Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Telephone Troubleshooting and Repair => Topic started by: Argyris on January 01, 2016, 04:04:14 PM

Title: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: Argyris on January 01, 2016, 04:04:14 PM
Is there an adjustment screw? Some other way of adjusting it? I don't see anything on mine. I have heard that one can bend the governor spring slightly, but that makes me uneasy: which way, how much, etc.

Background: I am trying to get a WE 500 set to dial out on a FIOS line. Apparently everyone agrees that it should work, but a couple of posts here have indicated that the dial has to be running within a narrowly correct speed in order to work with the FIOS ONT. Mine, apparently, doesn't.
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 01, 2016, 04:15:00 PM
I don't think Verizons FIOS service supports rotary dialing in many areas.  I would be suspicious of that way before adjusting a dial.  To answer your question, though, there is no adjusting screw.  These dials were not made to be adjusted in the field.  Unless you have a way to measure the dial speed and have had any experience, I would not even try.
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: Ktownphoneco on January 01, 2016, 04:29:33 PM
I'd go with Bill's thoughts.     Bell System BSP's stipulate that acceptable dial speeds for a standard residential telephone line are between 8.0 and 11.00 pulses per second, but that's on a telephone line that supports pulse dialing.

Jeff Lamb
   
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: Argyris on January 01, 2016, 05:13:24 PM
Thanks.

A Verizon rep assured me before FIOS was installed that it would support pulse dialing. Then again, she also got my order wrong and also told me I'd be having "an electronical box" installed. So she was maybe not the most reliable source of information.

I'll call Verizon again. Sigh.
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: Southernphoneman on January 01, 2016, 05:22:44 PM
Seen in the photo here with an arrow pointed at a spring in the governor, is a number 7D dial. I have seen people take these out and adjust them and make the dial way to fast, but that is the way you would adjust it. 10 pulses per second is the norm, 20 pulses per second, as per the bsp is considered speed dialing under certain circumstances. And fast dials will often dial the wrong number in certain situations.
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 01, 2016, 06:02:05 PM
Thanks.

A Verizon rep assured me before FIOS was installed that it would support pulse dialing. Then again, she also got my order wrong and also told me I'd be having "an electronical box" installed. So she was maybe not the most reliable source of information.

I'll call Verizon again. Sigh.


This has come up from time to time.  Many of the sales people and even the tech support folks on the other end of an 800 number sitting in China or India don't even know whether their systems will support rotary dialing or not.  I think they are told that their systems support regular "old" phones, meaning regular touch-tone phones, and they just assume that means rotary is supported too.  It has even been reported that some tech support people did not even know what rotary dialing is, much less know if it was supported.

If you can get your hands on another rotary phone, try that and see if another phone will work.  I would say that if two different rotary phones don't work you might be out of luck. 

Maybe, just maybe, there is some setting that the person at the other end of the 800 number can set as an option to activate rotary dialing.  I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: Argyris on January 01, 2016, 07:10:36 PM
Thanks.

The timing of this particular dial is certainly *about* right--that is, just judging it by ear, it's taking about a second to return from dialing a zero. It worked fine on the copper line a week ago.

I just got off the phone with Verizon (for the fifth time) and it's true: You say "pulse dialling" to these folks, and you may as well be speaking Aramaic. They don't seem to know whether they have to enable pulse dialing. Fortunately, a tech will be coming here tomorrow for an (unrelated) problem, and in my experience, the installers are far more knowledgeable than the customer-service folks. I suspect they can set me straight.

Earlier today, I was directed by a Verizon rep to check with the manufacturer of the phone, which I found pretty funny.  "Sure. I'll just call Western Electric and see what they have to say about fiber-optic lines."
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: G-Man on January 01, 2016, 09:38:11 PM
Seen in the photo here with an arrow pointed at a spring in the governor, is a number 7D dial. I have seen people take these out and adjust them and make the dial way to fast, but that is the way you would adjust it. 10 pulses per second is the norm, 20 pulses per second, as per the bsp is considered speed dialing under certain circumstances. And fast dials will often dial the wrong number in certain situations.

Southernphoneman, I  wasnít aware that 7-type dials were intended for use at 20-pps. Which BSP did you find that in?

 If I recall correctly, Bell Labs stated the who point behind the design of these dials were to provide a consistently more stable generation of pulses over the course of their service life, and if needed, saving the cost of labor by requiring them to be replaced instead of being repaired in the field.

In other words, if it takes a repairman and hour to an hour and a half to dick around adjusting, tweaking, and testing a dial, his wages would easily exceed the cost of simply replacing a $4.95 (or so) dial.

According to the BSPs in our collection, 7-type dials were not considered to be adjustable since, other than number card holders, fingerwheels and a couple of other superfluous items, not affecting their performance, parts were not available, hence, they were not field repairable. But perhaps you have updated documentation that shows otherwise.

Of course, someone may prove to be adroit enough to adjust them by bending the governor spring back and forth, but I suspect itís not something for the faint of heart.

Thanks
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: TelePlay on January 01, 2016, 09:52:28 PM
Southernphoneman, I  wasnít aware that 7-type dials were intended for use at 20-pps. Which BSP did you find that in?

Yes, IIRC, the 20 PPS dials were only used on switchboards (4H or 5H I think, maybe something else but at least that type of dial) for fast operator dialing (save WE some money). They also had a unique curve in the finger stop, not the sharp edge we are familiar with. I am writing this from memory so I am open to correction. I actually have one of these 20 PPS dials, somewhere. Can't use it for anything, bought it before I knew about them.
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: G-Man on January 01, 2016, 09:55:16 PM
 I might add that unlike WECo and the rest of the Bell System, ITT did make parts available and provided instructions for adjusting their version of the 7-type dial.
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: G-Man on January 01, 2016, 10:01:11 PM
Southernphoneman, I  wasnít aware that 7-type dials were intended for use at 20-pps. Which BSP did you find that in?

Yes, IIRC, the 20 PPS dials were only used on switchboards (4H or 5H I think, maybe something else but at least that type of dial) for fast operator dialing (save WE some money). They also had a unique curve in the finger stop, not the sharp edge we are familiar with. I am writing this from memory so I am open to correction. I actually have one of these 20 PPS dials, somewhere. Can't use it for anything, bought it before I knew about them.


We are very well aware that some versions of earlier dials were capable of 20-pps for use with Panel or certain crossbar offices, however, until southernphoneman stated otherwise, I was unaware that some 7-type dials were also intended to operate at that speed. I am just curious as to what the number or issue of the BSP that he referenced it from
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: Southernphoneman on January 01, 2016, 10:06:23 PM
Southernphoneman, I  wasnít aware that 7-type dials were intended for use at 20-pps. Which BSP did you find that in?

Yes, IIRC, the 20 PPS dials were only used on switchboards (4H or 5H I think, maybe something else but at least that type of dial) for fast operator dialing (save WE some money). They also had a unique curve in the finger stop, not the sharp edge we are familiar with. I am writing this from memory so I am open to correction. I actually have one of these 20 PPS dials, somewhere. Can't use it for anything, bought it before I knew about them.


We are very well aware that some versions of earlier dials were capable of 20-pps for use with Panel or certain crossbar offices, however, until southernphoneman stated otherwise, I was unaware that some 7-type dials were also intended to operate at that speed. I am just curious as to what the number or issue of the BSP that he referenced it from
I should clarify myself, when I posted about the speed of the number 7 and yes Gman you would be right about the number 7 not meant for the "speed dialing" I have on my facebook page 4 scanned pages of the BSP's in question, it lists the particular model number of dials on them I will come back and modify this reply in a few minutes.I apologize if these aren't in order.
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: G-Man on January 01, 2016, 10:31:07 PM
 Southernphoneman, thanks for the clarification. Both of us seem to be in agreement that Ma Bell did not intend for 7-type dials to be adjusted for speed in the field. There were however, suggested adjustments for proper gear-mesh in response to noise complaints.
 
If someone were intent on doing so, I would suggest they consult the ITT/Kellogg TIMM manual for instructions on how to adjust their equivalent dials. 
 
However, while in the past, on POTS lines, one may have been able to get away with dials adjusted to loose tolerances, todayís VoIP and other digital services require a much tighter adherence to correct pulse-speeds.
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: Argyris on January 02, 2016, 11:57:49 AM
Followup below, which may be useful to forum members in the future:

The Verizon guy tested my FIOS line with the pulse setting on his buttset, and was able to dial out. So pulse dialing is indeed enabled on this ONT.

I have tried two rotary phones on the line, a 302  with a No. 6 dial and a 500 with a No. 7D.  Neither would dial out.

I noticed that the clicks of his phone's pulse setting were audibly faster (just gauging by ear; I didn't measure) than the clicks of a rotary dial. Probably not twice as fast, as discussed below, but there was a noticeable difference. This suggests to me that dial speed is indeed the issue.

When I get a little free time, I will tinker with the adjustments on No. 6 and try it at higher and lower speeds. If that does anything, I will report back.

Till then, I have a Dialgizmo on the line, and that, at least, works fine.
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 02, 2016, 12:00:24 PM
Well, then, keep on trying...  :)
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: andre_janew on January 02, 2016, 12:10:43 PM
My grandmother had her own version of speed dialing which was to simply spin the fingerwheel faster.  She was convinced she had to dial that way or she wouldn't get anywhere.  She had a regular POTS line.
Title: Re: 7D dial speed adjustment
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 02, 2016, 12:57:03 PM
Just a way out there thought......a shot in the dark...


Try both the 302 and the 500 with one of their ringer leads disconnected.