Anyone into old lanterns? (The Sequel Part 7, Finale - Grandma's Challenge)

[TelePlay]

This will be my last sequel, the last lantern I do (my 14th). I spotted what seemed to be an old Dietz No 2 D-Lite on eBay with a BIN at $33 including shipping. All parts were there. That's about what I would have paid at an antique mall only I could not handle it before buying. Turned out is was made in New York City at what they called their "Main" plant in February of 1929. The date code on the air tube is M-2-29. This is my first and only lantern made at their main plant. All of my other stamped lanterns were made in Syracuse NY. Guess you could say it took me 14 lanterns to finally get an "M."

So, this one saw both the great depression and WW-II and everything in between. And, this appears to be another table top lantern in that the bottom very little rust and no patina. Hanging lanterns had the bottoms exposed to air and the sulfur being burned off in the high sulfur kerosene of that period. From what I've found, it is sulfur that reacts with tin to create tin sulfide, a dark brown and very protective form of tin on the surface.

The first image below is from the eBay listing. The second are as received. The lantern was covered with reddish brown rust but it was loose in that it rubbed off in my hands. The none of the metal showed any signs of major corrosion. The burner was slightly "rusted" into place but broke loose with a light tap on a piece of wood stuck horizontally through the burner cone.

The inside of the fuel tank was quite clean, only one fly came out on first rinse and the air tubes were not blocked. Only two bends on the lantern, one in the fuel tank (can be seen in the bottom photo) and the other is on the front edge of the outer chimney.

This is going to be a test of Grandma's Molasses (hence the title "Grandma's Challenge), to see how well it really does work. I've seen it do miracles in the past but this has to be the most surface rusted lantern I've attempted to restore. I have no idea of what's going to show up under that rust. Time will tell.

[twocvbloke]

Last one? Hope you mean this week... 

[AL_as_needed]

Yeah, I said "this is the last one" when i got my moss green 500....four phones ago 

Nice find, very nice coming from NYC and being in fairly good shape for being as old as it is. I have faith in the molasses. That lantern is way better condition than what "rusty wizard" was in when it found its way into my truck.

[TelePlay]

Last one? Hope you mean this week... 

No, I mean forever, unless, of course, I find something really rare or unique in an antique mall which I have a better chance of winning the lottery than that happening.

When restoring a  lantern, I rinse it with water and go over it with a tooth brush to knock off any loose debris, dirt, dust, etc.

I then put it in the molasses bath for 24 hours to soften the top layer of long term crud. Usually, the first 24 hours do not create gasses, bubbles on the top surface of the molasses, which means there is a layer of something on the lantern that needed to be removed. That was the case with this lantern - no bubbles.

So, went over it with two Brillo pads.I think everyone is familiar with running a wet sponge over a counter top that seems clean only to feel the sponge snap on a bit of something dried on.

That's how the Brillo pad felt on the entire lantern and that's why it took two pads. It felt like sandpaper but after a few passes, it because smooth and a water rinse showed how much dirt was removed. What came off on the first cleaning was totally black. I would guess it was soot.

The bottom cleaned up very nicely once again making me think this lantern spent all of it's life sitting on a flat surface protecting the bottom tin from environmental gasses that create the tin sulfide patina.

Back in the bath for 24 hour now and the bubbles are present in great quantity indicating the reducing sugar in the molasses is working on the red rust that can be seen in these images. The yellow arrow shows a flat area on the lantern that has a very thick layer of caked dirt. I could catch an edge with a finger nail but it would not come free. The molasses bath will take care of that in the next 7 to 10 days.

I still have no idea of how this lantern will turn out. Time will tell . . .

[Pourme]

It's coming along nicely, John. Nice work!I would have never thought molasses would have that effect. I look forward to see more results.

I still think you should write a book. Think of how many more phones you could buy!

[AL_as_needed]

Johns work on lanterns keeps pulling me into lanterns further.... Hope to have some luck finding a similar piece to do the works on. Additionally, our side- bar conversations on metal restoration and some chemical tips/tricks/shortfalls has also been a very educational discourse. A book would honestly  be fairly easy to for him to compile, I know I'd buy a copy!

[Alex G. Bell]

No, I mean forever, unless, of course, I find something really rare or unique in an antique mall which I have a better chance of winning the lottery than that happening.

When restoring a  lantern, I rinse it with water and go over it with a tooth brush to knock off any loose debris, dirt, dust, etc.

I then put it in the molasses bath for 24 hours to soften the top layer of long term crud.

Molasses?  Really?  Why?

[TelePlay]

Molasses?  Really?  Why?

Yes, really and I'm glad you asked so I can summarize everything I've written in previous lantern topics into one place.

Yes, molasses for a couple of reasons. First, it was recommended by a company that is in the business of providing the history of lanterns, replacement parts for many lanterns and all sorts of help to both use and restore old lanterns including using molasses as the safest way to removing rust from the surface. Second, molasses is well documented on the web as a chelating agent for iron, the metal part of iron oxides (rust) or iron that has been oxidized. Rusting is the conversion or oxidation of iron to one of several iron oxides, the combination of iron with oxygen, resulting in that reddish brown material we call rust. Chelation reverses that process.

Chelating agents in general are made of molecules that are shaped a bit like the claws of a crab. The word chelation comes directly from the Latin word cheley — meaning claw. The chelating agents envelop metal atoms on the surface of an object, trapping them, extracting them from their existing molecular structure and making them easily removable. Molasses owe its chelating properties to cyclic hydroxmic acids which are powerful chelators of iron, and only iron.

The trick in removing rust without using caustic chemicals. Molasses mixed with water in a plastic pail (1 jar of Grandma's Molasses in 4.5 gallons of water) does the job well but the process is slow as molasses. The lantern is fully submerged in the "reducing" or "chelating" solution to prevent oxygen from rusting exposed metal. The cyclic hydroxmic acids pull the iron atoms out of the iron oxide molecules releasing oxygen gas (surface bubbles - see image below of an undisturbed bath after 2 days). The chelated iron still on the surface is then easily removed with a Brillo pad (recommended soap and wool grade). Heavily rusted surfaces will turn the Brillo pads mud brown and when rubbed off. Each subsequent bath will show progressive reduction in surface rust. The soaking is repeated until satisfied with the surface. The cyclic hydroxmic acids only attack the iron atoms so tin, lead (soldered joints and terne plating), and tin sulfides (patina) are not affected. When satisfied with the rust removal, I rinse the lantern with water, dry it with compressed air and use a Q-tip to apply Naval Jelly (phosphoric acid) to the seam creases and tight corner bends where a reddish rust color still shows due to the inability to reach that rust with a Brillo pad. The Naval Jelly converts the remaining rust to Iron Phosphate, a dark grey to black mineral like compound which stays on the lantern providing protective layer similar in color to the tin sulfide naturally occurring dark brown patina.

In summary, a chelating agent is a substance whose molecules can form several bonds to a single metal ion extracting it from its existing compoiund, iron oxides. The agents found in molasses are cyclic hydroxamic acids which are responsible for "molasses" rust removing abilities. These cyclic hydroxamic acids are particularly effective to chelate iron and make it soluble, easy to remove without damaging underlying or adjacent metal or metal patina.

Now, something else about chelating agents (and there are many each for their own specific use). The most popular or most used is EDTA (ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid) which I first learned about some 40 years ago as one of the anticoagulants used in blood collection tubes (purple septums) and injected into children suffering from severe lead poisoning to pull the lead deposited in their bones (lead is similar to calcium and is deposited in bones of children with high lead levels). EDTA is also used in a variety of other commercial applications detailed below in a article written by University of Wisconsin-Madison Chemistry Professor Bassam Z. Shakhashiri.

"EDTA is a versatile chelating agent. It can form four or six bonds with a metal ion, and it forms chelates with both transition-metal ions and main-group ions. EDTA is frequently used in soaps and detergents, because it forms a complexes with calcium and magnesium ions. These ions are in hard water and interfere with the cleaning action of soaps and detergents. The EDTA binds to them, sequestering them and preventing their interference. In the calcium complex, [Ca(EDTA)]^2–, EDTA is a tetradentate ligand, and chelation involves the two nitrogen atoms and two oxygen atoms in separate carboxyl (-COO ^̅) groups. EDTA is also used extensively as a stabilizing agent in the food industry. Food spoilage is often promoted by naturally-occurring enzymes that contain transition-metal ions. These enzymes catalyze the chemical reactions that occur during spoilage. EDTA deactivates these enzymes by removing the metal ions from them and forming stable chelates with them. It promotes color retention in dried bananas, beans, chick peas, canned clams, pecan pie filling, frozen potatoes, and canned shrimp. It improves flavor retention in canned carbonated beverages, salad dressings, mayonnaise, margarine, and sauces. It inhibits rancidity in salad dressings, mayonnaise, sauces, and sandwich spreads. EDTA salts are used in foods at levels ranging from 33 to 800 ppm.

In other applications, EDTA dissolves the CaCO₃ scale deposited from hard water without the use of corrosive acid. EDTA is used in the separation of the rare earth elements from each other. The rare earth elements have very similar chemical properties, but the stability of their EDTA complexes varies slightly. This slight variation allows EDTA to effectively separate rare-earth ions. EDTA is used as an anticoagulant for stored blood in blood banks; it prevents coagulation by sequestering the calcium ions required for clotting. As an antidote for lead poisoning, calcium disodium EDTA exchanges its chelated calcium for lead, and the resulting lead chelate is rapidly excreted in the urine. The calcium salt of EDTA, administered intravenously, is also used in the treatment of acute cadmium and iron poisoning."


So, that's why I use molasses, in 100 words or more. Thanks for asking.

[Alex G. Bell]

Fascinating!  Now I'll have to figure out how to immerse the entire tail end of my car in molasses to get rid of all the rust inside the trunk.  Unfortunately the trunk is not water tight so filling it full of molasses will not work.  I guess I'll first need to get a crane to hang the car by the front end of the frame.   

[TelePlay]

Reply #7 included a picture of the molasses bath working on a Dietz Little Wizard lantern that had some rust. The image of the lantern including the globe wires and carry bail can be clearly seen in the bubbles.

Grandma is up to the challenge!

Last night I checked up on this very rusty '29 Dietz D-Lite and when I removed the lid from the paid, I was shocked at what I saw. I've never seen the amount of bubbles and crud floating on the surface of any other lantern I've ever done before. It was so thick I used a strainer to remove the scum from the top. It was about 1/2" to 1" thick in places. Seemed to be comprised of whatever dirt was caked on the top of the fuel tank and gasses created when the cyclic hydroxmic acids pull iron out of iron oxide.

Covered it up and checked on it 12 hours later. Grandma is still working. More scum but being only 12 hours, I can make out the globe cage at about 9 o'clock, the tank rim and the hole in the scum seems to be related to the open fuel tank spout (the inside of the tank is rust free).

Will take it out of the bath for a rub down later today and will take photos of it at that time to see where this scum came from, what kind of job Grandma is doing on the lantern

[twocvbloke]

It's amazing to think that the stuff that makes brown sugars brown and tasty can do such a thing with metalwork, nature has a lot of surprises (being a natural plant-extract product), that's for sure...

[TelePlay]

Yes, it is amazing and the most amazing thing about it is that it goes selectively after iron. In my research, I've found molasses is used in cattle feed and horticulture. Feed grade molasses can be bought by the gallon for about $13. Don't know if the stuff is low sulfur so I'm sticking with what works - Grandma's. I tried Brer Rabbit once and it did not work, don't know why either. Lantern people must have suggested Grandma's for a reason.

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Okay, pulled it out of the bath and gave it another Brillo rub down. It's still giving off black soot. What I thought was a dark brown patina was just caked on black soot. The rinse water is still black. And, when the soot comes off, I am getting a dark grey patina. This lantern will have character when done in that there is no way I'm going to get the black soot out of all the small corners and creases so the final color range will be from grey tin to dark shadows. Should look very nice when done.

Still some rust on the lantern so back into the bath for another 3 days. The bottom is perfect, the vertical surfaces are near done but the flat surfaces, the top of the tank and the top cap, need more time.

That layer of crud on the tank, to the right of the fuel spot, is about half off. Still there but too think now for me to catch a finger nail of the edge. Still rust on some places but about half of what was there went away over the past 3 days.

Here's what it looked like today. You can see the manufacture date 2-29 inside the yellow box. The inner chimney that sits on the globe has some interesting black detail which I think will all go away. Looks like extra thick caked on soot left by flowage of something. The black is not patina because it is way to soft and comes off easily with little pressure of the Brillo. Patina does not soften in the solution or come off anywhere as easily as this black coating does.

[twocvbloke]

Feed grade molasses can be bought by the gallon for about $13. Don't know if the stuff is low sulfur so I'm sticking with what works

Yeah, wouldn't want to feed high-sulphur food to a horse, they're gassy enough as it is!! 

[TelePlay]

After only 24 hours of the 3rd soak, I have another layer of thick crud forming on the surface. There was still some caked on dirt on the fuel tank so I expected the dark brown dirt in the usually light colored bubbles. And, there was rust so the bubbles were not unexpected. Bottom line, Grandma's still working hard to restore this lantern.

[AL_as_needed]

Now I'm sure somewhere you did mention this John.... But to add to my growing list of lantern restoration tips & Tricks....

How much can the molasses be reused? Does it loose its effectiveness with the more rust it interacts with, being a chemical reaction after all?