The gradual migration from copper to fiber has reached my section of northern Manhattan. Verizon is to retire copper service in my area by the end of February 2018. It's my understanding that it's the cable serving the building that will be fiber but the copper wiring inside the building will still be used. I'll also have to decide on a new internet service since DSL only works over copper and not over fiber.
Verizon says that faxes and answering machines will continue to work as they did on copper. Has anyone experience with how this affects rotary dialing and mechanical ringers? My chances of finding somebody at the phone company who actually believes somebody still uses those are slim, fat, and none.
Surely any changes to your service by the provider have to be backwards compatible, don't they?
If fax machines will still work then I imagine rotary phones will too. Back when faxes were a thing many of them were pulse dialling, so if it's been said they will work then I guess you should be ok.
The other option of course is to go the VOIP route and send your phone signal over the internet using the extra bandwidth yoh should get with fibre. There are various ways of connecting old phones up to this.
The problem with rotary (or pushbutton pulse dial) is officially nobody these days actually "supports" it, it's just a legacy left over that would have cost more to remove from the exchange than it was to just leave it in place, and replacements such as ATAs for VoIP services don't always have pulse-dialling options available as they don't see it as a requirement in the 21st century...
The same happens here in Norway, so I have been looking for a voip provider and the number of those has been reduced considerably the last year, and lots of them, like Verizon do not want private customers, only companies. I have good experience with the Callcentric, (Great service!) but they charge me far to much if I want to port my telephone number from Norway, probably because it actually cost them to much. Not many companies lets me choose my own ATA, so I am not sure what I want, but I'm sure they do not let me play with impedance matching, dial tones and ring cadences.
On the other side it might have been smart to wait until only the strongest competitors remain, then I hopefully do not have to change provider to when they decide.
:-\
dsk
Well if I have to go VOIP - where legacy equipment won't work - it's not necessary for me to stay with Verizon because there won't be any advantage for me. I can compare what the competing cable companies offer in New York.
My first thought was to go with fiber/building copper voice for phone and add on a FIOS line for internet. But from the anecdotal stories I've read Verizon won't allow the two to co-exist - the FIOS technician would rip the copper wires in the basement.
It might be fun to call customer service just to jerk their chain. "What kind of legacy equipment?" "Eight Western Electric telephones ranging from 1903 to 1933. Four of them with rotary dials. Plus an electro-mechanical tea bell auxiliary ringer."
Are you living in your own house or in an apartment or condo building in Manhattan ?
The infrastructure for FiOS Internet access and Verizon voice-only over fiber isn't much different, I don't think, but the details depend on the type building and its existing wiring. In older multi-tenant structures with existing copper wiring, Verizon will probably install large multiple-customer fiber terminal equipment for groups of residences in the existing wiring areas. IIRC, these are boxes of the size of about 3 feet by 2 or so. From there on, they use existing cabling, whether it is coax (CATV) or twisted pair (telephone). Internet access is often provided with VDSL modems for data speeds to about 50 Mbit/s or VDSL2 beyond that. So, it looks pretty much the same from a practical point of view as other DSL services.
Verizon voice over this infrastructure comes to your residence in the same twisted pair as before, and from my experiences with a couple of installations it does support pulse dialing, but the specifications for pulse rate appear to be somewhat narrower, particularly on the lower bound than traditional POTS. With a Sage 930A test set, I saw signaling errors when the pulse rate dropped below 9 pulses per second, but on the high end it was ok up to about 15 pps. My notes state that I used break ratios successfully between 40% and 66%. These numbers probably vary somewhat with each installation, depending on the quality of inside wiring. My test number for the measurements was 1-800-CALL-ATT.
In single-family houses, they usually bring fiber into the house to a convenient location and install a single customer OTN unit, which has all required interfaces, twisted pair, Ethernet, and coax, ready to connect to existing wiring in the house.
Quote from: mariepr on March 04, 2017, 10:43:40 AM
It might be fun to call customer service just to jerk their chain. "What kind of legacy equipment?" "Eight Western Electric telephones ranging from 1903 to 1933. Four of them with rotary dials. Plus an electro-mechanical tea bell auxiliary ringer."
I don't think that is jerking their chain. It's actually a legitimate enquiry. You're a customer who happens to use older equipment. This equipment has worked ok for many years and you want to carry on using it. They should be required to maintain their service.
If they don't maintain their service it's a bit like if oil companies suddenly put something in gasoline which required you to go and buy a new car.
Personally I'm future-proofed anyway because everything is behind a PABX which puts out tones to the outside world. This is also connected to C*net VOIP lines which work so well I use C*net wherever possible.
Quote from: unbeldi on March 04, 2017, 11:15:16 AM
Are you living in your own house or in an apartment or condo building in Manhattan ?.....
I thought I posted a reply last night but I don't see it here. Anyway, I live in a coop apartment so preparing the basement utility room for the fiber transition is the building management's headache. I've already contacted the property manager and asked where they are on this.
My letter from Verizon states that the voice service will work the same way it's just that DSL cannot be sent over fiber. So I'm thinking of going with fiber from the CO/copper building wiring for voice. For internet I might go with FIOS internet but most definitely NOT the FIOS voice. That's all digital and legacy equipment won't work on that.
When reading through there site I found an interesting piece of information regarding FIOS voice. What should one do if there's no dial tone on the digital phone? The answer? Check that it's plugged into AC, and/or check that the battery is charged! How ironic that their most advanced voice service is.....Local Battery!
Quote from: andy1702 on March 05, 2017, 03:33:08 AM
I don't think that is jerking their chain. It's actually a legitimate enquiry. You're a customer who happens to use older equipment. This equipment has worked ok for many years and you want to carry on using it. They should be required to maintain their service.
If they don't maintain their service it's a bit like if oil companies suddenly put something in gasoline which required you to go and buy a new car.
Personally I'm future-proofed anyway because everything is behind a PABX which puts out tones to the outside world. This is also connected to C*net VOIP lines which work so well I use C*net wherever possible.
Well, if there would be no way my legacy phones would work there would be no advantage for me to stay with Verizon. The problem with going with a cable company is that there are no internet only packages, just television/internet bundles. Fortunately I don't have to do anything next week or next month. It's good to have knowledge of the options.
Quote from: mariepr on March 06, 2017, 01:04:56 AM
Well, if there would be no way my legacy phones would work there would be no advantage for me to stay with Verizon. The problem with going with a cable company is that there are no internet only packages, just television/internet bundles. Fortunately I don't have to do anything next week or next month. It's good to have knowledge of the options.
Marie - check with the cable company. I'm pretty sure that they have Internet-only service - they just don't advertise it. With all of the various programming options, I fully can see a time when the cable company offers internet with a TV add-on, vs. the other way around... Though you may want to check if they have an Internet + (extremely) basic cable package. For me, the Internet service at my level (50 Mbps) itself is $79/month. The same level of Internet + basic cable (local channels + a few others) is $69/month. Go figure...
Jim
Quote from: mariepr on March 06, 2017, 12:58:48 AM
I thought I posted a reply last night but I don't see it here. Anyway, I live in a coop apartment so preparing the basement utility room for the fiber transition is the building management's headache. I've already contacted the property manager and asked where they are on this.
My letter from Verizon states that the voice service will work the same way it's just that DSL cannot be sent over fiber. So I'm thinking of going with fiber from the CO/copper building wiring for voice. For internet I might go with FIOS internet but most definitely NOT the FIOS voice. That's all digital and legacy equipment won't work on that.
When reading through there site I found an interesting piece of information regarding FIOS voice. What should one do if there's no dial tone on the digital phone? The answer? Check that it's plugged into AC, and/or check that the battery is charged! How ironic that their most advanced voice service is.....Local Battery!
I don't understand the contradiction that you create in this post. Verizon states, just as I have described earlier, that telephone service will work just like before. Do you not believe Verizon ? That is an accurate statement, there is nothing digital about it from the subscriber's point of view. It is a twisted pair with dial tone just like before, but it comes from the embedded telephone adapter in the FiOS equipment, and not directly from a remote central office. For all practical purposes, the customer doesn't know the service is based on fiber. However, as I mentioned, if you are using rotary phones, some will likely fail dialing, while others will continue to work fine.
If you are subscribing to DSL Internet access now from a third party—does anyone do that anymore ?—then indeed that won't work anymore, you have to get the service from Verizon, and it will likely still be delivered by DSL, VDSL that is, from the basement to your apartment.
If you opt for a cable company, then Internet access, voice, and TV are delivered by coax into your apartment to a CPE that has an Ethernet jack, an RJ11 jack and a TV coax jack.
I agree with Unbeldi. Just like if you received dial tone from a cable company, the signal is delivered to the basement of a multi tenant building or to your apartment in some sort of digital format and then converted to a two conductor copper circuit to feed your apartment phones. The service may be slightly different in that it might not be as tolerant of dial speed though it could just as easily be more tolerant but it will basically work the same way. If it doesn't accept dial pulses that is only because they have designed or programmed it to work that way.
Delivering Internet to your apartment creates another challenge for them as they likely aren't going to run fiber or Cat 5 cable throughout your building to each apartment. So they need something similar to ADSL with a modem on each end to deliver the data signal over the existing copper pair or coax cable from the basement to your apartment.
They aren't going to spend all that money on fiber installation to your building and then say we're sorry, we can't provide you internet access any longer, we are more than happy with the small revenue from just your phone line so here is the phone number for our competitors for Internet.
Terry
In my area, Verizon has turned over the operations of all copper lines to the Frontier company. I think based in Florida ?
D/P
Yes rather than spending all the money for fiber conversion in all their exing territory, they sold off many areas such as yours to bring in cash to fund the fiber conversion in the areas that they kept.
Terry
What's happening here is a fiber cable all the way in to our living room. ( I insisted to stop in a closet) where they puts in boxes for TV Phone and internet, all powered on my electricity bill, and everything will go down when we get a power-out! The IP telephone are at least 35% off compared to POTS.
They will not rip out the copper wires, and I may still keep the POTS line for whatever it costs.
dsk
Just to follow up, I called Verizon yesterday to arrange for the fiber transition. My plan was to keep my POTS over fiber for voice and to go with FIOS just for internet. After a brief period on hold the agent told me that my apartment building was not yet eligible for FIOS. This doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence in Verizon as they had twice sent me a personally addressed letters to outline my options: the first that copper was to be retired and the second to please make a conversion appointment by April 30th. One would think that they should have more precise targeting mailing. ::) So now I wait a few weeks to see if and when FIOS is ready.
The original phone wiring in my apartment must have reflected the installation standard of the late 1930s. The lines were twisted cloth-covered pairs that were run around the perimeter of door frames and over baseboards. I recently replaced the last over-baseboard line with station wire run inside a wall and exiting through an RJ11 plate. Now that I have copper RJ11 jacks where I want them I'd like to keep them.
Verizon's mailing of their FIOS marketing materials has been confusing everywhere it seems, and the databases for their people used to advise customers don't seem to be updated very often. Years ago, they sent out flyers around here announcing availability, and upon consulting with neighbors across the street and by inspection it was clear that it had been installed in the block north and the next cross-street. But on our side it was not available. After upgrading to faster Internet access with the cable company, the neighbors got FIOS installed just a few weeks later !
Anyhow...
Quote
My plan was to keep my POTS over fiber for voice and to go with FIOS just for internet.
What do you have now?
"POTS over fiber" is not something that exists. By definition, POTS is "plain old telephone service" and entails a local loop of copper wire to the central office or the local concentrator, providing all traditional BORSCHT functions on that copper loop. Having an ATA in the basement may look and work almost identically, but it is not POTS. The term "POTS" has indeed been much abused, true, because an ATA at the end of a fiber or on an Ethernet providing analog service locally is not much different from the subscriber point of view than what a concentrator provides that is linked to a central office via a carrier system, or even via fiber optics as well. But those run on different protocols than an IP-based telephone network.
For most people with an existing carrier like Verizon, the transition to fiber should be almost invisible. One day you come home, and the copper loop has been replaced with a fiber link, which you only know because you've been told or you saw the trucks. Not much to worry about, except for the annoyance that some or all of your rotary phones won't dial correctly anymore.
Right now I have old fashioned POTS - copper all the way. For internet I have DSL. Here is how Verizon is describing the process:
QuoteWe will extend the fiber optic facilities to your location and our technician will install the Optical Network Terminal (ONT). The placement of this equipment will vary depending on the type of home you live in or the lay out of your business. We should be able to use the existing wiring and you will be able to use your existing telephones.
As for DSL, that is only available over copper:
QuoteThis is not Fios voice service. It is your existing voice service, only provided over fiber instead of copper, at the same price, terms, and conditions. Any devices that rely on your current voice service, such as facsimile, security alarms connected to a central station, or medical monitoring equipment, will continue to work in the same way as they did over copper. For High Speed Internet customers, the product you currently have is not available on fiber, but Verizon can provide you with a Fios Internet product that is significantly faster at a special rate...
So coming home to find that the only phone that works is my 1970s era touch tone and I've got no internet would be a most unpleasant surprise. If they pull my internet service with no notice or alternative then a competing cable company is more deserving of my business.
Verizon will not pull your Internet access service without notice, especially if it is purchased from them.
If it is Verizon DSL now, they will most likely schedule an install visit to replace your current DSL box with a VDSL box that reuses the existing building telephone wiring to a VDSL adapter in the wiring room where their equipment is. That means you will still have DSL, in the form of VDSL or VDSL2, very high bit rate versions, but it only runs from the ONT to your apartment.
It is up to the apartment building management to change that and upgrade the building wiring to CAT5 or CAT6 if the residents demand Ethernet wiring, or any other technology. In that case, Verizon will evaluate the local wiring and adapt their equipment to what is best for them or for you.
If your DSL Internet access is provided by another party, then that party will notify you in advance that they can no longer provide the service, because Verizon does not support the DSLAM (DSL access multiplexer) equipment anymore for that provider in the local central office. Verizon will coordinate that with those providers, since they know to whom they are providing shared access to the cable plant from the central office.
No vendor just pulls the plug these days without advance notification.
Here in the UK, VDSL is erroneously referred to by BT-Openreach as "Superfast Fibre", as it's actually fibre to a street cabinet (FTTC, or Fibre to the Cabinet) up to a Kilometre away (by wire) and then injecting the VDSL signal into existing copper for the rest of the way to the house, delivering an "up to" 80Mbps internet service, with the copper carrying traditional calls back to the telephone exchange over the original copper, makes no sense really, but does leave the phone operational when the internet is down, which thankfully isn't often here...
We're years off ever seeing FTTP (Fibre to the Premises) thanks to BT management saying some years ago that "The UK doesn't need it", and now, we're in need of it thanks to streaming services like youtube, TV channels and suchlike with multiple people per household accessing them requiring high-bandwidth access, and all of a sudden, our internet services are becoming completely inadequate, with limited allocations for FTTC availability, rural customers not even having access to ADSL and stuck with dialup (yes, in this small, tiny, microscopic by comparison country, there are people stuck with dialup!!!), it's an absolute mess, all thanks to profit-driven decisions to not keep the networks up-to-date... ::)
Copper won't go away totally.... I saw Centurylink working on a interface cabinet next to our mobile home park. its a fiber to copper interface... and until the system it totally converted to fiber.... copper will continue to be used... Lord Knows, I have enough of it in my house....
Quote from: Babybearjs on April 22, 2017, 12:02:03 AM
Copper won't go away totally.... I saw Centurylink working on a interface cabinet next to our mobile home park. its a fiber to copper interface... and until the system it totally converted to fiber.... copper will continue to be used... Lord Knows, I have enough of it in my house....
In my neighborhood Century link is installing fiber to the home. I don't currently use Century Link but they have the drops for me and the neighbor coiled at the pole. I am waiting to see what specials they offer.
Jim S.
Yesterday I did some online searching and found several complaints which claimed that Verizon sabotaged customers who tried to do exactly what I had planned to do. For my legacy phones it was go with the fiber-to-the-home/copper inside the home transition, but add a Fios line for internet. However there were claims that Verizon can't/won't do that and where the two did work is was for a limited time and then the fiber/copper voice line went dead. (Oh my, don't you hate that when it happens? We'll have to switch you to Fios voice as well.)
After reading that, it looks like I'll go with internet only from a competing cable company. Then once that's in place I'll get on with the fiber/copper transition. There will be no Fios internet line for them to move me over to. If Verizon's attitude is what it appears to be then the only thing in it for me to stay with them at all is to maintain functionality with legacy phones.
And they wonder why people are pulling land lines and moving to wireless competitors. ::)
I'll follow up with how it goes as this tread might be useful to other forum members when copper retirement reaches them.
Well, online "complaints" have all kinds of motivations or reasons. I wouldn't believe 90% of that, because they won't let you examine the true facts. It is a favorite sport of many to smear whoever the incumbent carrier of services is or was. Every provider has problems with certain customers, and vice versa.
All providers configure their offerings to lock customers into buying all three services from them, TV, telephone, and Internet. The moment you remove one of these services, cost goes up disproportionally per service, and complications arise for often valid technical reasons.
Old apartment buildings typically have the problem of limited wiring, which may prohibit using more than a single provider. For example, if you got telephone and DSL Internet access from the telephone company, they both use the same twisted pair wiring into the apartment, and you usually can't split that twisted pair between two service providers. Same with coax cable. You only have one cable likely coming into the apartment, so you can't have cable company Internet and FiOS TV, in case they give you a good deal for TV plus phone service.
The easiest and cheapest service, that will likely also work the best, is to go with a single provider, they will evaluate the available cabling and install the proper equipment for that location. If you live in your own house, you control all the cabling, and can run whatever is needed without restrictions, and that is likely the only scenario in which it is easy to pick out custom plans.
Yes, both the cable company and Verizon are offering a "bundle" of Internet/TV/phone that is roughly $30/month promotional for one year and then triples after the teaser rate expires. Since I don't have a television and don't want digital phones the bundle is useless to me.
My building already has service from one of the NY cable companies so it's a matter of running a cable from the basement to my apartment. Given the number of older residents havingPOTS lines I doubt (and hope not) they run the cable by using the old copper line to pull it through.
That's one of the reasons why I wanted to stay with Centurylink...Cable One was offering a good deal with strings attached.... my friend Robert said I should try them, as relunctant as I was, I went ahead and did it... the price wound up being better then expected...2 phone lines and the internet.... all for $112.00 a month. With centurylink, it was over $125.00 a month...(taxes) so I won... 2 phone lines plus 100 Mbps Internet... (centurylink could only off 20 Mbps) Verizon is a rip-off because they have some serious strings attached... If my Cable bill goes through the roof, then I'll switch back... but for now, its a 5 year price lock.....(or so it says on my bill) One of the other reasons to add cable was to reestablish the wiring on the house, the drop line was removed when I bought it, thinking I'd never need it.... (yeh, Right.....)
Well, taking all the comments into consideration, this is looking more and more disappointing. Unless I'm willing to give up internet there is no way I'm going to be able to keep telephone service that worked just like it did before. It's being forced to Fios digital voice (according to the complaints I've read) or forced to the cable company's digital voice.
Quote from: mariepr on April 23, 2017, 08:46:27 AM
Well, taking all the comments into consideration, this is looking more and more disappointing. Unless I'm willing to give up internet there is no way I'm going to be able to keep telephone service that worked just like it did before. It's being forced to Fios digital voice (according to the complaints I've read) or forced to the cable company's digital voice.
That is the essence of the fiber transition, to retire the old copper plant. It is not only inefficient to maintain two or three separate networks, but the public wants converged services that are better and enhance a modern lifestyle. The use of land lines has been plummeting for years, the customers don't want them, and neither do the providers.
You probably won't even notice the difference between FiOS Voice and the old POTS, with the exception that only the well tuned rotary dials continue to operate, as the margin for dial speed appears to be just a bit narrower on the slow side than previously. In addition, you get caller*id on your television, you can watch TV on the tablet computer and smart phone, use your smart phone as a remote control, manage your voice messages online.
I am sure some people felt sad when they had to give up cranking the magneto generator, and talk to the operator when making a phone call, but that too was perceived by the vast majority of users as progress.
Bit of a side tangent here; but what would they do with the old network? Abandon in place? I know big components are gutted and scrapped, but what about the wire and all those other small bits? They would have a scrap value, but could be A LOT of work to collect all that.
Also, along the line of abandonment....saw this at work yesterday. Now I'm no expert but it looks like verizion might be testing that "abandon in place" practice already here.
And I thought Austin Minis had issues with wet wires... :o
QuoteUnless I'm willing to give up internet there is no way I'm going to be able to keep telephone service that worked just like it did before.Quote
Marie
May I make a suggestion. Assuming you can get some sort of Internet service through your cable company or by piggy backing on a neighbors WiFi (with their permission of course) get Vonage for your phone service.
I have one pots line (with no long distance service) and two Vonage numbers. Vonage works perfectly with rotary dialing. I use the second Vonage line to call the first to test the incoming call detectors in the payphones I build for Ebay. Not knowing the telephone service provider of the person that's going to end up with what I build, I prefer to use Vonage to test the rotary phones because the specs on the ATA they provide are much tighter than the pots line. The only reason I still have pots is for emergencies. If it goes in the future no great loss.
You might also try getting the most inexpensive cell service you can find and using an Xlink. Plug all your rotary phones into the Xlink. They will work perfectly.
Stan S.
Quote from: unbeldi on April 23, 2017, 09:27:04 AM
I am sure some people felt sad when they had to give up cranking the magneto generator, and talk to the operator when making a phone call, but that too was perceived by the vast majority of users as progress.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zjlLb0tqGs
About 1:15 in.
Quote from: unbeldi on April 23, 2017, 09:27:04 AM
That is the essence of the fiber transition, to retire the old copper plant. It is not only inefficient to maintain two or three separate networks, but the public wants converged services that are better and enhance a modern lifestyle. The use of land lines has been plummeting for years, the customers don't want them, and neither do the providers.
You probably won't even notice the difference between FiOS Voice and the old POTS, with the exception that only the well tuned rotary dials continue to operate, as the margin for dial speed appears to be just a bit narrower on the slow side than previously. In addition, you get caller*id on your television, you can watch TV on the tablet computer and smart phone, use your smart phone as a remote control, manage your voice messages online.
I am sure some people felt sad when they had to give up cranking the magneto generator, and talk to the operator when making a phone call, but that too was perceived by the vast majority of users as progress.
But isn't that precisely what we do in this hobby? Collect obsolete telephone equipment? And some of us actually try to use it and make modifications the engineers never imagined? What's so wrong about wanting Verizon to keep their stated promise to deliver, "existing voice service, only provided over fiber instead of copper... Any devices that rely on your current voice service...will continue to work in the same way as they did over copper"? And not get baited and switched to a digital service where none of the above will work?
(Now if I can figure out how to get Rotatone to work in my A1 with the 2GB dial all will be well with my world...but my rotary Princess is a lost cause unless the bell is removed to make room for the module.)
Quote from: mariepr on April 23, 2017, 09:49:53 PM
But isn't that precisely what we do in this hobby? Collect obsolete telephone equipment?
But that does not mean time should stand still around the collecting hobby. Do you want to hold the world hostage with obsolete technology? I would say most collectors never use even 1% of all phones they hoard. We collect magneto phones, local battery phones, CBS-LBS phones, and many other types that are inoperable with even the network 30 or 40 years ago.
Quote
And some of us actually try to use it and make modifications the engineers never imagined? What's so wrong about wanting Verizon to keep their stated promise to deliver, "existing voice service, only provided over fiber instead of copper...
But they do exactly that. They provide a telephone service that still is virtually identical in function to POTS from your perspective. It's even amazing that FiOS still supports pulse dialing, the reason for that is archaic, and may only rest with the obsolete legal infrastructure at the FCC for incumbent carriers, but perhaps it is just a curtesy grounded in the incumbent history of a telephone company. I don't know the details of rulings for that aspect either. Cable operators don't universally support it, and other Internet telephony service providers (ITSPs) don't even think about it.
Virtual all short- and long-haul transmission has already been replaced with fiber, that started 30 years ago. Now fiber is moving another step closer to the home.
Quote
Any devices that rely on your current voice service...will continue to work in the same way as they did over copper"? And not get baited and switched to a digital service where none of the above will work?
What is digital voice? Voice has been digital since 1965 with the first ESS. Virtually all short- and long-haul transmission has been already replaced by fiber, starting 30 years ago. It's all digital. I don't how many miles of free wire analog transmission (not local loops) still remains, probably only in some rural, remote, and desert areas.
baited and switched to a digital service ? Why this negative and poorly informed accusation ? Fiber replacement of copper wire means exactly what it sounds like. Is FiOS Voice or cable company voice, or VoIP in general not well documented ? For someone interested in telephony and collecting of equipment it should not be so hard to understand what this means.
The TV industry made this a lot less painful, they set a date to turn off analog transmission, and now five years or so later, one can't even buy an analog television set anymore. I hear no one complaining. And television quality has never been better.
Quote
(Now if I can figure out how to get Rotatone to work in my A1 with the 2GB dial all will be well with my world...but my rotary Princess is a lost cause unless the bell is removed to make room for the module.)
Buy yourself an old Panasonic PBX for $30 and you have your own 1980s-style local telephone network and have to convert no phones at all.
Well that is certainly disappointing. I'm now being mocked as a Luddite for simply wanting my needs met. The more research I do to find out what my options are - as the copper CO cable is going to die sooner rather than later - the more I'm told here "can use two companies", "you're confusing everything", and now I'm "stuck in the past".
My understanding is that my voice service is supposed to be converted from copper to fiber, not FiOS. FiOS is a set of services that run on top of fiber, but not all services on fiber are FiOS. Since Verizon's advertising doesn't distinguish between FiOS and fiber, this confuses many people.
Verizon uses fiber optics to deliver two very different phone services. Am I wrong on this? One is the government regulated, tariffed service know as "standard phone service," or POTS (plain old telephone service). It has all the same features (or lack of features) as a copper phone line. Pricing is the same as any other copper line. The only difference is potentially better quality due to the use of fiber and the need for power and a battery on the local premises. The other is FiOS Digital Voice (or "FDV"), an unregulated, VoIP based service. It has many more features than POTs. It's the former that I want, not the later.
I never expected to be put on the defense just for wanting Verizon to do what they are claiming they will do - maintain my traditional phone service just over fiber instead of copper. Now that I've yet again stated - but apparently unsuccessfully - where I stand on this issue can this topic now be closed? I'm really very, very sorry that I start it as I lose more credibility with each post.
I believe you are referring to the difference between Freedom Essential Voice (?) and FiOS Digital Voice. The former was (still is?) the replacement of copper telephone service with fiber service, the latter is the voice portion that is typically provides as a component of their triple-play service. The difference between them is their relation to tariffed services and regulation, and the resulting difference in marketing. The Essential Voice is tariffed just like POTS, I believe, while FiOS Digital Voice is the less regulated service comparable to some cable offerings, which is cheaper because it does not have pay for E911 services and other requirements, I believe.
But both use the same voice technology. They operate over the same fiber, and are both equally based on the evolving versions of Passive Optical Network (PON) technology.
Naturally, they use different marketing strategies, and the use of the FiOS mark seems to be restricted to the less-regulated service. I don't know whether one can mix the two services on an order, that is something to ask the company. Frankly, I don't see why one would want to separate them. E911 is available either way.
What I objected to in your statements was the attitude that they are deceiving you somehow. Surely, it is a bit difficult at times to see through all the advertising and hype. But all providers are competing in the same manner more or less, and it seems to benefit them in general to confuse the customer.
The saga continues. Today there was a robocall from Verizon which told me to make an appointment for fiber migration by May 30th. I had asked my building superintendent where do we stand on the FIOS availibility? (He should know as he has to let the workers in, what work they are doing, and where.) He told me it's already installed! Called Verizon - my building is still showing up as not "eligible" and therefore the order cannot be placed.
Long story short, Verizon is supposed to "refer" the problem and get back to me next week. And you wonder why I'm skeptical on how they're handling this? The cable company has an even worse reputation, especially when it comes to no-show installer appointments.
Rather than write an ongoing drama, I decided to wait until the copper to fiber migration was finished and done. In my case it was phone and internet, no TV. The installation was done today and so far, it looks OK. Surprisingly my A1 and Princess rotaries dial out but the Rotatone phone - working perfectly on POTS - doesn't break dial tone. The fiber is also putting out enough ringer current to ring the 302 base, Princess, and wood auxiliary. Tomorrow might be a different story.
I've really appreciated the suggestions from those who offered specific solutions for how to keep rotary service after the death of copper POTS. I didn't appreciate having comparisons made to the Luddite who wanted to maintain manual as the phone company switched to dial. Key difference: manual to rotary conversion didn't cost subscribers a nickel. However copper to fiber cost some of us plenty.
The local phone company then took care of everything by changing out to dial phones (they were all leased then) and even held educational seminars in local schools. (Several of these films are now on youtube.) By contrast Verizon - supposedly a communication company - is doing a very poor job in communicating what happens and needs to be ready for a fiber conversion. The cost to me for an electrician and structured media is well over $1000 plus my labor and work to figure out how connect my existing wiring 25ft away and past a structural beam. For those of you who might ask, "I don't see how or why this could possibly be so much money and work" of course you don't see it. You live in a house where fiber can be brought in through a basement or utility room. It's not being run right at your apartment front living room door.
The only way to avoid wiring an apartment is to have only cell phones, broadcast TV, and no internet or perhaps just a wireless hotspot. It's either run Cat5e for the phone company or coax for the cable company.
As the old saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words. So below I'll illustrate what it took to bring DSL internet over copper and what it now takes to bring phone and internet over fiber. Please note also the size of the DSL router and Fios router relative to a dollar bill.
Who punched down the 4 pair cable (left side of the dollar bill) onto the 110 IDC connectors? They either didn't have/use the proper tool or didn't know how to work it. That means they could have been punched in with a screwdriver or something similar and ultimately the connections will likely fail.
Terry
Me. With a 110 punch.
When one is used to working in 1930 adjustment to an eighty year leap in technology takes some time and practice.
Aren't you glad that you asked?
Marie, please take the blade out of your 110 punch tool and re-insert it with the cutting side out, if you can, and use the cutting blade part to the left and punch those wires down again so the excess wire is trimmed off. You'll be glad you did. Most punchdown tools have a two-ended punch that twist-locks into the handgrip. I'm hoping that's what you have. You can also adjust the force of the punch high and low to get more oomph out of it.
I'm glad you got things going and that it works with your existing rotary phones. That's very good news. I am also someone who uses my phone collection because they are vastly superior to anything made today, and most of them date to the 1950s and 60s. I'm lucky to have an independent telco provider that isn't trying to yank out the copper--yet. They also provide very good cable TV and internet, so I am trice blessed.
Thanks but my tool is just a punch - no cutter. I do however use a pair of snippers to cut the ends. Since I don't intend to get into this business I didn't care to invest in expensive tools or specialized testing equipment. There is no reason to resort to using screwdriver as Leviton does provide a small plastic punch along with their boards. There seems to be a need to get a "feel" for the right amount of pressure. Too little and the insulation doesn't pierce. Too much and one can break something especially on the ends for the white/blue and solid brown wires.
Matching wire gauge is critical. Use something finer than what the board was designed for and the insulation isn't pierced. The Verizon tech brings one of those plastic spade/modular boxes. In general the old phone wiring goes on the spades, modular plug into the ONT. The wire in that modular cord however is too thin to get punched into the data board as the telephone distribution part was designed for Cat3 wire or better. Thus he had to recycle my cat3 piece that was attached to one of those spade terminal -to modular plugs. (I have often found that some of the cheap modular/modular cords not only have just two wires, but also that the wires are of the tinsel type.)
The lack of specialized test equipment meant that the only way to know if the new cabling was working was to hook up my old DSL modem to it. I left plenty of excess cable there as I didn't know exactly how the new equipment was to be placed in the media cabinet. I might try to more the phone/data board to the upper right side of the cabinet and do a more permanent punch down without all that excess cable. Too much cable is an easily solved problem.
Quote from: mariepr on July 27, 2017, 07:34:53 PM
Matching wire gauge is critical. Use something finer than what the board was designed for and the insulation isn't pierced. The Verizon tech brings one of those plastic spade/modular boxes. In general the old phone wiring goes on the spades, modular plug into the ONT. The wire in that modular cord however is too thin to get punched into the data board as the telephone distribution part was designed for Cat3 wire or better. Thus he had to recycle my cat3 piece that was attached to one of those spade terminal -to modular plugs. (I have often found that some of the cheap modular/modular cords not only have just two wires, but also that the wires are of the tinsel type.)
Most modular cords are either 28AWG stranded or tinsel, neither of which can be successfully punched down into 110 terminals which are intended for 24AWG solid wire (only). Since the gap in a 110 terminal is fixed (unlike a 66 terminal), there is no tolerance for different wire sizes.
The modular plugs installed on stranded or tinsel cords are also intended only for this type of conductor, having 2 contact points in a row which pierce the conductor insulation when the plug is crimped. The don't work reliably on solid conductor wire of any gauge because the conductor does not yield to the pressure of the contact points when the plug is crimped.
However modular plugs intended for use on solid wire
do exist. Instead of two in-line contact points they have 3 points with the center point offset so that the two end points straddle one side of a solid conductor while the center one straddles the other side without deforming or penetrating the strands the way contacts in stranded/tinsel wire plugs do. The plugs sold under the Ideal name at places like Lowes and Home Depot are usually for solid wire. Careful inspection is the only way to be sure. Package marking is not always reliable. IME it often does not specify and solid wire plugs do not work reliably on stranded or tinsel wire because it flexes too easily, rather than getting wedged between the alternating contact points.
So the best way to connect a modular-jack equipped equipment such as an ONT to 110 terminals would be to make up a short length of 24AWG solid conductor
inside wire with a plug on one end and bare leads on the other. Of course this requires having a 6-position modular plug crimping tool.
AT&T, Hubbell and others also made "field installable plugs" intended to be assembled to solid conductor IW without any special tools but I don't know of any predictable source of these in small quantities.
The next best alternative is to install a modular jack near the 110 terminals, cross-connected with solid conductor IW to the 110 incoming line feed point, and use a double ended modular cord to patch the line from the ONT to the jack.
Yes, it has been quite an education. Somebody who doesn't have the resources available to me would have had to hire a tech worker to do all of their home wiring, not just to do the 110V AC work. I have a relative whose installation in a house with a basement was simple. Fiber was run through the exterior wall via the clothes drier vent - no additional wall penetration. For internet they just set the router for wireless, which generally works fine unless the house is constructed like a bomb bunker. Wifi capability is now common but that was not the case when DSL was first introduced.
In my experience wired internet is faster and more secure so I prefer to turn off wifi transmission and only turn it on when I need it. Wifi in an apartment can also be iffy depending on the floor plan and density of the walls - like passing through a cinder block elevator shaft.
Fortunately I had spade to male RJ11 adapters as shown below. They are available from Old Phone Shop ($10, screw on cover) or Old Phone Works ($3, friction cover). I already had one with green/red wires from a Cat3 cable on it from my trial hookup, and the Verizon tech used this to connect my voice distribution to the ONT RJ11 female.
Since many buildings in New York have old copper spiders, Verizon uses one of those plastic boxes with spades and use the that to plug into the ONT.
One thing that does not help is that the terms "fiber" and "Fios" are used interchangeably. Transition from copper to fiber is voice telephone service. Fios digital voice is an entirely different thing that includes integration with a PC and TV.
They really, really want a customer to subscribe to TV service as that is more revenue: equipment rental and channel packages. The installers asked me at least twice if I was sure that I didn't want TV. After all this trouble to run Cat3 and Cat5e I'm sure not going to run coax just in case I might want a TV.
Oh okay, no problem then. I have seen *"installers"* who didn't have 110 or BIX tools proudly proclaim " no problem, a screw driver works just fine". I call these guys installers as opposed to repairmen because they can usually get it working initially but they are never involved in the tricky repairs where the repairman has no idea who did what and with what (incorrect) tool.
Terry
Quote from: mariepr on July 27, 2017, 12:51:04 AM
Me. With a 110 punch.
When one is used to working in 1930 adjustment to an eighty year leap in technology takes some time and practice.
Aren't you glad that you asked?
Hey folks.
Below is a scan of the letter officially announcing the 'retirement' of copper by Verizon.
And so it goes.
Stan S.
Welcome to the "club". If it follows the same time line as it did for me by October you will get a notice to switch by November, and that will follow with a notice that your service will be suspended in you don't set up a conversion appointment. My letter was dated February 2017 with retirement by the same month next year. Last week my building super told me that all of the apartments that still had copper phone service got suspended. As I outlined in detail in my July 27th post, fiber conversion is much more convoluted for an apartment compared to a house. The whole project cost me about $1K by the time the electrical work, structured media components and hardware was purchased - plus my time and work.
For a relative who lives in a house, the process was much simpler. The fiber was run from the outside along a clothes dryer vent. The ONT was mounted on a basement wall, and internet was set up via a wireless router.
The voice service that I now have is "Verizon Freedom Essentials" which (so far) supports rotary dialing and electro-mechanical ringers. Fios digital voice doesn't and it is an entirely different service that integrates with TV.
Marie
Perfect timing. I was going to ask you what the official name for just the phone service was and if it supports rotary dialing. I have no interest in the Fios package. My TV service is handled by Spectrum. I have a thing about putting all my eggs in one basket.
My Internet service is currently DSL riding on the pots line. That's all I want from Verizon. Exactly what I've got now only fiber.
There's one spot in the apartment that has AC power, a phone line and is near the front door where the fiber will be brought in. It's in an unused kitchen cabinet. They can put as much of there fiber junk in it as they want. Whatever room is left will be filled with backup battery power and chargers. Don't think I want to depend on a few 'D' batteries to keep me 'on the air'.
After the current round of storms hits Florida I wonder has many fiber customers will have phone service after the first day.
'Retirement of copper'
Dear valued customer.
No negotiation.
No discussion.
No excuses.
Their way or the highway.
Spectrum is looking better and better!
See scan below.
Stan S.
Since I never had Spectrum for TV or voice I cannot vouch for whether or not it has rotary support. One key difference however is that cable doesn't need a 110VAC outlet but phone company fiber does. At least you have a cabinet to hide all that stuff.
I had to connect my ONT to the old copper distribution spider in a back linen closet about 40ft away. Below are two examples of hollow moulding available at home improvements stores. They're listed under electrical "channel raceways" and not building trim. I found the quarter round version a real help for the horizontal run. Once painted it looks like standard quarter round moulding.
Like you I had DSL over POTS which suited my needs. Got just the 50MB Fios and they tried to upsell me to 100MB with "only $10 more per month". "Only" tends to creep up in price.
Marie et al.
Well, after 2 holes and 10 feet of fiber the job was done. I figured I'd goof on the guy for a while and played dumb. Actually that's not hard for me to do.
Anyway, he saw a refrigerator magnet of a wood wall phone and commented that his wife bought a full size reproduction of one. I figured it was a good time to show him where I wanted the router, so I walked him into my phone room. He stopped dead in his tracks and his jaw dropped. From that point on we got along just fine. As things go today, he's an old timer. He's only got 7 more years until retirement. He actually remembered rotary dialing and party lines.
He was able to answer a legal question for me. I was under the impression that Verizon had the right to install fiber in any building they previously had copper. Nope! In fact most of the contacts (such as with Spectrum) explicitly bar any other cable or telephone company from providing service. The bottom line is if the building you live in signs an exclusive contract with any other telephone service provider except Verizon, on the cut off date if you haven't bought phone service from the other company Verizon will disconnect the entire building. Legally the only service Verizon MUST continue to provide the building is 911.
I got a kick out of how they find your 'line' with fiber. In the good old days it would have been with a buzzer and a butt set. Today it's a tiny flashing led light source that gets connected to one end of the fiber. The intensity of the flashing red light at the other end of this super thin fiber is amazing.
For those who care. Fios DOES support rotary dialing.
Ain't technology GREAT!
Walk toward the light (fiber).
Stan S.
Every cloud has a silver lining.
My grandson just came home from serving in the U.S. Army earlier this year. Looking for employment he finally landed a job making nearly double most people I know, at Corning...manufacturing fiber optic cable. They gave him preference because he is a veteran.
Benny