Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => Collector's Corner => Topic started by: cello973 on November 12, 2015, 04:23:57 PM

Title: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: cello973 on November 12, 2015, 04:23:57 PM
Here we go for 11/15 this is a phone WE302 I picked up on ebay for about $60.00 with shipping but it is of somewhat historic value. The person named on the plaque is one of the original partners in Endicott Johnson and an investor and banker in Binghamton NY as well as being on the BOD of several prominent companies and NY Tel. The fact that it has a St. Lois, MO area code on the number card is consistent with the family having owned an estate in the area and Chester B. Lord having passed away in MO and the phone possibly ending up in the hands of private party at an estate sale somewhere along the line. here is the original ebay auction (Item# 301785813081) however I installed a period correct finger wheel.
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: unbeldi on November 12, 2015, 04:51:16 PM
Here we go for 11/15 this is a phone WE302 I picked up on ebay for about $60.00 with shipping but it is of somewhat historic value. The person named on the plaque is one of the original partners in Endicott Johnson and an investor and banker in Binghamton NY as well as being on the BOD of several prominent companies and NY Tel. The fact that it has a St. Lois, MO area code on the number card is consistent with the family having owned an estate in the area and Chester B. Lord having passed away in MO and the phone possibly ending up in the hands of private party at an estate sale somewhere along the line. here is the original ebay auction (Item# 301785813081) however I installed a period correct finger wheel.
What are the markings on the back of the dial?   Is it marked 5H, 5J, or is it a 6D ?
It is interesting that they or someone installed a what appears to be a 5J or 6D dial with the white-painted dial case. Certainly the finger wheel didn't exist at that time.  Also the handset is not of then current or recent production. The guy retired end of 1954 and I think by that date production of black 302s had been discontinued already, but new handsets were still made.  The handset is probably from the early 40s. Seems the phone was put together from parts for the occasion.   What is the date on the dial face, the number plate?

The finger stop seems to be pretty high, as if intended for the new style finger wheel.
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: cello973 on November 12, 2015, 05:09:10 PM
Here we go for 11/15 this is a phone WE302 I picked up on ebay for about $60.00 with shipping but it is of somewhat historic value. The person named on the plaque is one of the original partners in Endicott Johnson and an investor and banker in Binghamton NY as well as being on the BOD of several prominent companies and NY Tel. The fact that it has a St. Lois, MO area code on the number card is consistent with the family having owned an estate in the area and Chester B. Lord having passed away in MO and the phone possibly ending up in the hands of private party at an estate sale somewhere along the line. here is the original ebay auction (Item# 301785813081) however I installed a period correct finger wheel.
What are the markings on the back of the dial?   Is it marked 5H, 5J, or is it a 6D ?
It is interesting that they or someone installed a what appears to be a 5J or 6D dial with the white-painted dial case. Certainly the finger wheel didn't exist at that time.  Also the handset is not of then current or recent production. The guy retired end of 1954 and I think by that date production of black 302s had been discontinued already, but new handsets were still made.  The handset is probably from the early 40s. Seems the phone was put together from parts for the occasion.   What is the date on the dial face, the number plate?

The finger stop seems to be pretty high, as if intended for the new style finger wheel.

Not about to remove the dial for a date today however the housing is consistent with the plaque date... I have a 500 in my storage area that was presented to a retired Western employee in 83 that was pieced together just for the purpose of presenting it...
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on November 12, 2015, 05:31:07 PM
You don't have to remove the dial, just open the phone and look at the back of the dial.  As Karl stated, its either a 5J or a 6D and had the correct clear open face finger wheel already on it....Doug
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: unbeldi on November 12, 2015, 05:38:54 PM
Here we go for 11/15 this is a phone WE302 I picked up on ebay for about $60.00 with shipping but it is of somewhat historic value. The person named on the plaque is one of the original partners in Endicott Johnson and an investor and banker in Binghamton NY as well as being on the BOD of several prominent companies and NY Tel. The fact that it has a St. Lois, MO area code on the number card is consistent with the family having owned an estate in the area and Chester B. Lord having passed away in MO and the phone possibly ending up in the hands of private party at an estate sale somewhere along the line. here is the original ebay auction (Item# 301785813081) however I installed a period correct finger wheel.
What are the markings on the back of the dial?   Is it marked 5H, 5J, or is it a 6D ?
It is interesting that they or someone installed a what appears to be a 5J or 6D dial with the white-painted dial case. Certainly the finger wheel didn't exist at that time.  Also the handset is not of then current or recent production. The guy retired end of 1954 and I think by that date production of black 302s had been discontinued already, but new handsets were still made.  The handset is probably from the early 40s. Seems the phone was put together from parts for the occasion.   What is the date on the dial face, the number plate?

The finger stop seems to be pretty high, as if intended for the new style finger wheel.

Not about to remove the dial for a date today however the housing is consistent with the plaque date... I have a 500 in my storage area that was presented to a retired Western employee in 83 that was pieced together just for the purpose of presenting it...

So it looks like it's No. 6 dial, there is just a little bit visible.  A date on the case or on the number plate would tell whether the dial was replaced in the 1960s with the new-style, solid window fingerwheel.
The base is from 1949, and the housing is just right, as you mentioned.   Black housings were still made for 307 sets, which did not get discontinued immediately.  They probably also made some as replacement parts for the distributing houses.
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: cello973 on November 12, 2015, 05:47:47 PM
You don't have to remove the dial, just open the phone and look at the back of the dial.  As Karl stated, its either a 5J or a 6D and had the correct clear open face finger wheel already on it....Doug

Doug,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you don't remove the dial you wont be able to see the dial type number... 202 302 5302 or 500 you gotza unscrew the dial... for this particular dial the dial type number is usually under the terminals which as you will note is covered by the housing...

And its a 6D dial dated 10 of 1953 and you will also note it had to be removed in order to see the markings...

Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: unbeldi on November 12, 2015, 06:00:30 PM
For a No. 6 dial it is indeed hard to see.  For the No.4 and No. 5 dials usually the type is very easily seen.
But a No. 6 dial is easily recognized by its construction.  What is more interesting at this point is indeed the date.  When dials were replaced in the 60s, No. 6D dials were indeed equipped with the closed finger wheel, and I have also seen that a 6A dial was over-painted white to look like a 6D.
Those are the reasons I asked.
The number card is not from the 1950s, it's an early 60s card, so I think the solid window FW was there when installed.

PS:
Ok, we cross-posted, and you added a picture.  Very good, the dial is the original.  So, the the finger wheel was installed in the early 60s when that number card was installed.  The exchange names were dropped not long before the switch to ANC.  It may be possible to find newspapers with Bell System ads that announced when this happened.  The central office name was FOrest.
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: cello973 on November 12, 2015, 06:19:24 PM
For a No. 6 dial it is indeed hard to see.  For the No.4 and No. 5 dials usually the type is very easily seen.
But a No. 6 dial is easily recognized by its construction.  What is more interesting at this point is indeed the date.  When dials were replaced in the 60s, No. 6D dials were indeed equipped with the closed finger wheel, and I have also seen that a 6A dial was over-painted white to look like a 6D.
Those are the reasons I asked.
The number card is not from the 1950s, it's an early 60s card, so I think the solid window FW was there when installed.

PS:
Ok, we cross-posted, and you added a picture.  Very good, the dial is the original.  So, the the finger wheel was installed in the early 60s when that number card was installed.  The exchange names were dropped not long before the switch to ANC.  It may be possible to find newspapers with Bell System ads that announced when this happened.  The central office name was FOrest.

Reason I went with the open finger wheel was because I found a celluloid number card cover underneath the current number card and the ring clip matches a few 202 imperials I own from around the 54 to 58 period . You are correct the card is definitely from the 60s as the EXchange name was shortened to two letters...
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: unbeldi on November 12, 2015, 06:24:42 PM
Here is the central office to which your phone was connected.
The remarkable aspect of that is that it still is a No. 1AESS switch, one of the last few remaining.  I thought I had read that they were already replaced those in Missouri.  It serves ten prefixes.
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: cello973 on November 12, 2015, 06:41:44 PM
Thanks and if I'm not mistaken and my ex Father in law didn't lie to me (he worked in that CO) the bricked the windows up in the mid to late 70s early 80s due to the natives attacking the building. According to him they used to steal a van or two a month from the lot or the garage in that district...

"the new" AT&T has quite a few 1As floating around. They usually upgrade them after a natural or man made disaster. :o

Sorry to all for the thread being hijacked.... we now return you to your normally scheduled thread......  8)
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: unbeldi on November 12, 2015, 07:02:43 PM
Sorry to all for the thread being hijacked.... we now return you to your normally scheduled thread......  8)

yes, perhaps a moderator can separate out the discussion of the phone into a separate topic.
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: TelePlay on November 12, 2015, 07:22:23 PM
Sorry to all for the thread being hijacked.... we now return you to your normally scheduled thread......  8)

yes, perhaps a moderator can separate out the discussion of the phone into a separate topic.

No problem. I was waiting for about an hour to do this. I didn't want to split the topic and move it while members were posting to it. I don't know what the SMF software would have done had I made the split and move while someone was posting.

This phone can be "re"-nominated as a candidate for the November Find of the Month by cello973, or anyone else, by creating a reply in the November Find of the Month topic nominating it, basically a copy of the first paragraph in the first post above along with one photo of the phone and a link to this topic.
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on November 12, 2015, 07:45:41 PM
You don't have to remove the dial, just open the phone and look at the back of the dial.  As Karl stated, its either a 5J or a 6D and had the correct clear open face finger wheel already on it....Doug

Doug,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you don't remove the dial you wont be able to see the dial type number... 202 302 5302 or 500 you gotza unscrew the dial... for this particular dial the dial type number is usually under the terminals which as you will note is covered by the housing...

And its a 6D dial dated 10 of 1953 and you will also note it had to be removed in order to see the markings...


thanks...I am new at this
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: andre_janew on November 13, 2015, 11:05:29 AM
I've always thought the 5J dial had the works out in the open while the 6D dial had a cover over them.  Am I wrong about this?
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: rdelius on November 13, 2015, 11:20:37 AM
You are correct #2,4,5 no cover,#6 has a cover,not always there if not professionaly rebuilt,
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: unbeldi on November 13, 2015, 11:55:41 AM
Thanks and if I'm not mistaken and my ex Father in law didn't lie to me (he worked in that CO) the bricked the windows up in the mid to late 70s early 80s due to the natives attacking the building. According to him they used to steal a van or two a month from the lot or the garage in that district...

"the new" AT&T has quite a few 1As floating around. They usually upgrade them after a natural or man made disaster. :o

Sorry to all for the thread being hijacked.... we now return you to your normally scheduled thread......  8)

I think there are only about 50 or 60 of  the 1AESS systems left.
Mark Cuccia researched this some years ago and posted a list:  It can be seen here: 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/centraloffice/conversations/messages/6276

The St. Louis systems were still listed there too.
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on November 14, 2015, 09:08:01 AM
WE 302s with matching dates are very desirable as they have not been touched since they were made. With Date Matching 302s, I have never seen a WE Black 302 with a #6 dial that matched and I have opened a few 302s.  All Black 302s I have seen with matching dates either had a 4H or a 5H in them. 5302s had the refurbed 5H,  5M in them. I have seen 6A in them as well, but dates will never match in a 5302. I did have one Ivory 302 with a date matching 6D this was a mid 50's set and I no longer own it.

Has anyone seen a date matching Black 302 set with a 6A in it? ....Doug
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: unbeldi on November 14, 2015, 10:17:00 AM
WE 302s with matching dates are very desirable as they have not been touched since they were made. With Date Matching 302s, I have never seen a WE Black 302 with a #6 dial that matched and I have opened a few 302s.  All Black 302s I have seen with matching dates either had a 4H or a 5H in them. 5302s had the refurbed 5H,  5M in them. I have seen 6A in them as well, but dates will never match in a 5302. I did have one Ivory 302 with a date matching 6D this was a mid 50's set and I no longer own it.

Has anyone seen a date matching Black 302 set with a 6A in it? ....Doug

The No. 6 dial apparently was announced in Fall of 1952.

It appears that the 6D dial was used on the colored sets starting in April or May 1953, but no 5J dials appear to be made anymore after 12/52. Indeed, I have several date-matched COLORED 302s going into 1954 with 6D dials.

But as you say, with 5H vs. 6A dials, it is less clear to me.  An Ohio Bell announcement stated as of August 1952 that No. 6 dials were used "on most 300-type telephone sets", but it seems rather rare to find black 302s dated 1953 or 1954. Production must have been reduced already greatly in favor of the 500-set.

The colored 302s still seem plentiful in 1953 and early 1954, because the colored 500 sets were not available yet until beginning 1954 it seems.  302 production seems to have stopped entirely by May or June or so of 1954.  307 sets were still made into 1956 or 57.
Title: Re: WE 302 commemorative phone won on eBay
Post by: Doug Rose on November 14, 2015, 11:29:45 AM
thanks Karl....good information....Doug