Hello,
This WE 653 will not break a dial tone when I try to make a call. The phone will receive calls and ring and it will transmit and receive and transmit...it just won't break a dial tone and call out.
The wires are in the original bundle and they are faded so I can't tell what color they are. I installed another dial using the same wire positions as the #4 dial that was in it originally. I traced all of the wires in the phone with a millimeter and got a resistance reading where I should compared to the 653 wiring diagram on the TCI website. Some of the wires showed resistance at more than the connection shown in the wiring diagram and I wasn't sure if this should happen.
I also installed two calibrated #5 dials and a calibrated #6 dial in it but it still doesn't break a dial tone. The dial and hook contacts appear to be opening and closing like they should.
Any help with troubleshooting this would really be appreciated.
Thanks,
Gary
This is a nice looking set, clean and well kept.
Your set is a 653-BC. This version was used for the tip-party subscriber on two-party message rate lines.
For this type of service the set was specially wired and also had an additional contact pair on the hook switch.
The result was that the central office could automatically detect which of the two sets on the same local loop made a call by measuring the impedance on the line, and could selectively ring either phone.
Please make sure you are using the correct wiring diagram, not the one for the 653-A version. The 653-A version is the corresponding set for the ring-party, or for standard bridged service.
Which diagram did you compare the set to when measuring?
Perhaps the set was mis-wired by someone for the reason stated. Since you have a meter to test, I would measure the internal resistance of the set, i.e. measure across the line cord contacts L1 and L2, when the set is disconnected. Take the set off hook, and you should get some measurable resistance of several hundred ohms. Now slide a piece of paper or thin plastic between the contacts on the dial that generate the dial pulses. This would be the Y and BK terminals. You could also just disconnect the wire on Y (brown-yellow). The resistance measurement should be very high at this time. If you get no difference or only a small one, you know you have a problem, because your central office can't see the difference either.
Alternately, have to tried to disconnect one of the ringer wires (red or black) and try dialing?
What kind of line is the set connected to? VOIP or a copper line?
PS: I see there is a diagram glued into the housing. Could you take a clear shot of it and post it?
Thanks a lot for all of the valuable information. I won't pretend to understand all of it. I don't see two sets of hook switch contacts.
I have Cox telephone service and I use it all of thetime with many rotary phones.
I disconnected the ringer and is still won't dial out and I am not sure where the ringer wires were connect to when it worked. The diagram shows them connected to YY and GND but when I connected the wires that way it does not ring.
I am getting a large resistance reading between Y & BK but I am getting NO resistance when I contact L1 and L2 with the hook off.
Will you please tell me what might be wrong if I am not getting the large resistance you said I should get between L1 and L2.
I'm attaching a picture of the diagram that is in the phone but I don't know if you can read it. It's in the corner and I can't straighten out the two sides.
*** I was told the problem with not dialing out (breaking dial tone) might be a bad condensor. It has a long rectangle metal tube condensor with 2 contacts on each end. It says 1MF and 2MF. Is there a way to test the condensor?
I have some 250WVDC 0.47 capacitors if they would help. I bought these capacitiors last year when Bill Geurts recommended I get theem to correct a problem with another phone.
Thank again for all of your help...I really appreciate it.
Gary
Thanks for the diagram. That helps a lot.
To actually understand that diagram I had to redraw it as a real circuit diagram.
It is interesting how they wired this with a 101A induction coil. The equivalent of this telephone as a desk set was the 304. But that used the 101B induction coil which had a center tap in the primary winding. I don't know when the 304 or the 101B coil was introduced actually. Perhaps it was after the war. So they had to use a different scheme here for tip-party identification.
But I have a couple questions for you.
Did you express that the phone was working at one time? If so, what changed?
Quote from: gands-antiques on July 23, 2014, 11:47:23 PM
Thanks a lot for all of the valuable information. I won't pretend to understand all of it. I don't see two sets of hook switch contacts.
There is only one stack of contacts, but compared to a standard set (Type A) this one has extra contact springs piled up.
Looking closely at your pictures, I am wondering if someone resoldered the wires on the hookswitch. I seem to see unclean soldering that doesn't look like factory work. What does it look to you on the real object?
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I have Cox telephone service and I use it all of thetime with many rotary phones.
I disconnected the ringer and is still won't dial out and I am not sure where the ringer wires were connect to when it worked. The diagram shows them connected to YY and GND but when I connected the wires that way it does not ring.
Indeed that won't work according to the diagram, because this set was supposed receive ringing signal between ground and tip (L2).
You are receiving ringing between L1 and L2.
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I am getting a large resistance reading between Y & BK but I am getting NO resistance when I contact L1 and L2 with the hook off.
Will you please tell me what might be wrong if I am not getting the large resistance you said I should get between L1 and L2.
We need to revise this test.
Quote
I'm attaching a picture of the diagram that is in the phone but I don't know if you can read it. It's in the corner and I can't straighten out the two sides.
*** I was told the problem with not dialing out (breaking dial tone) might be a bad condensor. It has a long rectangle metal tube condensor with 2 contacts on each end. It says 1MF and 2MF. Is there a way to test the condensor?
My suspicion is not that any condenser is bad, but the the set needs to be properly wired for bridged service. I need to study the diagram a little more to suggest something.
Here is a somewhat improved version of your diagram.
Here is the true circuit diagram of this 653-BC.
Several possibilities exist for rewiring to use modern bridged ringing.
The red broken lines is one suggestions.
*Move the black ringer wire from GND to L1. I believe you have that already.
*Move the red ringer wire from YY to RR.
This puts the ringer and the 1MF condenser in series and straight across the telephone line on L1 and L2. The impedance of the ringer is fairly low, and probably represents about a 2 to 2.5 REN load. Other than that this makes the set equivalent to a 302. The exceptions are that the switches are placed slightly differently.
If this doesn't work, then your set is mis-wired elsewhere, I think. But the wires are impossible to trace by pictures and the colors all look more or less a shade of brown.
For comparison, here is a diagram for a 302 telephone in bridged ringing configuration.
- The phone has not dialed out since I bought it a couple of weeks ago.
- I looked at the original pictures of the wiring I posted and the ringer wires were connected Red to YY on the terminal block and Black to L1 on the network but when I reconnected the wires like this the ringer didn't work.
I finally got the ringer to work again by connecting the Red wire to L2 on the network and the Black to BK on the terminal board that is mounted on top of the capacitors. Now the ringer rings when I call the phone. When I lift the receiver off of the hook the ringer rings for a millisecond and the dial tone only stays on a couple of seconds. I must have messed it up worse by wiring the ringer the way I did.
- The solder on the hook switch look factory to me.
Thanks,
Gary
Quote from: gands-antiques on July 24, 2014, 06:42:37 PM
- The phone has not dialed out since I bought it a couple of weeks ago.
- I looked at the original pictures of the wiring I posted and the ringer wires were connected Red to YY on the terminal block and Black to L1 on the network but when I reconnected the wires like this the ringer didn't work.
I finally got the ringer to work again by connecting the Red wire to L2 on the network and the Black to BK on the terminal board that is mounted on top of the capacitors. Now the ringer rings when I call the phone. When I lift the receiver off of the hook the ringer rings for a millisecond and the dial tone only stays on a couple of seconds. I must have messed it up worse by wiring the ringer the way I did.
Yes, I would expect problems like that. You have the ringer alone on the line in series with the primary of the induction coil. That shunts the DC current permanently. The capacitor must be in the ringer circuit.
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- The solder on the hook switch look factory to me.
Ok, great.
Please try wiring the set as I described.
Hello and thanks again for all of your help!!
I didn't understand the intent of the the hook switch sketch.
I moved the ringer wires to the positions you suggested (Black to L1 and Red to RR) and now it does not ring at all. You said if this doesn't work, then the set is mis-wired elsewhere, you believe.
I believe it is mis-wired or possibly the hook switch contacts are not opening properly??
Even when I first got it and the ringer was working the phone would not dial out and it still won't.
I agree, the brown faded wiring and bundle material makes it impossible to trace the wires. A friend of mine suggested I cut open the bundles to expose all of the wires so each wire could be traced.
I hate to open up the wire bundles but I may have to??
Thanks,
Gary
Quote from: gands-antiques on July 24, 2014, 10:11:20 PM
Hello and thanks again for all of your help!!
I didn't understand the intent of the the hook switch sketch.
I moved the ringer wires to the positions you suggested (Black to L1 and Red to RR) and now it does not ring at all. You said if this doesn't work, then the set is mis-wired elsewhere, you believe.
I believe it is mis-wired or possibly the hook switch contacts are not opening properly??
Even when I first got it and the ringer was working the phone would not dial out and it still won't.
I agree, the brown faded wiring and bundle material makes it impossible to trace the wires. A friend of mine suggested I cut open the bundles to expose all of the wires so each wire could be traced.
I hate to open up the wire bundles but I may have to??
Thanks,
Gary
Oh, I would hate to do that too, and I don't think it is necessary. There aren't that many wires to trace. You just need to slide pieces of paper between the contacts on the dial and the hookswitch, so each spring is isolated and nothing conducts. Remove the transmitter and receiver elements, too. Then you can use an ohmmeter to verify connections and the resistance should always be very low, one or two ohms when you are at the ends of each wire.
Just don't take steps you are going to regret. This is a nice looking set and with patience it will work again.
The hookswitch diagram shows the terminal numbers as used in my schematic. The hookswitch consists of all the switches labeled HS, and the small numbers are the terminal numbers.
If the set doesn't ring with the suggested configuration, then it could be that the condenser is bad, indeed. It would mean that it is permanently open, not conducting AC.
But first make sure the 1MF condenser is correctly wired between L2 and RR. There are two capacitors in the can and you need to identify which leads are which. Perhaps those are mixed up.
To test this condenser you could simply disconnect it and use one of those ringing caps you have in its place.
The condenser leads were mostly connected to the wrong places. I connected them according to your note and to the wiring diagram in the phone and still didn't get it to dial out or ring with incoming call.
I disconnected the 4 leads to the two condensers and then I connected one of the .47 caps to each comdenser wire pair (one at a time) and it still wouldn't dial our or ring with incoming call.
Do both sets of leads need to be connected to .47 caps??
I put the meter on each set of capacitors leads (one pair at a time) and I set the meter to ohms and then to current but still didn't get a reading with either setting.
Is there a way to test the condensers with a multimedia?
Thanks,
Gary
Quote from: gands-antiques on July 24, 2014, 11:48:12 PM
The condenser leads were mostly connected to the wrong places. I connected them according to your note and to the wiring diagram in the phone and still didn't get it to dial out or ring with incoming call.
I disconnected the 4 leads to the two condensers and then I connected one of the .47 caps to each comdenser wire pair (one at a time) and it still wouldn't dial our or ring with incoming call.
Do both sets of leads need to be connected to .47 caps??
You connected the caps to the terminals (L2-RR and BK-C) and not to the leads from the old cap, correct?
If you connect only the ringer cap then the ringer should work but you wont be able to hear anything in the receiver. Not connecting the ringer cap only effects the ringer and the telephone should work.
Quote
I put the meter on each set of capacitors leads (one pair at a time) and I set the meter to ohms and then to current but still didn't get a reading with either setting.
Is there a way to test the condensers with a multimedia?
Caps can't be tested completely with most multimeters, only the more expensive models measure capacitances. But as an ohmmeter all can detect a shorted cap. The resistance will be low when it is shorted. You cannot test an open capacitor, when one of the leads is internally disconnected. If you have an AC audio generator you can test them, my measuring the AC current flowing through the cap.
However, substituting the audio condenser in the set (2MF) with a 0.47 is insufficient for the operation of the telephone. It needs to be 4x larger, and it seems that it was working anyhow.
In fact, from your descriptions it appears that all components in the phone are in working condition, just not all together. Perhaps there is some doubt about the ringing condenser. You can test by connecting only the ringer and capacitor in series across a telephone line, without the rest of the set. Connect the red wire of the telephone line to the black ringer wire, the red ringer wire to one lead of the condenser, and the other lead of the condenser to the green wire of the telephone line. When you call that line, the ringer should work. This is perhaps the best test of the ringer capacitor and the ringer in isolation from any other problems.
While you have the ringer and the ringer cap completely disconnected from the phone, you can test the audio portion. Connect the line between L1 and L2 and see if you can dial and talk and answer.
In order to get this telephone working correctly, you need to be systematic in diagnosis. Otherwise you'll waste a lot of time and will never get unambiguous answers. Don't just connect something here or there without a plan.
The first step is always determining exactly what you actually have in front of you. I do the same every time.
You said the "condenser leads were mostly connected to the wrong places." Where were they? Without knowing that in advance everything you did so far, is meaningless.
I don't mean to belittle your effort, sorry, if this seems trivial, sorry, please ignore.
Take inventory of the set, and write down what is connected where. I draw diagram sketches often by drawing the pieces on paper, and interconnecting them the way I find them with notes where warranted to explain something. Then I can sit down with a proper circuit diagram and compare without having to stick my fingers in between wires again and again and risk breaking those old solder joints.
The fact that something works in some configuration, doesn't always mean it is correct, like you found out about connecting the ringer between BK and L2, even if the phone worked somehow in that situation, it is not correct.
Old phones may have gone through many hands even if they still look nice. Sometimes, especially when they look nice. I have received beautiful phones from old collectors that were extremely miswired and had very poor audio function.
The beauty is that these old phones can almost always be repaired/rewired to work just as they did decades ago.
I just verified my circuit diagram and your wiring schematic found in the set against a diagram from the 1940 Issue 2 of BSP Section C63.233 that Poplar1 just posted here: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg130217#msg130217
We just need to figured out in which way your telephone differs from the diagram.
The condenser leads to RR and BK were reversed. I put them in the correct locations and the phone still wouldn't dial out or ring.
I'll try the testing you described when I get home tonight.
Thanks,
Gary
If you tested the ringer separately with a condenser, keep it disconnected for now to diagnose the other functions of the telephone.
Here is a basic signaling path test.
*Connect your ohmmeter across L1 and L2 of the set.
*Measure the resistance when the hookswitch is on-hook. It should be infinitely large.
*Now take the set off-hook and measure the resistance and note it. It should be anywhere from a hundred to several hundred ohms, depending on the condition of the transmitter element. When you remove the transmitter element at this point, your reading should be infinite again.
*Now rotate the dial from the rest position from any number, say 0, with your finger against the finger stop, as if you are going to dial, but don't release the wheel. Measure the resistance again. It should be very low, only a few ohms. Even 10 ohms would be too much, because essentially you have a straight metallic connection between L1 and L2, going through four switches. If it is larger than about 10 ohms, you may need to clean contacts on the dial and or the hookswitch.
*Release the finger wheel and see if your meter picks up the dial pulses. It may not, because of the way digital meters are constructed. But give it a try.
If the resistances are as expected, the set should be able to break dial tone, and probably even dial correctly.
If not we have to find what is miswired and your resistance values might provide a clue.
The resistance between L1 & L2 with hook on and also with hook off registered maximum meeting (pegged needle). It was also max resistance reading between L1 & L2 when dialing zero and holding it. The resistance was max when dial is released.
I don't know why the resistance checks were so high when you said they should be very low.
I found a black wire from I believe the dial connected to terminal block RR and i moved it to terminal block RR and THE PHONE CAME TO LIFE. It will dial out and receive calls but the only combination of terminal connections I could find that will ring is Red ringer wire to terminal block YY and Black ringer wire to network L2.
When I lift the receiver off of the hook the ringer rings for a millisecond so I know the wiring isn't totally correct.
Thanks,
Gary
Quote from: gands-antiques on July 25, 2014, 11:15:39 PM
The resistance between L1 & L2 with hook on and also with hook off registered maximum meeting (pegged needle). It was also max resistance reading between L1 & L2 when dialing zero and holding it. The resistance was max when dial is released.
I don't know why the resistance checks were so high when you said they should be very low.
Well, what is maximum on your meter? What scale do you have the meter set on? Can you choose a scale so that you get a good reading not full scale.
Are you using a traditional analog meter? Analog ohmmeters have their zero point at the right side (full scale), so perhaps you are measuring zero in all cases?
Quote
I found a black wire from I believe the dial connected to terminal block RR and i moved it to terminal block RR and THE PHONE CAME TO LIFE. It will dial out and receive calls but the only combination of terminal connections I could find that will ring is Red ringer wire to terminal block YY and Black ringer wire to network L2.
When I lift the receiver off of the hook the ringer rings for a millisecond so I know the wiring isn't totally correct.
Thanks,
Gary
You found it on RR and you moved it to RR? I don't understand.
Red ringer wire to YY and black to L2 cannot work when the set is wired correctly. check the other wire that is on YY and trace where it goes. It should go to hook switch terminals 2 and 4.
The little meter I have has only one OHM setting X1K. Also now the ringer isn't working again.
Thanks,
Gary
Quote from: gands-antiques on July 25, 2014, 11:39:32 PM
The little meter I have has only one OHM setting X1K. Also now the ringer isn't working again.
Thanks,
Gary
Did you change anything?
Please make sure you know what it is you are reading on your meter.
What happens when you short the two meter leads together? This is one of your reference points, zero ohms. Perhaps your meter has a screw adjustment to set the needle exactly to 0 for this. What is the reading when the two meter leads are not shorted? Is it on the left hand margin? That is an infinite resistance, an open circuit, the second reference point.
Read the ohm tick marks on the meter to understand what they mean. What is the largest value on the left? X1K means that one tick mark value is multiplied by 1000 ohms. Try to identify the 1000 ohm mark. Most of your readings from the phone will be between 0 and 1000, or infinite.
The needle pegs to the right Zero when I touch the two probes together. The screw is set to for the needle to align with the zero when the pprobes are touched. That is the reading I was trying to describe when I said the needle was pegged.
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I have an update on the wiring status...The phone is performing all functions now but the Ringer is ringing for a short millisecond when I lift the hook switch and it is also ringing with every number I dial when making a call.
I ended up connecting the Red ringer wire to RR on the terminal block and the Black ringer wire to L2 on the network.
I put paper between all dial contacts and traced the dial wires.
The dial W wire has resistance on Both of the REC contacts. The GN contact on the networt also shows resistance on Both REC contacts. I only see one wire to each REC contact on the wiring diagram so I don't know why multiple wires and contacts have resistance to both REC contact.
The BK dial wire is showing resistance at the 3rd from right hook contact and also on the BK contact on the terminal block.
This doesn't sound right either.
The other dial wires (BB, R and Y) are connected properly and show resistance as they should according to the wiring diagram.
Thanks,
Gary
Sounds like you're getting somewhere.
The bell tingle is not uncommon. It is caused by the direct current pulsing while dialing and when the line is connected. The solution is to increase the bias adjustment on the ringer just slightly.
You ringer has a spring connected to the armature and to a screw head with a thin cotton thread. Turn the screw head clockwise just a tine bit, probably no more that a 1/32 or 1/16 of a turn. That tightens the spring tension just enough to prevent the armature from moving on every DC pulse.
But be careful turning that screw, it is a soft brass screw and can easily break if forced too much.
Quote from: gands-antiques on July 26, 2014, 10:04:02 AM
I ended up connecting the Red ringer wire to RR on the terminal block and the Black ringer wire to L2 on the network.
This probably means that the wiring to L1 and L2 is interchanged. It should be the other way around, but is not critical.
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The dial W wire has resistance on Both of the REC contacts. The GN contact on the networt also shows resistance on Both REC contacts.
W is connected directly to the receiver. So you should have almost zero resistance. When you say "something has resistance", what do you mean?
The receiver should have a resistance of somewhere around 70 ohms, if I recall correctly. So, with a meter that only shows 1000 ohms per division, you will get a reading very close to zero.
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I only see one wire to each REC contact on the wiring diagram so I don't know why multiple wires and contacts have resistance to both REC contact.
The resistance of the receiver is quite low, and with an instrument on a high scale, you don't see it very clearly. In order to make wire tracing measurements, you either must measure resistances very precisely (down to single ohms), or you need to remove the receiver element, or disconnect one of the receiver leads. I think I mentioned that before.
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The BK dial wire is showing resistance at the 3rd from right hook contact and also on the BK contact on the terminal block.
This doesn't sound right either.
Again what do you mean by "showing resistance" ? The needle to the far right? That means it has very little resistance and is indeed what we expect.
Look at my circuit diagram and you see that the dial switch DS1 with the BK terminal is directly connected via the DP (dial pulse) switch to terminal 5 (3rd from right) on the hookswitch.
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The other dial wires (BB, R and Y) are connected properly and show resistance as they should according to the wiring diagram.
Thanks,
Gary
Again, you need to be clear about your meaning when using terms like "showing resistance". I have the feeling what you mean is that there is "conductivity", i.e. a reading close to zero, which is more or less the opposite.
You are correct..I meant to say zero resistance when the needle was pegged.
You did say earlier that the receiver element had to be removed and I had forgotten to do this. I just disconnected one of the leads on the receiver terminal and now I get correct wire traces.
I tightened the brass screw with the thread connected and the ringing stopped when dialing numbers.
The ring is still present when the hook switch is opened or closed.
Do you think I should switch the line cord wires on L1 and L2 contacts OR, did you mean all of the wires connected to L1 and L2 should be swapped except for the line cord wires?
Thanks,
Gary
Quote from: gands-antiques on July 26, 2014, 11:54:08 AM
You are correct..I meant to say zero resistance when the needle was pegged.
You did say earlier that the receiver element had to be removed and I had forgotten to do this. I just disconnected one of the leads on the receiver terminal and now I get correct wire traces.
I tightened the brass screw with the thread connected and the ringing stopped when dialing numbers.
GREAT !
Quote
The ring is still present when the hook switch is opened or closed.
Perhaps you need to adjust a little more. You have to play with it a little, carefully. Those threads can be very brittle by now, don't touch with fingers. Contamination with organic material could accelerate decomposition.
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Do you think I should switch the line cord wires on L1 and L2 contacts OR, did you mean all of the wires connected to L1 and L2 should be swapped except for the line cord wires?
Switching the LINE CORD WIRES would not make a difference in operation. However, that may help in reducing the bell tingle when the switch hook is closed or opened. Give it a try.
Swapping all connections to the L1 and L2 terminals depends on how the set is actually wired elsewhere, so that requires a full verification of all connections.
I manually compressed the spring that is connected to the thread slightly (1/4") and the ringing still happened when the hook was opened or closed so I don't think there would be enough adjustment to stop the ringing.
I reversed the line cord wires and the ringing is much less when hook is opened and closed.
I think at this point the phone is about as good as I can get it. It is fully functional now and it dials, transmits, receives and rings with incoming calls as it should.
I really want to thank you for your above and beyond expert instructions throughout our entire trouble shooting process.
Thanks you very much!!
Gary
You're welcome.
I am glad this beauty is working again.
Would you mind reading the date stamp off the 101A induction coil?
And any other dates that may be hidden somewhere. I can see one on the dial, which may be endin in 40? (other than the 5H* designation) Inside the transmitter should be a date too, and on the F1 element.
Enjoy!
The network date is lV-38. The date on the inside phone case (side with the wiring diagram) is I 39.
I may put a different dial in it.
Thanks,
Gary
Do you have reason to believe the dial that came with it was not original?
It's probably original. Looks like it is dated IV 40.
Alright, seems like a nice original telephone set in outstanding condition.
That the dial was added a year later isn't so disturbing, perhaps the exchange got upgraded to dial shortly later. Do you have any idea where the set came from? Sometimes sellers have good information about that, based on where they found it.
Quote from: unbeldi on July 26, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
That the dial was added a year later isn't so disturbing, perhaps the exchange got upgraded to dial shortly later.
Possibly, but the 653-BC and other similar tip party ID sets were used only on dial lines.
Quote from: poplar1 on July 26, 2014, 02:47:18 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 26, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
That the dial was added a year later isn't so disturbing, perhaps the exchange got upgraded to dial shortly later.
Possibly, but the 653-BC and other similar tip party ID sets were used only on dial lines.
Well, I don't think it should be that exclusive ("only") Mostly, yes.
The 1935 Western Electric catalog shows the 684BC subset, which is the equivalent in conjunction with 151-C desk stand or D6/203-telephone, and states the following:
The 684BC Subscriber Set is a common battery desk type set (anti-sidetone) with enclosed gongs. ... Intended for use in either manual or dial service for two-party selective message rate service....Now... they are known to make mistakes in the catalogs, as anyone, as the writing in these descriptions is always very generic and we know much less what actually happened in the field. So, for example, the second subscriber set on the two-party line is technically a standard -A set with ring-party selection, but there are mentionings, IIRC, that state for simplicity both stations on the message rate lines may use the same equipment, albeit rewired appropriately for the ring party.
Actually, I went into my phone room and was reminded that another 4H was on the phone when I got it. It doesn't have a date stamp on it but it has a "SEATTLE" WEst 7-2119 number card on it.
I tried the Seattle #4 dial, a #6 dial and the #4 that is currently on it trying to get it to work.
I bought the phone in Wichita KS a couple of weeks ago.
Thanks,
Gary
Quote from: unbeldi on July 26, 2014, 04:14:41 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 26, 2014, 02:47:18 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 26, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
That the dial was added a year later isn't so disturbing, perhaps the exchange got upgraded to dial shortly later.
Possibly, but the 653-BC and other similar tip party ID sets were used only on dial lines.
Well, I don't think it should be that exclusive ("only") Mostly, yes.
The 1935 Western Electric catalog shows the 684BC subset, which is the equivalent in conjunction with 151-C desk stand or D6/203-telephone, and states the following:
The 684BC Subscriber Set is a common battery desk type set (anti-sidetone) with enclosed gongs. ... Intended for use in either manual or dial service for two-party selective message rate service....
Now... they are known to make mistakes in the catalogs, as anyone, as the writing in these descriptions is always very generic and we know much less what actually happened in the field. So, for example, the second subscriber set on the two-party line is technically a standard -A set with ring-party selection, but there are mentionings, IIRC, that state for simplicity both stations on the message rate lines may use the same equipment, albeit rewired appropriately for the ring party.
You're correct that I should not have been exclusive. For the record, I was basing it on the following:
Section C63.324, Issue 3, 10-30-36 covers the sidetone and anti-sidetone common battery hand telephone set connections for the following class of service:
Two-Party Selective Message Rate (Dial Only)It includes the 103, 203, and 212.
Section C63.374, Issue 1, 3-2-36 shows the 51C and 151C Desk Stands for only one class of service:
Two-Party Selective Message Rate (Dial Only).
Section C63.232, Issue 2, 4-18-40 shows the 553C, 653BC, and 653CE:
Two-Party Selective Message Rate (Dial Only).
The dials and dial leads in the diagrams in the above sections are shown with solid lines. Usually, these are shown
with dotted lines, indicating both manual and dial options.
C63.323, C63.373, and C63.231 show the more common sets, which were used for other classes of service including
individual lines (manual and dial) and
two-party selective message rate lines (manual only).
Quote from: unbeldi on July 26, 2014, 04:14:41 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 26, 2014, 02:47:18 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 26, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
That the dial was added a year later isn't so disturbing, perhaps the exchange got upgraded to dial shortly later.
Possibly, but the 653-BC and other similar tip party ID sets were used only on dial lines.
Well, I don't think it should be that exclusive ("only") Mostly, yes.
The 1935 Western Electric catalog shows the 684BC subset, which is the equivalent in conjunction with 151-C desk stand or D6/203-telephone, and states the following:
The 684BC Subscriber Set is a common battery desk type set (anti-sidetone) with enclosed gongs. ... Intended for use in either manual or dial service for two-party selective message rate service....
Now... they are known to make mistakes in the catalogs, as anyone, as the writing in these descriptions is always very generic and we know much less what actually happened in the field. So, for example, the second subscriber set on the two-party line is technically a standard -A set with ring-party selection, but there are mentionings, IIRC, that state for simplicity both stations on the message rate lines may use the same equipment, albeit rewired appropriately for the ring party.
Catalog #9 does state that the 684-BC subset can be used with either manual or dial phones. However, the 203 hand telephone set, which was often connected to a 684-BC (for tip party on message rate 2-party lines), is listed in that same catalog only as a dial model: 203A with a 4HA dial, 203B with a 4HB dial, and 203C with a 4HE dial. So there seems to be some inherent contradiction in the description of the 684-BC, since to date no code has been found for a manual 203.
AT&T Spec 4566 (1926) does show that at that time both manual and dial 50-C and 51-C desk stands could be used with 554-C subsets for the tip party subscriber on two-party selective message rate lines. However, by 1936 (C63.374 Issue 1), the 51-C and 151-C are shown only for dial central offices.
By 1931, 103s (A2, B2, D2) and 203s (B6, D6) were listed only with dials for "two party selective message rate dial stations--party on tip." (C62.301 Issue 2, 6-1-31 Hand Set Mountings, A to E types, Description.) It does appear that by 1931, manual sets wired for tip party identification were no longer available, even if they existed in 1926 or earlier. (No 51-type desk stands have been reported with original manufacture dates after 1930.)
EDIT: Even though there was no code for a manual 203, the 304 model used the same A-B-C-D suffix as the 302s (302s with 2-conductor mounting cords.) So there is a manual 304, coded 304A:
2.05 The 304-type telephone set, the external appearance of
which is the same as the 302 type shown in Figs. 1 and 2,
is used in dial common battery central office areas on the tip-
party station of message rate, automatic ticketing, and auto-
matic message accounting. However, in addition to the dial sets,
a manual 304A set equipped with an apparatus blank is provided
for use at tip-party stations where cutover to dial message-rate
service is contemplated. The dial sets are coded 304B, 304C, and
304D, and all sets are equipped with a 3-conductor mounting
cord.Source: BSP Section C32.502, Issue 8, Oct., 1955
Telephone Sets
302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 309, and 329 Types
Description and Use
In the cited BSP, 302s are used for several classes of service including "2-party Selective Message Rate (Manual and Ring-Party Dial only.)" Manual 304s (304A) are used only where cutover to dial is anticipated.
I found on my disk what appears one of the original Issue 1 BSP sections for the 653-type sets. This was BSP Section C42.601 Issue 1, 1 June 1931 (Station Installation and Maintenance), entitled Anti-Sidetone Subscriber Sets - 433, 633, and 653 Types - Connections. The document divides station sets by manual and dial instruments according to service types.
The 653-BC appears in the dial section only. This does provide more evidence that there was no intention for two-party message rate service on manual exchanges.
The BSP was released at the same time (6-1-31) with the rest of the AST documents.
References for Two-Party Selective, Message Rate Lines, Tip Party:
653BC:
C42.601 Issue 1 can be found in TCI library here:
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/4643-c42-601-i1-jun31-anti-sidetonesubscribersets433-633-653-types-connections
653BC:
C62.232 Issue 2, 4-18-40--not found in TCI library
C62.232 Issue 3, 5-31-45: (adds info on 653CE)
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3490-c63-232-i3-common-battery-wall-set-connections
50-C, 51-C. 553-C:
AT&T Spec 4566, Feb. 1926 Machine Switching, pp. 66-69
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/doc_view/5345-at-t-spec-4566-feb26-machine-switching-stations-t-ocr-r
51-C and 151-C:
C63.374 Issue 1, 3-2-36--not found in TCI library
C63.374 Issue 3, 6-8-45: (adds 151R rewired)
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3484-c63-374-i3-desk-stand-connections-cb
203:
C62.301 Issue 2, 6-1-31, Handset Mountings, A to E Type, Description--not found in TCI library
203:
C63.324 Issue 3, 10-30-36---not found in TCI library
304:
C32.502 Issue 8, Oct. 1955
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3302-c32-502-i8-oct55-tel-sets-302-303-304-305-306-307-309-329-types-tl
Quote from: poplar1 on July 28, 2014, 08:51:28 PM
References for Two-Party Selective, Message Rate Lines, Tip Party:
653BC:
C42.601 Issue 1 can be found in TCI library here:
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/4643-c42-601-i1-jun31-anti-sidetonesubscribersets433-633-653-types-connections
653BC:
C62.232 Issue 2, 4-18-40--not found in TCI library
C62.232 Issue 3, 5-31-45: (adds info on 653CE)
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3490-c63-232-i3-common-battery-wall-set-connections
50-C, 51-C. 553-C:
AT&T Spec 4566, Feb. 1926 Machine Switching, pp. 66-69
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/doc_view/5345-at-t-spec-4566-feb26-machine-switching-stations-t-ocr-r
51-C and 151-C:
C63.374 Issue 1, 3-2-36--not found in TCI library
C63.374 Issue 3, 6-8-45: (adds 151R rewired)
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3484-c63-374-i3-desk-stand-connections-cb
203:
C62.301 Issue 2, 6-1-31, Handset Mountings, A to E Type, Description--not found in TCI library
203:
C63.324 Issue 3, 10-30-36---not found in TCI library
304:
C32.502 Issue 8, Oct. 1955
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3302-c32-502-i8-oct55-tel-sets-302-303-304-305-306-307-309-329-types-tl
thanks Poplar.. useful links ! :)