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Candlestick Question (Pink/Red Spots In Brass)

Started by ItalianAce, April 01, 2013, 12:10:06 AM

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ItalianAce

I have a fast question. I have a few candlesticks 50ALs, etc. (I'm only into the 20AL, 50AL; not interested in any of the post desk stand models or 151 models) They're original (if not I make them original again...I can spot a repro easily lol). I get them from old closed up or abandon buildings or stuff. I've restored their dials  (usually #4s converted from #2s...I would backwards restore them but can never find #2 finger stops thats reasonably priced or doesnt look rotted out[ My question is hehe does anyone else have WE Candlesticks with pink/red spots in the brass. Wondering if this is something I should be concerned about. I'm guessing painting over it wouldn't do any good? Wouldn't matter I guess since I don't want to paint over the brass lol. One of my  phones the whole perch and pole is filled with little pink spots. It kind of looks good in a way as it makes the phone look original/aged and not reproduced, but I'm wondering if it will harm the brass on the phone later on in life. Every desk stand phone I have...has at least a few pin drop pink/red spots in the brass. I usually don't repaint the phones and just strip off the left over black paint as its usually in such horrid shape anyhow from 75+ years of age. I like and prefer them brass showing (and I know...the phones were black when put out into installation).  I believe the brass looks far superior in show than black (just my thing). Anyone else have red spots/pink spots on their desk sets. Anything to be concerned about?  Here's are two pictures of one of my phones Im presently restoring (Im 75 percent done). The second one is a picture of the pink spots.

dencins

The pink spots are copper oxide.  Brass is an alloy consisting mainly of copper and zinc.  Two ways the pink spots can appear:

1.  Brass is made by melting zinc and copper together.  It is possible some of the copper may not have mixed with the zinc leaving the copper in some areas.
2.  Zinc is very reactive to acid so if the phone has been exposed to acid or acid vapors, the zinc would oxidize leaving the copper.

Dennis Hallworth

ItalianAce

#2
Yeah. That's what I was thinking, but I wasn't entirely sure. I guess 'Red Rot' is what they call it. Or maybe its just simply the copper without zinc. Hopefully it wont deteriorate beyond spots (or cause little pinhead holes in the brass of the phone). This particular phone has it up and down (except the base) with most of the spots on the handle, some on the transmitter cup, and on the switchook. I know some will say best bet is to power coat or paint with retention black paint...but these phones to me look so much better just brass hehe.

DavePEI

Quote from: ItalianAce on April 01, 2013, 01:41:20 AM
Yeah. That's what I was thinking, but I wasn't entirely sure. I guess 'Red Rot' is what they call it. Or maybe its just simply the copper without zinc. Hopefully it wont deteriorate beyond spots (or cause little pinhead holes in the brass of the phone). This particular phone has it up and down (except the base) with most of the spots on the handle, some on the transmitter cup, and on the switchook. I know some will say best bet is to power coat or paint with retention black paint...but these phones to me look so much better just brass hehe.
Well, the best preventative without changing their colour would be to make sure it is cleaned up as well as you can, then spray it with a good clear lacquer. That would prevent any corrosion, and keep it looking as good as it does now.

Dace
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ItalianAce

#4
Oh yeah. I have them lacquered but the jewelry store does that for about $30.00; they do a far better job than I can (painting is not my hot spot lol) and they use the lacquered that's put on 14K GF watches or solid brass grandmother clock movements. This has not been done yet on this particular phone because it's in restoration (wiring/dial was a mess), but this one is the first one I've seen where the red dots are all over the perch and hand grip which makes me think a lot of sweaty hands must of used this phone when the paint was about gone. My other phones might have the usual one or two or three little red dots. Making me wonder if lacquered or paint can even salvage it especially the inside of the phone. I think the problem with this phone is its one of those junkyard finds, and must have been sitting outside a long time with most of its original paint finish gone, so its developed a fair amount of red spots (but pin drop in sizes). The red/copper spots look kind of nice; ads history/value to the phone, and the way the red spots fall in patern from the 323 transmitter to almost the base shows indication the phone has been one piece from start to finished (not mixed and matched over time). I'm just concerned the phone will eventually just fill with holes if the copper eventually falls out like with brass horns. Im a diehard; I hate to give up on a good phone lol. Especially this one as it's an early 50AL production run (1918 pat on the side of base instead of front).  Spent enough time with its #2 dial as it is. Maybe I'll just hit this one with prevention black paint to better secure it and prevent the brass sun exposure, etc.  Anyone else have WE Desk Stands with red spots by chance? Do you think it adds or takes away? Im leading to it adds to the historical purpose and look (but the fact it can eventually call brass failure is an issue).

mienaichizu


HowardPgh

Those spots may a reaction to paint stripper chemicals.
Howard

Bill

Dennis -

You have more knowledge than most of us. Could you do something with this problem? Chemically clean? Replate over the dots, even if the surface wasn't perfect?

Bill

Quote from: dencins
The pink spots are copper oxide.  Brass is an alloy consisting mainly of copper and zinc.  Two ways the pink spots can appear:

1.  Brass is made by melting zinc and copper together.  It is possible some of the copper may not have mixed with the zinc leaving the copper in some areas.
2.  Zinc is very reactive to acid so if the phone has been exposed to acid or acid vapors, the zinc would oxidize leaving the copper.

Dennis Hallworth


ItalianAce

Yeah I wondering the same. Only thing I could think of is clean it, polish it, and then hit it with laq or paint. True about chemicals. I use light grain metal sand paper to strip off the paint (than buff it a tiny tiny bit) when taking off the older paint so not to damage any copper coating that might be under it from paint thinner or other stuff (553As or #2 Dials has that copper coating under the paint to help pretect it from currosion). Western Electric had awesome paint lol. I use goof off to get off most armature "slot it on in the back yard" paint jobs off, but WE's paint job under all those coats is pretty tough and sometimes I just leave it as a protector and paint over it. However...who knows what the individuals that owned it before did. Im thinking more sweaty palms and hands using it while the paint had thinned away for so many years without proper care. I did some research today into it, and it seems common on brass instruments, but irreversible.  If its zinc not taking too the copper, than the copper I think would be find when sealed with a protective coat. But if its "Red Rot" than that is a problem hehe. I see them almost on all phones...but usually a small spot here and there. However this one particular phone has it all over (and interesting enough mostly on the perch and handle where of course oily hands would be holding and touching it).

dencins

#9
Quote from: Bill on April 01, 2013, 04:10:40 PM
Dennis -

You have more knowledge than most of us. Could you do something with this problem? Chemically clean? Replate over the dots, even if the surface wasn't perfect?

Bill

Quote from: dencins
The pink spots are copper oxide.  Brass is an alloy consisting mainly of copper and zinc.  Two ways the pink spots can appear:

1.  Brass is made by melting zinc and copper together.  It is possible some of the copper may not have mixed with the zinc leaving the copper in some areas.
2.  Zinc is very reactive to acid so if the phone has been exposed to acid or acid vapors, the zinc would oxidize leaving the copper.

Dennis Hallworth

Bill

My general approach when re-plating nickel is not to try to remove the pink spots but to sand them until the surface is smooth.  Sometimes the spots will be gone and other times they are there until I plate over them.  You can not tell how deep the pink spot goes in the metal and if you try to sand it out you may destroy or change the shape of the part.  Some parts do not have enough thickness like door escutcheons to sand.  Others like the grooves on AE handset rings or parts with embossed or stamped numbers and letters like patent dates limit how much sanding can be done.

I make a judgement decision to start with 220 or 600 grit sandpaper depending on the depth of scratches or pitting in the surface.  

1.  Start with either 220 or 600 grit sandpaper
2.  1000 grit sandpaper
3.  1500 grit sandpaper
4.  0000 steel wool
5.  Red rouge compound on a buffing machine
6.  Electroplate the part with copper
7.  Polish by hand with Flitz meal polish and cotton balls
8.  Nickel electroplate

This process will give a mirror finish.  

Since it is not possible to tell the depth of the pink spot, chemical removal is not advised.  Also since brass is copper/zinc then any chemical that would remove the pink spot (copper oxide) will also react with the brass.

I have found any pitting around the pink spots is usually removed by sanding but if the pitting is still visible after copper plating do a series of copper plate followed by sanding until the pits are not visible then I nickel plate.

Dennis Hallworth