French Grammont phone fragment with antique dial made by Western Electric?

[countryman]

I found a strange dial that seems to be quite old. It's like the one that can also be seen on Alain's page:
http://alain.levasseur.pagesperso-orange.fr/page14.htm
Alain says it was made by Western Electric for early french automated exchanges.
My dial has no recoil spring and it seems like it never had one? Can't see where one should attach to...
I made a short video about it:
https://youtu.be/Gs3NBS5CnzI

It came with the fragment of a Grammont phone, but is not original to it. The dials that usually came with those phones or were retrofitted on them attach to the small slits in the front face and are latched with a mechanism inside. This one was bolted to round holes that obviously were drilled for it later.

Any ideas on age and origin of the dial are welcome!

[FABphones]

I was admiring that very same dial the other day:
https://www.britishtelephones.com/dials/dialbrit.html#no1

Go to dial #5, for a comparison with yours, about halfway down the page on above link.

I want one. 

[Jack Ryan]

That is a Western Electric 7000 series dial. It was first used on the Rotary exchanges in the UK (Darlington and Dudly) starting in 1914. They were used extensively in Europe and and other places where the Rotary Exchange was used. In Oslo and NZ, they were fitted with reverse number plates.

Originally, they used a pulse timing that was incompatible with the Strowger world but eventually came to the party.

Early French exchanges were Strowger where Mercedes dials were used. Later exchanges probably used the 7000 series dial.

Jack

[tubaman]

Nice old dial - pretty rare I think.
Shame the front cover is missing - that'll be hard to replace.

[Jack Ryan]

I was admiring that very same dial the other day:
https://www.britishtelephones.com/dials/dialbrit.html#no1

Go to dial #5, for a comparison with yours, about halfway down the page on above link.

The GPO Dial Nos 5 and 6 are older than this one. They have the retainer fastened by screws - this one clips on and is missing like so many others.

Same manufacturer and type, different age.

Jack

[countryman]

Thanks folks.
"Pull dial around and let go" - so it must have had a return spring. But where was it?

Edit, found the spring: It's under the notched disc. A relatively small coil spring. It was just unhooked, not broken. It will unwind as soon the finger wheel is taken off.

Edit #2, further research showed that "7002B" should be the model number of the dial, as indicated on the finger stop. Dials of this type were also built by BTMC in Antwerp.

See also: https://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/bc-switching-library/btmc-antwerp/596-btmc-7002-dial-maintenance

[countryman]

I fixed the spring, cleaned and oiled the dial, tested it and it works fine.
The missing cover does not bother me much - having the governor visible isn't too bad ;-)

So what to do with the "Grammont" phone fragment that came with it? It's an empty shell, cradle and handset are missing. Make it a working phone with off brand parts? Finding original parts would probably exceed the value of an original and complete phone...

What cradle and handset design might have been sitting on it originally?

[RB]

Wow. That thing looks cool by itself!

[FABphones]

What cradle and handset design might have been sitting on it originally?

What you have left is part of a French PTT 24. I have several of these, am very fond of them. I can't imagine what they have done to that one.

Here is one of my threads, a PTT 24 I refurbished:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=21102

If you search PTT 24 via the 'search' option above, other threads should come up, lots more photos too.

[Jack Ryan]

That phone is similar to a PTT 24 but it is not one. It is a telephone for a private network - it was not used by the French PTT.

I haven't seen one with a Western Electric dial on it before but I am inclined to think it was used on a Western Electric PAX.

Regards
Jack

[FABphones]

That phone is similar to a PTT 24 but it is not one. It is a telephone for a private network - it was not used by the French PTT.

I haven't seen one with a Western Electric dial on it before but I am inclined to think it was used on a Western Electric PAX.

Regards
Jack

This is interesting. 'That phone' - countryman's phone?

Countryman says it is marked Grammont, a French company. I have only ever seen one similar handset on a similar short metal stem, but unfortunately the source has a reputation for 'description inaccuracies'.

Countryman, could you add close up photos of the plaques (there should be two), on the base you have?

Can we explore this one further Jack - more about the origin and private network info etc. Am always interested to read this sort of additional info.

I have several PTT 24's, one plaque says made in Germany (thread on here), others all French marque. All with official French issue numbered stamps. Lots of photos in and out of all.

We can start a new thread if countryman prefers.

ETA: Just just spotted a missing piece from near one slit (on left of photo) that would have held the French dial casing on. That part is fragile, breaks easily and is not usually repairable. The original dial may have been lost because of that.

[countryman]

That was exactly my thought Jack. I did a lot of search to find a pic of a similar unit but couldn't ;-)
It looks much like the PTT 1924 I already have, but the column and the hookswitch/cradle assembly are totally different. Also, it does not have any "Proprieté de l'état" marks on it and the shell is taller.


The dial was obviously cobbled onto the phone. It does not use the original slit and latch gadget (which exists) but extra holes were drilled (and not deburred). It does not look too bad altogether, though. And the dial specs are close enough to work on modern systems.
The handset isn't too uncommon and probably could be found somehow, but the original cradle...
I'm tempted by the idea to improvise or adapt "something" at the risk of being called a cobbler myself. But the shell is too nice to be left unused.


Edit@ FABphones, I'll add a photo. There is only one plaque and no further marks, that made me also think it was a "private" phone. My guess is also that many different versions of those non-PTT phones were made and that it might be hard to tell which handset or dial is "original".
I modified the title of my original posting so I think we may continue in this thread.

Edit#2, pic of the dial mount inside the shell with the coarsely drilled extra holes and side by side with a PTT 1924

[Jack Ryan]

There were lots of Model 24 style telephones - some were wood, some Bakelite - all sorts. All except the "normal" version were for private systems.

My Grammont only has the maker's label.

LMT (the designer of the Model 24) had another interesting version.

I don't have the LMT one but I am looking. (The image has the wrong receiver)

Regards
Jack

[FABphones]

There were lots of Model 24 style telephones - some were wood, some Bakelite - all sorts....

The majority of phones I come across in France I recognise and know the individual model names, countrymans phone (base) is one of the few I haven't found for sale so far. 

That phone is similar to a PTT 24 but it is not one....

If it's not PTT24 I'd like to pin down its exact model name. I'll see if I can find out anything more.

I don't have the LMT one but I am looking. (The image has the wrong receiver)....

Do you have a photo of what the correct receiver should look like?

[Jack Ryan]

Do you have a photo of what the correct receiver should look like?

On second thought, I think it is the correct receiver.

I thought initially it should be a US WE receiver but all the pictures I have have show the UK type receiver - influence from BWE or BTMC I suppose.

Here is a gaggle of Model 24s

http://alain.levasseur.pagesperso-orange.fr/page9.htm

Regards
Jack