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Is this a military WE 302? I think so...

Started by shortrackskater, May 31, 2017, 12:24:33 PM

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shortrackskater

Thank you
And I just realized that the diagram does not show the proper dial I have in the phone,  which is a signal Corps TA 45 C - GT
Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

#16
Quote from: shortrackskater on June 06, 2017, 09:41:14 PM
Thank you
And I just realized that the diagram does not show the proper dial I have in the phone, which is a signal Corps TA 45 C - GT
You're welcome.

Right.  The diagram shows a 4H or 5H dial.  If yours has the AE-style dial shown in the photos they are very different, especially and including the terminal layout.  The WECo dials have lead color designations on the body.  AE dials and their clones never do but the relationship between the contact springs and terminal screws is much more obvious. 

You should be able to make do by relating the functions of the contact springs shown in the diagram with the functions of the contact springs on your dial.   However I have rotated Teleplay's photo to the orientation when installed in the phone, marked it up to show the corresponding lead colors associated with each screw and posted it here.

A little hard to see the association between contact springs and terminals but I believe this is correct.

shortrackskater

 Thank you again – that would be great because I'm lost on the dial wiring and I can't see the colors on the hook switch.
I'm a little too new at doing this.  :-\
Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: shortrackskater on June 06, 2017, 10:08:04 PM
Thank you again – that would be great because I'm lost on the dial wiring and I can't see the colors on the hook switch.
I'm a little too new at doing this.  :-\
You're welcome again.  Or maybe the wiring is a little too old.  :-\

Very bright white light from an LED flashlight together with a magnifying glass often is very helpful and the easiest first method.  The eye is challenged discerning the color of very small areas, so a magnifier helps.  Sometimes heat from a hair dryer or heat gun, applied sparingly, makes colors more visible.  Or wiping with an organic solvent such as alcohol may remove accumulated dirt absorbed from the air.

shortrackskater

I should have  been more detail but I disassembled the phone but I just thought I could wire it like my other WE304. Then I found out this was different!  Thank you – that picture is great.
Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

#20
Quote from: shortrackskater on June 06, 2017, 10:42:09 PM
I should have  been more detail but I disassembled the phone but I just thought I could wire it like my other WE304. Then I found out this was different!  Thank you – that picture is great.
Ah!  Thanks and you're welcome.  Sort of wondered why it was an obstacle.   Always best to make a sketch before disconnecting things unless you're certain you have a proper doc.

But now I'm confused.  There was a recent thread about a "302" (which actually turned out to be a 304) which seized the line due to gross wiring errors and once that was fixed, did not ring due to a bad ringer capacitor.  I didn't associate that thread with you but when I saw you say "I just thought I could wire it like my other WE304" I thought I had missed something.  But now looking back I see that was mblythe. 

Are you posting under two handles or are you referring to some 304 other than the one which was the topic of recent discussion?

shortrackskater

 No I posted my 304 questions under the same name back in January 2015.

I tried taking a guess at the colors and wiring. Got a faint dialtone but nothing else so I need to look closer here and try again.
Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: shortrackskater on June 06, 2017, 11:51:38 PM
No I posted my 304 questions under the same name back in January 2015.

I tried taking a guess at the colors and wiring. Got a faint dialtone but nothing else so I need to look closer here and try again.
Aha!  That's before my tour of duty on CRPF.  The owner of the recent 304 I mentioned found a BSP somewhere I think, probably in the TCI library and unbeldi posted a diagram he created.

This is the first of 3 pages of that topic: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18267.0

shortrackskater

The faint dial tone was a bad speaker. I swapped it out with my 302 and it's now a loud clear dial tone.
Still there's no dial and the hook switch only cuts the dial tone but not the line connection, if that makes sense. I need "civilian" wiring for this phone if that's possible. I'm wiring to the diagram I posted but I have no idea if that's correct.
Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: shortrackskater on June 07, 2017, 01:12:22 AM
The faint dial tone was a bad speaker. I swapped it out with my 302 and it's now a loud clear dial tone.
Still there's no dial and the hook switch only cuts the dial tone but not the line connection, if that makes sense. I need "civilian" wiring for this phone if that's possible. I'm wiring to the diagram I posted but I have no idea if that's correct.
Which phone are you talking about here that does not release the line?  The 304 or the TP6A AKA Mil 302?

Yes, it's possible for the dial tone to be cut off without releasing the line.  In fact mblythe's 304 (most likely purely a coincidence) had exactly the same problem.  I suggest reading that topic.   

Since one contact set (BR-BL & GN) opens the "receiver" (not "speaker") circuit and the other set (BR-YL & YL) opens the line, if due to a wiring error the line is not cut the receiver may still be cut off and you will cease to hear dial tone even though the line is still off hook when the buttons are depressed. 

But this is the example of a 302.  A 304 has 3 sets of contacts and I have not looked and don't know off hand which lead colors correspond to which switching functions in a 304.  Might be the same and might not.  Just explaining why what you observed is possible.  Based on this explanation and the diagram you might be able to follow the circuit paths and understand why, especially with unbeldi's diagram embedded in the mblythe thread.

As I said earlier I would, I have compared the lead connections of the switchhook in a 302 I have open with what's shown in this diagram: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18256.0;attach=162902;image

They match.  From front to back the lead order is BR-BL, GN, YL and BR-YL.  This is a 1938 production set so the BL in the BR-BL is nearly impossible to see and the BR-YL has very tiny yellow dots which require a magnifier even though the color is vivid, just because they are so small.

Where did you post a diagram you mentioned?  Using a diagram of a 302 or 304 to wire what model?

shortrackskater

#25
This is the diagram as first posted in reply #14.



This is all for the TP 6A but I was trying to use my 304 for wiring reference but it's too different.
Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

#26
Quote from: shortrackskater on June 07, 2017, 02:55:24 AM
This is all for the TP 6A but I was trying to use my 304 for wiring reference but it's too different.
You wrote: " I tried taking a guess at the colors and wiring. Got a faint dialtone but nothing else so I need to look closer here and try again. "

Since it was unclear in Reply #22 whether you were talking about your 304 or TP6A/302 it was also unclear what diagram you were referring to. 

You need to confirm that the TP6A is wired according to the 302 diagram except for the dial which needs to match the annotated photo, and that the switchhook contacts are opening.  Even if they weren't, if it was otherwise properly wired dialing a digit would make dial tone go away.

Regardless of other faults:

A weak dial tone could be a bad receiver unit.  Swap it with the one in the 304.

Is there sidetone?  There should be.

Are there loud clicks in the receiver when you operate the switchhook and dial?  There should not be.

Does removing the transmitter unit make the dial tone go away and release the line?  It should.

These are all clues as to whether there are other wiring errors as opposed to defective parts.

shortrackskater

Yes last night I swapped the receiver and now the dial tone is loud and clear. I'll recheck wiring and do the transmitter test today I hope. I'll try to be clear on all this. I'm caring for an elderly parent: doctors, shopping, yard, kitchen... endless stuff adds to my already confused brain.  :-\
Mark J.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: shortrackskater on June 07, 2017, 12:03:22 PM
Yes last night I swapped the receiver and now the dial tone is loud and clear. I'll recheck wiring and do the transmitter test today I hope. I'll try to be clear on all this. I'm caring for an elderly parent: doctors, shopping, yard, kitchen... endless stuff adds to my already confused brain.  :-\
OK, good.  Dial test, sidetone and clicks in the receiver under the various conditions described.

Sorry about that stuff.  You need the diversion of fiddling with phones for relief.  Do it as time permits.  No rush at this end.

shortrackskater

I have a bad receiver and transmitter. I've ordered some "new" replacements which should arrive tomorrow.
There's no loud clicks in the receiver when I activate the switchhook or dial.
And, removing the transmitter did nothing!
I still think there's a chance I've not wired it properly. I can't tell which wire corresponds to what position for the switchhook wiring.
Mark J.