Is this a early 49 500 set?
It might be.
That dial face was used on 1950 sets too, but earlier that year IIRC.
Quote from: Doug Rose on November 24, 2015, 12:14:08 PM
Is this a early 49 500 set?
The 'curled' OPERATOR label was replaced ca. Dec. 1950, and moved to the outer periphery of the dial.
The office designation SUccasunna did not exist anymore by 1955, I believe, I think by then it was already JUstice. I am actually wondering how long before 1955 Succasunna already had a dial office. It was a very small office at any time, and in the early 50s probably had at most 3000 customers. In 1965, it received the first 1ESS system.
They wouldn't let anyone inspect it ?
The designation Succasunna wasn't that the Pennsylvania area ?
D/P
Quote from: Dan/Panther on November 24, 2015, 01:04:12 PM
They wouldn't let anyone inspect it ?
The designation Succasunna wasn't that the Pennsylvania area ?
D/P
I think the only location in the US with that name is the well-known place in New Jersey:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14504.0
I have a set with curled Operator identifier. The set is from 1950.
Chuck
I was at the show, and I was able to take off the handset caps. both of the elements were dated '49 as was the handset and the caps. The base was also dated '49. As for the case, it had clear plungers which led me to believe that it had been replaced at some time, but the owner told me that the case is dated '49 as well and that apparently at the early stages the phone had clear plungers before the opted for black ones.
Quote from: rotary63 on November 24, 2015, 02:01:32 PM
I was at the show, and I was able to take off the handset caps. both of the elements were dated '49 as was the handset and the caps. The base was also dated '49. As for the case, it had clear plungers which led me to believe that it had been replaced at some time, but the owner told me that the case is dated '49 as well and that apparently at the early stages the phone had clear plungers before the opted for black ones.
That's correct. WE used clear plungers on '49ers, then changed to Bakelite (or possibly hard rubber?), then reverted back to clear in the 1960s.
I suppose it is in the JKL Museum now.
Jim S.
Quote from: rotary63 on November 24, 2015, 02:01:32 PM
I was at the show, and I was able to take off the handset caps. both of the elements were dated '49 as was the handset and the caps. The base was also dated '49. As for the case, it had clear plungers which led me to believe that it had been replaced at some time, but the owner told me that the case is dated '49 as well and that apparently at the early stages the phone had clear plungers before the opted for black ones.
Do you remember if the plungers were curved or flat on top? That was a question that arose when D/P was restoring his set.
Jim
Funny you ask, the first thing I did when I saw that they were clear, was run my finger across them to see if they were smooth on top or had the ridge that the later clear plungers had. They were smooth with no ridge, but they were curved not flat.
Quote from: rotary63 on November 24, 2015, 02:45:00 PM
Funny you ask, the first thing I did when I saw that they were clear, was run my finger across them to see if they were smooth on top or had the ridge that the later clear plungers had. They were smooth with no ridge, but they were curved not flat.
That is probably why it was hard to determine plunger tops from the photos that were found when D/P was rebuilding his set.
{Looks like you need to create new plungers D/P.}
Jim S.
Quote from: Jim S. on November 24, 2015, 02:56:17 PM
Quote from: rotary63 on November 24, 2015, 02:45:00 PM
Funny you ask, the first thing I did when I saw that they were clear, was run my finger across them to see if they were smooth on top or had the ridge that the later clear plungers had. They were smooth with no ridge, but they were curved not flat.
That is probably why it was hard to determine plunger tops from the photos that were found when D/P was rebuilding his set.
{Looks like you need to create new plungers D/P.}
Jim S.
...or use standard clear plungers from a '70s 500, those at least sound relatively the same as the '49 plungers.
Didn't some of the early 500s have a straight Operator and a Z? Or am I thinking of the ones used for field testing?
Quote from: andre_janew on November 24, 2015, 07:38:41 PM
Didn't some of the early 500s have a straight Operator and a Z? Or am I thinking of the ones used for field testing?
D/P's '48er has that dial plate, but I'm not completely sure about any '49 sets. Maybe some of the early '49s used for FT use.
The plungers on my Trial set are clear and flat topped.
What I find a bit confusing is that the 302's had flat top plungers, both black and clear. Why would they choose Rounded top, then revert back to flat top then convert back again. They already had all the tooling in place for flat topped plungers.
So it's Deja Vu all over again.
So the field trial set had clear rounded plungers, then the early 49er also had clear rounded plungers ? When did the clear flat topped plungers appear ?
I went back to my flash drive to dig out some photos of examples we had found during the restoration of the field trail set.
Photo one is the 48 Field trial set with Flat topped plungers, notice how they appear rounded. the next two pgotos are the known 49er at the museum.
It's interesting that most examples APPEAR to have round plungers. I will have to look back at WHY we had decided that flat top plungers would be more period correct ?
Below is a photo of known 49 sets, from the museum in Northern California I believe.
Interesting in the last photo is a clipping from a publication that suggests Field Trial sets for the WE500 were available BY 1948, which means the set could have been ready as early as 1947. If the were ready for testing in 1948, I wonder if any had been dated 1948 ? AFTER ALL, WHY, would they date trial sets 1949, when they quite possibly were built in 1947 ? read photo 4 below. Or at least built in 1948. WHY would they date the 1949 ?
It's always fun to revisit old threads, and maybe get some fresh insights into our thought processes. Maybe we missed the obvious then.
D/P
That clipping suggests to me that Field Trial sets were developed and distributed as early as 1948, THEN the definitive Production model was started into production in 1949. Wouldn't that suggest that NO 1949 sets were actually used as Field Trial sets ? I had to read hat clipping SEVERAL TIMES, TO REALLY LET THE CONTEXT SINK IN, TO COME TO MY CONCLUSION.
I propose that all field trial sets were made and distributed in 1948, maybe a few into early 1949, Then they were pulled from service, as mine suggests by the writing on the bottom examined. Discarded or scraped, then the 1949 production run started out with 1000 sets.
I would like to hear Paul's take on my idea. Don't be kind.
D/P
Quote from: Dan/Panther on November 25, 2015, 03:03:02 PM
The plungers on my Trial set are clear and flat topped.
What I find a bit confusing is that the 302's had flat top plungers, both black and clear. Why would they choose Rounded top, then revert back to flat top then convert back again. They already had all the tooling in place for flat topped plungers.
So it's Deja Vu all over again.
So the field trial set had clear rounded plungers, then the early 49er also had clear rounded plungers ? When did the clear flat topped plungers appear ?
I went back to my flash drive to dig out some photos of examples we had found during the restoration of the field trail set.
It's interesting that most examples APPEAR to have round plungers. I will have to look back at WHY we had decided that flat top plungers would be more period correct ?
Below are some photos of known 49 sets, from the museum in Northern California I believe.
Interesting in the last photo is a clipping from a publication that suggests Field Trial sets for the WE500 were available BY 1948, which means the set could have been ready as early as 1947. If the were ready for testing in 1948, I wonder if any had been dated 1948 ? AFTER ALL, WHY, would they date trial sets 1949, when they quite possibly were built in 1947 ? read photo 4 below. Or at least built in 1948. WHY would they date the 1949 ?
It's always fun to revisit old threads, and maybe get some fresh insights into our thought processes. Maybe we missed the obvious then.
D/P
I don't think the history of the 302 sets impacts the 500 sets. The plungers are very different. The clear 302 plungers were hollow to start and consisted of a second part, a lid, to close the unit. Everything was different with the 500 set, and WECo even built a new plant for mass production,
which opened not until 1950, I think. The small batches of pre-production sets were likely still built at Hawthorne.[PS: I misremembered the opening of Indianapolis, it was
1948, so this may already all have happened there.]
Also, since there are so few examples of the trial sets, I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the type of plungers that were used on all of them. There could well have been multiple types used during trials. This would not be unusual. Perhaps the clear plungers were intended for the color sets already. IIRC, the engineering papers discuss that there were colored 500 sets already in 1949 at the Labs.
Quote from: Dan/Panther on November 25, 2015, 03:32:34 PM
That clipping suggests to me that Field Trial sets were developed and distributed as early as 1948, THEN the definitive Production model was started into production in 1949. Wouldn't that suggest that NO 1949 sets were actually used as Field Trial sets ? I had to read hat clipping SEVERAL TIMES, TO REALLY LET THE CONTEXT SINK IN, TO COME TO MY CONCLUSION.
I propose that all field trial sets were made and distributed in 1948, maybe a few into early 1949, Then they were pulled from service, as mine suggests by the writing on the bottom examined. Discarded or scraped, then the 1949 production run started out with 1000 sets.
I would like to hear Paul's take on my idea. Don't be kind.
D/P
I think the documents that are available show that all sets in 1949 or earlier were trials. These sets were not mass-produced.
No telephone company got any production sets until after May 1950. We have several documents that outline how many sets were available on a quarterly basis.
It appears that the telephone companies were officially informed about the development of the new sets starting in 1947.
Trials were conducted even before 1948. Development documents dated 1947 mention test results from plant trials, primarily on transmission matters, however.
The first available quantities of productions sets was announced to the telephone companies in May 1950. For the second quarter they had only 23,000 sets (500B only) available. For the third quarter they anticipated 49,000 sets, and 93,000 for the last quarter, with the addition of a second type, 501B (20,000).
The clipping and picture is from an article in the June 2010 TCI Singing Wires newsletter. Paul F. wrote the article, I submitted the pictures of a 49-500 at the Seattle Communication Museum. The plungers were clear with round tops.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2689.0
All this time, I've been concerned about what The 49-500 set had for plungers. Then it dawned on me, my set could have had flat top plungers, and they decided to go with round in the production run. My phone really have no comparison.
D/P
For all we know, some of the field test phones could've had black plastic plungers.