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What Is the Dial on this 302 type Phone?

Started by SUnset2, February 20, 2020, 01:05:14 AM

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TelePlay

Quote from: countryman on February 20, 2020, 04:08:20 AM
It resembles the WE pulldown prototype on Paul-F.com, but the numbers are arranged in a different way.

It seems the finger stops for the phone on paul-f's site and the eBay auction phone use a similar method of splitting up the parallel numbers.

While the eBay phone only has two columns of numbers and paul-f's phone has 3, the eBay phone's left finger stop is higher than the right causing a different "pull down" distance by a half number for parallel numbers on the right.

The paul-f phone has three parallel number columns and 3 finger stop heights splitting the "pull down" distance into thirds.

The 0 on the top vs bottom is problematic not knowing how the dialing mechanism is inside the housing works.


Too bad the seller was unable to take in-focus pictures and excluded images of the interior.

compubit

This dial would make sense if the numbers were like this:

9 0
7   8
5 6
3   4
1 2

Based on the stops visible at the bottom...

Again with a picture of the insides...
J
A phone phanatic since I was less than 2 (thanks to Fisher Price); collector since a teenager; now able to afford to play!
Favorite Phone: Western Electric Trimline - it just feels right holding it up to my face!

andre_janew

This could be a 302 with a drum dial or a toy 302 with a drum dial.  Either way, it is unusual.

FABphones

I have been watching this one quietly since the listing went up and following this thread with interest.

Seller has been contacted - I would imagine by several eBay members by now - requesting internal photos, but none added, and no replies to any questions.

On this photo it looks like the front metal slides down, but the two 'drums' appear to be paper which is attached by adhesive (uneven surface and air bubbles, metal behind appears to be a solid piece).

Slightly intrigued by the reason for the Post-It type paper to the right of phone. No photos added of that side at all. Possibly that is a crack to the rear of phone which continues around to the side of the phone. Fuzzy photos by seller make this hard to see clearly.

If it should turn out to be an undocumented prototype I have no doubt the deep pockets are watching this auction too. Should a member here win this I look forward to finding out more.
A collector of  'Monochrome Phones with Sepia Tones'   ...and a Duck!
***********
Vintage Phones - 10% man made, 90% Tribble
*************

HarrySmith

Another oddity is the alligator clips on the line cord. I still do not see how this "dial" could possibly work.
Harry Smith
ATCA 4434
TCI

"There is no try,
there is only
do or do not"

countryman

At least this makes clear that the phone has been tinkered with. The numbers in FABphones enlarged picture... obviously on wavy paper and never made for real use... very strange. On the other hand the cutout for the dial looks factory made.
I see a good chance the seller reads this here as an unregistered guest with a smirk.


Doug Rose

I asked for pics of the inside....no response. "IF" this was real, it is certainly broken now. Just my humble opinion...Doug
Kidphone

FABphones

If I was to make a wild guess, I would say this phone is empty. Nothing inside hence no forthcoming photos from seller. To me, that whole 'drum dial' section appears to be an insert where a usual dial would fit.

The crocodile clips, another guess, but possibly a throwback to when this phone was tested/used IF it should turn out to have ever been working phone.

Without any further or clearer photos from the seller - we have a toy, a damaged mock up for the prototype we know of, or Caveat Emptor.

At the moment I am on the fence with the last two options....
A collector of  'Monochrome Phones with Sepia Tones'   ...and a Duck!
***********
Vintage Phones - 10% man made, 90% Tribble
*************

HarrySmith

Quote from: countryman on February 22, 2020, 07:52:26 AM
At least this makes clear that the phone has been tinkered with. The numbers in FABphones enlarged picture... obviously on wavy paper and never made for real use... very strange. On the other hand the cutout for the dial looks factory made.
I see a good chance the seller reads this here as an unregistered guest with a smirk.
Agreed. Looks like paper scotch taped to it?? Very strange! I hope nobody gets sucked in to believing it is a prototype. I also requested pictures of the inside but have not received a reply.
Harry Smith
ATCA 4434
TCI

"There is no try,
there is only
do or do not"

phonium

I noticed on the bottom under "410AA3" it says "341". Could that be a trial number, like on D/P's 1948 prototype?
George Amores
ATCA#4857

TelePlay

Consider this.

1)  Buyer 7***1 (11366), who is the current high bidder right now has 3 of the 5 bids and with the 3rd bid upping his own high maximum price. I've seen raising a max bid like that as a way for the buyer to scare off other buyers (says "I just placed an even higher maximum bid so anything you bid will not exceed my maximum, so no need in trying to out bid me"). That tactic was seen when doing the standard auction contests and almost every time it was used by a buyer, it virtually stopped new bids from being placed. I suspect a buyer with that high of a buyer feedback knows something we don't, or is willing to take a chance.

2)  Looking at the number "plate," to me I see a slotted acetate window covering the yellowed numbers, which have what seems to be the same font and coloring as later round number plates on early dials. The acetate seems to have yellowed and warped over time, something seen on old rotary dial number card holder assemblies. What looks like tape over the numbers could simply be glare from whatever light source was being used to take the picture. The part of the window that is not slotted shows a light black under it due to light reflection. The slot itself is black.

3)  The slot seems to say the "pull down" finger wheel is attached by a lever that only travels half the distance of the full vertical number plate. That lever would be attached, by a pivot point, and a longer arm to some type of pulsing mechanism. It could also be that the lever activates the first 5 numbers on pull down and if pulled down to the lower finger stop, to 0, in some way catches another set of pulsing leaves to dial the last 5 digits on return of the finger wheel. When dialing 0, it generates 5 pulses on the way down and the next 5 on the way up. That would work, it would be overly complicated, but it would account for 0 being at the bottom of the card, not the top. Probably why they went to the phone on paul-f's site before going to a production rotary dial.

Pulses created on the down pull would mean varying PPS speeds but on the release, that would or could be controlled by springs or a governor of sorts. It could also be that the "pull down and return" is some how creating or moving something to "remember" the number of "clicks" to be pulsed once the lever reaches the top, the end point on return. When reaching its normal stop, the "counted clicks" would be released and that number of pulses sent down the line. Dialing 0 would generate 5 stored clicks on the down pull and 5 more on the release, all of which would be pulsed when the finger wheel came to its normal stop.

Without internal images, who knows. But, the paragraph right above would work, would be complicated but it would work to get 10 pulses for 0. Anyone see this differently?

Jim Stettler

I agree with teleplay. I think the split drum sped up dialing.  I wrote this post  while his was being posted.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a split drum dial.  The intent is to speed the dialing process and thereby add capacity to the central office equipment be faster dialing by subscribers .


When you pull 0 on this dial it is much faster than 0 on a rotary dial. the pulse time is still the same but the dialing time is faster due to return speeds.
I think this is a concept set like the 3 column one on Paul's sit. It may be have  operating pulse type  dial.
JMO,
Jim
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

FABphones

#27
Quote from: TelePlay on February 22, 2020, 02:21:44 PM
Consider this....

Thanks for adding that.

Am now possibly falling on the side of the fence that says precursor to the prototype we know of.
I think the final bids will be quite revealing ( as would a few interior photos  :) )


ETA: Further to poplar1's post below, interesting that the base does not match the shell. During my time at STC, mock ups/prototypes were pulled together using what was to hand from the factory floor. No one cared about matching up parts or numbers. The priority was to get it to work. Specific parts were requested from the factory production line or individually made if/when needed (as I suspect the pull down finger hole component would have been on the phone in question, should it turn out to be genuine).

A collector of  'Monochrome Phones with Sepia Tones'   ...and a Duck!
***********
Vintage Phones - 10% man made, 90% Tribble
*************

poplar1

Quote from: phonium on February 22, 2020, 11:08:31 AM
I noticed on the bottom under "410AA3" it says "341". Could that be a trial number, like on D/P's 1948 prototype?

410 is a 2-line phone. The housing here is not for a 2-line because there is no hole for the key (2-line turn-button switch). "3" is probably the color code (black). 341 is the assembly date (March 1941).
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

TelePlay

Quote from: TelePlay on February 22, 2020, 02:21:44 PM
Consider this.

3)  The slot seems to say the "pull down" finger wheel is attached by a lever that only travels half the distance of the full vertical number plate.    . . . When dialing 0, it generates 5 pulses on the way down and the next 5 on the way up. That would work, it would be overly complicated, but it would account for 0 being at the bottom of the card, not the top.

To correct myself after reading this, it now seems what I said could only partially be true, or how it would work. Additive, stored pulses does not seem right. To get 10 pulses with one short stroke on the right side of the drum would require an interesting "drum" dial mechanism to determine a 0 was pulled and then to generate 10 pulses. The side by side option still exists with the finger stop determining which number was pulled down, which side produces the pulses (1-5 for the left side and 0-6 for the right side).

Seller is non-responsive to internal image request (I sent 3). He's either hiding something is not interested in getting the best sale price.  I think the listing might disappear in a few days by way of a side deal.