Help needed to identify early Western Electric desk sets

[Adam]

Thanks to three pics I found here on this forum, my page about Presidential telephones on my website Manufacture Discontinued now includes pics of every analogue oval office desk phone from President Herbert Hoover, the first telephone in the oval office, through President George H.W. Bush.
http://www.manufacturediscontinued.com/exhibits/telephones/presidential-telephones-of-the-united-states.html

However, I'm not personally very knowledgeable about pre-302 Western Electric desk sets.  Could you guys please take a look at the above page and let me know if I've identified the phones in the first three photos correctly?  Any additional info you can give me which I could add to the page would be most appreciated!

Thanks!

[paul-f]

Dave:  Since we can't see how they're wired internally, purists would identify the first one as a B-mounting and the next two as D-mountings.

(We also can't tell which variety of B or D mounting, without seeing the tiny letters on the back of the cradle and inspecting the internal components.)

[Phonesrfun]

To Paul's point, a 102 is a cradle deskset of the B or D mount that is wired using a sidetone induction coil.  A 202 is a B or D mount wired internally using an antisidetone induction coil.

I believe, based on the dates of the B and D mount and the availability of antisidetone technology, the Bell System probably made a vast majority of B mounts in a 102 configuration, and a vast majority of the D mounts as 202.  

But, nonetheless, there are some purists out there on other listserves that will jump up and down all day long if a round base B mount is referred to as a 102 without describing the wiring, and the same goes for the elliptical based D mount and the reference to 202.

[NorthernMan]

Nice presidential phone display , i didn't see the sizzling red hot line phone to the Kremlin. Maybe it wasn't used very often and so was in the cupboard with the 80 year old scotch !

[Adam]

But, nonetheless, there are some purists out there on other listserves that will jump up and down all day long if a round base B mount is referred to as a 102 without describing the wiring, and the same goes for the elliptical based D mount and the reference to 202.

So, then, do my descriptions of President Hoover's phone as a 102 and President Roosevelt's phone as a 202 appear to be correct?  Can 102 and 202 be used generically that way?  And have I identified them correctly?

NorthernMan: Yes, I actually was surprised at this when I started doing research on the page.  A "hotline" phone appears in no picture that I could find.  I suppose the President was just connected to the hotline using the normal phone on his desk.

[Dennis Markham]

Dave, your web page is very nice.  It's neat that you found all those photos with the Presidents and their phones.  I don't think anyone is going to criticize you for calling a B1 bodied phone with an E1 handset a 102 when it may have been wired as a 202.  More than likely it was a side-tone set, wired as a 102.  I'd leave them as they are, with the B1 round bodied phone labeled a 102 and the D1, oval based phone as a 202.  If you were to caption them as B1 body and D1 body only a phone collector would know what you were talking about.  

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Phonesrfun]

At some point, reasonableness needs to overcome technicality.  I would leave it as is.

[paul-f]

So, then, do my descriptions of President Hoover's phone as a 102 and President Roosevelt's phone as a 202 appear to be correct?  Can 102 and 202 be used generically that way?  And have I identified them correctly?

Dave,  I won't be jumping up and down either way, but am an engineer and believe that it's important to use proper nomenclature wherever possible.  

The fact that 90%+ of the world does it differently doesn't make it right.

As knowledgable phone collectors, we should be leading the way toward enlightenment, using proper terminology wherever possible.  The clubs have mission statements that include preserving the history of the telecommunications industry.  

IMHO, historical accuracy is important and perpetuating misstatements demonstrates ignorance.

That said, it's not necessary to label your photos with arcane terms that are only meaningful to a purist.  Perhaps referring to them as "round base" or "oval base"  or simply "compact desk stand" or other generic term would be a reasonable compromise.  (Yes, I know the purists would say "elliptical base.")

Your site provides great added value to several collecting disciplines.  I enjoy the fruits of your efforts and am glad you started this thread to get informed opinions on the subject.

[Adam]

OK.  Thanks very much for the additional info and the kind words.  However, I confess I'm still a bit cornfuseled.

My problem is, besides wanting to be a telephone historian, I'm also a web master, and to make the description of the listing an interesting read, I need to say a little more than just "B mount".

So, for the first picture, how about:

"Western Electric B mount compact desk stand, probably a model 102"

and for the second pic:

"Western Electric D mount compact desk stand, probably a model 202"

Would those descriptions be historically accurate?

[Doug Rose]

In collecting telephones for as long as I can remember, round base was a 102, oval base was a 202. I know in the past years it has been stated that a B1 or B mount can be wired as a 202 or a 102. Conversely a D1 or D mount can be wired as a 102 or a 202. This is getting really technical in my opinion. I have been collecting for over 30 years. I don't know the difference between a side toned or an anti side toned set. To me, it is labeled correctly for the layman. I am supposedly a knowledgeable collector, and I'll still ask Janet when she finds one, is it a 102 or a 202, check the base round or oval. I think when you get into the mounts, it would confuse more than educate. Its an A mount, but it doesn't say A anywhere, its...........just my opinion.....Doug

[bingster]

I tend to fall on the side of laxity with this one.  I agree with Bill that most (if not nearly all) B1 mountings were installed as 102s, and most D1 mountings were installed as 202s, and for that reason your descriptions are probably just fine as they are.  

Whatever you do, don't call it them "desk stands," as that refers to what we call candlesticks.  The ones with handsets are properly termed "Handset telephone mountings," rather than desk stands.  And I wouldn't recommend putting that in either, unless your goal is to put people to sleep. LOL

[paul-f]

After looking briefly at some of the BSPs in the C32 series and a few early catalog pages and trying to come up with simple to understand terms, the following seem to be reasonable suggestions:

  Western Electeric B Type Telephone
  Western Electeric D Type Telephone

or

  Western Electric round-base telephone
  Western Electric oval-base telephone  (or elliptical-base, if you prefer)

BSPs make it clear that the phrase "Hand Set Mounting." applies to the base of the set  (e.g. C32.301, available in the TCI Library) and that the phrase "Hand Telephone Sets" applies to the entire set  (e.g. 32.111 in my collection).

Since we do not have the facts to differentiate between a 102 and a 202, but do have visual evidence to spot a B type mounting from a D type mounting, it seems that B and D are clearly preferable to 102 and 202.

After listening to the banter on the club lists for several years, I tend to avoid using 102 ans 202 at all costs.

It may be safer (and more reader-friendly) to side-step the issue and go with round and oval, as they are terms recognizable to average non-collectors, yet somewhat meaningful - yet accurate.

I will stress that I don't consider myself an expert in this area, but am also an interested historian trying to be accurate where possible, and always like to feel comfortable about my info sources.

For a more definitive ruling, submit your request to the ATCA and TCI lists and run for cover.  It would be entertaining to see the discussion.

[Adam]

Wow.  I thought the answer to this was going to be easy!  :-)

Would it be incorrect and/or overly redundant to say "Western Electric B type round base telephone" and "Western Electric D type elliptical base telephone"?

Also, does anyone have handy, the first years the B1 and D1 were made available?

[Phonesrfun]

Also, does anyone have handy, the first years the B1 and D1 were made available?

It's in Larry Wolff's book that I can look at when I get home from work, unless someone else has the information more handy than I do.

[paul-f]

The Telephone Story poster (published by AT&T) lists the B type as 1928 and the D type as 1930.
http://www.porticus.org/bell/the_telephone_story_poster_1965.html