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Please help ID this candlestick

Started by cloyd, April 12, 2016, 02:17:58 PM

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cloyd

Thank you all,

I was looking at my WE 151-AL last night and was disconcerted to find no Western Electric markings anywhere, only a 151 on the perch and a 2A/4H WE dial.  Is the rest fake?

Thank you,

Tina
-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Van Gogh -- 1885

unbeldi

#1
No, the parts seem good.
The dial is a bit odd, in that it is marked 4H, but has the contact pile of a 5H, with the W terminal away from the governor.
The screw designations have also not been revised for 4H/5H, and the 2A is left.
This was a very early dial chassis, still having the 2A embossed into the metal. The patent dates are probably around the sides.

Are there no markings on the receiver shell around the cord exit?  The magnet is stamped 75Z as a 144 receiver would have.  75 Ω is the nominal resistance, and the Z indicated the magnetic polarity of the side it was stamped on.

The 635A transmitter assembly looks good, it was the replacement for the earlier 323 and 337 types that had a narrow mouth piece. When you open it further you shall find an F1 transmitter element inside.  The date on it might give you a clue of conversion time. This transmitter became available ca. 1935 and was used usually when a set was upgraded to the anti-sidetone circuit with a 634A or 684A subscriber set.  The perch was stamped with an additional "1" in front of the old designation.  So, originally yours was a 51AL.

rdelius

You also have the ruggidised cap on the receiver note the holes and brass threads

cloyd

#3
Well, OK!
I guess I had it backwards.  I thought the dial was the only WE part.  Turns out, it is the weird part.  It sure sounds like an old clickity-clack dial.  One of the contacts is badly bent.  I was planning to send it to Steve to get it fixed.  What should I ask him to do with the questionable parts?  I added one more picture of the dial for another angle to look at and a picture of a dial that I have as a reference as the last picture.  I'm not sure where I got that picture from. It makes it easier to understand what unbeldi is describing.  I hope it is the correct dial to reference.

A ruggedized cap, huh?  Was this phone maybe used as a public telephone or at a service station?

I was sure that receiver was a replacement!  I couldn't find any markings anywhere and so many of the WECo parts are marked with the company name, date, model etc.  I will double check on the markings around the cord hole but I'm pretty sure there is nothing on it.

It's a shame that it was painted and a shameful paint job at that.  I think gray primer was used though, it's all over the parts.

Thank you for the enlightening input!  I look forward to more.

Tina
-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Van Gogh -- 1885

unbeldi

Quote from: cloyd on April 12, 2016, 07:19:17 PM
A ruggedized cap, huh?  Was this phone maybe used as a public telephone or at a service station?

Probably not.  I don't know when those were made, but I would think that the original version, which had a simple open circle in the center was more prone to chipping as the hard rubber is pretty thin at the edge of that opening.   Here is the original type for comparison.

The dial contacts look like someone less than ideally-skilled 'worked' on it.  If you send it out, I am sure it will come back configured as it should.  Just communicate the problem and state what you expect.


unbeldi

Here is a forum thread that analyzed the markings of the 144 receiver shell around the cord exit hole.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14979.0


Ktownphoneco

The switch springs on the back of the dial are "I believe" a refurbishment, and a combination of type 2 springs and the later type 5 springs.    There's 1 additional metal spacer, and 2 additional fiber insulators.      When I first saw this spring switch set up, I thought "someone has been playing", but I've now 2 dials with this spring stack, and a separate set of unattached springs that I found in the bottom of a box of dials that I bought.
I've examined the springs carefully, and all three look like they've been assembled and untouched for a long time.      The two I have mounted on dials, are both on 2 / 4 conversion dials.   One is the earlier patents on the side, and the other is a later type 2, with the patent dates on the back of the dial.
The dial in the picture I've attached, shows some sort of code on the back, "12471".     Some of you with more knowledge of refurbishing / regional shop codes might know what it means.    It may be a date code, but it's rather unlikely it's Dec. 4 1971, or 12 Apr 1971, but it may be Dec-47, and the 1 signifies an update code. 

Sorry Tina, I don't want to sidetrack your questions, but the "odd ball" switch springs came up, and I thought I'd add this information.

Jeff Lamb   

poplar1

#7
This was originally the earliest version of the 2A dial, with no patent dates, before the two types Jeff mentioned (patent dates on rim, then patent dates on back). Notice that "2A" is stamped in the metal, next to the governor. There would have been no marking on the original finger stop. When these dials were converted to 4H, they usually had the "2A"  x'ed out (and, of course, internally mounted finger stop added, contact springs swapped out).

Is there a bit of red paint over the original "W" terminal, next to BB? Normally, if the dial had been converted from 2A to 4H in the WE shop, the original W would have been crossed out, and a new "R" in vermilion paint added -- as with the pictured 4H dial with the 1247T (?) rebuild date. Early shop conversions used standard 4H pileup, with new W next to governor.  Later conversions had twin contacts, like the 5H, and the W spring could  be straight or with two offsets. On these later pileups, the W was next to Y, as on a 5H dial. (I code these 2>4>5 ISD  (or OSD or, here, ND (no dates)) in my notes; but they are still 2A>4H with twin contacts.)

Finding WE shop conversions, and even refurbished phones, may be less collectible to some than matching dates phones, but here is a great example of finding an early 20s part (with 2A on the back) on a phone probably converted between 1932 and 1947. Getting those brass finger wheels and 4H dials off broken $20 302s, and back where they belong on 202s,  is one of my favorite things to do. "Conversions" by the Western Electric repair shops include otherwise non-existent models: 151-AL, 5302G, 634Aand 495BP subsets, 2554 BMG  CONV (using a 554 telephone set mounting). These are some of my favorites.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Ktownphoneco

Poplar 1, thank you for that dial information.     I looked at Tina's picture of the dial, and had the same thoughts.     It looked like there was a "hint" of vermilion ink where the "W" was stamped on the type 2's, so I opened the photo in the software program I use for pictures.     I played with the brightness settings, gamma adjustment and added a ridiculous amount of color saturation, and the red "R" became fairly visible, as indicated in the attached picture.

Jeff Lamb


poplar1

                 3. USE

                     3.01.  The improved cap and lock ring is intended for use
                                principally on business, business P.B.X. and public
             telephone stations to replace broken receiver caps. It may also
             be used at other stations as required by local instructions.

BSP C35.201, Issue 2, 4-2-37
RECEIVERS ---  NO.  144
IMPROVED CAP AND LOCK RING
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

Previously already in 1934:

BSP C35.201 i1 340129, Receivers; No. 144—Equipped with Improved Bakelite Cap and Lock Ring

poplar1

#11
Probably so. Tina seems to have guessed right, although her definition of "public" may differ from the BSP use of "public."
In Issue 2, "the cap is of phenol plastic reinforced by a threaded brass ring to reduce breakage." In Issue 1, it is "bakelite" reinforced by a brass ring.


Quote from: unbeldi on April 12, 2016, 08:06:25 PM
Probably not.  I don't know when those were made, but I would think that the original version, which had a simple open circle in the center was more prone to chipping as the hard rubber is pretty thin at the edge of that opening.   Here is the original type for comparison.

Quote from: cloyd on April 12, 2016, 07:19:17 PM

A ruggedized cap, huh?  Was this phone maybe used as a public telephone or at a service station?

I was sure that receiver was a replacement!  I couldn't find any markings anywhere and so many of the WECo parts are marked with the company name, date, model etc.  I will double check on the markings around the cord hole but I'm pretty sure there is nothing on it.

Tina
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

cloyd

#12
I found no markings around the cord hole on the receiver.

Ktownphoneco, I appreciate your input because I need to know what to have done when I send the dial away for repair.  If this arrangement was generally used, I will keep it.  My only concern is getting it wired correctly if it is different than the typical 4H dial.  I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

By "public" I meant a phone for customer use in a bar or restaurant etc.  By "service station" I meant gas station.  Sorry, I'm not up on Telco lingo.

I was considering buying a new 5-conductor wiring harness from Wistful Vista Telephone Co.  They are closing their business!

Tina
-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Van Gogh -- 1885

poplar1

When using a 2H, 4H, 5H dial (or in your case a 2A converted to 4H) on a desk stand (candlestick), you should strap the BB and R terminals together. (The R terminal, though the paint is about gone, is to the right of BB on your dial). That makes the H dial equivalent to the original 2A.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.