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My new Frankenpayphone

Started by AdamAnt316, August 24, 2014, 08:09:29 PM

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dsk

Not much help from me her, but i have had some telephones for years, and suddenly I realize that: Now I now enough to try again!

Don't give up! One day...

dsk

AdamAnt316

#31
Perhaps, though I think it'll be a rather tall order. On the short list of what needs to be repaired or replaced if I were to attempt to restore it to original condition:

  • Coin relay
  • Coin vault
  • Coin vault door (since the one on there now is just a dummy plate)
  • Coin control capacitor (since the original one was hacked up to make the ringer "work")
  • Upper terminal strip
  • Proper handset (and armored handset cord?)
  • Upper housing lock plus everything involved with making it lock closed
  • Fix whatever's causing the coins to drop incorrectly
  • Lengthen the red wires coming from the coin microphone junction box, since somebody snipped them
  • Remove the 425B network, and undo all the changes needed to make it work
  • Remove the ringer and its associated capacitor
  • Patch the holes on the side of the coin vault area used to mount the ringer
And probably several more. The biggest possible monkey wrench is the fact that someone took a 212G back, and stuck a 233G upper housing on it. Unless I were to find someone willing to do a swap, it'd never truly be original. I think it'd be easier to just find a different payphone which hasn't been hacked up quite as badly, but we'll see. For now, I think it's fine as-is.

Anyway, in happier news, the ringer seems to be working! At first, the clapper was moving, but no noticeable ringing sound could be heard. After fiddling with the loudness adjustment and bias spring, I'm definitely getting some appreciable ringing from it, though it's not particularly strong (not entirely surprising, considering that it's been given a gongectomy). Perhaps I'll try replacing the ringer with a Princess or Trimline type at some point, but this will do for now. :)
-Adam

AdamAnt316

A couple of new questions:

1. Why doesn't the coin chute mechanism work normally when the upper housing is installed in the phone? When outside of the phone, it seems to work normally (dime hits the bell twice before falling out the bottom, first nickel waits for the second one to be inserted before both hit the bell and then fall out the bottom, quarter hits the gong, and falls out the bottom). However, when the upper housing is in place, only dimes work as they should (falling directly into where the coin vault would be after hitting the bell twice), with nickels falling directly into the coin return bucket, and quarters generally getting stuck, usually missing the bottom chute entirely and ending up within the bottom of the base housing. Could it be something to do with the lever on the end of the hookswitch mechanism? Does it matter whether the handset is on- or off-hook when the upper housing is installed?

2. What sort of handset and handset cord should be installed in this thing? Was there anything special about the handsets used with these phones? I know that later payphones used armored handset cords, but were those in use when the 233G was originally put into service? The ITT handset and plain coiled handset cord are the main things bugging me about this phone at the moment, and I'd like to bring that part back closer to original at some point.
-Adam

mentalstampede

#33
Handset should be OFF HOOK when installing the upper housing.  The lever on the switchook assembly that you mentioned will interfere and possibly get bent if the handset is on hook when you put the phone back together.  One other thing about your coin issues: are you trying coins with the handset on hook? If so, the previously mentioned lever opens a gate on the coin track that causes nickels to automatically be rejected into the coin return if the phone is on hook.

As far as the type of handset, a G type handset is correct. Maybe a G3? (EDIT: I see your phone has late-1950s dates in it; a G1 might be more appropriate in that case.) Often the caps were glued on to prevent tampering, but that's not really necessary. Obviously, it should be a Western, not an ITT. Payphones could be found with either armored or curly cords, so use whichever one fits your preference.

Another note: You mention that there is a 425 network present. The 425 network contains a ringer condenser. As long as you're using this network, you shouldn't need any extra capacitor to make the ringer function properly. Also, in original configuration, a 425 type network would have been used with this phone; it simply would have been installed in an external 685 subset box instead of mounted inside the paystation.
My name is Kenn, and I like telephones.

"Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something." --Robert Heinlein

AdamAnt316

Quote from: mentalstampede on September 20, 2014, 09:27:50 AM
Handset should be OFF HOOK when installing the upper housing.  The lever on the switchook assembly that you mentioned will interfere and possibly get bent if the handset is on hook when you put the phone back together.  One other thing about your coin issues: are you trying coins with the handset on hook? If so, the previously mentioned lever opens a gate on the coin track that causes nickels to automatically be rejected into the coin return if the phone is on hook.

Thanks for the reply. What shape is the switch-hook lever supposed to be, just straight out from what it's attached to? I futzed around with it, and nickels now seem to be acting a bit more like they should, though they tend to get stuck in the chute. Does the lever only affect nickels? Why wouldn't it affect dimes or quarters? Speaking of which, quarters (well, ones which don't manage to get stuck in the chute) keep getting stuck on the lip above where the coin relay would normally be, instead of dropping into the coin box after triggering the gong and falling out of the coin chute. Why might this happen?

Quote from: mentalstampede on September 20, 2014, 09:27:50 AM
As far as the type of handset, a G type handset is correct. Maybe a G3? (EDIT: I see your phone has late-1950s dates in it; a G1 might be more appropriate in that case.) Often the caps were glued on to prevent tampering, but that's not really necessary. Obviously, it should be a Western, not an ITT. Payphones could be found with either armored or curly cords, so use whichever one fits your preference.

Good to know, thanks. When were armored cords introduced? One site seems to imply that they started being used around the same time that the single-slot 'fortress' payphones began appearing, but I've seen three-slot phones which had them as well. Aside from potentially-glued-on caps, were there any differences between the G1/G3s used on regular phones, and the ones used with payphones? According to this page, there are differences in the length of wires as they exit the end of the handset cord, but I'll probably just keep the existing cord since it seems to work (unless I get a handset with an armored cord).

Quote from: mentalstampede on September 20, 2014, 09:27:50 AM
Another note: You mention that there is a 425 network present. The 425 network contains a ringer condenser. As long as you're using this network, you shouldn't need any extra capacitor to make the ringer function properly. Also, in original configuration, a 425 type network would have been used with this phone; it simply would have been installed in an external 685 subset box instead of mounted inside the paystation.

Whoever modified this phone installed the network where the coin control condenser originally would've been, wired the dial to its relevant terminals, and then wired the other relevant terminals to the mating contacts which connect the upper housing to the lower housing. Since the added ringer is within the lower housing, they didn't bother to make use of the A and K terminals in the 425B, and wired the old coin control condenser (which they left floating around loose where the coin relay would've been) in series with one half of the ringer's winding as a crude approximation. I suppose I could wire the ringer to the A and K terminals of the network, but it would make the upper housing awkward to remove. I'm toying with moving the new capacitor so that it's wired to the slate and red/slate wire terminals, as it would've been with the network, but it seems to be working OK as it is.
-Adam

mentalstampede

They managed to fit a 425 in the upper housing where the coin condenser goes? That makes sense. Maybe the network is pushing on the coin mechanism and causing your issue with the quarters getting stuck? You might try dropping coins through the mechanism with the upper housing setting on a table and watch to see if the quarters strike the network housing; that 425 network is much bulkier than the condenser assembly that would be there normally.  I am guilty of installing a 425 in a payphone myself, but I'd like to think my solution was more elegant: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11331.msg121915#msg121915

As far as the difference in handsets, other than the glued caps there's not much different. From what I understand, the changeover to armored cords was a gradual thing, so a phone from the late 1960s onward could have originally been supplied with either type of cord. I see the coin mech in yours appears to have 1959 dates, so I would lean toward using a curly cord if you want to restore it to as original as possible a configuration, but phones in the field were often refurbed with later style components as they became available, and often from different manufacturers too if they were operated or refurbed outside of the auspices of the Bell System.

The lever should stick pretty much straight out.  It seems to look okay in the pictures you posted previously.
My name is Kenn, and I like telephones.

"Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something." --Robert Heinlein

AdamAnt316

#36
Quote from: mentalstampede on September 22, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
They managed to fit a 425 in the upper housing where the coin condenser goes? That makes sense. Maybe the network is pushing on the coin mechanism and causing your issue with the quarters getting stuck? You might try dropping coins through the mechanism with the upper housing setting on a table and watch to see if the quarters strike the network housing; that 425 network is much bulkier than the condenser assembly that would be there normally.  I am guilty of installing a 425 in a payphone myself, but I'd like to think my solution was more elegant: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11331.msg121915#msg121915

Very nicely done! Whoever modified the phone I have installed the ringer in the coin box, as you did, but by sawing the second gong off, and attaching it directly to the side of the coin vault area, drilling a hole through the lower housing to do so. >:( Here are some pictures of the hackjob:








I suppose it's possible that the network is pushing the coin hopper backwards a bit, though I'm not sure how I'd prove that. There's some room to shift the network around, I think, given that it's only attached at one point as shown in the above image, but I'm not sure if it'd be enough.

Quote from: mentalstampede on September 22, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
As far as the difference in handsets, other than the glued caps there's not much different. From what I understand, the changeover to armored cords was a gradual thing, so a phone from the late 1960s onward could have originally been supplied with either type of cord. I see the coin mech in yours appears to have 1959 dates, so I would lean toward using a curly cord if you want to restore it to as original as possible a configuration, but phones in the field were often refurbed with later style components as they became available, and often from different manufacturers too if they were operated or refurbed outside of the auspices of the Bell System.

Again, good to know. I'll probably end up tracking down a Western Electric G1/G3, and fitting it onto the existing cord. As far as dates go, I'm not entirely sure about the lower housing, since most of the original 212G markings were painted over at some point in the past. Vermillion ink on the inside of the lower housing seems to say R2-73, and there's a hint of a painted-over "R6-72" below the markings on the back. Hard to tell what would be 'original' for this mutt. :-\

Quote from: mentalstampede on September 22, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
The lever should stick pretty much straight out.  It seems to look okay in the pictures you posted previously.

That picture was taken the first time I disassembled it. It did end up getting bent out-of-shape after I took it apart multiple times, and even after I'd straightened it out, it was automatically sending nickels to the coin return even when off-hook. Now it seems to be working closer to what it should be, though with the handset on-hook, inserted nickels won't drop into the coin return unless I push the Coin Release button, and even then, it doesn't always work. And with it off-hook, inserting a second nickel won't always release the first one, and both get jammed (the Coin Release button sometimes unjams them, but not always). Rather confusing, really...
-Adam

mentalstampede

Ouch! It's amazing what kind of hacks people have come up with to "convert" these things sometimes. :o

Those markings certainly sound like refurb marks.  It looks like the lower housing has the remains of a post-pay coin hopper, so that would be consistent with it being a 212G. Is the vane in the hopper permanently set in the direction of the vault by means of a small screw?

If it was mine I would consider relocating the network to the lower housing somewhere; perhaps in front of the coin hopper.  Since you've got a mix of pre and post-pay components, but that would at least allow you to return the upper housing to its stock configuration, including putting the nickel-gate electromagnet and the coin signal transmitters back into operation. This would also let you use the ringer condenser built into the network without running extra wires between the upper and lower housing.  I've attached a schematic that I found to be the most helpful when doing mine. It's for a 234G, which is identical electronically to a 233. The way it's drawn, it's easy to see where everything should go and also easy to see what to omit if you don't have a coin relay.

As far as the voice condenser goes, the phone will work okay without it, but since you have it, you might as well use it. My phone was missing the clip to hold it, but I was able to purchase one from Steve Hilsz (navysalvage.com) I believe.  It looks like the hack-artist who did yours at least left enough wire for it to be hooked back up correctly.

One final note: I have often wondered myself why the phone going on hook only causes nickels to be rejected, and I believe the point of that is to allow any coins that have been inserted but not released from the nickle gate to be returned if someone inadvertently inserts a nickle and does not insert a second and complete the call.  If you take the receiver off hook, insert one nickle (which should be caught by the gate) and then put the handset back on the hook, the coin in the chute should release into the return bucket.
My name is Kenn, and I like telephones.

"Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something." --Robert Heinlein

AdamAnt316

#38
Quote from: mentalstampede on September 23, 2014, 12:43:58 AM
Ouch! It's amazing what kind of hacks people have come up with to "convert" these things sometimes. :o

Yep, this phone was likely modified in this fashion by the supposed "Long Island Telephone Co.", one of numerous companies who performed back-alley modifications on old payphones to turn them into 'regular' wall phones, as sold through prestigious publications such as Playboy Magazine. ::) More on their practices can be found here. I think I got somewhat lucky on this phone, given that it doesn't seem to exhibit the uglier aspects of the conversion seen on that phone, but the signs are definitely there...

Quote from: mentalstampede on September 23, 2014, 12:43:58 AM
Those markings certainly sound like refurb marks.  It looks like the lower housing has the remains of a post-pay coin hopper, so that would be consistent with it being a 212G. Is the vane in the hopper permanently set in the direction of the vault by means of a small screw?

If there's a screw locking the vane, I can't see it, but it certainly doesn't move much. What's the difference between a post-pay hopper, and a pre-pay one? Might that explain the weirder aspects about how this phone seems to 'handle' coins, given that the upper-housing is from a pre-pay phone?

Quote from: mentalstampede on September 23, 2014, 12:43:58 AM
If it was mine I would consider relocating the network to the lower housing somewhere; perhaps in front of the coin hopper.  Since you've got a mix of pre and post-pay components, but that would at least allow you to return the upper housing to its stock configuration, including putting the nickel-gate electromagnet and the coin signal transmitters back into operation. This would also let you use the ringer condenser built into the network without running extra wires between the upper and lower housing.  I've attached a schematic that I found to be the most helpful when doing mine. It's for a 234G, which is identical electronically to a 233. The way it's drawn, it's easy to see where everything should go and also easy to see what to omit if you don't have a coin relay.

I think I'll leave the network where-it-is for now, given that it seems to allow the unit to work fairly well as a regular phone. Besides, I'm pretty sure that this thing is too far gone to be returned to original shape without major surgery, which I don't feel capable of doing at this point. That schematic will come in handy should I feel up to the task, however, thanks. Might there be a way to wire the coin transmitter back into the existing circuit, at the least?

Quote from: mentalstampede on September 23, 2014, 12:43:58 AM
As far as the voice condenser goes, the phone will work okay without it, but since you have it, you might as well use it. My phone was missing the clip to hold it, but I was able to purchase one from Steve Hilsz (navysalvage.com) I believe.  It looks like the hack-artist who did yours at least left enough wire for it to be hooked back up correctly.

The big silver condenser? That's pretty much hosed at this point, because I had to cut off most of the wire going into it in an attempt to get the ringer working again, and the other wire coming from it had been snipped at some point in order to wire it between the ringer and its associated terminal. I thought the silver condenser was involved with coin control, anyway. Might try and get another one someday, but I'm in no huge rush at this point.

Quote from: mentalstampede on September 23, 2014, 12:43:58 AM
One final note: I have often wondered myself why the phone going on hook only causes nickels to be rejected, and I believe the point of that is to allow any coins that have been inserted but not released from the nickle gate to be returned if someone inadvertently inserts a nickle and does not insert a second and complete the call.  If you take the receiver off hook, insert one nickle (which should be caught by the gate) and then put the handset back on the hook, the coin in the chute should release into the return bucket.

That does make sense. I just tested it out, and as it stands, nickels inserted either on- or off-hook just get stuck in the chute most of the time. Pressing the coin release will cause them to fall into the coin return bucket most of the time. If I give the second nickel an extra push into the slot with the handset off-hook, they will sometimes hit the bells as they should and drop into the coin vault area, but not always. Guessing the lever is still a bit off, or something.  :-\
-Adam

mentalstampede

#39
There's not really any difference in the hopper itself so much as there is in the equipment mounted on the hopper.  Both a pre-pay and a post-pay will have a coin trigger to signal the phone that the initial deposit has been made, but what happens after that is different. In a post pay phone, the hopper is fixed to always dump the coins directly into the vault as they are deposited. There is no provision at all for the phone to return change unless it is rejected from the upper housing coin chute. In a pre-pay phone, the coins deposited are held in escrow in the hopper until the call is completed, whereupon the phone will either refund or collect depending on weather or not the call was successful.  In the case of dialing the operator, the coins would be returned as well.  Long story short, a pre-pay hopper has a vane controlled by the coin relay, and a post-pay phone has a vane that is permanently fixed in position.

If you want to hook the coin transmitters up, that shouldn't be too difficult. You'll need to replace or splice onto the clipped brown wires on the coin chute, and run one of them to the BK terminal on the transfer contacts (this should also connect to the BK terminal on the dial). Next run the other brown wire to the A terminal on the coin chute, and connect a jumper from the E terminal on the coin chute to the R terminal on the transfer contacts.  Provided nothing else has been wired in a strange manner, this should make the coin signal transmitters and the coin chute electromagnet that opens the nickel gate operational.

Another possibility considering the back-alley conversion history of your phone may be that you have a damaged coin chute that is causing the nickels to get stuck. :(

My name is Kenn, and I like telephones.

"Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something." --Robert Heinlein

AdamAnt316

Quote from: mentalstampede on September 24, 2014, 07:02:07 PM
There's not really any difference in the hopper itself so much as there is in the equipment mounted on the hopper.  Both a pre-pay and a post-pay will have a coin trigger to signal the phone that the initial deposit has been made, but what happens after that is different. In a post pay phone, the hopper is fixed to always dump the coins directly into the vault as they are deposited. There is no provision at all for the phone to return change unless it is rejected from the upper housing coin chute. In a pre-pay phone, the coins deposited are held in escrow in the hopper until the call is completed, whereupon the phone will either refund or collect depending on weather or not the call was successful.  In the case of dialing the operator, the coins would be returned as well.  Long story short, a pre-pay hopper has a vane controlled by the coin relay, and a post-pay phone has a vane that is permanently fixed in position.

I looked closer at the coin hopper when I last had it open, and sure enough, there's a screw holding that vane in position! I can't believe I didn't notice that earlier (probably figured the screw was holding part of the hopper together, or something). Would removing this screw be enough to turn the lower housing into a prepay type? If so, this definitely proves that the conversion was far from factory (not like we didn't know that already, of course) and that a prepay upper housing was simply stuck onto a postpay backplate without any attempt made to make it look like a true conversion.  >:(

Quote from: mentalstampede on September 24, 2014, 07:02:07 PM
If you want to hook the coin transmitters up, that shouldn't be too difficult. You'll need to replace or splice onto the clipped brown wires on the coin chute, and run one of them to the BK terminal on the transfer contacts (this should also connect to the BK terminal on the dial). Next run the other brown wire to the A terminal on the coin chute, and connect a jumper from the E terminal on the coin chute to the R terminal on the transfer contacts.  Provided nothing else has been wired in a strange manner, this should make the coin signal transmitters and the coin chute electromagnet that opens the nickel gate operational.

Good to know, thanks. How would the coin electromagnet have worked originally? I'm wondering if having it wired into the circuit would have some sort of adverse reaction on how the phone works. I'm thinking the same about the coin transmitters, but don't think it'd be quite as much of a potential load on the works. I'll likely just keep the phone the way it is, but it'd be kinda neat for the caller to be able to hear coins being dropped through the works, for the heck of it.  ;)

Quote from: mentalstampede on September 24, 2014, 07:02:07 PM
Another possibility considering the back-alley conversion history of your phone may be that you have a damaged coin chute that is causing the nickels to get stuck. :(

Fortunately, I don't think that's the case, since the coin chute seems to work normally with the upper housing removed. I'm guessing the hookswitch lever is still a bit misaligned, not allowing the gate to work as it should. I really wish it was possible to see how the lever was mating to the coin chute when I install the upper housing, or something...
-Adam

poplar1

The "hopper mechanism unit" is actually quite different on a WE postpay, such as 212G, when compared to a prepay, such as 233G. The postpay has a place to mount a varistor, a resistor, and a contact that is momentarily opened by a coin (or coins).
A prepay has a coin relay and hopper trigger contacts. A coin relay won't fit on the postpay hopper.

Your hopper is from a 212G. On the other hand, the coin return bucket is usually found only on prepays. 212s usually have an open coin return along with a "coin return" plaque mounted above the opening.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

mentalstampede

#42
The hopper itself should be the same, and if you had a prepay relay and trigger and stuff, it probably could be converted to prepay, yes. Removing the screw would be part of it, but you'd have to have all of the pre-pay specific stuff to add to it as well.

Hooking up the electromagnet shouldn't have any negative effect on things.  In a phone in service, the purpose of the electromagnet is to hold the nickle gate open and thus allow a single deposited at the request of the operator to be heard. So whenever the phone is connected to another phone, the electromagnet will be engaged.  On a traditional non-DTF payphone, once you received dialtone the electromagnet would engage and remain engaged as long as the telephone circuit is active. The only exception is that the electromagnet disengages when the dial is turned away from the stop. so every time you dial a number the electromagnet will click off and then back on.

When you hook up a phone without a relay and a regular phone line (no coin line or controller), in essence the phone will behave like the initial deposit has been made as soon as the hookswitch is lifted, and nickles deposited will fall directly through individually and cause the bell to chime.

EDIT: My only experience with post-pay phones is a NE QSD3A, which uses the same hopper as a 233. My mistake. Thanks, poplar1!
My name is Kenn, and I like telephones.

"Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something." --Robert Heinlein

AdamAnt316

#43
Quote from: poplar1 on September 25, 2014, 10:11:21 PM
The "hopper mechanism unit" is actually quite different on a WE postpay, such as 212G, when compared to a prepay, such as 233G. The postpay has a place to mount a varistor, a resistor, and a contact that is momentarily opened by a coin (or coins).
A prepay has a coin relay and hopper trigger contacts. A coin relay won't fit on the postpay hopper.

Your hopper is from a 212G. On the other hand, the coin return bucket is usually found only on prepays. 212s usually have an open coin return along with a "coin return" plaque mounted above the opening.

Thanks for the clarification. I was afraid of something like this; proof that this phone will never be or work as original unless I were able to find a 233G lower housing, or a 212G upper housing. :( Also more proof that it was a total kludge, though the presence of the 233G-style coin hopper coin return bucket definitely has me wondering. The Long Island Telephone Co. (or one of its confederates) strikes again...  >:(
-Adam

ETA: Oops, goofed on the terminology, as corrected in the post below...

poplar1

To clarify, your coin hopper, located inside the phone, is a postpayment dial type--such as found in a 212G. Here is a similar one in a 193G, which is the previous postpay model.

It is your pull bucket that is the type used on prepays such as the 233G. Postpays usually don't have the pull bucket, but it's possible that yours did.  The photo shows a 193G lower housing with an open coin return.

The postpay upper housing also uses a polarized electromagnet rather than a non-polarized one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WESTERN-ELECTRIC-193G-payphone-paystation-telephone-paytelephone-Bell-System-/201176368744
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.