Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => Pay Station Telephones => Northern Electric/Northern Telecom Pay Phones => Topic started by: wds on January 15, 2013, 08:18:53 PM

Title: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: wds on January 15, 2013, 08:18:53 PM
Every once in a while I venture down to the furniture surplus store at my local university, where they sell off used furniture.  Ohio has this ridiculous law that forbids using used furniture in new buildings, so every time a department moves to a new facility, they sell off the old furniture.  Needless to say I've gotten some pretty good deals on stuff.  This time they had some interesting items for sale, including these pay telephones.  I was in a hurry, so I don't have much info on the phones, other than they were asking $200 each for them.  Does anyone know what these are, and are they worth the $200?
Title: Re: Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on January 15, 2013, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: wds on January 15, 2013, 08:18:53 PM
Every once in a while I venture down to the furniture surplus store at my local university, where they sell off used furniture.  Ohio has this ridiculous law that forbids using used furniture in new buildings, so every time a department moves to a new facility, they sell off the old furniture.  Needless to say I've gotten some pretty good deals on stuff.  This time they had some interesting items for sale, including these pay telephones.  I was in a hurry, so I don't have much info on the phones, other than they were asking $200 each for them.  Does anyone know what these are, and are they worth the $200?
These look to be Nortel Millenniums. I had to look at them twice, since they use an uncommon colour combination. I don't want to call them down, as they are great payphones, but not for a collector who wants to do anything other than display them on a wall. It would be hard to get $200 for them, as they would be hard to display, and impossible to convert for use.

Because of the Millenium's need to "call home" to a Millenium manager, you won't be able to get too much on this phone working, and it won't be able to be connected to a phone line, but it will make a great display piece.

The Millenium is a common site today in much of Canada and the U.S.

This is a so-called BOCOT/COCOT- like "Smart Phone", featuring a digital instruction display, adjustable volume, options accepting credit and calling cards, coins of 5, 10, 25ยข, and dollar. Originally developed by Northern Telecom (Nortel), and typical phones of the series carry the designation, NT5U411BA2011 R11(Just an example of the numbering from a Millenium shipping box I have). Loved by operating companies, and despised by phone phreaks (telephone hackers), the Millenium series are the most advanced payphones in the world.

The Millenium is the most secure payphone on the market and to keep it that way, information on the phone is very hard to find. Only details which are publicly available on the phone will be noted here. Millenium phones call daily to their "hive" and contain internal alarms to monitor activity on the phone. Dial tone heard when the handset is raised is computer generated, and the rate tables are contained within the phone and programmed and updated by the Millenium manager. These cannot be programmed locally. A scrolling advertising line on the phones may also be programmed via the Millenium Manager to show up to 20 advertisements on the display's second line. The Manager can provide constant checks of the phone right down to the number and denominations of coins in the box, credit card verification, self-diagnostics, logging of operational notes such as cleaning and delivery directory dates, and detailed call activity statistics which may be used for planning. Constant alarming of the phone is done, with reporting to the Manager number. Open the coin box, and the manager will be called.

The Millenium is available with or without a smart card reader or a multicard reader option allowing users to use magnetic stripe commercial credit cards, calling cards and smart cards / chip cards, and with an optional jack which allow users with portable computers to connect through the phone. The options are seemingly endless

BUT, they all depend upon a connection to the Millennium Manager, and all call home to their "hive".

Incidentally, if someone does purchase a Millennium for display which didn''t come with keys, you will have no choice but to drill out its locks. As these are high security Medeco locks, this is a truly major job. Medecos have angle cut tumblers, and keys can only be duplicated with the original key code, and only by Medeco approved locksmiths. These tumblers make it impossible to pick (I do know of one person who has picked one who has a video on YouTube). The lock itself has stainless bars through it to resist drilling attempts - be prepared to spend the better part of a day to drill each lock, and even then, I cannot guarantee success! Be prepared to abuse your drill and bits. Afterwards, drilling residue will have to be painstakingly removed from the interior surfaces and boards of the phone.  It took me a day and a half and about 6 titanium bits to drill my lock. Afterwards, the locks were replaced with new Medeco locks.

I have truly learned to appreciate the incredible security built into each and every Millennium by Nortel and QuorTech!

Dave
Title: Re: Payphones for sale
Post by: paul on January 15, 2013, 08:38:30 PM
Those are Nortel/QuorTech Milleniums, and they are dependent on being able to connect to a manager software to do anything but sit in a demo mode. They also need 110VAC to power up all their electronics. They're probably the "ultimate" payphone ever constructed, collectable for completists, I'd say. I've seen auctions go for under $100.
Title: Re: Payphones for sale
Post by: ESalter on January 15, 2013, 08:52:33 PM
You guys are sure they can't be hooked up and operated like a regular phone like WE singleslots can?  A friend of mine that works on these said they could.  Not trying to say anyone's wrong here, just pointing out a conflicting story and looking for confirmation one way or another so we know.

---Eric
Title: Re: Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on January 15, 2013, 08:54:00 PM
Quote from: paul on January 15, 2013, 08:38:30 PM
Those are Nortel/QuorTech Milleniums, and they are dependent on being able to connect to a manager software to do anything but sit in a demo mode. They also need 110VAC to power up all their electronics. They're probably the "ultimate" payphone ever constructed, collectable for completists, I'd say. I've seen auctions go for under $100.
One little correction to Paul's statement. Millenniums require 24 VDC at .5 amp from an external power supply. I use a 24 vdc 1 amp Motorola Ethernet supply with the POE end cut off, on mine.  Nortel/Quortech also made a card only desk version as shown below. This photo is followed by the power connections for a Millennium from its troubleshooting guide. Incorrect polarity won't damage the electronics, it simply won't boot up until polarity is correct. This board is highlighted in the interior photo of the open Millennium below. The desk version requires the same supply voltage:

Dave
Title: Re: Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on January 15, 2013, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: ESalter on January 15, 2013, 08:52:33 PM
You guys are sure they can't be hooked up and operated like a regular phone like WE singleslots can?  A friend of mine that works on these said they could.  Not trying to say anyone's wrong here, just pointing out a conflicting story and looking for confirmation one way or another so we know.

---Eric
1000% certain. In fact Stan Shreier and I had a conversation about them today and what a shame it is they can't be converted without gutting them. Your friend is absolutely wrong unless he has a secret no-one else knows. I have a wall Millennium and two desk millenniums and have had for several years, but the best one can get them to do without a Manager connection is display "out of service".

Not unless he has discovered some secret about them which can eliminate the calls to the manager. If he has, I'd sure love to hear from him. I'd love to be wrong, but I and many others have been looking for such a secret, even down to viewing the source code of the eproms.

There were a few Millenniums produced for display at industry shows which were produced with demo chips in them, which would allow them to work without a manager connection, but these are very rare. Nortel/Quortech won't even admit demo phones exist, such is the culture of secrecy surrounding Millenniums.

A manual for the Millennium may be downloaded from http://payphone411.com/manuals.html

This manual is 131 megabytes in size. The above site's downloads are a bit flaky - if the download stops, pause the download, then restart it. You may have to do it several times during the download. The manual is a version released by hackers some years ago, but beyond the cover page, is the original manual. Even if you don't own a Millennium, you will find it interesting, as it will give you an idea how truly complex Millenniums are.

Dave
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: ESalter on January 15, 2013, 09:55:01 PM
Thanks for the input Dave.  I'll prod him about this the next time I talk to him.  He told me the next time he gets a chance he'd show me how they work and how to hook them up, etc, etc.  I'm hoping he knows something, but I'm betting he's mistaken.  We will see...

---Eric
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on January 15, 2013, 09:59:51 PM
Quote from: ESalter on January 15, 2013, 09:55:01 PM
Thanks for the input Dave.  I'll prod him about this the next time I talk to him.  He told me the next time he gets a chance he'd show me how they work and how to hook them up, etc, etc.  I'm hoping he knows something, but I'm betting he's mistaken.  We will see...

---Eric

Hi Eric:

Well, I am hoping he does have a secret and that I am wrong. Collectors with them around the world would be indebted to him. I have always dreamed of being able to get mine working and having, "Welcome to the Telephone Museum of PEI" scrolling on its display instead of "out of service" :).

Dave
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: AE_Collector on January 15, 2013, 10:15:59 PM
I have always wondered if one could be downloaded into a "don't call home mode thus needing an initial download but then it would carry on until it was called by the Millenium manager OR until it was told by a service person (via some input or being opened up) in the field to call in.

Terry
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on January 15, 2013, 10:29:12 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on January 15, 2013, 10:15:59 PM
I have always wondered if one could be downloaded into a "don't call home mode thus needing an initial download but then it would carry on until it was called by the Millenium manager OR until it was told by a service person (via some input or being opened up) in the field to call in.

Terry
Yes, it would be nice if there was some undocumented command!

Dave
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: AE_Collector on January 15, 2013, 11:37:51 PM
The Protels were "the best" for having lots of keypad commands to do things. My favorite was the one to get it to tell you via the handset receiver how much money was in the cash box. If the criminals had found this command they could have saved themselves a lot of work by NOT breaking into phones that had $1.25 in them!

Terry
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on January 16, 2013, 12:35:54 AM
For the benefit of those who haven't seen a Millennium open before, here is a photo of mine taken back when I first got it... You can click on it to see it larger...

Shown below the open Millennium is a NE/Nortel Centurion which is sometimes confused with a Millennium. The Centurion is an earlier fortress style phone designed by NE, and which, like AE and WE single slots only required ring and tip to be connected, and the coin relay tied down so any coins inserted will fall beyond the escrow. Remove the brown plastic cover, and inside you will find a very strong orangy-red painted steel inner case. They are a completely different animal from the Millennium.

Dave
Title: Re: Payphones for sale
Post by: paul on January 16, 2013, 11:25:36 AM
Quote from: DavePEI on January 15, 2013, 08:54:00 PM
One little correction to Paul's statement. Millenniums require 24 VDC at .5 amp from an external power supply.
Most external power supplies require 110-120 AC to work.  ;D Anyway, the point was they're not just line-powered, or internal battery like the later COCOTS.
Title: Re: Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on January 16, 2013, 01:31:19 PM
Quote from: paul on January 16, 2013, 11:25:36 AM
Quote from: DavePEI on January 15, 2013, 08:54:00 PM
One little correction to Paul's statement. Millenniums require 24 VDC at .5 amp from an external power supply.
Most external power supplies require 110-120 AC to work.  ;D Anyway, the point was they're not just line-powered, or internal battery like the later COCOTS.
Hi Paul:

Yes, but my point is, if someone reads your message as it was written literally, and plugs 120 vac into the phone, it will detonate it! Literally :). And the way the phone is built, it would be possible to do so. So I wanted to make sure people understand it has to be run with a proper 24 vdc .5 amp power supply. Incidentally, the supply does need to provide 1/2 amp - with the VFD display and microprocessors, even a 1/2 amp supply runs warm, but that is what Nortel calls for in the manual. A lesser supply won't last.

Dave
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: twocvbloke on January 16, 2013, 01:54:17 PM
Here's a thought, sit a CD player next to it and play Robbie Williams' "Millennium" and see if it submits to the torture and opens itself for local programming... :D
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on January 16, 2013, 02:01:24 PM
Quote from: twocvbloke on January 16, 2013, 01:54:17 PM
Here's a thought, sit a CD player next to it and play Robbie Williams' "Millennium" and see if it submits to the torture and opens itself for local programming... :D
Just might work! Eric is going to check with his friend about it - he is pretty sure he has a solution to get these in service, so I am really hoping! I have been searching for years, and so have many others, so I am hoping Eric's friend can come through. Otherwise, I may have to resort to your method :) Actually, they make a nice display anyway with their blue displays, but, Oh, it would be so much nicer if we could make then really operate!

If anyone else has information which might help us in our quest to find a way to better demonstrate our Millenniums, we would be very glad to hear from you! Surely there must be a way, but we haven't discovered it yet. What most collectors would like to do is have it default to base rate only, local calls only and to be able to display it working. These are legitimately owned telephones.

Dave
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: twocvbloke on January 16, 2013, 02:18:06 PM
Quote from: DavePEI on January 16, 2013, 02:01:24 PMActually, they make a nice display anyway with their blue displays, but, Oh, it would be so much nicer if we could make then really operate!

Dave

Depending on the display design, you could actually rig something up and wire the display to a computer via serial or USB and run appropriate ads or messages on the display, as you can get cables to connect to such things (I'm guessing it's a VFD display, which is controlled in a similar manner to small LCDs), so wouldn't entirely be an "out of service" display item, at least, until you found a way to reprogram it... :)
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on January 16, 2013, 02:38:53 PM
Quote from: twocvbloke on January 16, 2013, 02:18:06 PM
Depending on the display design, you could actually rig something up and wire the display to a computer via serial or USB and run appropriate ads or messages on the display, as you can get cables to connect to such things (I'm guessing it's a VFD display, which is controlled in a similar manner to small LCDs), so wouldn't entirely be an "out of service" display item, at least, until you found a way to reprogram it... :)
Yes, it is a VFD display, but hardly worth the trouble :)

Dave
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on January 16, 2013, 08:10:51 PM
Quote from: wds on January 15, 2013, 08:18:53 PM
Every once in a while I venture down to the furniture surplus store at my local university, where they sell off used furniture.  Ohio has this ridiculous law that forbids using used furniture in new buildings, so every time a department moves to a new facility, they sell off the old furniture.  Needless to say I've gotten some pretty good deals on stuff.  This time they had some interesting items for sale, including these pay telephones.  I was in a hurry, so I don't have much info on the phones, other than they were asking $200 each for them.  Does anyone know what these are, and are they worth the $200?
All this discussion grew out of your message. My feeling is if we could make these phones more useful, that their value would increase. But right now, given their limitations for display, I wouldn't pay more than $100 for one, and recent auctions have brought approximately that on eBay. So, if I were you, I wouldn't pay more then $100 for one. They look to be in good condition, and it looks as though they all have their keys taped to the top.

But, if we can find a way to do anything other than display them, their value will increase. I thought I should mention this, as the topic kind of strayed off your original intent, and I am as guilty as anyone.

But it is all applicable to determining a value for them!

Dave
Title: Re: Payphones for sale
Post by: Dugan on May 21, 2013, 08:49:41 PM
Quote from: DavePEI on January 15, 2013, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: ESalter on January 15, 2013, 08:52:33 PM
You guys are sure they can't be hooked up and operated like a regular phone like WE singleslots can?  A friend of mine that works on these said they could.  Not trying to say anyone's wrong here, just pointing out a conflicting story and looking for confirmation one way or another so we know.

---Eric


There were a few Millenniums produced for display at industry shows which were produced with demo chips in them, which would allow them to work without a manager connection, but these are very rare. Nortel/Quortech won't even admit demo phones exist, such is the culture of secrecy surrounding Millenniums.



Dave

Last weekend I picked up a "Millennium" Payphone at a yard sale. It came in a custom made, extremely heavy duty, Quantum Scientific shipping case. The phone is marked with the numbers NT5U41BA220C R13 Demonstration Terminal. Very sadly, it did not come with keys. It even has a magnetic credit card with the words Demo Card handwritten on it. In the case there was also a Primax adapter with six pin female to male pass through plug. Pins 1 and 6 carry 16VAC, but the cord coming out of the phone has a regular 4 pin connector. Of course the phone does nothing with the inline connector or just plugged into a phone jack.



I am guessing I have a rare demo unit that is useless without keys.

Pete
Title: Re: Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on May 21, 2013, 09:05:56 PM
Without being able to open the phone, you are a bit stuck. Unless you are willing to take a bit of a chance. If there is only a four conductor line coming from the phone, there is a good chance ring and tip are connected to the red and green and the DC will feed through the yellow and black pair.

If you feel like taking a chance, try wiring your 16 volt lines to the yellow and black and see if the display will boot up. Note: The power supply must produce DC output. If it doesn't run, swap the plus and minus. The phone has protection circuitry which will protect against AC or incorrect polarity. It just won't boot up properly unless hooked up to a correct power source.

Now, the interior plug in the phone is four conductors and that is where normally the +/- power and the ring and tip would go. There is a very good chance yours is wired to use simply a four conductor cable.

I wish I could guarantee this - do it at your own risk - it could damage the phone if not correct.

Dave
Quote from: Dugan on May 21, 2013, 08:49:41 PM
Quote from: DavePEI on January 15, 2013, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: ESalter on January 15, 2013, 08:52:33 PM
You guys are sure they can't be hooked up and operated like a regular phone like WE singleslots can?  A friend of mine that works on these said they could.  Not trying to say anyone's wrong here, just pointing out a conflicting story and looking for confirmation one way or another so we know.

---Eric


There were a few Millenniums produced for display at industry shows which were produced with demo chips in them, which would allow them to work without a manager connection, but these are very rare. Nortel/Quortech won't even admit demo phones exist, such is the culture of secrecy surrounding Millenniums.



Dave

Last weekend I picked up a "Millennium" Payphone at a yard sale. It came in a custom made, extremely heavy duty, Quantum Scientific shipping case. The phone is marked with the numbers NT5U41BA220C R13 Demonstration Terminal. Very sadly, it did not come with keys. It even has a magnetic credit card with the words Demo Card handwritten on it. In the case there was also a Primax adapter with six pin female to male pass through plug. Pins 1 and 6 carry 16VAC, but the cord coming out of the phone has a regular 4 pin connector. Of course the phone does nothing with the inline connector or just plugged into a phone jack.



I am guessing I have a rare demo unit that is useless without keys.

Pete
Title: Re: Payphones for sale
Post by: Dugan on May 21, 2013, 11:13:51 PM
Quote from: DavePEI on May 21, 2013, 09:05:56 PM
Without being able to open the phone, you are a bit stuck. Unless you are willing to take a bit of a chance. If there is only a four conductor line coming from the phone, there is a good chance ring and tip are connected to the red and green and the AC will feed through the yellow and black pair.

If you feel like taking a chance, try wiring your 16 volt lines to the yellow and black and see if the display will boot up. Note: The power supply must produce DC output. If it doesn't run, swap the plus and minus. The phone has protection circuitry which will protect against AC or incorrect polarity. It just won't boot up properly unless hooked up to a correct power source.

Now, the interior plug in the phone is four conductors and that is where normally the power and the ring and tip would go. There is a very good chance yours is wired to use simply a four conductor cable.

I wish I could guarantee this - do it at your own risk - it could damage the phone if not correct.

Dave


I went back the next day to ask the guy I bought it from if he ever had the keys and he said he didn't. He got it in a lot of items at an auction. I gave it a try connecting the 16VAC on pins 1 and 4 and nothing seemed to happen. It is disappointing, but I got a very nice case and the phone for $80. I can live with that.  Thanks for the reply.

Pete
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: AE_Collector on May 22, 2013, 12:36:09 AM
They probably have the wrong adapter with it. As Dave says, likely the power should be on the 2nd pair to the phone. I think the proper power supply is 24VDC not 16VAC.

Terry
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on May 22, 2013, 05:31:07 AM
Quote from: AE_Collector on May 22, 2013, 12:36:09 AM
They probably have the wrong adapter with it. As Dave says, likely the power should be on the 2nd pair to the phone. I think the proper power supply is 24VDC not 16VAC.

Terry
Hi Terry:

Yes, that is what he discovered last night after I told him normally it would be 24 vdc in a PM. I hadn't noticed before that his supply was AC. With another supply, it booted up and he is going to play with it today. If it does what I have heard other demo versions do after going through the boot-up, it would ask him to pick up the receiver and either make a call or to insert their demo card.

Alas, his not having keys is a major problem as those Abloy locks aren't made for picking - or for drilling for that matter. You will no doubt remember the tale of my drilling out the upper lock in mine years ago now. All those stainless bars in the lock made for nearly impossible drilling! Not impossible, but hard on molybdenum drill bits and it will take a ton of time. Then a day to clean the filings off the circuit board and throughout the case. Took a full day to drill the top lock only of mine.

I was so glad I heard back from him last night that he had it booting. Congratulations, Pete!

Dave
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: ESalter on May 22, 2013, 10:14:57 AM
I spoke to a man just this weekend that has "broken into" a couple dozen Millennuims.  To drill the locks he used a drill press with a 4 fluted end-mill cutter in it.  He said it mangles the bit once it breaks through the outer case of the lock, so he used two of them.  A good one to bore through the case, then a used/bad one to chew up the lock mechanism.  He said not a single one of them took him more than 5 minutes to open.

---Eric
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on May 22, 2013, 12:19:35 PM
Hi All:

I got a call from Pete using his demo Millennium this morning. What a fortunate man he is to have found one of these! It sounds great! I knew one other who had a Demo version of the Millennium. These were made to demonstrate the phone at shows without setting up a manager account for them, and commonly come in cases similar tot he one his did. We assume they had special eeproms in them to duplicate the manager programming process.

Dave
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Dugan on May 22, 2013, 07:53:34 PM
Quote from: DavePEI on May 22, 2013, 12:19:35 PM
Hi All:

I got a call from Pete using his demo Millennium this morning. What a fortunate man he is to have found one of these! It sounds great! I knew one other who had a Demo version of the Millennium. These were made to demonstrate the phone at shows without setting up a manager account for them, and commonly come in cases similar tot he one his did. We assume they had special eeproms in them to duplicate the manager programming process.

Dave

Thanks Dave and others for your suggestions. I am posting a link to a video of the phone working. I might try to do a better job on a future video with better sound and a bit of editing. For now the phone resides where my computer is... our laundry room! How the laundry room ended up doubling as a place for my hobbies speaks volumes about my place in the order of things.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dapeco/sets/72157647442270736/

Thanks,

Pete
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on May 22, 2013, 08:21:52 PM
Hi Pete:

Looks good! Nice phone, and great video!

There are compounds with which you can remove the scuffing on the screen if you feel it is worthwhile (Novus #2).

Dave
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Dugan on May 22, 2013, 09:03:48 PM
Quote from: DavePEI on May 22, 2013, 08:21:52 PM
Hi Pete:

Looks good! Nice phone, and great video!

There are compounds with which you can remove the scuffing on the screen if you feel it is worthwhile.

Dave

I wouldn't mind polishing the screen a bit. The scuff isn't deep, but I hesitate to experiment and spoil the plastic. Leaving it alone might be the best idea. Otherwise the phone is in nice shape.

Pete
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: DavePEI on May 22, 2013, 09:11:17 PM
The stuff to use is Novus #2, the same stuff we use to polish plastic phones. It was formulated by Novus Auto Glass to polish plastic and remove scratches from the bezels on headlights. Just do it by hand - you can't make it any worse, and from the look of it, it wouldn't take a lot of polishing. Just apply with a soft cloth and buff.

Dave

Quote from: Dugan on May 22, 2013, 09:03:48 PM
Quote from: DavePEI on May 22, 2013, 08:21:52 PM
Hi Pete:

Looks good! Nice phone, and great video!

There are compounds with which you can remove the scuffing on the screen if you feel it is worthwhile.

Dave

I wouldn't mind polishing the screen a bit. The scuff isn't deep, but I hesitate to experiment and spoil the plastic. Leaving it alone might be the best idea. Otherwise the phone is in nice shape.

Here is another little video I did of a turntable I found in a small town radio store (new old stock). Forgive me for going of topic with this link, but I like it and thought someone else might too.

https://picasaweb.google.com/copeda/Mar32011?authuser=0&feat=directlink



Pete
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Dugan on May 22, 2013, 09:33:28 PM
I know the stuff. I just had my headlights done and they are like new. I'll look for that exact product. It sounds like handy stuff to have around.

Pete
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Dan F on May 21, 2017, 03:58:16 AM
I just picked up one of these. Mine doesn't have any locks. The coin validator is completely electronic. Any information would be helpful. Mine has no locks and looks like the card reader supports the newer cards with the chips. Are there any manuals for this phone?

-df

Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: poplar1 on May 21, 2017, 08:57:29 AM
Quote from: Dan F on May 21, 2017, 03:58:16 AM
I just picked up one of these. Mine doesn't have any locks. The coin validator is completely electronic. Any information would be helpful. Mine has no locks and looks like the card reader supports the newer cards with the chips. Are there any manuals for this phone?

-df



Dave provided a link to payphone411 for manuals in Reply #5.

http://payphone411.com/millenniummanuals.html

Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 11:58:31 AM
As I sit and read these post I see a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to smart payphones. A smart payphone is a downloadable device. 
Some smart payphones do have a default mode they will run in. All smart payphone require the download of a RATE FILE a rate file which determines how much a call cost from the location to the dialed number.
In order for the payphone to determine that it must use its programed telephone number location and match it up in a data base to the number called.

So the phone has to know each and every area code and exchange in the country at any given time.
So that means that the rate file in the phone in order to accomplish this must be loaded at the very least on a monthly basis.

These files are purchased files from a rate file provider.
It addition to that the payphone must know the areas that are 7-digit dialing and the areas that are 10-digit dialing.
In addition to the rate file a payphone must have a OPTIONS FILE which is a file that tells it the routing of the calls what carrier will be used for certain types of calls.
The next thing the payphone needs is a software version. There are many versions that correct problems with different types of Central Office conditions.
If you have not already figured this out then you may not be able to understand, every smart phone is a miniature central office. It must interact with other CO's in order to function.

For instance if a payphone somehow ends up on a line with 3 way calling then a option must be turned on to not allow a switch hook flash to be delivered to the CO more then once every 3 seconds.
If the payphone is on a coin line then there are a series of options to read the reverse battery as it occurs on the line in order to understand where it is in the setup of a telephone call.

There are options to detect a answer by way of reverse battery or instead a voice answer.
It also must understand ring no answer,busy and SIC tones. It also has the ability to dial out rotary or touch tone.
AT&T developed some of the first smartphones that were deployed as the 30 A private payphone,the DMC set and the Private payphone plus.

All this stuff along with Ernest, Elcotel, Protel and Intelicall also one of the first all required transformers in the beginning then many became  line powered. The reason the AT&T Eagle 1,2 and 3 went away was because it was not able to handle 10 digit local dialing in its rate file software.

So now we get to the Nortel Millennium (NM). When I was the operating manager at the public telephone department one of my tasks was to select what smart payphones we would use.
The NM was the pits as far as I was concerned ,it required constant interaction with a special  Nortel payphone switch to work.

The rates,options all the stuff were in the Nortel switch very little resided in the telephone. and every process had a charge had a cost that you paid to Nortel.

So guys here is the deal this is not a guessing game it is a fact. THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT,IT IS A KNOW AND UNDERSTOOD FACT.
A NM will not work unless it is in contact with a Nortel payphone switch. What you have in a NM is a car without a motor and it will not run. When I see comments like some guy says or I have been told by someone,the someone or the Guy is trying to sell you something. The phones won't work. If you want something that will work that looks just like the NM it is a Protel Ascension and its a better phone.

That said there were NM display  models carried by sales people that were taken to the various telephone companies and airports to demo the product.
These phones did function but had limited ability I had one demoed to me once a long time ago. I would say they are few and far between.

So to define it clearly a smart is a device that contains everything necessary to deliver a phone call at the proper rate anywhere with the proper dialing sequence.
A dumb set is a phone that functions solely on commands from the CO(central 0ffice).
A hybrid smart set is a phone that works off both the CO and the smarts such as a NM.

This is a science guys there are no if ands or buts, manuals mean nothing beyond understanding if you do not have the software. Dial pad commands are limited at best.

There were also on site PBX type devices like the ONMIPHONE coin pro that could manage dumb sets at a location  way of simulated CO commands. A advanced version of Stan's controller. 
Today I am the owner of a Inmate telephone switch that services 160 county jails in 10 states to 22,00 inmates by way of a customized VOIP switch. I also still maintain 250 payphones in correction institutions. The technology is astounding. But it is still RATE FILES and OPTION FILES in that sense nothing has changed.
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: martin on May 21, 2017, 12:20:09 PM
Quote from: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 11:58:31 AM
So guys here is the deal this is not a guessing game it is a fact. THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT,IT IS A KNOW AND UNDERSTOOD FACT.
A NM will not work unless it is in contact with a Nortel payphone switch.
I would like to object to this - sorry...

The Millennium does not really need a special Nortel switch. In fact, the only thing "special" that the Millennium needs is answer supervision (polarity reversal) upon answering. Even the 20$ Linksys PAPT2 can do that. (Of course the quality of those are horrible and not really fit for production use... But most of us, who want to run a Millennium are probably looking into home/museum-use). And even if the line/switch cannot do answer supervision, Quortech even sold an interfered answer supervision module (IAS) that takes care of that...

That being said: I mentioned it on another thread: There are at least 3 parties I know of, that are working on building a backend for the Millennium-phones, so collectors and museums can put them back into service without getting their hands on a demo-code ROM. As for the feasibility: I know it is possible to provision the phones without the Millennium Manager, because I've (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxKUJgCXAAAuiUK.jpg) done (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxKUKdsXcAIw7jc.jpg) it (http://i.imgur.com/wrbr93I.png) ;-) (Obligatory disclaimer, that this is not yet ready for public usage and public beta-testing will commence some time later this year).
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 01:52:49 PM
Answer supervision is still available on a cocot line today in some areas,so based on your statement the ordering of this line should allow this phone to work. But it does not.  Office supervision was used for two things on a payphone, on a smart set to detect a answer, on a dumb set to identify and collect or return a coin. You state they are building the back end to make it work. Back end is a broad term do you mean a CO based program to emulate the function of the Nortel system? Or a small compact unit to simulate the CO?
Below is the link to a Nortel in demo mode you hear  the dialing and the attempt of the phone with a data burst to talk to its data base. It fails and cannot complete the call.  First the switch did not answer the number dialed by the payphone second since the phone did not reach the switch it can't rate the call . It has no on board rate file.  The coin still returns as a result of a office supervision line which it would do on SIC tones which you can here.

The phone has no rating program without the Nortel switch contact,so it does not know what to charge and the call fails plus the switch or program number did not answer.  So if  this  back end would be answering the data stream with the proper credentials and then defining the rate based on the dialed number passed by data stream it would work.
But you would still have to have a office supervision line that reversed the battery on a answer,and or maybe collect return voltage I have no clue if the line produced that voltage or the transformer.
I believe the phone dialed the data base sent the data downloaded the info hung up and redialed the dialed number in very fast succession but I have no way of knowing that for sure without standing there with a butt set during the call.
I welcome anybody to challenge me if I am wrong I would love to know more about how they worked but I think I am close to the call process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUsqiUFiBTs

This link someone trying to get around the credentials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5_OZahsGE

https://www.hackcanada.com/canadian/payphones/millenium.txt
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: martin on May 21, 2017, 02:32:40 PM
Quote from: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 01:52:49 PM
Answer supervision is still available on a cocot line today in some areas,so based on your statement the ordering of this line should allow this phone to work. But it does not.  Office supervision was used for two things on a payphone, on a smart set to detect a answer, on a dumb set to identify and collect or return a coin. You state they are building the back end to make it work. Back end is a broad term do you mean a CO based program to emulate the function of the Nortel system? Or a small compact unit to simulate the CO?

Oh, okay... Seems like we are talking about the same/similiar things, but using different terms...

When I say "backend", I mean the computer-system that connects with its modem-pool to the network and provides the configuration for the phones. While Nortel/Quortech used a Tandem/HP Nonstop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NonStop_(server_computers)), I am using off-the-shelf computer-hardware with a 5$ USB-modem. I am not 100% sure anymore what the "Millennium Manager" was written in (I remember COBOL being in the mix) - I am using python.

So yes, you are right: just connecting the phone to a line with AS is not enough. But the data for the phones was not stored in the switching-hardware but rather in some data-center run by either Nortel/Quortech or (in a few select instances) directly at the Telco.

Quote from: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 01:52:49 PM
Below is the link to a Nortel in demo mode you hear  the dialing and the attempt of the phone with a data burst to talk to its data base. It fails and cannot complete the call.  First the switch did not answer the number dialed by the payphone second since the phone did not reach the switch it can't rate the call . It has no on board rate file.  The coin still returns as a result of a office supervision line which it would do on SIC tones which you can here.

Thanks for the video - I didn't know about that one yet :-)

I would like to correct you about the data-burst that you can hear, though: That data-burst is not from the Millennium but from the called party. While you can hear the DTMF-tones during dialing in the handset, the data-bursts are not played back to the user. The first call (starting at around 1:29) seems to be supervised as the coin gets collected and the 1 minute counter starts to count down...

The reason the card call failed is indeed not that there is no backend-connection... Yes, on a normal, in-service, device, the call would fail for that reason. On this demo-code-device however all creditcards are accepted (and just not billed in the end). The reason why it failed here the first few times was the orientation of the card (magstripe down instead of up). And then there is the issue, that the card-table in the demo-code has quite some restrictions on what kind of cards to accept. Depending on the build of the demo-code, there are two possibilities: Either any card with a magstripe gets accepted or the canned table is checked. Basically it's a table with the attributes "Starting PAN", "Ending PAN", and acceptable service-codes. So for the Google Wallet-card to work, it would need to have it's PAN overlap with the Visa, Mastercard or Amex-PANs and have the appropriate service-code on it.

(Funny story on the side: the demo-code builds that actually check for the PAN and service-code are so old, they don't take into account cards that have obligatory Online-verification... For that reason, during initial development and testing, I could only use my Amex-card on the demo-code builds).

Quote from: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 01:52:49 PMThe phone has no rating program without the Nortel switch contact,so it does not know what to charge and the call fails plus the switch or program number did not answer.  So if  this  back end would be answering the data stream with the proper credentials and then defining the rate based on the dialed number passed by data stream it would work.

The demo-code never calls the backend - all calls to the NCC are replaced by static answers in the EEPROM. So if a call goes through or not and how it is rated is (on demo-code devices) determined uniquely by the phone itself.

Quote from: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 01:52:49 PM
I believe the phone dialed the data base sent the data downloaded the info hung up and redialed the dialed number in very fast succession but I have no way of knowing that for sure without standing there with a butt set during the call.

Yes, that's exactly how it is happening (on non demo-units) :-)

Quote from: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 01:52:49 PM
This link someone trying to get around the credentials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5_OZahsGE
Yes - that is me - I did that video :)

That was very, very early in the process of writing my own backend... At the time, the only thing I did was answering the phones installation-request and request for the current time. Until here, nothing too fancy happening - there have been plenty of people who got to set the time on the phone correctly (It's like the "Hello World" of Millennium payphones ;-)).

Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 03:42:36 PM
Not sure how the NM processed credit cards but the Protel sets processed them by way of sending then to validation data bases real time as a phone call.The validation database dialed was determined by digits in the card number.   Once validated the call was allowed and then batch billed later in the day. As for writing the software that is out of my realm I do think that acquiring the source code to another payphone software may be a faster way to get there since there are basic elements to all of them that are the same. That source code is available.
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 09:25:34 PM
Might find this interesting
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 09:26:42 PM
more
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: martin on May 22, 2017, 04:12:51 AM
Quote from: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 09:25:34 PM
Might find this interesting
Indeed, I do :-)

I'll comment on that in the other thread :)
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Troy K on May 23, 2017, 05:28:30 PM
That Millennium with the keyboard is rather neat. Never seen one of those in person. Most of the payphones here in Western Canada are Telus Millenniums, though I've a seen a few Bell ones in downtown Victoria BC.
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: AE_Collector on May 23, 2017, 08:20:56 PM
Don't think I have seen the term Millenium Manager in this topic yet. It is the computer that the Millenium phones call daily (typically) to update any trouble codes, cash in the box and probably to check if there is any updated software files to download.

It us getting to be a long time ago now (1996-2003) when I worked on 120B's, Protels and Milleniums but I recall asking the guy who administered the Telus Millenium Manager if a phone could be programmed into a "StandAlone" mode and he said it was possible. Of course it needed to be set up and downloaded by the MM for the area it was installed in but could be instructed to not call in to the Millenium Manager on a regular basis. I was never involved with a phone set up that way but this is what I was told. Of course we had version 1.7, 1.9, 2.0 and 2.1 phones/chassis in use then and I am not certain if a particular version was required for this feature.

Someone mentioned the card reader and it being set up for chip cards. The blue bezzel card reader were just mag stripe readers and the yellow bezzel reader were mag strip / chip reader.

Terry

Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Troy K on May 23, 2017, 09:31:55 PM
One time when I used a Millennium I mistakenly thought the chip card reader could read the chips in credit cards, felt kind of stupid when I realized it was for smart calling cards. Interestingly enough, I don't think Telus even sells calling cards for the phones anymore, last time I used one was years ago now.

One question I do have, and it is silly.. I made my own information card for my phone, and as much as I like it, I'd love to get an authentic one (either Bell or Telus). Would anybody happen to have one they would be willing to part with. or know of a way I could obtain one?
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: martin on May 24, 2017, 05:54:53 AM
Quote from: Troy K on May 23, 2017, 09:31:55 PM
One time when I used a Millennium I mistakenly thought the chip card reader could read the chips in credit cards, felt kind of stupid when I realized it was for smart calling cards.

I can't say this with 100% certainty - but as far as I understood by looking at the card-table and screenshots of the "Telco Maximizer", the telco may also allow creditcard-ICs to be allowed for transactions... But I do have to agree, I have never seen usage of the creditcard-IC in the wild...
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Troy K on May 24, 2017, 12:52:22 PM
Quote from: martin on May 24, 2017, 05:54:53 AM
I can't say this with 100% certainty - but as far as I understood by looking at the card-table and screenshots of the "Telco Maximizer", the telco may also allow creditcard-ICs to be allowed for transactions... But I do have to agree, I have never seen usage of the creditcard-IC in the wild...

Never seen it either, and I've never used a smart calling card in one either. I don't think any of the telcos even sell them anymore. I do know Bell used to have these Quickchange cards years ago.
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Dominic_ContempraPhones on June 23, 2017, 06:23:34 AM
Quote from: Payphone installer on May 21, 2017, 01:52:49 PM
Answer supervision is still available on a cocot line today in some areas,so based on your statement the ordering of this line should allow this phone to work. But it does not.  Office supervision was used for two things on a payphone, on a smart set to detect a answer, on a dumb set to identify and collect or return a coin. You state they are building the back end to make it work. Back end is a broad term do you mean a CO based program to emulate the function of the Nortel system? Or a small compact unit to simulate the CO?
Below is the link to a Nortel in demo mode you hear  the dialing and the attempt of the phone with a data burst to talk to its data base. It fails and cannot complete the call.  First the switch did not answer the number dialed by the payphone second since the phone did not reach the switch it can't rate the call . It has no on board rate file.  The coin still returns as a result of a office supervision line which it would do on SIC tones which you can here.

The phone has no rating program without the Nortel switch contact,so it does not know what to charge and the call fails plus the switch or program number did not answer.  So if  this  back end would be answering the data stream with the proper credentials and then defining the rate based on the dialed number passed by data stream it would work.
But you would still have to have a office supervision line that reversed the battery on a answer,and or maybe collect return voltage I have no clue if the line produced that voltage or the transformer.
I believe the phone dialed the data base sent the data downloaded the info hung up and redialed the dialed number in very fast succession but I have no way of knowing that for sure without standing there with a butt set during the call.
I welcome anybody to challenge me if I am wrong I would love to know more about how they worked but I think I am close to the call process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUsqiUFiBTs

This link someone trying to get around the credentials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW5_OZahsGE

https://www.hackcanada.com/canadian/payphones/millenium.txt


You had to go into servord on dms-100.  For Centurions the reversal you're talking about was called RCD - reverse coin disposal.

Millennium uses an ordinary line with LRA - Line Reversal on Answer -- the polarity flips when ringback commences and then flips back to normal when the called party answers.  LRS - Line Reversal on Seizure was for PBXs.

On Millennium, once the reversal starts, the microphone is disabled.  DMS will not reverse on 0 minus, 0 plus, 911, 411, 611, etc. so if you put in a coin, you'll get it back.

Millennium didn't have to contact Millennium Manager on every call, just toll calls, and when its call detail records table reached a certain %, and every so often -- once a day they would call in to say, I'm still alive and my coin box is x or getting close to full.  Alarms would trigger a dial-in, if it could. If MM didn't hear from a phone for a while, it showed up on a report and a guy would be sent out.

It uses a Bell 212A modem.  I saw the schema but it's X.25 over dialup.  Doesn't matter, you just have to send the data down in Bell 212A at 1200 baud, but the structure and sequence to populate the local tables would be impossible to figure out without documentation.   Nortel Network Operations Control could call into the phone and provision it too.  You could put in a wildcard for free numbers and it was changed later on for 100 local tuples for toll ... a tuple was npa nxx.  A pretranslator was downloaded too along with a list of numbers on the PCP that would go through during a power outage.

I don't know how the download image was structured -- otherwise it should be fairly easy to provision.  Every card or toll call went to MM, but locals and coin and stored value cards did not contact MM, so it's not true that it needed MM to work.

These guys that are working on it can't possibly figure out what the download image format is unless they have a copy of one for a specific version.
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Troy K on June 24, 2017, 05:38:13 AM
From what I've read online, a telco in Ecuador made their own Millennium Manager by reverse engineering the phones themselves. It was the product of a thesis at a university there, it makes for an interesting read however it's all in Spanish.

This is also an interesting document, covering the MM database tables: https://github.com/muccc/millennium/blob/master/documentation/manager/A0xxxxxx_00_02.pdf
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Dominic_ContempraPhones on June 24, 2017, 12:53:13 PM
That's easy.  That's SQL/MX although Net Venue used Oracle 7.3.4 when 8i was out and they used SUN Sparc.  BNR did use a proprietary protocol over Bell 212A modulation, but I am skeptical that without documentation they were able to do what they claim.  I have the 212A and x.25 APIs, so were they able to determine the table download structure.  It could be as simple as comma delimited.

I did work at Nortel so I should be able to figure it out.  I did contact former BNR Calgary but they don't have it anymore.  It's essentially a file transfer and that's it.  MM call ins are disabled.  LRA is easy to get, and the dumb thing should work.
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Troy K on June 24, 2017, 07:06:15 PM
I've heard that demo firmware for these phones is out there somewhere. Though Nortel and Quortech would deny they ever existed.

It's really too bad Nortel went the way they did, they had some pretty cool innovative things.
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Kimball321 on June 24, 2017, 08:13:51 PM
Quote from: Troy K on June 24, 2017, 05:38:13 AM
From what I've read online, a telco in Ecuador made their own Millennium Manager by reverse engineering the phones themselves. It was the product of a thesis at a university there, it makes for an interesting read however it's all in Spanish.

This is also an interesting document, covering the MM database tables: https://github.com/muccc/millennium/blob/master/documentation/manager/A0xxxxxx_00_02.pdf

Did you find the thesis online, and if so do you have a link?
Title: Re: Millennium Payphones for sale
Post by: Troy K on June 24, 2017, 09:08:53 PM
Quote from: Kimball321 on June 24, 2017, 08:13:51 PM
Did you find the thesis online, and if so do you have a link?

Yep, here's the link: http://www.dspace.ups.edu.ec/handle/123456789/993

The download link is near the bottom. The file appears to be protected so you won't be able to copy the text to translate it easily, though some of the diagrams and such are in English.