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Real Silver Imperial 202 or not?

Started by unbeldi, November 10, 2013, 01:17:32 PM

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unbeldi

Auction: http://www.ebay.com/itm/301007902392

I suspect not.

Silver is plated, shows corrosion on inside.
Handset is non-WeCo
Cords are 500-series with wrong colors. Even appears to be miswired.
Subset appears out of style, but possible.  However, the mounting cord has only 3 conductors...
Selling price:  better forget it.

TelePlay

#1
For posterity, the phone sold for $185.50 plus $15 shipping. Has an LM Ericsson handset and a 101A network in the subset.

Seller stated: "I BELIEVE THIS TO BE AN IMPERIAL, SILVER, MODEL 202, 75TH ANNIVERSARY WESTERN ELECTRIC TELEPHONE.  WHAT IS DIFFERENT IS THAT THIS PHONE HAS AN ERICSSON HAND SET INSTEAD OF A WE. AND THE DIALER IS PLASTIC NOT METAL.  THE "IMPERIAL" WAS PRODUCED IN 1951 AS A SPECIAL  ANNIVERSARY SET.  THE CONDITION IS VERY GOOD.  THERE SEAMS TO BE ONLY VERY, VERY LIGHT "PITTING" ON THE BASE OF THE PHONE,  THAT MAY BUFF OUT TO NEXT TO NOTHING.  THE HANDSET IS IN NICE CONDITION WITH NO VISIBLE CRACKS.  THE RINGER IS A LITTLE DUSTY INSIDE AND HAS A FEW LIGHT PIT MARKS ON THE OUTSIDE.  THE PHONE OPERATES AS IT SHOULD, MAKING AND RECEIVING  CALLS WITH THE RINGER OPERATING LOUDLY. THE PHONE DOES LIGHTLY RING AS YOU DIAL OUT.  THIS DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THE OPERATION AT ALL.  IT HAS OUR STANDARD 4 WIRE {USES ONLY 2}  WALL JACK ON A BROWN CLOTH CORD. A LONG BLACK CORD LEADS FROM THE PHONE TO THE RINGER.  A VERY NICE PHONE AND RINGER THAT YOU JUST PLUG IN AND USE."

rdelius

Some of the gold ones if you remove the golden coating,they are silvery looking.Not the raw zinc polished.

poplar1

Subset is a 634BA with talk capacitor removed, would be OK with a 4-conductor mounting cord to phone. The clear finger wheel and the naugahyde? (in any case white) covering would be appropriate for an Imperial. So, it's possible that it started out as a gold or silver imperial, but someone made some "improvements" like adding the Ericsson handset and 3-conductor mounting cord from a 500, moving the phenol switch hook parts in order to make the mounting cord "fit," and miswiring the phone.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

I had asked the seller if there were any date stamps on any of the parts to substantiate the 1951 advertised date and there were none, they replied, which I suspected before-hand.

Is there any evidence in the record that these were made as early as the 75th anniversary of the Bell patent?  From my observations the Imperials started to appear in 1955, perhaps 54, and it seems like the idea was over by 1956 or so.  The story that these were produced in commemoration of the anniversary sounds nice, but seems more likely to be a myth.

Please correct me.

poplar1

There are some ads or bill inserts for the Continentals, but I don't know off hand from what year. I seem to recall that there was a $4.00 one-time charge for the upgrade to a Continental.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

#6
Quote from: unbeldi on November 10, 2013, 09:24:49 PM
I had asked the seller if there were any date stamps on any of the parts to substantiate the 1951 advertised date and there were none, they replied, which I suspected before-hand.

Is there any evidence in the record that these were made as early as the 75th anniversary of the Bell patent?  From my observations the Imperials started to appear in 1955, perhaps 54, and it seems like the idea was over by 1956 or so.  The story that these were produced in commemoration of the anniversary sounds nice, but seems more likely to be a myth.

Please correct me.


Just looked at 10 Continentals and Imperials: 9 of the 10 support your hypothesis of 1954-1956 dates.
8 are 1955, 1 is 1956, 1 is apparently 1952.
9 are 1955, 1 is 1956

Estimates:
Total Dials (1) 4J  (5) 5J (3) 6D (1) blank
Total Handsets (6) F4 (3) F1 (1) missing
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

#7
This Imperial dated 1956 ironically has an F1 handset, not an F4. Also, the handset is Tenite, not painted.

D4AN D4U mounting cord I 56
H3P handset cord  55
F1 handle 2-56
F1 transmitter unit 1/56
HA1 receiver (can't read date)
5J dial 9-51 55L [lubricated 1955]
164A number plate II 55

This one was from one of Sonny's pickers in Minneapolis. His job had been to haul stuff from the WE service center to the dump, but a few se sauvaient [escaped]. These had never been installed.

So it's quite possible that 1956 was the last year they ran the Imperial line.

In any case, by 1959 the Princess was available, which carried not only a $7.00 one time charge, but 70 cents per month in addition to the $1.50 per month extension charge.  As far as I know, the Imperial did not have a monthly surcharge, just the charge for an extension unless it was the main phone. (One main phone was included in the monthly line charge.)
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

#8
I think I would even exclude the year 1954 from my estimated range. I included it to be "safer" in my hypothesis.

When you state:  "1 is apparently 1952"  what is the reason for the uncertainty?
I have an ivory with a 5H dial of 1952, but I suspect it to be not genuine Continental, it should have a 5J perhaps, very hard if not impossible to tell, because the cords are not original.

poplar1

The green Continental in question has the following parts:

D-1 hand set mounting II 34
Dial marked 4H [converted 2A] 2-49T conversion date; rim is painted green; brushed aluminum (?) finger wheel
H3AD black handset cord III 49
F1 handle 6-06-38--black painted green
Transmitter 7-51
Receiver 10-27-49
Receiver cap 9-52

Guess was based on above: 9-52 latest date, and 2A>4H dial
Even though dial has not been recoded 4J, the rim has been painted to match the green phone, and the finger wheel is bare metal---apparently brushed aluminum.

However, I forgot to check the number plate, which is a 164A dated....I 55.  That could mean the phone was reissued in 1955.

The number plate could have been changed in the field, but it's doubtful that the phone could have been converted before 9-52, the date on the painted receiver cap. Still, the 1949 handset cord and dial not being a 5J or 6D--rather older--make this one seem different.

Black cords are often found on green Continentals, and the finger wheels can be either metal or Lucite.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

Quote from: unbeldi on November 10, 2013, 11:16:07 PM

I have an ivory with a 5H dial of 1952, but I suspect it to be not genuine Continental, it should have a 5J perhaps, very hard if not impossible to tell, because the cords are not original.

Cords and recharge dates on the transmitters are usually good indicators of a remanufacture date. But the transmitters didn't always get restamped. Bill B. told me that they "didn't always have time" to redate the transmitters. Still, F1 transmitters often have several dates.

Is the rim painted white on the dial of your ivory set?
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

Quote from: poplar1 on November 10, 2013, 11:57:01 PM
Is the rim painted white on the dial of your ivory set?

The rim is painted ivory, but not very well done, only about half the depth of the dial side is painted, underneath is the original black color. The rest of the phone has excellent paint coverage, no wear in the cradle.

Handset is F4.
The dial face plate is II::55, which I hadn't recorded before...  that blows the 1952 date as well.

poplar1

5 more:
4 seem to be 1955s, 1 is definitely 1952

The one dated 1952 doesn't really fit the description of a Continental:
(1) It is old rose, not the usual green, pekin red or ivory
(2) Underneath the paint, the handset is brown Bakelite, not black---this is typical for painted 302s but not for Continentals
(3) 1952 seems to be about 3 years earlier than the "herd."

Old Rose 202 (R202C-16F):
5J dial 5-52 [painted white rim]
150B number plate with Z [Z=1953 or earlier]
D4U mounting cord '52
H3C handset cord '52
HA1 rec S 1-16-46 R II 52
F1 handset 99 [4/49]
F1 trans 8-47 R [no date after the R]

"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

Quote from: unbeldi on November 11, 2013, 12:35:50 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on November 10, 2013, 11:57:01 PM
Is the rim painted white on the dial of your ivory set?

The rim is painted ivory, but not very well done, only about half the depth of the dial side is painted, underneath is the original black color. The rest of the phone has excellent paint coverage, no wear in the cradle.

Handset is F4.
The dial face plate is II::55, which I hadn't recorded before...  that blows the 1952 date as well.


I found 3 with rims painted to match the phone:
(1) green rim on 4H dial listed above---bare metal finger wheel
(2) green rim on 3-49 5H--bare metal finger wheel
(3) ivory rim on 5-55 6D--Lucite finger wheel--even though the rim was already white

"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

Quote from: poplar1 on November 11, 2013, 10:03:21 AM
Quote from: unbeldi on November 11, 2013, 12:35:50 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on November 10, 2013, 11:57:01 PM
Is the rim painted white on the dial of your ivory set?

The rim is painted ivory, but not very well done, only about half the depth of the dial side is painted, underneath is the original black color. The rest of the phone has excellent paint coverage, no wear in the cradle.

Handset is F4.
The dial face plate is II::55, which I hadn't recorded before...  that blows the 1952 date as well.


I found 3 with rims painted to match the phone:
(1) green rim on 4H dial listed above---bare metal finger wheel
(2) green rim on 3-49 5H--bare metal finger wheel
(3) ivory rim on 5-55 6D--Lucite finger wheel--even though the rim was already white


Interesting, so there is precedence of painting the dial rim in the same housing color.