needed a special prefix to be dialed, and this is indicated on the card by instructing to dial 123 first. The area code 814 is one of the original area codes assigned to central Pennsylvania in 1947 and it has never been split or overlaid yet!  When the phone was installed this part of the country was serviced by an independent telephone company, and when that area became part of the Bell System the central office code (483) was likely changed at some point, because today it is serviced by a number of wireless providers.  Sprint in your case.

The eBay ringer you found is no good for this phone. It would not fit as it is made for another type of phone.  Any replacement ringer should look essentially the same as yours and come from an AE 80 or 90 phone.
Perhaps you could simply acquire an external ringer box or install an additional small buzzer inside without having to destroy the originality of the set.

The third wire in the line cord (yellow) was used for grounded ringing. Rather than using the two line connections for ringing, ringers were connected on one side to earth ground for the return and the ringing signal was supplied on either the green or red line side.  This permitted up to 10 telephones on a party line; 5 on each side with frequencies of 66, 54, 42, 30, and 16 Hz.  Other frequency schemes existed as well.

Today all ringing is supplied on the two line wires and ground is not longer needed.  You can simply isolate the terminal with electric tape.

If the ringer is replaced, you must also replace the gray capacitor next to it, because this one is specifically sized for this ringer and is too small for a straight-line ringer. Its value is probably only 0.08 µF, while a straight-line ringer uses at least a ca. 0.5 µF capacitor.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 02, 2015, 02:03:06 PM
Okay, so it sounds like I should NOT change the internals of the phone given the uniqueness of the device itself.

So .. to get a ringer, you recommend an external ringer box or install an additional small buzzer inside (possibly with a modern PBX modified for frequency ringing). I can do that, I just need a lead on how to start that. I trust you guys in not messing with the internals. Where do I start for that? Am I going to wire the Red and Green line cord to this external box (thus should not fiddle with linking to my xLink at present) or ... is there some way I can reroute and go through the xLink with the red and green wires and then somehow also modify the frequency ringer at the same time to ring (PBX mod)?
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 02, 2015, 03:08:12 PM
Quote from: eBass on September 02, 2015, 02:03:06 PM
Okay, so it sounds like I should NOT change the internals of the phone given the uniqueness of the device itself.

So .. to get a ringer, you recommend an external ringer box or install an additional small buzzer inside (possibly with a modern PBX modified for frequency ringing). I can do that, I just need a lead on how to start that. I trust you guys in not messing with the internals. Where do I start for that? Am I going to wire the Red and Green line cord to this external box (thus should not fiddle with linking to my xLink at present) or ... is there some way I can reroute and go through the xLink with the red and green wires and then somehow also modify the frequency ringer at the same time to ring (PBX mod)?

Well, the first step is to connect your telephone line to the L1 and L2 terminals and get the phone to work. Let's work out any and all issues first before ringing.  So take a modular cord that plugs into your Xlink and hook up the red and green wires on the other end to L1 and L2.   With a modular T-adapter you can run a second phone on the Xlink port that would indicate ringing for now.

After that you can do some soul searching to decide what YOU want to do with that phone, since it is yours alone.  What I would do is usually hardly of relevance to anyone else and my ways may not be terribly practical for others. Creating a frequency-ringing PBX is not an off-the-shelves-parts kind of task.

Finding a matching straight-line ringer may not be that simple either, but I don't have statistics of how many can still be found.  Fact is that it is a favorite sport of collectors to replace frequency ringers. But since probably only a minority of these phones originally came with a straight-line ringer, the existing supply is not large.
Someone on the forum just recently reported having mechanically modified the ringer by sawing into the reed mounting spring of the clapper, weakening the spring.

Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 02, 2015, 03:58:18 PM
That is a very smart move. I am known for putting the cart before the horse, but you know, horses can also push. But it is a smarter move by far to have them pull. Rambling. Apologies.

Will be able to test out plugging everything in and T-adapting tomorrow AM. Will do and report back!

Thank you thus far!
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 04, 2015, 12:49:29 PM
All righty, I have Green and Red hooked up to L1 and L2, respectively, and then linked through a converter to the modular connection.

I plugged into the xLink and tested it. It connects and I get a dial tone when connected. I can make calls from my cell phone and transfer it to the rotary phone and have conversations and it is heard clearly.

I CANNOT dial out at present. When I connect via xLink and go to dial the rotary, though it begins with a dial tone, there are not tonal clicks with a rotary dial and the xLink disconnects. Is this a wiring thing or an xLink thing?

Also, what is the next step re: buzzer?
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 05, 2015, 03:11:47 PM
Quote from: eBass on September 04, 2015, 12:49:29 PM
All righty, I have Green and Red hooked up to L1 and L2, respectively, and then linked through a converter to the modular connection.
ok.

Quote
I plugged into the xLink and tested it. It connects and I get a dial tone when connected. I can make calls from my cell phone and transfer it to the rotary phone and have conversations and it is heard clearly.
ok.

Quote
I CANNOT dial out at present. When I connect via xLink and go to dial the rotary, though it begins with a dial tone, there are not tonal clicks with a rotary dial and the xLink disconnects. Is this a wiring thing or an xLink thing?
what are tonal clicks?
You should in fact hear almost nothing during dialing. The receiver is disabled while the dial turns. After the first digit, the dial tone should not reappear.  If it does, it means the dial pulses were not recognized.  It seems they are though?
You have to find a way to find out what is actually being sent to the cell phone.  I don't recall if the digits are shown on the cell phone.  I don't have mine hooked up currently.

Quote
Also, what is the next step re: buzzer?
No sense in worrying about that until the set can make calls successfully.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: andre_janew on September 05, 2015, 03:23:13 PM
Sometimes when I dial a rotary phone, I hear extremely faint clicking sounds in the receiver.  He may be referring to that sort of thing.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 05, 2015, 11:44:22 PM
I tested receiving calls and worked.

So, the tonal thing -- I recall, as andre_janew notes, an extremely faint click/tonal sounds in the handset/receiver in phones before.

When I dial, there is absolutely no sound in the receiver and after the first rotary number dial (first individual number, say "8"), my iPhone goes to Siri and it asks what I would like to do, it is as if the number dial somehow just activates Siri and does not send any further information.

Also, I just noticed the rotary dial itself is a little "sticky" as in it does not rotate smoothly. When I was just testing different numbers, it stuck a couple of times. How do I smooth that out?
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 06, 2015, 08:32:28 AM
If the dial does not rotate smoothly and at the correct speed, the dial pulses will not be properly recognized by almost any telephone system.  In this case the dial needs to be removed and cleaned internally, and examined for damage.
You can use various types of cleaning sprays, that don't leave a residue; Radio Shack sells a spray for electronic components, for example.  I also use an ultrasonic cleaner with some liquid soap as agent after removing the mechanism from the largest parts.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 06, 2015, 11:03:07 AM
I have an ultrasonic cleaner.

Attached are pictures that I took after taking a few outer components of the rotary dial off. I can keep going, but I don't want to take anything extra off I do not need to, so I do not mess anything up.

Let me know which pieces I should take off and ultrasonic/oil up. I'll go to Radioshack and pick up the recommended spray.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 06, 2015, 11:19:38 AM
At least to get to the dial itself, remove the four wires, then the large  backing plate held on by the three screws.  Then remove the finger stop, then remove the pink plastic bezel with the numbers by removing the three screws around the inner lip of the center area.

At that point, you will have the whole dial isolated.  Others can lead you through further steps that might be needed to run it through the ultrasonic.  Maybe you can just put the dial in the ultrasonic in this state.  I have always disassembled the dial much further and put the pieces through the ultrasonic, but that involves some disassembly/reassembly skills of a higher level than many have.  THere are also some pictorial tutorials on this forum regarding that particular dial.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 06, 2015, 11:49:20 AM
Pink cover plate off as well as taking wires and back plate off as well. (Pictures of what I have left included.)

Should I ultrasonic clean first or go to Radioshack and get the non-lubricant cleaner and spray it with that first? I am also assuming after the ultrasonic clean I will need to spray it with compressed air or the like, yes?
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 06, 2015, 12:23:33 PM
Quote from: eBass on September 06, 2015, 11:49:20 AM
Pink cover plate off as well as taking wires and back plate off as well. (Pictures of what I have left included.)

Should I ultrasonic clean first or go to Radioshack and get the non-lubricant cleaner and spray it with that first? I am also assuming after the ultrasonic clean I will need to spray it with compressed air or the like, yes?

That should be plenty in terms of disassembly. No extra spray is needed before the ultrasonic cleaner.  Usually I just rinse well or put it in just clear water in the ultrasonic as a rinse to get the soap off.  When no plastic parts are present, I have also used acetone out of a spray bottle for drying.  Using distilled water as a final rinse may also work.  In any case it should just be left for thorough drying for a while.  Finally a tiny drop of watch oil may be good in the usual places.

There are some dial maintenance practices by GTE, IIRC, check the TCI library or online.  IIRC, they even specify spots for oil.

Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 06, 2015, 12:30:13 PM
What kind of soap do you recommend? A drop or two of dish soap or is there a particular kind that is better than others?
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: andre_janew on September 06, 2015, 02:11:43 PM
Dawn is a good brand to use for getting rid of grease.  It is even used to get crude oil  off birds.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 06, 2015, 02:59:29 PM
Last week I cleaned a No. 6D dial in the ultrasonic cleaner and I simply used a small shot of the concentrated laundry detergent we had in the laundry room, because I didn't have anymore the "extra-strength" dish-washing liquid I used before, I think it was Dawn Powerclean.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 06, 2015, 06:16:28 PM
I went and bought some Dawn Power Clean and ran two 8 minute cycles. Then I replaced the water with just distilled water and ran an 8 min cycle and then a 3 minute cycle. Still drying now.

I will wait until it is fully dry but it looks like it is still sticking. From what I can tell, and researching part names, the governor is what is sticking. If I do a full spin (like a 9 dial) is seems to wind back down, but if it is a small spin (a dial of a 2 or a 3) it just stays and does not spin back. If I click in small winds, it does not unwind until I start it unwinding first.

I imagine oiling up is what I do next, but please advise. If so, what oil and exactly where to put the oil? Thank you!
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: G-Man on September 06, 2015, 07:06:45 PM
Page 19 of this document from the TCI Library deals with lubrication of dials.
Remember, in most cases a tiny drop of lubricant will do and above all, do not allow any to access the governor.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 06, 2015, 07:36:37 PM
Will follow PG 19. Do I need to use lubricant Specification 5920. or is there one I can get a little more easily?
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 06, 2015, 07:41:05 PM
When you say "do not allow any to access the governor", what do you mean? On Pg 19 the is numerous references to lubricating parts of the governor.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 06, 2015, 08:13:29 PM
The governor housing cup is at the top of the governor.  Items K and G on the diagram seem to indicate lubrication points that I personally would avoid because the whole idea of the governor is that the little tips on the ends of the two centrifugal springs use friction against the inside of the cup or drum to achieve speed regulation.  Location D would be just the brass bushing where the very pointed tip of the end of the governor shaft spins.  That can be lubricated.  Use a very light oil like three-in-one or a light grade oil that you can buy in a little oiler pen at Harbor Freight or other hardware stores.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: G-Man on September 06, 2015, 09:34:04 PM
Quote from: eBass on September 06, 2015, 07:41:05 PM
When you say "do not allow any to access the governor", what do you mean? On Pg 19 the is numerous references to lubricating parts of the governor.

Do not allow the oil to access the inside of the governor cup. Only lubricate the bearing-points.


If oil is allowed to seep into the cup, the dial will run much too fast.


Another method that is generally specified by the Bell System, is for the use of a toothpick dipped in oil, with the excess removed. This helps prevent over-oiling those points.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 10, 2015, 04:50:47 PM
I finally was able to pick up 3-in-1.

To be clear, I should oil everything in the diagram, BUT avoid the things inside the cup marked G and K on the diagram? I can oil tonight, but wanted to double check first.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 10, 2015, 08:32:01 PM
The biggest thing to avoid is the inside surface or any moving part inside the governor cup.  All other things can be lightly oiled, but not to the point where they are dripping.  That's why it was suggested by G-man to use the end of a toothpick dipped in the oil to then wipe onto the parts that need just a littel oil.  Don't just squirt oil onto parts of the dial directly out of the spout of the 3-in-one can or you will have an oily mess. Just so there is enough on each contact point to be lubricative.  The main shaft and its bushing are a good point to lubricate too.

Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 10, 2015, 09:31:54 PM
Quote from: Phonesrfun on September 06, 2015, 08:13:29 PM
The governor housing cup is at the top of the governor.  Items K and G on the diagram seem to indicate lubrication points that I personally would avoid because the whole idea of the governor is that the little tips on the ends of the two centrifugal springs use friction against the inside of the cup or drum to achieve speed regulation.  Location D would be just the brass bushing where the very pointed tip of the end of the governor shaft spins.  That can be lubricated.  Use a very light oil like three-in-one or a light grade oil that you can buy in a little oiler pen at Harbor Freight or other hardware stores.

I think there is some misunderstanding how this governor works.

The governor does not regulate speed by friction of the springs again the inside of the governor cup.

The fly-ball governor works on the principle of conservation of angular momentum, to achieve a constant rotational speed of the worm gear.  The springs expand as the speed deviates higher and thus the spring action pulls them closer again, and the oppose happens when the gear is too slow.  The weights at the end of the springs never touch the governor cup.

The speed of the dial is adjusted by slightly bending the springs to just perfect spread.

It doesn't really matter from this point of view whether oils gets there, but it shouldn't because oil attracts dusts.  Oil should only be on surfaces that experience friction, such as the length of the worm gear and the ratchet gear, and of course the bearing points.  This is what the GTE practice prescribes.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 10, 2015, 10:09:08 PM
What about the WE governor?
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 10, 2015, 10:25:08 PM
Oiled up and inside of governor cup avoided! (I used the toothpick method.)

The rotary dial turning now works without a hitch and turns smoothly.

So, I put the phone back together and connected it to my xLink.

I can dial a number with my cell phone and pick up the rotary phone handset and the call goes through the AE 90.

I can receive a call on my cell and pick up the receiver on the AE 90 and receive the call.

When I pick up the receiver, there is a dial tone. When I dial a number on the AE 90, the dial tone stays. The problem is, it does not dial on the iPhone nor when I have put in a 10 digit number (or 11, I've tried with "1" first) does anything happen. There is still the dial tone.

The dial turns smoothly, just not number recognition.

Here are xLink links I have found, but since my phone stays connected, I do not think it is necessarily a problem on the xLink side. The link no longer disconnects as it did before, so we are a step in the forward direction.

http://www.myxlink.com/faq.aspx
http://www.myxlink.com/trouble.aspx

Still no ringer, but that is for later.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 10, 2015, 10:41:14 PM
Quote from: Phonesrfun on September 10, 2015, 10:09:08 PM
What about the WE governor?

The WECo governor works on the same physics principle, just uses a different mechanical design.

The gearing is clearly different by not using the worm, but a clock-like gear box.

The speed regulation happens by elongated curved weights being anchored at one end on a flywheel so that they would fly outward at the other end if they were not being held inward by the governor spring. But this regulates the speed in just the same manner as in the worm gear governor.

On the No. 2-5 WECo dials the tension of the spring could be adjusted with a screw mechanism, with the aid of the No. 260 adjustment tool, while the No. 6 dial could not be adjusted anymore. I suppose manufacturing accuracy was good enough by then that they didn't need it.

I think the reason for not getting oil into the WECo governor is that it is almost impossibly to remove excess which might bind the delicate parts.   Getting liquid into the governor doesn't seem to matter per se, however, because I have put the whole dial into soap water in the ultrasonic cleaner and there is no ill effect.  I have accurate digital dial speed measurement equipment and the speed is not effected at all, other than improving it because the dial is clean.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 11, 2015, 01:16:15 AM
Unbeldi:

Well, I'll be darned.  All this time I thought it was friction.  See, we all learn things here.

eBass:

The Xlink I used to have worked with rotary, so I am wondering if there is a software setting on yours that has pulse dial recognition somehow turned off.  I would not know how to get to the settings of the Xlink, but something to consider.

Yet another consideration is to look at the dial itself.  Check the dial pulse contacts to make sure they are opening and closing while the dial is winding down.  Also check the speed.  The XLink might be super sensitive to the pulsing speed.  Specs for a dial is 10 pulses per second.  That means that once you release the dial when dialing "0", it should take 1.1 second to come to rest. (1.1 seconds because of the extra space between the 1 and 0 holes).  If your dial is running too fast or too slow, the XLink might not be recognizing the pulses, although usually there should be a fair amount of tolerance built into the software of the XLink.

Do you have another known good rotary phone that you can connect to your XLink to see if it dials out?  You could also use a known good rotary phone to check the dial speed on the phone you are working on.  Wind them both up with a "0" and release both at the same time and compare the speed.  Excessively fast or slow dial might be the problem, but as I mentioned, since there is usually a fair amount of tolerance, if the dials are close in their speed, the issue is probably not the speed.

If it is a speed issue, then the adjustment is, as Unbeldi said, to bend the governor springs slightly.  (evenly).  Bending them out would slow the dial, and bending them in would speed it up.

I would check to see if another phone works or not on the XLink before anything else.  Then check the pulsing contacts to make sure they are opening and closing. 
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: G-Man on September 11, 2015, 08:09:23 AM
Interesting viewpoint about it being acceptable to oil the inside of the governor cup. When I attended my first telco training schools, we were strongly admonished to oil very sparingly, and were pointedly told not to allow oil to accumulate inside of the governor cup. This was often repeated throughout my long career in telephony.

Below are instructions for lubrication of dials from a Stromberg-Carlson publication. The Stromberg dial discussed, aside from a few minor differences, employs the same type of worm-gear and governor cup as does the Automatic Electric dial of the same vintage. This closely echoes instructions by other manufacturers regarding the lubrication of their dials....




LUBRICATION
The points of the dial which will need lubrication, should the dial become sluggish, are given below. The oil used for this purpose is a very special product; no ordinary lubricants should ever be used on the dial mechanism.

Stromberg-Carlson Dial Lubricant, part No. 202,239, is used for this purpose. The following listed bearing surfaces are to be lubricated. One drop of oil is to be applied at each point; a drop of oil being the amountthat adheres to a piece of 22 gauge wire after being immersed in the oil to a depth of ½".

A. WORM SHAFT (22) Oil both the tail and governor cup bearings, (24) being careful not to let any oil get on the inside surface of the cup where the governor fly-balls make contact. Oil should also be applied to the worm where it contacts the worm wheel.

B. PINION SHAFT (17) Oil both bearings, one in the bridge (25) and the other at the lower end of the pinion shaft. Distribute a drop evenly on the outside of the spring clutch.

C. MAIN SHAFT (14) To oil the main power shaft properly, remove the anchor (27), and the fingerplate. Remove any dust around the bearings   under the fingerplate before applying the oil.
Distribute one drop evenly on the inside of the motor spring (16). Put one drop where the main shaft fits into the bridge. Wipe off all excess oil.
-There is nothing finer than a Stromberg Carlson -

Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: G-Man on September 11, 2015, 09:03:16 AM
Here is an excerpt from an old article written by Bruce Crawford, regarding  how Northern Electric shops lubricated dials.




Dials, Repair, Maintenance

Generally, relatively sophisticated equipment is required for dial repair. GTE practices suggest dismantling the entire dial; this is hardly feasible today. However, ultrasonic cleaning of dials badly gummed or over lubricated is sometimes essential. Unfortunately, the average hobbyist does not have an ultrasonic cleaner or test equipment for dials.

Dial fingerwheels may require special tools to remove them from the shaft; Dr. Meyer's recent book illustrates the removal of the plastic fingerwheel from a standard WECo. NECo. S-C or ITT 500 set: this applies to most plastic fingerwheels manufactured by these firms. AECo's plastic wheels are somewhat different, and, unfortunately a great variety of assemblies were used by that company over the years. Later AECO 3" fingerwheels were simply screwed on; the mounting screw is hidden by the stick-on dial card, (Replacement labels for the AECo dial just described are available from most stationers. Unfortunately, the clear celluloid that was used to protect the Label is not available.)

Dr. Meyer's book also illustrates the removal of the metal card holder from the AECO metal fingerwheel; a special tool should be used, but this is rarely available. After the AECo card holder is finally removed from this dial, carefully study the mechanics of same, and reassembly should be relatively easy.

WD-40 can be used to free a seized dial, but its use is NOT recommended. WD-40 is not a permanent lubricant (it eventually evaporates).

The manufacturers provide a number of practices on dial lubrication. but it was interesting to note that in Northern Electric's Repair and overhaul shops their own practices were ignored.

The dial repair person simply used a toothpick, dipped about 1 /4" into a small container of sewing machine oil (3 in 1 for example). Each bearing point is lubricated, with care being taken to see that absolutely NO oil gets into the governor. DO NOT APPLY EXCESS OIL.

At this point, if the dial didn't turn at an approximately close speed, Northern simply junked it! In all fairness, however, it should be pointed out that in 1961, when I was first given a brief tour of Northern's shops, the cost of labor had reached a point that many units of equipment were classed as "Beyond Economical Repair" (BER) with emphasis on the economical part.


Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 11, 2015, 09:25:16 AM
I see where this opinion of friction comes from....

Here is a quote from a 1949 Stromberg-Carlson marketing brochure, Form No. T-106 GLP 10M, entitled ''Dials''.

==

GOVERNOR The normal operating speed and factory adjustment of the dial is 10
impulses per second plus or minus one-half impulse, but due to the impossibility of maintaining
this speed over a long period of time a minimum of 8 impulses per second and a
maximum of 12 impulses per second are allowable.
To regulate the speed of the dial, adjust the springs of the governor (22) to decrease
or to increase the friction of the weights on the inside surface of the cup (24). A slight
spreading of the springs will reduce speed; bringing both arms closer to the worm will
increase the speed. Form the governor springs as nearly alike as possible. There should
be perceptible end-play in the governor worm shaft but this end-play should not exceed
.010". The governor must be completely free-running without the slightest drag. The endplay
can be regulated by loosening the lock nut (21) over the screw thread at the tail
bearing (23) and, by turning with a screw driver, increase or decrease the play. The lock
nut at both the tail bearing end and at the governor cup end of the worm shaft must be
firmly tightened.

==

I would think that the governor cup and those weights would be carved away by now if there were friction. We would undoubtedly find debris accumulating in the governors.

The principle of the fly-ball governor is famous for being discovered by James Watt and first installed on his steam engine.
There are patents for friction governors but they operated similarly to an automotive break.

I would advise against adjusting the springs without measuring equipment, just the success or failure of an Xlink are not good enough.

The advice of not getting oil into the governor cup is still a good one, I think, because of the sensitivity of the mechanism to weight variations and any impairment to free rotation.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 11, 2015, 10:04:12 AM
After opening a No. 6 dial I have lying around I concede that the fly-weights indeed have friction pads close to their pivot point that would exert pressure against the governor cup.  They appear as a black material with a metal 'break pad'.  Impossible to tell what the material is.  The surface of the 'pad'  appears completely flat not a section of an arc.

PS: I just looked at the Forsberg patent of 1915 for the WECo-style dial, and he does say the action is by friction.  The pads are from rubber which would mean that oil should certainly be kept away from it.

Due to the centrifu-
gal force, friction members 45 and 46, which
rotate with said bridge-pieces, fly outwardly
against the tension of leaf springs 47 and
48, and press the rubber studs 45' and 46'
against the wall of cup 35.


So, I stand corrected.  It is a friction governor.
Surprise.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 11, 2015, 04:06:30 PM
Quote from: eBass on September 10, 2015, 10:25:08 PM
Oiled up and inside of governor cup avoided! (I used the toothpick method.)

The rotary dial turning now works without a hitch and turns smoothly.

So, I put the phone back together and connected it to my xLink.

I can dial a number with my cell phone and pick up the rotary phone handset and the call goes through the AE 90.

I can receive a call on my cell and pick up the receiver on the AE 90 and receive the call.

When I pick up the receiver, there is a dial tone. When I dial a number on the AE 90, the dial tone stays. The problem is, it does not dial on the iPhone nor when I have put in a 10 digit number (or 11, I've tried with "1" first) does anything happen. There is still the dial tone.

The dial turns smoothly, just not number recognition.

Here are xLink links I have found, but since my phone stays connected, I do not think it is necessarily a problem on the xLink side. The link no longer disconnects as it did before, so we are a step in the forward direction.

http://www.myxlink.com/faq.aspx
http://www.myxlink.com/trouble.aspx

Still no ringer, but that is for later.

I have only really played around with my Xlink, never really tested it out thoroughly for serious use. I've paired it with various devices, including Android phones, tablets, iPad, MacMini. For several it only worked as an audio device, and the dialing wasn't recognized, but was needed to connect it to the telephony application.

Just hooked it up with an Android phone, the number is recognized and I get a pop-up screen asking me which of the voice services I want to use.  When I select, the call does go through.  However, when paired with my iPad the telephony application (Linphone) doesn't get the number.  So, I can't speak about iPhone operation.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 11, 2015, 06:41:59 PM
I just plugged in and tried with a WE 500 series. The phone does dial out through that rotary phone. Later tonight I will try receiving a call and seeing if the phone rings.

I tested the dial time against each other, the AE 90 is just a fraction of a second slower than the WE 500 series.

Additionally, when dialing on the WE, the dial tone pauses during the dial, and I DO hear the very light tone that you hear in a rotary when it is dialing, that I mentioned I did not hear at all in the AE 90 when I dialed.

When I check the ringer for incoming calls later tonight or tomorrow AM, I will time both the WE and AE phone dials for exact numbers on timing. But again, it is just a fraction difference, and the less of a turn, the even smaller the difference in timing.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 11, 2015, 06:55:37 PM
I would  check the pulsing contacts on the dial to make sure they are fully opening while the cam is spinning.  Also check the yellow and blue pusling wires to make sure the spade terminals are not touching each other or that spade terminals on the network aren't crossing over and touching others.

Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 12, 2015, 11:56:48 AM
My WE 500 series phone rings when called.

Timing (rudimentarily done using my iPhone timer):

WE: ~1.25 seconds from "0"
AE: ~1.55 seconds from "0"

What's the fix?
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 12, 2015, 01:12:01 PM
Looks like the dial is just a little too slow for the XLink.  To verify you can often succeed by keeping the finger in the finger wheel hole and applying just very slight constant pressure during the return of the wheel to speed it up.
Not a fix.... just another test.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 12, 2015, 02:23:12 PM
I just measured the acceptable pulsing speed of my Xlink BTTN.

I took the first set of measurements at a break ratio of 60%.
Dial tone was broken from 7.5 pulses per second (pps) to 11.5 pps. Digit decoding was ok at 7.5, but on the high end I started to get errors at 11.0, one miscounted digit (first digit 5 instead of 6) in several attempts.

The AE dials are designed for 61.5% break.  That increased the lower boundary to 7.6 pps, ergo minor effect. Same on the high end, no significant difference.

So this seems to imply that your AE is seriously slow.  An acceptable range usually is ca. 8 to 12 pps. And the nominal speed is 10.0 pps.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 12, 2015, 04:05:29 PM
Have you looked at the latest software update for the Xlink gateway?
The latest version was just released end of August with the reason "Special support added for antique telephones".

I don't remember for sure what the old menus looked like, but I think [I found screen shots of the previous version] They added a new tab "Antique".  It contains an option for extra ring power, a tip/ring battery reversal, and  pulse dialing detection for "Out of Spec Pulse Dialing".

Looks like I need to repeat my measurements now (but not now).
I would suggest you upgrade the software and give it a try!

Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 12, 2015, 07:16:20 PM
I will try to find a PC and update the xLink. Since the dial is still slow, is it possible that I did not oil enough and should go back in and lubricate again to make sure?

[I tried the pull the dial with my finger to speed it up. It did not register each number, but some numbers were registered on the phone when I did it that way.]
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 12, 2015, 07:29:04 PM
Quote from: eBass on September 12, 2015, 07:16:20 PM
I will try to find a PC and update the xLink. Since the dial is still slow, is it possible that I did not oil enough and should go back in and lubricate again to make sure?

[I tried the pull the dial with my finger to speed it up. It did not register each number, but some numbers were registered on the phone when I did it that way.]

Since you already cleaned the dial and oiled it, and it is running smoothly, further oiling wouldn't improve speed, I don't think. On the opposite, perhaps, too much oil increases drag in the bearing points.


Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 19, 2015, 04:23:47 PM
An update! I updated the xLink software, turned on the Extra Ring Power and the Out of Spec Pulse Dialing.

I can now dial out!

However, no gain on the phone ringing upon an incoming call. I even tried the different Tip/Ring Voltage options, and that had no effect.

One step closer!

Could it be a wiring issue with the ringer? Should the yellow wire be attached to anything now?
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: poplar1 on September 19, 2015, 04:53:40 PM
The 54~ ringer is not designed to ring on 20~ or 30~. The Xink is probably furnishing either 20~ or 30~ (Hertz).
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: eBass on September 20, 2015, 05:30:48 PM
Even with the update to the xLink software that has "Extra Ringer Power"?

If that is still the case, now that everything else is functioning ... how do I get this 54 hz ringer to ring!?
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 20, 2015, 06:00:56 PM
Well, I am glad that the software load worked for you.  I will measure sometime, just what it is they modified.  The only obvious changes are the tolerances for make/break ratio.   When that button is clicked it make them both extremely wide.

There is nothing you can do to make that ringer ring electrically, unless you use an analog telephone adapter for voip that can be set for frequency ringing.  It is not the "power" of the ringing current, but the AC frequency.

Some people have used a saw to weaken the clapper spring just right, so it responds to 20 hertz.  But, thank you, no thank you, for me. I want to hear them ring at their intended frequency.

Many people buy straight-line ringers from collectors who want to sell them.

Another option is to use an external ringer box or chime.

Yet another is to install a smaller buzzer, like was used often in key system telephones. I found the pictured one in a phone. It produces a high pitch chirping.

Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: G-Man on September 20, 2015, 07:37:25 PM
Quote from: eBass on September 20, 2015, 05:30:48 PM
Even with the update to the xLink software that has "Extra Ringer Power"?

If that is still the case, now that everything else is functioning ... how do I get this 54 hz ringer to ring!?


Ditto to what popular1 and unbeldi have already stated. Frequency ringers were designed to NOT ring at other frequencies. They were used on party-lines to selectively ring a specific subscriber.

Without this (or other) selective calling feature, subscribers would have to listen to the ringing of the other subscribers on his party-line. Often, there could be 8-10 other subscribers on the same line.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 21, 2015, 01:54:59 AM
Quote from: G-Man link=topic=14899.msg155564#msg155564 date=144279224. how do I get this 54 hz ringer to ring!?

/quote]
  You won't


Ditto to what popular1 and unbeldi have already stated. Frequency ringers were designed to NOT ring at other frequencies. They were used on party-lines to selectively ring a specific subscriber.

Without this (or other) selective calling feature, subscribers would have to listen to the ringing of the other subscribers on his party-line. Often, there could be 8-10 other subscribers on the same line.

Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: mentalstampede on September 21, 2015, 02:06:03 AM
I tried tweaking on the frequency ringer in my AE90, and was eventually able to make it ring, but it was not exactly reliable or scientific. Finding a straight line ringer/capacitor assembly is your best option. Swapping it out is simple, and you know if will work reliably.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: AE_Collector on September 26, 2015, 02:18:41 PM
But as has been mentioned a couple of times, on a nice old phone like this it is too bad to not just leave it original. A frequency ringer isn't a "broken ringer" but one that is no longer supported, just like many other old phones that we covet. Either hearing the ringer in another phone or adding an extension bell type ringer separate to the phone is preferable in many ways.

Terry
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: unbeldi on September 26, 2015, 03:27:36 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on September 26, 2015, 02:18:41 PM
But as has been mentioned a couple of times, on a nice old phone like this it is too bad to not just leave it original. A frequency ringer isn't a "broken ringer" but one that is no longer supported, just like many other old phones that we covet. Either hearing the ringer in another phone or adding an extension bell type ringer separate to the phone is preferable in many ways.

Terry

I could not agree more.

I feel a frequency ringer is an important part of telephone history, and not at all an unattractive one either, and should be preserved. In fact I find it a rather interesting and entertaining part of that history. At some point as late as the 1950s ca 80% of all telephone in N.A. were installed on party lines.

Collectors expend great effort and go the extra mile when it comes to polishing phones, painting, restoring wood, but when it comes to something as fundamental as signaling there seems to be a total disconnect.
Title: Re: Help with AE 90 Wiring!
Post by: mentalstampede on September 26, 2015, 11:31:50 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on September 26, 2015, 02:18:41 PM
But as has been mentioned a couple of times, on a nice old phone like this it is too bad to not just leave it original. A frequency ringer isn't a "broken ringer" but one that is no longer supported, just like many other old phones that we covet. Either hearing the ringer in another phone or adding an extension bell type ringer separate to the phone is preferable in many ways.

Terry

Frequency ringers are certainly an interesting aspect of the obsolescent telephony we are all fond of, but it all comes down to the individual collector and what he or she is wanting to accomplish with an old telephone or collection thereof; if one has many telephones of many different types it does indeed make no sense to molest otherwise intact examples of party-line units. On the other hand, if it's a question of modifying it to work with straight-line ringing as opposed to tossing it in the rubbish heap or making a kitschy lamp out of it, I think we can all agree that swapping out a ringer is the preferable option. And with most phones, such as the AE90 series, swapping a ringer is a non-permanent alteration, and does no damage to the components whatsoever. Also, with the non-WE units, straight-line ringing units are arguably rarer than the various party-line types anyway.

A similar argument could also be made that it is better to preserve a beat-up, unrestored, and non-functional telephone as opposed to repairing, polishing, and making repairs as necessary.