Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => Collector's Corner => Topic started by: Brinybay on November 02, 2015, 12:13:54 PM

Title: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Brinybay on November 02, 2015, 12:13:54 PM
Splitting this off my find of OPS that was in the Flea Market/Yard Sale board. 

I joined the ranks of RR phone owners.  I found a Type 60 AE the other day in a box of other phones at an antique store.  I had no idea what exactly it was at first.  Thanks to Google, it didn't take long to find it in a GTE/AE catalog from October 1975, pg 17.  I'm happy to know that it wasn't "frankened" with modern parts.  The manufacture date (Feb 20, 1969) confused me at first because except for the handset, it's overall appearance resembles phones from the 30s era.  I think it's missing the cover for the back of the magneto though.  I'm interested in knowing how these things were used, such as were they dedicated for RR communication line only, or did they function for outside lines as well?  Any RR enthusiasts out there?  I'm not particularly a RR buff, just old phones of almost any sort.  It would be interesting to see what other phones collectors have that were dedicated for RR use. 
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 02, 2015, 01:04:06 PM
The induction coil in your box looks, if not identical, at least very similar to the induction coil in an Automatic Electric RR subset that I have, which was used to connect a scissor-type transmitter arm, or a desk stand, to RR lines.

Here is a view of the induction coil, seen just behind the condenser in the front.  It is mounted in one of those small Type 32 Bakelite extension boxes and has a push-to-talk button.  The boxes already showed up the AE catalogs in the 1930s, for various applications, including as relay boxes, small ringers, and local extensions.

I have not found much RR equipment documentation for AE stuff either, and I am always looking.  Railroad telephone technology changed very slowly, and what would be considered archaic systems still existed in abundance in many places.  A friend told me that in some old subway station in NYC scissor-type transmitter arms could be observed in some old control booths even in the 1990s, albeit probably unused by then.   I have a WECo 1348D  RR transmitter arm for local battery service that was still refurbished with new parts (bull-dog transmitter) in 1955. Same situation in Europe. I have a 1962 Yugoslavian (! Tito era) magneto phone in mint condition, never used apparently, which was a copy of a 1933 German local battery telephone, the OB33.  Even in Germany, those were still to be observed in the field until the 1990s, I was told or read somewhere.

There is some good documentation, in the TCI library and elsewhere, about the Western Electric RR systems.  The technology didn't change much over the years.  A 501A subset pretty much was the same in 1949 as it was in 1924, albeit having been renamed as 501E, IIRC.  I think they changed the paint. :-)
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 02, 2015, 01:16:00 PM
Was the induction coil in your set completely cut or disconnected from the rest of the wiring?
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 02, 2015, 01:27:27 PM
I found a better picture of my induction coil with the number stamp on it.
Does yours have any identification?
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Brinybay on November 02, 2015, 06:56:51 PM
Was the induction coil in your set completely cut or disconnected from the rest of the wiring?

No, it's still attached.

I found a better picture of my induction coil with the number stamp on it.
Does yours have any identification?

Yes, see pic. 
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 02, 2015, 07:49:35 PM
Oh, now I see the geometry of the box.  The coil is on the wall side of the base plate and the wires disappear through the hole.


The ringer is a straight-line ringer and the has right size condenser for that, 0.7 µF.
So, they isolated the high-voltage carrying parts to be under the base plate toward the wall.  So, I suspect the condenser there is in front of the coil in the incoming line.  Is it a  0.25 or 0.5 µF  unit?

Hmm, but this has a hand generator, so it was not installed directly on the line.  I think this is a siding station set, and the generator is to call the main office at the station over a local line.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Brinybay on November 02, 2015, 08:49:26 PM
Oh, now I see the geometry of the box.  The coil is on the wall side of the base plate and the wires disappear through the hole.

The ringer is a straight-line ringer and the has right size condenser for that, 0.7 µF.
So, they isolated the high-voltage carrying parts to be under the base plate toward the wall.  So, I suspect the condenser there is in front of the coil in the incoming line.  Is it a  0.25 or 0.5 µF  unit?

Hmm, but this has a hand generator, so it was not installed directly on the line.  I think this is a siding station set, and the generator is to call the main office at the station over a local line.

Correct about the siding station, it says in the catalog page that these were to be installed in siding booths.

You must be referring to this part on the back?

Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 03, 2015, 06:01:27 PM
Yes, that's a 0.5 µF capacitor.   It is too small to block DC from a receiver as in the typical induction coil telephone, and AE usually used enormously large caps for that, anyways.   So, how is it used?   It is also tested to 1000 V break down voltage, so it must be sitting in front of the coil on the line.  I have an idea for a circuit of this box since I know the construction of my coil.

Will you be tracing the wiring of this phone?
Does the handset have a push button in the handle?
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 03, 2015, 06:21:17 PM
stub posted a similar phone, labeled as L-653   here (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=9897.msg105385#msg105385)

By the diagram, that has a standard induction coil and also a 0.5 µF capacitor.   However, the ringing cap is 2 µF !

Nope, strike that about the induction coil, that coil is a rail road coil too, I am judging it by the high DC resistance ratio from primary to line-side.

Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 03, 2015, 08:03:57 PM
Ok, here is a circuit diagram.

All I had to do is expand the diagram of my subset with the ringer and the generator and add/rearrange the switches.
The result is the circuit of AE FORM D-53983 as displayed in Stub's phone.

The difference to your phone we have to work out, but I expect them to be minimal.  We know that the ringing capacitor is 0.7 µF, not 2. I suspect that stub's phone used low impedance ringer.

In your handset should be push-to-talk switch which enables the transmitter and introduces a resistor into the receiver path, so that audio can still be received.  This is a common feature on way station sets.  Often I have seen the resistor to be 1500 ohms, here it is 700 Ω.

From the diagram we see that the telephone itself, i.e. the audio circuitry for the transmitter and the receiver, is completely isolated from the line.  The line connects across a high-impedance winding, protected with the 0.5 µF capacitor, which protects up to 1000 V.

The hook switch, the HS switches in the diagram,  switches the line from the ringer to the induction coil and also turns on the local battery current to the transmitter.  Thus the transmitter is powered and connected to the low-impedance (2 ohms) primary winding of the induction coil, when the push-to-talk button on the handset is also pressed.  The signal is transformed outward to the line side secondary of 150 ohms DC resistance.  This winding likely has an extremely high impedance at voice frequencies, my guess is 10,000 ohms or more.

The receiver is driven from the line to an 11 ohm (DC) winding.

The ringing bridge is typical, nothing special to mention, except that it is disconnected when the phone is off-hook, and the generator is simply switched onto the line when operated by its built-in switch, which normally shunts the generator.

From all this we see that the principles of this phone are quite different than our garden-variety home telephones.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Brinybay on November 07, 2015, 01:23:48 PM

Will you be tracing the wiring of this phone?

No, I don't do tracing.  I take macro pics of wiring and refer to those if I need to.  Lacking that, I use the "by guess and by golly" method of trouble-shooting.

Does the handset have a push button in the handle?

Yes.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Brinybay on November 07, 2015, 01:36:11 PM
Ok, here is a circuit diagram.

All I had to do is expand the diagram of my subset with the ringer and the generator and add/rearrange the switches.
The result is the circuit of AE FORM D-53983 as displayed in Stub's phone.

The difference to your phone we have to work out, but I expect them to be minimal.  We know that the ringing capacitor is 0.7 µF, not 2. I suspect that stub's phone used low impedance ringer.

In your handset should be push-to-talk switch which enables the transmitter and introduces a resistor into the receiver path, so that audio can still be received.  This is a common feature on way station sets.  Often I have seen the resistor to be 1500 ohms, here it is 700 Ω.

From the diagram we see that the telephone itself, i.e. the audio circuitry for the transmitter and the receiver, is completely isolated from the line.  The line connects across a high-impedance winding, protected with the 0.5 µF capacitor, which protects up to 1000 V.

The hook switch, the HS switches in the diagram,  switches the line from the ringer to the induction coil and also turns on the local battery current to the transmitter.  Thus the transmitter is powered and connected to the low-impedance (2 ohms) primary winding of the induction coil, when the push-to-talk button on the handset is also pressed.  The signal is transformed outward to the line side secondary of 150 ohms DC resistance.  This winding likely has an extremely high impedance at voice frequencies, my guess is 10,000 ohms or more.

The receiver is driven from the line to an 11 ohm (DC) winding.

The ringing bridge is typical, nothing special to mention, except that it is disconnected when the phone is off-hook, and the generator is simply switched onto the line when operated by its built-in switch, which normally shunts the generator.

From all this we see that the principles of this phone are quite different than our garden-variety home telephones.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the diagram and the detailed analysis.  I'm sorry that I'm not able to converse with you about the electronic details, I'm not educated in electronics.  My wife and I have been considering getting a shed for me to use as a work shop, and it would be fun to have a couple of magneto phones set up between the house and the shed so we could "ring" each other when needed, but I would only need very simple instructions and how to do that, e.g. which wire goes where and what kind of magneto phones would be compatible.  I'm not even sure this one works, so some simple instructions on how to test it would be nice.

Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 07, 2015, 02:10:06 PM
Hi again.

I think setting up a private magneto line is a great project, and sure to be fun.

While I haven't taken measurements on your phone or induction coil, clearly, to be certain, however I do think that to make this phone work with another phone, you're going to have to get another one like it, or another railway phone that uses similar technology.  It could be another AE model or a WECo model, I think they would be compatible.  AE explicitly made RR equipment compatible with WECo systems.  That little subset I showed, in fact, was intended to be used with a WECo transmitter arm (1148D).

Yours is not a normal magneto phone and won't work properly with those for non-railroad use. The audio reception will be extremely weak both ways, unusable.  The induction coil has a very high impedance of several thousand ohms, while a standard "home" telephone set only has an impedance of several hundred.  So when hooked up together there is a gross mismatch with a very poor transmission efficiency.  For best efficiency the impedance at the source and destination should be about equal. For standard phones this is typically between 600 ohms and 900 ohms.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 07, 2015, 07:04:32 PM
The Type 60 telephones are interesting and were made over an extended period. The earliest I have seen looked like an AE 3 with a magneto but I am not sure it was called a Type 60 at that time. The type like Brinybay's were updated slowly with newer and newer components like bell, handset and IC.

There are some with dials and at least some of those use simplex dialling and some with hook latches. Clearly many were used on party line circuits. The PPT button (which also changed over time) was less to conserve battery power and more to cut down on local noise feeding into the transmitter and interfering with the received speech.

I have attached some pictures of:
1. A later PTT button
2. The rear of an AE 65 - there is no additional cover
3. An example circuit.

Sorry, I couldn't find a picture of a hook latch. I have such a phone but it is stored and not easy to access for the time being.

Jack

Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 08, 2015, 08:29:23 AM
The Type 60 telephones are interesting and were made over an extended period. The earliest I have seen looked like an AE 3 with a magneto but I am not sure it was called a Type 60 at that time. The type like Brinybay's were updated slowly with newer and newer components like bell, handset and IC.

There are some with dials and at least some of those use simplex dialling and some with hook latches. Clearly many were used on party line circuits. The PPT button (which also changed over time) was less to conserve battery power and more to cut down on local noise feeding into the transmitter and interfering with the received speech.

I have attached some pictures of:
1. A later PTT button
2. The rear of an AE 65 - there is no additional cover
3. An example circuit.

Sorry, I couldn't find a picture of a hook latch. I have such a phone but it is stored and not easy to access for the time being.

Jack

Jack, I think you are confusing this phone with others, similar ones that were for standard telephone service.
The pushbutton in the siding station phone had a slightly different function in this phone.  It is not a transmitter cut-out button, but a push-to-talk switch which closes the transmitter circuit when pushed, in conjunction with the hookswitch, and inserts a resistor into the receiver circuit.  This is not to lower noise, but to enable the user to be able to hear the dispatcher even while talking but at reduced volume. The dispatcher sat in an booth office and didn't produce much noise. Noise would come from siding stations, therefore the handset has the transmitter normally cut off when off-hook, until the button was pushed.

The civilian versions of the phone had a completely different circuit, much like the AE40, an AST circuit.


PS: Thanks for posting the diagram.  If you compare it you will find that it is the same circuit as the one I drew earlier in the thread.  Better yet, it probably is the correct diagram also for Brinybay's phone, because it contains the same 0.7 µF capacitor for the ringing bridge.  I think the difference is simply that both phones use a high impedance ringer, w/r/t the 2 µF capacitor in older sets with low-impedance ringers.

The DC resistances of the induction coil windings printed on your diagram are exactly the same as on my AE RR subset. 144 Ω / 3.3 Ω / 14 Ω are the values, so this is the exact same coil and replaced the older coil I drew in the diagram.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 08, 2015, 09:05:04 AM
Jack, I think you are confusing this phone with others, similar ones that were for standard telephone service.

I may have the purpose of the PTT wrong but I am otherwise talking about Type 60 telephones.

I have to admit that I didn't look vary hard at the PTT - it was too easy to assume that it was being used in a noisy environment.

Jack

Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 08, 2015, 09:16:45 AM
Jack, I think you are confusing this phone with others, similar ones that were for standard telephone service.

I may have the purpose of the PTT wrong but I am otherwise talking about Type 60 telephones.

I have to admit that I didn't look vary hard at the PTT - it was too easy to assume that it was being used in a noisy environment.

Jack

The manner in which the telephone makers, AE, WE, KSS&S etc, drew their circuits certainly strongly discourages one from trying to understand the function.

I know they made various versions of this phone for RR and civilian telephone systems, and it is confusing which and when what was made.  Do you know of a AE RR catalog or educational document?   AE made nice training documents for the switching systems, but for RR system?
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 08, 2015, 09:51:05 AM
Here is Jack's diagram with a bit of digital work for easier reference.

Sometimes it's nicer to see these in their aged, yellow version, included too, perhaps useful for more sophisticated color processing, than what I did quickly.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 08, 2015, 05:31:45 PM
I know they made various versions of this phone for RR and civilian telephone systems, and it is confusing which and when what was made.

Do you mean that there were Type 60 telephones for civilian use?

The images of the Type 60 (including the circuit) I posted earlier are of mine and it has a hook latch. I have seen the simplex dialling version in print but I don't have one. Ralph Meyer writes of one in his book (2nd Ed, p156).

Prior to the use of the code '60' is is much harder to distinguish railroad and other telephones. There are many AE telephones that don't appear in the general catalogues - anything special and many things magneto.

Quote
Do you know of a AE RR catalog or educational document?   AE made nice training documents for the switching systems, but for RR system?

No, like you I have been looking but without success. There is very little information about Type 60 and other special purpose telephones. It was only relatively recently that they even appeared in general catalogues. I don't recall Hershey, Smith or Campbell writing outside of the normal telephone network. I should check again - just in case.

If I come across something I'll certainly post it.

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 08, 2015, 05:46:13 PM
I know they made various versions of this phone for RR and civilian telephone systems, and it is confusing which and when what was made.

Do you mean that there were Type 60 telephones for civilian use?

The images of the Type 60 (including the circuit) I posted earlier are of mine and it has a hook latch. I have seen the simplex dialling version in print but I don't have one. Ralph Meyer writes of one in his book (2nd Ed, p156).

Prior to the use of the code '60' is is much harder to distinguish railroad and other telephones. There are many AE telephones that don't appear in the general catalogues - anything special and many things magneto.

Quote
Do you know of a AE RR catalog or educational document?   AE made nice training documents for the switching systems, but for RR system?

No, like you I have been looking but without success. There is very little information about Type 60 and other special purpose telephones. It was only relatively recently that they even appeared in general catalogues. I don't recall Hershey, Smith or Campbell writing outside of the normal telephone network. I should check again - just in case.

If I come across something I'll certainly post it.

Regards
Jack

I also have searched in the classic telephony handbooks, very little to nothing...

Well, perhaps I should not have called the other versions "civilian", being a stickler for correct language and terminology myself.  They may have not been installed in non-railroad environments.  What I did mean is that some versions have a 'normal' circuit with 'normal' impedance standards, to say, that they are interoperable with a civilian telephone central office.  These have the AST circuit of the AE Type 40 desk set.  I don't know for sure that they were actually labeled as a Type 60, rather than perhaps some type 4x.

I will post more on this, and I think I will bring that thread back to life.

PS: I think it may be some version of the No. 44 wall set, which looks rather much the same.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 08, 2015, 06:20:35 PM
Well, perhaps I should not have called the other versions "civilian", being a stickler for correct language and terminology myself.

Using the correct terminology is not always easy. What is correct Bell nomenclature is not necessarily correct GPO, PMG, PTT, RTT, Reichpost & etc nomenclature. There are even differences in terminology (official not colloquial) between the former East and West Germany.

Quote
They may have not been installed in non-railroad environments.  What I did mean is that some versions have a 'normal' circuit with 'normal' impedance standards, to say, that they are interoperable with a civilian telephone central office.  These have the AST circuit of the AE Type 40 desk set.  I don't know for sure that they were actually labeled as a Type 60, rather than perhaps some type 4x.

I haven't seen any non railway type 60 telephones but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. I'd be surprised if all railways in the USA use the same technology. I think I have only seen Type 60 telephones in CAT TA-75 and although they exist(ed), there are no simplex dialling versions there.

Anyway, seeking more information...

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 08, 2015, 06:35:28 PM
Well, perhaps I should not have called the other versions "civilian", being a stickler for correct language and terminology myself.

Using the correct terminology is not always easy. What is correct Bell nomenclature is not necessarily correct GPO, PMG, PTT, RTT, Reichpost & etc nomenclature. There are even differences in terminology (official not colloquial) between the former East and West Germany.
Agreed.
Quote

Quote
They may have not been installed in non-railroad environments.  What I did mean is that some versions have a 'normal' circuit with 'normal' impedance standards, to say, that they are interoperable with a civilian telephone central office.  These have the AST circuit of the AE Type 40 desk set.  I don't know for sure that they were actually labeled as a Type 60, rather than perhaps some type 4x.

I haven't seen any non railway type 60 telephones but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. I'd be surprised if all railways in the USA use the same technology. I think I have only seen Type 60 telephones in CAT TA-75 and although they exist(ed), there are no simplex dialling versions there.

Anyway, seeking more information...

Regards
Jack

I don't think these Type 60 phones for railroads could possibly have been issued with a dial.  First of all they are not common battery telephones.  Railway systems used selectors and selector keys for signaling, and they operated at voltages up to 400 V DC, or less for short lines.   This is reason that the induction coil had a capacitor in series on the line side, and the ringer was also protected with a separate capacitor.  However, these siding station sets apparently didn't use selectors in front of the ringers, but were rung with AC sent into the loop, and from the station to the dispatcher office, so there probably was no DC on these loops.

Some documentation of railroad practice would be nice.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 08, 2015, 07:04:57 PM
I don't think these Type 60 phones for railroads could possibly have been issued with a dial.  First of all they are not common battery telephones. 

Simplex dialling telephones aren't conventional CB telephones either. Still, I can't say what was or was not without more information and as I noted, I don't know if all USA railroads used the same technology.

Thanks for the insights. I look forward to the discovery of the missing reference manuals.

Regards
Jack


Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 08, 2015, 07:16:54 PM
I don't think these Type 60 phones for railroads could possibly have been issued with a dial.  First of all they are not common battery telephones. 

Simplex dialling telephones aren't conventional CB telephones either. Still, I can't say what was or was not without more information and as I noted, I don't know if all USA railroads used the same technology.

Thanks for the insights. I look forward to the discovery of the missing reference manuals.

Regards
Jack

I am wondering whether Automatic Electric called this wall set the Type 60 to indicate its compatibility with the Western Electric Type 60 rail dispatching systems, that had many pieces with the number 60 as designation,  60AP selector, 160, ...


[PS:  hmm,   I am not sure their system had the type number 60, actually.... but many parts did.]
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: G-Man on November 08, 2015, 10:43:41 PM
Hello Jack-
Perhaps this jpg will be of use regarding Type-60 magneto telephone sets.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 08, 2015, 11:08:22 PM
Hello Jack-
Perhaps this jpg will be of use regarding Type-60 magneto telephone sets.

Thanks G-Man. It seems that AE think the button is at least partly for noise reduction. The other part is efficiency which I guess also comes down to the signal-to-noise ratio.

Party line operation is specifically mentioned and yet the phone shown doesn't seem to have a hook latch. Of course the privacy aspect has a different priority in a closed system such as a railway or other utility. Dialling does too for that matter - the railway probably has a PAX but there may not be any need for a siding phone to access it. I expect it is different with different utilities.

So, that's more documentation that I had before - perhaps more will surface.

Where is that page from G-Man?

Thanks again
Jack


Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: G-Man on November 08, 2015, 11:18:55 PM
At one point, our telephone company briefly maintained Southern Pacific railroad telephone systems.
 
If, on the rare occasion, a r.o.w. magneto station needed to be interconnected with the company’s Western Electric 701 pabx or “City” line, it was switched to the pbx switchboard by the dispatcher.
 
Off-hand, I don’t recall what document this entry came from.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 08, 2015, 11:23:57 PM
I found a grubby AE 60 circuit that includes a dial - but not the simplex version.

I saw a long list of Type 60 variations somewhere - if only I could remember where...

Jack
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 09, 2015, 08:48:58 AM
I found a grubby AE 60 circuit that includes a dial - but not the simplex version.

I saw a long list of Type 60 variations somewhere - if only I could remember where...

Jack

Jack, this is what I called the "civilian" version.   But, after all this discussion, I am more convinced that it was not called a model 60 at all.  This circuit is identical to the AE 40 and 50 in fact, with the addition of the generator and an option to run the transmitter from a local battery.  I think this is a variety of the model 44.  The circuit has really nothing in common with the Type 60 (other than having a transmitter and receiver).


PS: The diagram originated in this topic (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10907.0).  It is the same one that I mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 09, 2015, 05:55:45 PM
Jack, this is what I called the "civilian" version.   But, after all this discussion, I am more convinced that it was not called a model 60 at all.

I didn't notice that the ID number had been edited (nor did I realise where it had come from - sorry about that). If it was originally "65" is is a Type 60 but as I noted earlier, there were quite a few Type 60 variations - not all of them specifically railway siding telephones. I guess a valid question is "what is a Type 60?", it may be more than just a railway siding telephone.

I realise that there is a Type 44 but I have not seen any variations of that - it is just a Type 50 in a different enclosure. It was available in manual or auto with some handset options. Introduced about 1944 and in service for about a decade - apparently superseded by the AE 90.

Additional catalogues would help...

Jack
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: G-Man on November 09, 2015, 06:52:13 PM
Jack, the Automatic Electric catalogs show other “stock” instruments rearranged for local-battery service and reclassified for railroad service. They still retained their original model numbers, such as, types-80 and 183; the “L” ordering codes were what differentiated them from their look-alike "standard" models.
 
 I suspect that it is possible another version of the type-60 also existed for use on pstn subscriber lines.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 09, 2015, 07:22:31 PM
G-Man, that is quite possible but I think there are still more Type 60 "special" phones to be found such as the one using simplex dialling.

I am told that simplex dialling was used by utilities such as railways in the US. I haven't seen AE simplex dialling telephones used in Canada or NZ on rural party lines or anywhere else.

Anyway, I can't insist that such phones exist without evidence so I'll just have to wait.

Jack
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 09, 2015, 08:25:49 PM
G-Man, that is quite possible but I think there are still more Type 60 "special" phones to be found such as the one using simplex dialling.

I am told that simplex dialling was used by utilities such as railways in the US. I haven't seen AE simplex dialling telephones used in Canada or NZ on rural party lines or anywhere else.

Anyway, I can't insist that such phones exist without evidence so I'll just have to wait.

Jack

My impression has been that simplex dialing was used primarily on rural lines in Canada, but I seemed to recall it has also been linked to Australia, and New Zealand (I'll let you be the expert voice on that).  Just about the only catalogs that mention it, IIRC, are the Northern Electric catalogs.  I seem to recall the N717AP and CG sets, and their 500-type successors.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 09, 2015, 09:55:23 PM
My impression has been that simplex dialing was used primarily on rural lines in Canada, but I seemed to recall it has also been linked to Australia, and New Zealand (I'll let you be the expert voice on that).  Just about the only catalogs that mention it, IIRC, are the Northern Electric catalogs.  I seem to recall the N717AP and CG sets, and their 500-type successors.

Canada and New Zealand made extensive use of simplex dialling on rural party lines. In Australia simplex dialling was used on 4-10 auto party lines but it was not very common.

The only reference books that deal with simplex dialling that I have seen are authored by AE people and I am sure that AE made such phones. If ever I (re)discover some proper evidence I'll post it. Until then I'll just have to keep my eyes open.

Jack
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 10, 2015, 02:43:05 AM
Here is a simplex dialling phone with hook-latch.

Unfortunately there is no circuit diagram.

Hmm - the images failed a security check.

Edit: Images added in a PDF.

Jack

Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: G-Man on November 10, 2015, 07:22:48 AM
Jack, in a thread from 2012, canuckphoneguy commented on an instrument he saw during a visit to Wayne, Alberta. He did not realize its significance; it is an Ericsson originally manufactured for combination magneto/simplex dialing. I identified it as such, in another thread.
 
This system was used especially in the prairie provinces of Canada and other extremely remote locations.
 
Northern Electric also manufactured several models arranged for this type of service, including some in the 500-set category. Practices and schematics for them and other manufacturers are in the TCI Library.
 
While there may have been a few subscriber simplex dialing systems in the U.S. in the early ‘30s, it never really caught on. While AECo may have also manufactured some sets, it most likely would have been to serve a very small niche market.
 
Because of the way their networks were configured, most railroads in the U.S. likely did not adopt it on a wide scale, if at all. If a long line needed to connect to an inner-office or  outside line, one of their many pbx switchboards would have been able to handle the scant traffic for such connections.
 This particular telephone (the Wayne, Alberta, Ericsson) appears to have been converted over to standard loop-dialing and the crank removed, once the exchange serving Wayne was cut-over.
 
 I posted the instructions on how to place a call on it, in an earlier thread…
 
If you were calling another party on your own line, you simply turned the crank on the magneto. canuckphoneguy posted photos of one that he came across during a road trip last August.  The crank had been removed when the converted to fully automatic service.

Here is a link to his thread- http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7391.0 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7391.0)
 
 
Here are the instructions to the subscribers as posted on its number card:

LIFT HANDSET AND LISTEN
IF LINE IS FREE PRESS CALL BUTTON
PARTY CALL: TURN HANDLE FOR CODE RING
CENTRAL CALL: DIAL CENTRAL NUMBER
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: G-Man on November 10, 2015, 07:25:20 AM
Jack, in a thread from 2012, canuckphoneguy commented on an instrument he saw during a visit to Wayne, Alberta. He did not realize its significance; it is an Ericsson originally manufactured for combination magneto/simplex dialing. I identified it as such, in another thread.
 
This system was used especially in the prairie provinces of Canada and other extremely remote locations.
 
Northern Electric also manufactured several models arranged for this type of service, including some in the 500-set category. Practices and schematics for them and other manufacturers are in the TCI Library.
 
While there may have been a few subscriber simplex dialing systems in the U.S. in the early ‘30s, it never really caught on. While AECo may have also manufactured some sets, it most likely would have been to serve a very small niche market.
 
Because of the way their networks were configured, most railroads in the U.S. likely did not adopt it on a wide scale, if at all. If a long line (magneto) needed to connect to an inner-office or  outside line, one of their many pbx switchboards would have been able to handle the scant traffic for such connections.

 This particular telephone (the Wayne, Alberta, Ericsson) appears to have been converted over to standard loop-dialing and the crank removed, once the exchange serving Wayne was cut-over.
 
 I posted the instructions on how to place a call on it, in an earlier thread…
 
If you were calling another party on your own line, you simply turned the crank on the magneto.canuckphoneguy posted photos of one that he came across during a road trip last August.  The crank had been removed when the converted to fully automatic service.
 
 Here is a link to his thread- http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7391.0 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7391.0)
 
 
Here are the instructions to the subscribers as posted on its number card:
 
 LIFT HANDSET AND LISTEN
 IF LINE IS FREE PRESS CALL BUTTON
 PARTY CALL: TURN HANDLE FOR CODE RING
 CENTRAL CALL: DIAL CENTRAL NUMBER
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: G-Man on November 10, 2015, 07:37:27 AM
Speaking of Automatic Electric, here is another thread concerning an A.E./Amercian Electric deskstand and subset arranged for combination magneto/simplex dialing:
 
Here's an example of a dial and crank set from AE (even if the phone is disconnected from the subset both belong originally together):
Yes, I was able to identify your instrument as being capable of hybrid signaling back in Febuary-
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=8723.0 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=8723.0)
G-Man
Re: AE 21 candlestick wiring problem
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 06:08:13 AM »
 
Your ringer box and telephone set was not intended for use on standard loop dialing lines.
Notice that the dial is connected to ground through the switchook, with the other side going to both sides of the line through the center tap of the ringer coils.
As with a couple of other instruments that have surfaced on the list lately, yours was used on a composite/simplex dialing line that allowed for both magneto and automatic signaling.
Rural telephone companies located mostly in Canada were the primary users of these types of sets.

G-Man
Re: AE 21 candlestick wiring problem« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 06:11:58 AM »

I forgot to add that your instrument and magneto subset is probably worth much more than it being hacked into a more common loop dial instrument.

Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: G-Man on November 10, 2015, 07:40:30 AM
Here is a link describing the Ericsson instruments:
http://www.britishtelephones.com/ericsson/n2122.htm (http://www.britishtelephones.com/ericsson/n2122.htm)
 
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 10, 2015, 09:03:23 AM
Thanks G-Man.

I am quite familiar with the use of simplex dialling sets in Canada and New Zealand and similar sets were used in Australia. I have examples of British Ericsson sets that were used in Canada and NZ and NE sets that were used in Canada. I also have an AE set which I believe to be a Type 60 that was used in the USA but I don't know by whom - I imaging a utility, possibly a railway.

The AE 21 was an interesting find - a "special"; I would have liked that. I imagine it has been "converted" by now. I found an AE step base (sorry, no official name) version on eBay some time ago but someone with much deeper pockets than I took that one home.

I haven't seen AE simplex dialling sets used outside of the USA so I assume they were used in the USA. I just don't know where they were used or by whom.

I tried to post pictures of my "Type 60" simplex dialling set earlier but the pictures evidently contain a security hazard. I have another Type 60 of the more usual configuration. I have Type 44 sets as well but they are quite different.

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: G-Man on November 10, 2015, 09:41:44 AM
As Bruce Crawford and others have indicated through the years, simplex dialing never really caught on in the U.S. Part of the reason being that special line equipment would have been needed in the central office, and since there would have been a lower demand, the instruments also would have been more expensive.
 
Obviously they were used in the U.S. for some specialized applications, but again, the demand would have been low.
 
Also, until the R.E.A. loan program was instituted in the early 1950s, rural automatic dial systems were out numbered by magneto and manual exchanges; the annual Telephony Yearbooks bears this out.
 
Magneto exchanges were much less expensive than dial and were much more capable of coping with the  long-length, out of spec outside plant that was then prevalent in most rural areas.
 
Canada, on the other hand, has much larger expanses of territory with much lower numbers of residents. The government subsidized telcos were mandated to serve these remote inhabitants; consequently, higher cost was less of an issue.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 10, 2015, 06:05:44 PM
Cost was always an issue here as elsewhere and the trade-off between cost and equal access is always a thorny issue. Economists are well able to calculate the cost of provision per subscriber but a cost benefit analysis involves costing social issues and government policy; something that is both emotive and illusive to this day.

There were not many auto party lines in Australia and those that existed often served small communities that would normally be served by a manual exchange had there been an available operator. Consequently, many of these small (say 40 subscribers) auto exchanges were parented by manual exchanges in the nearest population centre. These exchanges did not support very long lines (party or otherwise) and had a working limit of 850 ohms (I think).

In the early 1970s the PMG was attempting to automate the remaining manual services at the extremities of the network. In a report from 1971:

In Queensland there are almost 1,000 lines longer than 20 miles, with 280 of these exceeding 50 miles. Most are party lines, for subscribers in these areas readily accept party sharing as an economic compromise. However, the cost of building a new line in 70 lb. c.c. wire pairs can be $700 per mile, which is still very expensive per party past the 15 mile radial distance now provided by the Department.

At the time, the technology used to provide auto party lines was not up to these line lengths so a new system was developed.

The party line must be metallic, and a loop resistance of 2500 ohms is tolerable with full safety factor on the line relays. A leakage of 14,000 ohms is safe.

To my knowledge, these were the last party line developments.

Jack
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: poplar1 on November 10, 2015, 08:05:28 PM
Another railroad phone. This one does not have a generator, and the hole for the crank has a blank cover. Seller stated:

This is a Automatic Electric Monophone that once was used in the Houlton Maine area by the Bangor and Aroostook Railroad

Ebay auction closed with no bids; opening bid asked was $89.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151870071049
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 10, 2015, 08:30:20 PM
Another railroad phone. This one does not have a generator, and the hole for the crank has a blank cover. Seller stated:

This is a Automatic Electric Monophone that once was used in the Houlton Maine area by the Bangor and Aroostook Railroad

Ebay auction closed with no bids; opening bid asked was $89.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151870071049

Yes, I was watching that.   This one still has the Type 41 handset, and that leads me to believe now that this type was made even before 1960.   One could follow AE's tendency to number phones by their year and assume the same for the Type 60.

It also doesn't have the ringer, so it was probably used directly on the main line, probably connected through a selector set, which had the ringer built in.

Another one ended yesterday and it had the generator ($100, no bids).

This shows the set complete with its battery box.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 10, 2015, 09:02:05 PM
Yes, I was watching that.   This one still has the Type 41 handset, and that leads me to believe now that this type was made even before 1960.   One could follow AE's tendency to number phones by their year and assume the same for the Type 60.

I think that's a Type 25 anti-noise handset but it doesn't change the argument.

I think the Type 60 was available in 1950 because it appears in documents (CAT 1712 Replacement Parts For Monophones) that predate the Type 51 dial.

Jack
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 12, 2015, 09:42:40 AM
Yes, I was watching that.   This one still has the Type 41 handset, and that leads me to believe now that this type was made even before 1960.   One could follow AE's tendency to number phones by their year and assume the same for the Type 60.

I think that's a Type 25 anti-noise handset but it doesn't change the argument.

I think the Type 60 was available in 1950 because it appears in documents (CAT 1712 Replacement Parts For Monophones) that predate the Type 51 dial.

Jack

I don't know whether AE made a 41-type handset with a switch in the handle.  If not, it could certainly be a modified type 25 handset, but the standard one would not be compatible with this circuit.  So, either it is a modified type 41 or a modified type 25, or some other type that isn't in the catalogs accessible.


Is this 1712 parts catalog available anywhere?
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 12, 2015, 06:08:28 PM
I don't know whether AE made a 41-type handset with a switch in the handle.  If not, it could certainly be a modified type 25 handset, but the standard one would not be compatible with this circuit.  So, either it is a modified type 41 or a modified type 25, or some other type that isn't in the catalogs accessible.

I didn't look at the compatibility issue but the shape makes it not a Type 41. What is the compatibility issue?

The Type 25 didn't seem to last long - the Type 27 (based on Type 38) remained in service and was available after the Type 25. Don't know why.

Quote
Is this 1712 parts catalog available anywhere?

Isn't it one of the TCI reprints?

Jack
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 12, 2015, 06:13:51 PM
Apparently CAT 1712 Replacement Parts For Monophones is mine.

Here it is...

Jack
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: unbeldi on November 12, 2015, 06:57:09 PM
Thanks much for the catalog, Jack!
Interestingly, it list the handset for the Type 60 as being a Type 41.  But then, the Type 60 listed in that catalog has the AE40/50 circuit, going by the induction coil number.  So this is indeed the "civilian" version of the Type 60, which did not need a special handset.

For the railway system, the Type 25 handset is incompatible, because it has the wrong push button.  The Type 25 has a push-to-listen, release-to-talk button, which places a short across the transmitter when pushed.   You can't have that in the L-658 railroad version. That requires to complete (close) the transmitter circuit with the transmitter and place a resistor in the receiver circuit.  If a Type 25 handset were used, it would create a short circuit discharging the battery directly across the induction coil, with has only a couple ohms resistance and would kill the battery in short time. In addition, the battery has a very low internal resistance of less than an 1 ohm likely, so it would short circuit the induction coil and withdraw audio-frequency energy from the speech circuit, achieving the opposite of the intended effect.
Title: Re: AE Railroad Telephones
Post by: Jack Ryan on November 12, 2015, 07:20:13 PM
Thanks much for the catalog, Jack!

You're welcome.

Quote
For the railway system, the Type 25 handset is incompatible, because it has the wrong push button.  The Type 25 has a push-to-listen,

I have never opened a Type 25 handset but it looks like a changeover switch to me - just what a Type 60 needs. There are no instructions on the handset either. Some time I'll have to open one.

Not shown in that catalogue but some Type 25 handsets have a "spitcup" transmitter cap like the AE 34A3B handset.

Jack