wiring 181427(425E) network to 127F ringer to 202 4H phone

[jludtxs]

I have a 202 phone w/4H dial and a 127F ringer box. I bought a 181427 network to add to the box but the diagram is not exactly like the network and do not want to ruin anything. The picture of the network alone shows the letters.  The fist ting I noticed is the diagram says to jump the connections C to L2. The diagram has the next to each other but the network has them at opposite sides. There is also 2- L1 connections as well as everything on that side. I could use some advice on how to wire these together.  I used a dremel tool to get the nickle plate off but have not polished the bells yet. Were the only differences in the 127 bell boxes the size bells?

[unbeldi]

ok.   So you have a D-type handset mounting, and as you said a 127 is just a ringer box.  The 127F should have had ONLY a ringer installed, a high impedance ringer no. 38BG.  To make a complete 202 telephone you need an anti-sidetone induction coil (101A or No.146) and two condensers. One condenser for the ringing circuit and one in the audio network.

What is this 181427 network you got?  Can you post a picture? I don't recognize the number, but if I had to guess I would say it may be an early Stromberg-Carlson network, although they seem to start at no. 200000 or so.

What are your goals here? To make something work and have some fun, to restore to old glamor and be authentic or?

The only reason a 202 type telephone may have had a 127 ringer box installed, is when an extension ringer was needed. It would be much better to save the effort of retrofitting this box with the components, and instead get the right subset that has everything in it. You can buy those for $40-$60 sometimes even better if you're lucky.

The differencesin the various 127 models were the type of ringer installed. They varied in impedance, and the 127A also had a condenser for use on bridged ringing selective circuits.

[jludtxs]

Thanks, here are the rest of the pictures. I must have done something wrong the first time.  I got the network from Phonco who said this is what they use in these boxes. I'm surprised I didn't see them listed as a source. Their prices were very competitive.  For my end result, I want to be able to use the phone every day. I tried to keep it original where I can but I understand they were frankenphones anyway swapping parts for maintenance. I bought 4 of the 202's. One has a ringer box already. One I am adding brass parts to dress up. I got a brass finger wheel and handset rings. I also got a couple medallions for the dial center. Phonco told me the handset bands and medallions were for the later reproductions. After I learn more, I will clean the ones that need it. I am curious why some of the phones have silver finger stops and some have brass? I like the sound of the wood bell box so I would like to have this one used. I thought about refinishing the box but the inside looks the same so I guess it must have come this way. I haven't been able to find a western electric label or sticker that is 2 1/4" so could this have been a northern electric?

[unbeldi]

What you have is a 425E type network. This is an equivalent to all the networks found in Western Electric 500-type sets, and in the 685A subset.
Don't worry too much about the physical layout on the board, what is important are the terminal designations printed on the circuit board.  The other major manufacturers (AE, SC, Kellogg) had very similar network that only varied in the component layout.  The terminal designations are standard.

I believe there are already threads on this forum to wire this.  Typically you'll be advised to use a 5-conductor mounting cord between the network and the telephone set and that would be ideal, as there is no old wiring to be preserved in your handset mounting (D1).  Do you have a cord yet that you will be using?  The black textile cord (red, white, and blue) is probably the handset cord.  I can't easily see what comes out of the other cord.

Your ringer wires connect to L1 and A, and K connects to L2.   L1 and L2 are your telephone line connections.  This is all for the ringer.
Ok, I see that is the same as on your diagram sheet.  Good.  Your drawings are probably correct.


Here is a thread that discusses wiring a 202 with a 685-type subset.  Basically this is what you are attempting.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11465.0
There are diagrams referenced that should work just fine.

[jludtxs]

I posted the wrong phone, sorry, I have 4. I put the right picture up.  The line wire is 4 wire- yellow, green red black.  It is cut off short.  The handset cord is red black and white.  I have plenty of 4 conductor wire but I guess you are saying that I need different wire.  I haven't seen 5 conductor wire for sale, can you recommend a source or is there an easy way to use 4 wires that won't damage the phone or ringer?  It looks like I have to do some studying on which color wires are for what purpose.  That might make it make more sense to me.

[unbeldi]

I drew up a colored wiring diagram for you.
This is a modified drawing from BSP Section 502-320-414 Issue 1. You can fetch the original here.

The second image is the circuit of the standard Western Electric 425E network for reference.

Yes, the preferred way to wire a 202 that has no original cords from the 30s or 40s to be preserved is to use a 5-conductor mounting cord with a 425-type network. This is how WECo refurbished old 202 or 211 sets into the 1960s or even later.

When using a 684-type subscriber set only a 4-conductor cord is used, for electrical reasons.

However, there is a way to wire the 202 and 211 sets with a 4-wire cord and a 425-type network, but the BSP-purity preachers won't permit such doings. It works entirely satisfactorily though, but that would be a subject of another post.

Looking at your new picture of the telephone insides, it seems to me you have a nice brown-cloth mounting cord with four conductors.  I would hate to replace that, but how short is it? Getting new spade ends crimped onto the rubber wires isn't trivial, requires the right tool.

[jludtxs]

There is about 4ft of cloth wire but only 2 wires come out and are in bad condition and flaky. I am not sure how far in might be good wire. I could work with this length, it is still do-able, I would have gone a little longer but thought I should replace the wire for safety. I can reconsider that. I don't mind buying the crimp tool, I have tons of spades to practice on.  Here is a pick of the end.

[unbeldi]

That doesn't look too encouraging.  The rubber insulation is gone and the tinsel is exposed.  I know these can be used sometimes but crimping anything onto these is not advisable. I have fixed some like this by stretching out the tinsel and soldering it, and then reinforcing the wire with shrink tubing, but you are going to have to move the cord fastener  to expose  a few inches of the missing ends.   Your judgement of course.

Here is a circuit diagram that corresponds to the wiring diagram earlier.  The functionality is much easier to see this way. This diagram omits the ringer as that is very simple and does not effect the handset mounting.  The blue wire is the fifth conductor in the cord that is needed additionally when converting a standard (old-time) 202.  This modifies a standard set just slightly.

You can try your set without adding this blue conductor.  Just leave the set in a standard configuration.  In terms of the diagram this means the BK and BK* points are directly connected.  The only drawback of this is that one half of the primary winding in the induction coil is not used. It results in just slightly elevated volume which sometimes may be quite useful with these old telephones.

[jludtxs]

I checked the brown cord and the red is crunchy all to about 1 inch from the phone.  ok.. I hate being this stupid and risking being laughed off the forum, I posted a pic of my small progress.  let me know if I am going in the right direction.  What are the cone and half capsule figures?  Where the red branches off, do I run another red from the network?  I have the black wire where it looks right. the letter is mostly covered but I can see all the others and there are no other B connections.  I am assuming hs1 and hs2 are handset1 and handset2 and those would follow the path in the phone for the red and black handset wires. I am using some jewelry crimpers for now, Once I get everything where it belongs, I will check continuity.  I did notice inside the phone has the black line wire going first to the dial and then to the line switch. Does that matter as long as they are all connected?

[unbeldi]

I checked the brown cord and the red is crunchy all to about 1 inch from the phone.  ok.. I hate being this stupid and risking being laughed off the forum, I posted a pic of my small progress.  let me know if I am going in the right direction.  What are the cone and half capsule figures?

I think you are asking about the transmitter (large half circle almost) and the receiver (looks like a loud speaker).  Sorry I should have labeled things more.  These are in the handset and connected to the telephone with a 3-conductor cord, red, white, and black. The two red connections (from receiver and transmitter) are made inside the handset.

Where the red branches off, do I run another red from the network?  I have the black wire where it looks right. the letter is mostly covered but I can see all the others and there are no other B connections.  I am assuming hs1 and hs2 are handset1 and handset2

HS1 and HS2 are the Hook Switches contained in the contact pileup in the housing.

and those would follow the path in the phone for the red and black handset wires. I am using some jewelry crimpers for now, Once I get everything where it belongs, I will check continuity.  I did notice inside the phone has the black line wire going first to the dial and then to the line switch. Does that matter as long as they are all connected?

That's ok.  The actual sequence of connections of metallic conductors is not important.  This is where circuit diagrams differ from wiring diagrams,  in practice it is often more convenient or cheaper to connect things slightly differently, but it complicates understanding of the circuit.

[jludtxs]

Ok I think I have it. sorry for the wait, my internet was offline last night.  This is just a short hookup that will be replaced to get the connections right.  The network will be in the bell box. CONNECTIONS ON NETWORK- RR-L1 green jumper,  L1- green wire to bell,  G- green line wire to GN screw in phone,  A- red wire to bell,  L2- yellow wire to Y screw in phone,  R- red line wire to the last dial screw on right which another red wire jumps to handset,  B- black line wire to BK screw in phone which another black wire jumps to 1st dial screw from the left.  INSIDE PHONE ONLY- W screw on hook switch to 3rd dial screw,  The second dial screw is black wire to handset,  Screw alone on opposite side of points is white to handset.

I am assuming that from the network I will match R/G/B/L1 to the wall. Do I have it? there are some pics of the finish

[unbeldi]

no rush or hurry....
It's easiest for you to check whether it's correct.   Does it work? that's the first question that comes to mind.

I am assuming that from the network I will match R/G/B/L1 to the wall

The line is just green and red to L1 and L2.  The two center pins of an RJ11 wall jack.  Don't follow your description in this quote.

For the rest, I'd have to really sit down and analyze the pics in detail.

[poplar1]

B- black line wire to BK screw in phone which another black wire jumps to 1st dial screw from the left. 

Black wire from the network needs to be moved from BK terminal on switch to BK on dial.

[jludtxs]

ok, I moved the red wire on network-A to L2 where it should have been. do the hook switches start at Y for 1, bk for 2? Do the dial-DS start at 1-W for the white wire by itself on one side of points and D2- dial-Y and continue to the right BK-ds3, BB-ds4, R-ds5?  I have a dial tone but it keeps the line open so I can't receive calls- says busy. If I dial, the dial tone stays on so I am not dialing out.  I moved the black wire from the HS to dial BK And also saw that I didn't have a green wire going from GN on the network to HS-BK.  nothing changed- still dial tone line stays open and not able to call in or out. I am wondering if I am counting the dial switches wrong? I did find a map that shows the dial letters but not numbers. Progress but slow. I think my tests on the phone line are disconnecting me from the internet but I just have to keep resetting everything in the computer.

[poplar1]

The terminals are marked on the hook switch and on the dial. Hook switch: Y BK W GN. Dial: W (at the top) then Y BK BB R. Notice also the red wires in the original photo: The red handset wire spade tip needs to be dressed such that it does not short out the BB terminal.

Did you move the solid copper black wire from the network inside the phone?