Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Switching => Telephone & Data Building Wiring Systems => Topic started by: cloyd on February 21, 2016, 01:53:15 PM

Title: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: cloyd on February 21, 2016, 01:53:15 PM
Hello experts!
I am ready to begin trying to use existing phone lines to fish new lines into place as home runs to my PBX.  I have identified where the lines are going and I can get access in the attic.  I want to know which cable to use.
I'll be mounting the PBX in the basement and most of the lines will go two stories straight up (hopefully) into the attic.  From there I will need four lines.  If I try to replace all of the phone lines, I'll need two extensions in the basement, four on the main level, and then the four on our top floor.  I think one jack is hidden behind some substantial shelving units in the front room where I have my phones on display.  Wouldn't you know.
We have wireless internet access but I still want to use a cable that will have expandability into the future.  Granted, "it" would probably require something different so, maybe expandability isn't an issue.
I'm venturing into the attic now to see if I can find the cables that I am guessing are where I think they are.
Let me know what you think!
Tina
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: unbeldi on February 21, 2016, 02:29:54 PM
The most readily available and probably cheapest wire these days is Category 5 plenum cabling that has been the mainstay for Ethernet computer networking for some years, but now being replaced with CAT 6 in many places for multiple gigabit speeds.  For telephones you don't need that of course, in fact CAT 3 would be fine, but CAT3 is only good for 10 Mbit/s Ethernet, long obsolete by 15 years at least, so stay away from it if you are also thinking to string some networking cables.

Cat 3, 5, 6 come with four pairs of wires, each pair twisted to specs.  So that provides you with four telephone lines, or one Ethernet connection.  Theoretically one could squeeze two telephones lines into an Ethernet cable, as that only requires 4 wires, but the ends need to be properly terminated.

Cat 5 is most economically bought in boxes of a 1000 ft, I think last time, I paid ca. $50 or $60 for the box, but it's been a while, and I still have plenty left.  I think I have also seen 500ft boxes somewhere.  Buying shorter lengths the price goes up quickly, but perhaps there are reasonable sources too.

When having such large supply, it makes sense to pull two runs to each location at the same time in one action by simply hooking your pulling wire at the bend of two sections of equal length.
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: AE_Collector on February 21, 2016, 02:58:02 PM
So the thought is to run 4 cables to the attic to hit the 4 locations in tge top floor? Then the 4 jacks on the main floor will be run through the basement and then up a foot or so to each location?

Each station needs 1 pair if wires so anything more than that is thinking ahead to try to allow for future needs. I would also look at a project like this as being lots of work and relatively small material cost. Therefore while at it I would be installing a data run and a phone run at each location. Data run would be 4 pair Cat 5 minimum and tge phone run could be the same ideally. This would allow you to use both for phone use (up to 8 stations at any location in case you want to make phones on display work) if you arent using the data run for data. A future owner of the house may have no use for phone runs but might appreciate double data runs in some of the locations.

If you are creating a route basement to attic be sure to pull in an extra run or two and/or put in a pull string for the future (which is replaced when used in the future). Make the hole(s) in the framing large enough to handle more wires in the future, not jammed tight after the initial installation.

There are lots of ways to accomplish what you need while allowing for the future. Others will have other ideas. I think much of this was discussed in a previous topic not too long ago.

Terry

<edit> Here is what I wrote on the topic in your "does a Panasonic PBX require a Propreitery Phone" topic.  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15529.0

Most older homes will have all phone wire feeding directly from the telephone protector which is very often olcated on the outside of the house, very often near the electric meter. Of course there are many exceptions. Around here much older homes, say older than 1960 usually had the prot inside by the electric panel. Some new homes now, maybe built in the last 10'years maximum will have prot on the outside but it feeds to a distribution panel inside where all the phone, network and CATV wire distributes from.

If installing a pbx of some sort in a house to be used on a daily basis as both access to your phone line and for its built in intercom and/or paging features, I would do the following. Install the system inside in a utility area where it isn't too difficult to run wire from. I would suggest terminating the phone system properly on punch down blocks such as 66, 110 or BIX. Take a good feed from there back to the prot or where ever your phone wires in the house ditribute from. Don't under do it, run ample pairs of wire to handle the main line or lines coming in and a pair for each station back out to the prot. This could easily mean 2 - 4 pair cables or more.

Ideally if your home is wired with station wire of two or more pairs and is all home runs you can change the jacks to double jacks everywhere with a pair of wire to each. Then you can set it up so the phone line goes direct (not through the pbx) to one of the jacks at each location allowing you to directly connect phones, answering machines, call displays etc. The other jack can be for a pbx station which needs to be connected at the prot to one of the pairs of wire you ran from the pbx  to the Prot.

If installing a distribution point within the house and you have the ability to run wire from there to the prot another possibilty to further enhance the flexibility would be to splice all set runs at the prot so that they all show up directly on blocks at the distribution area. Thus your phone line can be cross connected to whichever jack(s) you want and the same for the pbx. This would move all cross connecting from happening at the prot to happening at your new distribution point.

Remember, your direct phone line can be looped or home runs but the pbx pretty much needs a pair from each station to each individual jack. If you have a pbx port looped to some jacks they will all be the same station which will work for analog but not for digital (proprietary) phones.

There are infinite number of ways that a system can be installed and connected. I am a big proponent of doing things right the first time which then makes it much easier to change, rearrange or expand in the future without the need to basically start over and run more wire each time.

Terry


Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: NorthernElectric on February 21, 2016, 03:30:32 PM
I am ready to begin trying to use existing phone lines to fish new lines into place as home runs to my PBX.

Why not leave the existing wiring in place then just do 1 run from the PBX location to wherever all of the existing wires originate and use a suitable junction block?
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: unbeldi on February 21, 2016, 03:32:12 PM
You definitely don't need anything like the picture.

And you should avoid the solutions shown in this web page (http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2009/05/cable-blues-tangled-crazy-wiring-part-6.html):
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: unbeldi on February 21, 2016, 03:34:52 PM
In particular, this may impact your private life significantly:

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hVOW2U7K4-M/Sf4aj1gB8oI/AAAAAAABAN4/p1-0XGUMJXc/s640/rtyjuy6ujyujyujty.jpg)
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: cloyd on February 22, 2016, 09:02:59 AM
Before going up into the attic, I thought I had the wiring routes figured out.  When I got up there, there were cables EVERYWHERE!  Many more than I could account for.

Also, in the phone jack boxes, I found 2 and 3 lines ganged together which I thought meant that that box was used to route to one or two other boxes.  As soon as I cut the wires, we lost internet.  Now, this threw me.  Our internet is wireless, so these must be used for data???

This means, I think, that they need to remain in place which is bad news for me since I was going to use it to pull wires.

Oops, gotta teach, more later.

Tina
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: Fabius on February 22, 2016, 09:40:32 AM
When I wanted an extension off my Panasonic PBX to a location with no IC (inside cable) wire and the extension is going to be POTS (plain old telephone service) I used cordless phones. I believe you can still buy them at WalMart and such. I bought mine at Goodwill cheap. And they work great on the system for POTS.  Only minor issue is those extensions will not have all the features that the Panasonic phones have.
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: cloyd on February 22, 2016, 02:54:49 PM
So the thought is to run 4 cables to the attic to hit the 4 locations in tge top floor? Then the 4 jacks on the main floor will be run through the basement and then up a foot or so to each location?
There are lots of ways to accomplish what you need while allowing for the future. Others will have other ideas. I think much of this was discussed in a previous topic not too long ago.
Terry

Terry, thank you for your input!  Much of your advice is beyond my technical know-how.  I appreciate your comment that anything beyond the pair of wires is future oriented.  If I am going to bother pulling one wire, I may as well pull two.

Tina Loyd

Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: cloyd on February 22, 2016, 03:57:16 PM
I have been surfing the internet for Cat 5e plenum cable.  Some brands (Southwire) switched manufacturers and has gotten terrible reviews about broken cables that have to be redone.  Some cables are copper clad aluminum, others are all copper.  Is there code restrictions on copper clad aluminum wiring?  Do I need shielded or unshielded?  "Data cable" or "ethernet" or is it all the same?

Thank you,

Tina
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: Babybearjs on February 22, 2016, 04:05:55 PM
checkout www.deepsurplus.com I bought 25 pair Cat 5 from them and it works great! kind of pricey and now, they don't have the deals I found last year....  BUT... they do have IW cabling!
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: cloyd on February 24, 2016, 12:48:44 PM

When having such large supply, it makes sense to pull two runs to each location at the same time in one action by simply hooking your pulling wire at the bend of two sections of equal length.

Unbeldi,

Just to be clear, you recommend that I pull two Cat 5e cables to each location to allow for two ethernet connections in each location.  (Or 8 telephone connections.)

Thank you,

Tina
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: unbeldi on February 24, 2016, 01:52:30 PM

When having such large supply, it makes sense to pull two runs to each location at the same time in one action by simply hooking your pulling wire at the bend of two sections of equal length.

Unbeldi,

Just to be clear, you recommend that I pull two Cat 5e cables to each location to allow for two ethernet connections in each location.  (Or 8 telephone connections.)

Thank you,

Tina

That's what I have done in the past, I found it just easiest to fold a full length of run, and tie the pulling string or wire at the folding point without creating more reason for the cable to get caught somewhere while pulling.  As Terry pointed out, the work is greater here than the material costs, and this way it's easy to pull two cords in one action.

覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧\______________________ pull
覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧/

But in the end it's up to you to decide how it works best for you, and if the double run is not ever needed, then you need to decide what's best in each case.  But telephones in collectors' homes don't seem to stay alone long, and I have always found good use for an extra run.

When things get out of hand (with telephones), then the extra run can be used for a T1 line with a channel banks on each side.
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: Jim Stettler on February 24, 2016, 06:23:59 PM
You don't need plenum cable unless you are running it in your ductwork. Plenum is typically used above drop ceilings  when the space above is part of the return air plenum. I would buy 1000' and home run 1 cable per jack ( but I like overkill). 
JMO,
Jim S.

 It can be hard  to go from a basement up 1-2 stories and into an attic without making extra holes .  Depending on when the house was built and the walls you will most likely have a top plate, bottom plate, maybe fireblocks, on exterior walls you typically will have some sort of insulation.
A good spot to find a chaise is @ the plumbing pipes. You best run locations may be inside the closets, if you surface run the cable in the front corners it will be out of sight  and easier. You can also cover the cables with metal or plastic wiremold.

JMO,
Jim S.
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: cloyd on February 26, 2016, 02:40:03 PM
Thank you Jim,
I think I have read that plenum cable is more flexible and easier to pull.  Is that your experience?  I know that riser cable is much cheaper.  No one answered my question about copper clad aluminum cable and whether it is up to code.  Or is solid copper cable the better way to go anyway?

I may be doing one run to each location simply because I think the future will be more wireless rather than less.  I might try running some cable this weekend.  If I find a generous space to run from the basement to the attic, it will make a difference.  Our house is plenty big and I figure one run to each location will take roughly 600 feet of cable.  At $160-ish for a box of 1,000 feet, I think future homeowners can pull their own cable.  Perhaps my husband isn't as forgiving of expenditures on my archaic hobby as other spouses might be.   :'(

Tina
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: Jim Stettler on February 26, 2016, 04:23:46 PM
I don't think there is much difference in pulling. I would just use copper cat 5e.
 Here is a good deal from amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Cat5e-Ethernet-Cat-5e-VIVO-CABLE-V001/dp/B0092TG310/ref=sr_1_8?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1456521548&sr=1-8&keywords=cat+5+cable

Spend $1.01 on your husband and get free shipping.


JMO,
Jim S.

Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: poplar1 on February 26, 2016, 04:55:18 PM
I don't think there is much difference in pulling. I would just use copper cat 5e.
 Here is a good deal from amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Cat5e-Ethernet-Cat-5e-VIVO-CABLE-V001/dp/B0092TG310/ref=sr_1_8?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1456521548&sr=1-8&keywords=cat+5+cable

Spend $1.01 on your husband and get free shipping.


JMO,
Jim S.


This  wire is copper clad.
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: Jim Stettler on February 26, 2016, 07:02:30 PM
You are right. For the  price vs project, I would  use this if makes it affordable.
JMO,
Jim S.
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: AE_Collector on February 26, 2016, 09:31:42 PM
I have never until now heard of copper clad aluminum wire in small gauges like this! I guess that with data cable one tends to either terminate it on some sort if IDC cinnector or in a RJ45 type plug that also is basically IDC so the fact that it is aluminum maybe isn't likely to cause a problem.

Looking back at aluminum house wiring from the 70's, a small nick from striping the insulation off of a conductor would easily cause the wire to break off after just a couple of bends wrapping it around a screw terminal. This wire at 24 gauge would seem likely to compound that problem significantly other than the fact that terminating it in most cases is one quick "punch" and the spot that is nicked by the IDs wont likely see any movement afterwards. Screw terminal phone jacks could be a different story though.

Stripping the jacket off with some sort of cutter rather than using a rip cord (if it has one) could very easily nick the conductors at the cable butt enough to cause the conductor to break off before you can get the jack mounted on the wall.

Terry
Title: Re: Which cable for home runs?
Post by: Pourme on May 19, 2016, 07:30:08 AM
Thank you Jim,
I think I have read that plenum cable is more flexible and easier to pull.  Is that your experience?  I know that riser cable is much cheaper.  No one answered my question about copper clad aluminum cable and whether it is up to code.  Or is solid copper cable the better way to go anyway?

I may be doing one run to each location simply because I think the future will be more wireless rather than less.  I might try running some cable this weekend.  If I find a generous space to run from the basement to the attic, it will make a difference.  Our house is plenty big and I figure one run to each location will take roughly 600 feet of cable.  At $160-ish for a box of 1,000 feet, I think future homeowners can pull their own cable.  Perhaps my husband isn't as forgiving of expenditures on my archaic hobby as other spouses might be.   :'(

Tina

I am at the point today you were when this thread was active. What did you wind up using? Did you go with solid copper or aluminium core? Give a update and advice to someone following in your footsteps, if you will....Thanks!
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: cloyd on May 19, 2016, 03:19:20 PM
Pourme,

I decided to use Cat5e solid copper plenum cable.  It's the yellow cable in the photos.  (I had a box of 1000' left over if you are interested.)  I went with plenum because I didn't want to be ready to sell my house and have someone tell me that I couldn't have riser cable in a certain location.  I used a punch down termination (Cat3 RJ-11) in a flush mount box in the laundry room where I had mounted the PBX.  I'll take pictures later and post them.  I like the way it turned out.

If you are still building your home and you want an electrical termination box recessed into the wall between the studs, make sure the box is there so they space the studs correctly!!!  It's a bear to make room after the fact!

I color-coded the Cat3 connections but didn't follow through with the connections to and from the PBX.  I'll have to do that.  My daughter was thrilled to use the WE302 in her room to call other extensions in the house.

I will have to get you the parts numbers for my set-up which I had planned to do anyway.

More later,
Tina Loyd
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: jsowers on May 19, 2016, 05:03:10 PM
Tina, that's beautiful work. You should be very proud. For those who don't know, Tina is a high school science teacher and this is her first wiring project.

I used to work in IT for a school system. Once we had a Principal who ran his own Cat5 wiring and conduit and terminated it and I thought that was great, but you've surpassed him. It's even neat and professional looking. Your laundry room wallpaper is quite unusual too.  :)  Sort of goes with the bend of the wires.

Thanks for showing us the finished product.
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: cloyd on May 19, 2016, 05:13:27 PM
Thank you for the kind words.  Now I need to get the rest of my phones working!

I promised to post the sources for the materials I used.  Aside from incidentals like the velcro wrap, this is it.  I hope it saves someone a little time sourcing materials.

Tina
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: Doug Rose on May 19, 2016, 06:02:30 PM
Tina...I have been a Phone Man for almost 40 years. Very impressive indeed! You should be VERY proud.....Doug
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: Pourme on May 19, 2016, 07:57:57 PM
I'll say!...Very nice job, Tina....Impressive!
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 19, 2016, 08:06:27 PM
Codes require  things to be installed in a "workman like manner". Your  install would be  considered to be  "workman like manner".

Very nice.
Jim S.




Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: cloyd on May 20, 2016, 10:52:28 AM
Thank you.  I take "workman like manner" as high praise.
Tina
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: oldguy on May 21, 2016, 12:14:29 AM
Very impressive Tina, I'm thinking "workwoman like manner". Most guys don't have the patients to do that kind of work. You should be proud.
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: Fabius on May 21, 2016, 12:24:15 PM
Very impressive Tina, I'm thinking "workwoman like manner". Most guys don't have the patients to do that kind of work. You should be proud.

Actually we need to be gender neutral. So it's: "workperson like manner".  ;D
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: Fabius on May 21, 2016, 12:41:38 PM
Excellent work! Like Doug Rose I have been a telephone man most of my adult life Excellent work! It puts me to shame. The photo shows my Panasonic 616 sitting under my computer desk. Trust me, you don't want to see the wiring.  :-X
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: AE_Collector on May 21, 2016, 12:50:26 PM
Yes, good job. I know that lots of scenarios on how to complete this were discussed and I now see that you did opt for keystone type jack plates on the far end and strip mounted keystone jacks at the equipment end.

I can see that there are some jack colors used which almost certainly indicates something. That coupled with your purchase list, my guess is that the top row of jacks are runs to individual rooms in the house utilizing 3 pairs per jack with the white/brown pair being spare.

The second row of jacks (all white jacks) look as though there is only 2 cat5 cables going to them so they may be individual pair jacks feeding to the two 4 port plates likely located in an area where you are displaying some phones.

I can't see any indication of a CO line feed to the PBX so you may not have that connected but it could potentially be any one of the runs in the enclosure patched to a CO port of the PBX.

I also note the pull string to the attic (likely) tucked in the corner. That is the mark of someone who isn't what I call a "Hit and Run installer". You did a little extra up front to make your life (or someone else's life) easier in the future. The Hit and Run installer shows up to add a run, is happy to find the pull string left by a previous installer and doesn't bother replacing it!

Tell me how I did at deciphering!

Terry
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: unbeldi on May 21, 2016, 02:23:56 PM
With all that spiffy wiring, you are ready for G.Fast in every room.

While wireless is the rage and everyone likes no-wires, the copper lines remain king in connection speed.
With G.Fast, Internet access comes at speeds of fiber, 1Gbit/s or even higher a little, over standard twisted pair telephone wiring.
Perhaps the old copper plant in the ground is not so dead anymore.
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: cloyd on May 22, 2016, 03:05:43 PM
AE Collector,
Very accurate deductions!  There is a CO line coming into the box, it got the yellow jack since the cable I used was yellow.  If ever you visit me, you won't need a tour!  You have it figured out already!  Well done! :)

Fabius,
You might want to prop up your Panasonic.  It may not stay cool enough the way you have it strategically positioned.  You wouldn't want all of your time and effort to end up burning out the box.   ;)

unbeldi,
What does that mean?  "Perhaps the old copper plant in the ground is not so dead anymore."  ???

Tina
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: Fabius on May 22, 2016, 11:15:01 PM

Fabius,
You might want to prop up your Panasonic.  It may not stay cool enough the way you have it strategically positioned.  You wouldn't want all of your time and effort to end up burning out the box.   ;)

Tina

I will take a look at how the unit gets air flow. Thanks.
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: Babybearjs on June 25, 2016, 12:45:49 AM
Love the install pics... I used all keystone jacks in my install. they work good and are color coded... I even modularized my 1A1 system using RJ-45 cords... makes for a quick get away when removing old systems....
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: Dominic_ContempraPhones on June 28, 2017, 04:56:30 PM
Fiber ... no Panasonic.  DWDM ... wink.
Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: Victor Laszlo on July 02, 2017, 03:12:43 PM
Quote
Fiber ... no Panasonic.  DWDM ... wink.

I'm not sure what the message is here.

Since you are someone who has come late to the party, I would ask that you be aware that the thread to which you refer is over a year old. If you are going to drill down into the archives and comment on every thread that interests you, regardless of the last post, and make seemingly inappropriate or obscure remarks, perhaps you could start a new thread on the same subject.

There are lots of nouns, but no verbs.

I'm not sure how Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing would apply in this case of a young woman's admirable attempt and success in installing a system neatly.

Can you elucidate?

Title: Re: Which Cable Type for New Home Wiring?
Post by: TelePlay on July 02, 2017, 03:16:55 PM
I'm not sure what the message is here.

There are lots of nouns, but no verbs.

I'm not sure how Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing would apply in this case.

Can you elucidate?

It really doesn't matter at this point in time. This is an old topic and Tina has long since installed her wiring very successfully with the help of members more than a year ago. Her final installation is show in this link:

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15712.msg168091#msg168091

Not bad at all for a school teacher new to telephones. Shows what help from members can do for a person.

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15712.0;attach=142309;image)