Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Technical "Stuff" => AE "Code Breaking" and "Dating" Discussions => Topic started by: RotoTech99 on January 03, 2017, 12:13:37 PM

Title: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 03, 2017, 12:13:37 PM
Dear Forum:

With the permission of the original author, I've created a revised AE40 coding sheet that better explains hopefully what defines an early AE40 (Coded MA), and what defines a later AE40 (Coded MB).

Drawing have been added to show early AE40, and later AE40 housings and parts.

The balance of the coding hasn't changed, but there was need to clarify better "early" and "later" versions.

Feedback and comments would be appreciated please, so that if necessary further revision may be made.

I'm aware that sources for translating the original coding is sparse at best, but maybe this latest revision will help more.

Thank you, and all feedback appreciated,
RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Fabius on January 03, 2017, 12:25:54 PM
Thank you for posting this.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 03, 2017, 02:44:52 PM
Dear Fabius:

It was my pleasure... I know the original author & had has express permission to post this.

He and I spent a lot of discussion on it.

I hope others will find it useful as well

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 03, 2017, 08:24:39 PM
This list does not mention the difference between the Type 40 sets and the Type 41 sets (ID beginning with 40 or 41).

Of the AE 40s I have seen, the later set is a Type 41, has a high impedance ringer and uses a coding system like that used for the AE 47.

Only very occasionally have I come across a Type 40 with a high impedance ringer or a Type 41 with a low impedance ringer. I put these down to being modified sets.

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 03, 2017, 08:38:11 PM
This list does not mention the difference between the Type 40 sets and the Type 41 sets (ID beginning with 40 or 41).

That was also one of my first thoughts when I saw the subject matter.
I also find no reliable references for any of the stated "rules"; there ought to be some kind of base reference material that substantiates at least some of the assumptions, some case examples.  Since this document claims to be an update—an update to what ?—I would expect some kind of reference to the prior work, including authorship.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 03, 2017, 08:48:43 PM
I haven't seen reference to a type 41 in AE 40 documents..Most of the ones I have seen had "41" on the bottom,but I'm
not sure what the "41" refers to.

If I had a good explanation of how the "41" fits into the coding, I could add it in.

I wonder if the "41" could be for what I'm using MA and MB for, to designate early and later run AE40's?

The coding I'm using is meant mainly to provide a way to code an AE40 IG no information was found in original form to code the AE40's with.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 03, 2017, 08:49:27 PM
Based on this "guide" what do you suggest a set coded like this looks like:

L 4123 E25 UD 6

I am just picking a random example from my collection records.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 03, 2017, 08:55:08 PM
By a guess, I would say a black AE40 with a 23 cyc. freq. ringer.

I'd have to see a photo to formulate a code under the coding I'm using

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 03, 2017, 09:03:49 PM
You pose a reasonable question, Unbeldi... I can't say this coding will work for everyone, but maybe someone will find it useful, and give more suggestions and ideas to improve the guide


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 03, 2017, 09:06:40 PM
By a guess, I would say a black AE40 with a 23 cyc. freq. ringer.

I'd have to see a photo to formulate a code under the coding I'm using

There is no such thing as a 23 Hz frequency ringer.

I am beginning to think I am totally misunderstanding the purpose of this scheme.  I have never seen any marking that contained MA or MB.

If this is a homemade scheme to describe any set, I find it mostly useless, because nobody will know what it means without the guide. And if I have the set, I don't need a guide to see what it contains.  The manufacturing date is usually hard to determine anyways and any kind of specific formulation of that would simply be misleading. Only the very late sets made in Northlake had a manufacturing date stamped.

I would find it much more useful to describe my sets as being blue, red or purple, having a frequency ringer of some frequency, refer to the type of soldering used, or other connection method, and the type of dial mount if it is anything other then the normally found type, etc. etc.

Most of the sets found today, have been refurbished anyways, probably several times, making any kind of certain determination dubious at best.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 03, 2017, 09:41:28 PM
Sorry about the error on the freq. ringer; I'd have to find my documents with the ringer codes... I know its the last two figures
of the main code before the last 3 code letters.

I can go back and see if I can figure it out.

I would not consider the coding a scheme, and Arthur Bernea who originally authored it would not either. It was originally created
as a way for him to label and identify AE40's he could not originally find coding data on.

Partly due to some not yet able willing to release any documents they have s
in addition to incomplete or missing data somewhat complicates things.

If someone suggests ways i can improve the coding, both Arthur and I welcome it.




Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 03, 2017, 09:49:08 PM
Dear Unbeldi:

I reread the code u sent me, I still think the code you sent is for a black AE40, but with a 25 cycle ringer; the "E" I am not sure about.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 03, 2017, 09:49:35 PM
Based on this "guide" what do you suggest a set coded like this looks like:

L 4123 E25 UD 6

I am just picking a random example from my collection records.

I don't know how to fully decode this but:

41 = later with High-Z ringer (I forget the ringer code)
23 = Don't know but this is the most common code and seems to correlate with black case and no highlights (the poverty pack)
E   = Black lettered dial
25 = (I think) 25 Hz ringer

I have been on about the 40 and 41 codes (as well as the 50 and 51 codes) for years but I still haven't found an official description of this or any other AE 40 or earlier code.

Regards
Jack

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 03, 2017, 09:53:50 PM
By the way, the code used on the Type 41 AE 40s is different from the code used on the Type 40 AE 40s.

Ditto for the Type 50 and Type 51 AE 50s.

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 03, 2017, 10:06:35 PM
 By "high -z", do you mean HIGH IMPEDANCE ringer?

By black lettered dial, do you mean the white porcelain metropolitan dial with red numbers and black letters?
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 03, 2017, 10:07:34 PM
I don't know how to fully decode this but:

41 = later with High-Z ringer (I forget the ringer code)
23 = Don't know but this is the most common code and seems to correlate with black case and no highlights (the poverty pack)
E   = Black lettered dial
25 = (I think) 25 Hz ringer

I have been on about the 40 and 41 codes (as well as the 50 and 51 codes) for years but I still haven't found an official description of this or any other AE 40 or earlier code.

Regards
Jack

I am pretty much in the same state.

FYI, the set was found with a 33 1/3 Hz ringer and a dial with metropolitan plate on the Kenmore exchange in Fort Wayne, IN.
Indeed, most sets I have observed are also L series, 4123.   We don't even know what the L stands for, but I do recall having seen an N series set somewhere (or do I confuse that right now with AE 80?)....  From the features found, I am assuming a manufacturing date between 1952 and 1957, and narrowing the refurbishment date to 1955 to 1957.—too lengthy to go into that right now, but why would I attempt to create a new coding scheme to express all that, when the unknowns are so varied.

I use a compilation of some 40+ AE patents for the various features of AE sets, and to determine earliest or latest possible manufacturing date of sets from them.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 03, 2017, 10:12:04 PM
By "high -z", do you mean HIGH IMPEDANCE ringer?

By black lettered dial, do you mean the white porcelain metropolitan dial with red numbers and black letters?

I am sure Jack means the rural numbers only plate.
the letter z is commonly used to stand for impedance, indeed.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 03, 2017, 10:15:32 PM
I think the 23 cycle ringer was probably a typo, should have been 25 cycle.

I suspect the MA/MB is an attempt to apply similar coding to AE 40's as was later used on AE80's. IE: 80's started as Version N, then NA, NB, NC, ND etc. The MA/MB coding change appears to be just a part of this exercise, not anything from AE (to the best of my knowledge).

I know RotoTech has been working on this for awhile now. I always said I would crack the AE coding of bakelite sets before I die but I am starting to gave my doubts now! I think that much more comparing of real AE base codes needs to be done with the AE catalog ordering info as well as using the patent info to narrow manufacturing dates to try to get to the bottom of many of the numbering differences. The only thing that is 100% obvious is the SL versus frequency ringer coding and possibly the 40/41 change in conjunction with the change from unbiased to biased ringers that Jack mentions.

I don't see a lot if value in making up coding to sort of match AE80 coding unless one wants to use this system to catalog their own phones. While the intent of the MA/MB code might be similar to AE's 40/41 coding, I am pretty certain the two methods aren't currently interchangeable. The MA code is being used here to identify the early Bakelite case that used a metal dial bracket which is a very small percentage of the AE40 phones as compared to the large numbers of 41xx AE40 phones out there. So maybe there needs to be an MC version to identify the later change of ringer types.

I would like to start with attempting to get to the bottom of the L, N, P letters before the 40xx/41xx numbers. Does anyone gave any guesses what these might indicate? Are many P sets seen in the USA? I have wondered on occasion if the letter might indicate where it was made but haven't done any studying of this. P - Phillips Electrical Works (Canadian phone), L - Chicago Illinois, N - Northlake. Unlikely as Nortlake funny open until what....1957 or so. And I have encountered a few other letters as well.

Terry



Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 03, 2017, 10:23:56 PM
I am sure Jack means the rural numbers only plate.

Sorry, I meant that the dial had a black finger wheel and a white number plate with numbers and letters.

M = Numbers only
E = Metro dial (numbers and letters)
C =Dial blank.

Regards
Jack
 
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 03, 2017, 10:33:56 PM
If it is not too much to ask, can you e-mail the documents you got the information on coding from?

You may send it to edburnett1963@gmail.com
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 03, 2017, 10:37:18 PM
I know we are talking about two different letters here, I am referring to the letter at the very beginning of the base code.

I have records of phones (AE40, 47, 50) with first letter(s): D, L, N, P, PL, PN, SL, SN, SZL, Z. So I think that rules out where the phone was made but it does allow it to represent features that occasionally overlap.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 03, 2017, 10:42:55 PM
Sorry, I meant that the dial had a black finger wheel and a white number plate with numbers and letters.

M = Numbers only
E = Metro dial (numbers and letters)
C =Dial blank.

Regards
Jack

There was also a dial that had Operator in addition on the zero position.
I seem to also have seen numbers-only dials with 'A' (rather than M) in the coding, but it has not been uniquely identifiable that the letter actually refers to the dial.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 03, 2017, 10:48:11 PM
I know we are talking about two different letters here, I am referring to the letter at the very beginning of the base code.

I have records of phones (AE40, 47, 50) with first letter(s): D, L, N, P, PL, PN, SL, SN, SZL, Z. So I think that rules out where the phone was made but it does allow it to represent features that occasionally overlap.

Terry

I had the idea once that the series number at the beginning indicated the sales region for which the sets were destined.
I think I had compared several sets that seemed to have been found in the South Pacific, New Zealand or AUS, or so, with different starting letters, but I have not tried to verify against other regions.  Perhaps Jack knows what is prevalent there.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 03, 2017, 11:10:08 PM
There was also a dial that had Operator in addition on the zero position.
I seem to also have seen numbers-only dials with 'A' (rather than M) in the coding, but it has not been uniquely identifiable that the letter actually refers to the dial.

The "41" code is shared with the AE 47 for which there is a limited amount of information in TA-57.

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 03, 2017, 11:17:07 PM
The catalog I have is #TA-57; Can you send me a copy of the TA-47 catalog, please?

The dial coding Jack mentioned comes from the AE47 section of my TA-57 catalog.

Thank you, Rototech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 03, 2017, 11:22:12 PM
I had the idea once that the series number at the beginning indicated the sales region for which the sets were destined.
I think I had compared several sets that seemed to have been found in the South Pacific, New Zealand or AUS, or so, with different starting letters, but I have not tried to verify against other regions.  Perhaps Jack knows what is prevalent there.

Very few AE 40s were used in Australia and most of those that were were used by the military and had felt bottoms. I think I have posted the code on those before but I'm "at work" at the moment and I forget the details.

There other coding schemes (Type 18 & 22) used on AE 40

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 03, 2017, 11:24:44 PM
The catalog I have is #TA-57; Can you send me a copy of the TA-47 catalog, please?

The dial coding Jack mentioned comes from the AE47 section of my TA-57 catalog.

Thank you, Rototech99

Sorry, 57 - a typo

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 04, 2017, 12:33:27 AM
There was also a dial that had Operator in addition on the zero position.
I seem to also have seen numbers-only dials with 'A' (rather than M) in the coding, but it has not been uniquely identifiable that the letter actually refers to the dial.


On AE 80/90 series phones AE used A for numbers only dials, B for Blank and C for Metropolitan (numbers/letters) dials.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 04, 2017, 09:59:49 AM
Dear Unbeldi

Do you have anything that would better explain the ringer impedances for the AE40 ringers? A table of impedance lists and codes, possibly?

The most I recall is the large coil ringers were considered low impedance, and the D-56515 types as high impedance.

You've got my curiosity raised on this, so I'm curious to see what you have on this.

BTW: Getting a lot of good feedback on the topic overall, I'm glad to see it.

~RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 04, 2017, 04:42:15 PM
Dear Unbeldi

Do you have anything that would better explain the ringer impedances for the AE40 ringers? A table of impedance lists and codes, possibly?

The most I recall is the large coil ringers were considered low impedance, and the D-56515 types as high impedance.

You've got my curiosity raised on this, so I'm curious to see what you have on this.

BTW: Getting a lot of good feedback on the topic overall, I'm glad to see it.

~RotoTech99

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11938.0 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11938.0)
Here is a topic with tables for ringer codes for various manufacturers, but AE did not use a consistent nomenclature or sets of designations for the frequency-selective ringers throughout their history, like most of the others did.  So the table presented there does not list them explicitly for AE.  The AE catalogs use part numbers for each of the frequencies available, part numbers even individually for each ringer coil. But the lists in various catalogs are detailed.  AEs frequency systems, i.e. the frequency groups and values, are the same though as any other manufacturers.

I don't recall right now whether AE actually details the specific impedances of each type of ringer, other than classifying them as low impedance and high impedance.  This is a general line of classification in all of telephony history.  In general, a low impedance ringer had a DC resistivity of ca. 2500 Ω or less. Anything above that would be high.

For high-impedance ringers it was possibly to reduce the size of the ringing capacitors by about a factor of 2 and utilize the available ringing power more efficiently. Some manufactures varied the impedance of the ringers by frequency (e.g. Leich, IIRC).

For proper operation of frequency ringers several parameters must be controlled. Usually only the frequency and the capacitor size are listed in company catalogs. But it is also important to use the proper ringing voltage for each frequency.  In general the higher the frequency, the more voltage was used to ring them, because the effective impedance is a strong function of frequency and in order to provide enough power to the ringer they had to raise the voltage with frequency.   In historical perspective. some early ringing systems used voltages of up to 200 V.  Even today, the FCC still lists ringing voltages for 66 Hz ringers of 68 to 150 V—that doesn't mean they are still used, though.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 04, 2017, 04:45:47 PM
It would actually be fairly simple to test the AE ringer bridges for impedance and resonance. I have made such measurements for other types of ringers by WECo.  See here for examples:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11948.0

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 04, 2017, 07:20:48 PM
I have records of phones (AE40, 47, 50) with first letter(s): D, L, N, P, PL, PN, SL, SN, SZL, Z. So I think that rules out where the phone was made but it does allow it to represent features that occasionally overlap.

I didn't realize this kind of variety of  leading codes.
Since AE sold telephones all over the world, wouldn't the idea of these being sales regions or customer series indeed be a top choice for investigation ?  Seems so to me, given the priority position of the code before the model number (4123, 4111, ...)


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 04, 2017, 08:14:49 PM
I know we are talking about two different letters here, I am referring to the letter at the very beginning of the base code.

I have records of phones (AE40, 47, 50) with first letter(s): D, L, N, P, PL, PN, SL, SN, SZL, Z. So I think that rules out where the phone was made but it does allow it to represent features that occasionally overlap.

Terry

Add to those GN and TN.

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 04, 2017, 08:35:42 PM
Got a question regarding AE40 colors.. if "23" is the color code for a standard black set, what would the codes be for the other 9 colors?

Also, what about for a black set with chrome bands, or for color sets with gold or chrome accent?

I  noticed some of AE's color coding was similar to ITT's  coding, so that was why I used it with the AE40 coding.

I think I have some sets with other than"23"; I'll post them tomorrow, if the forum readers can give some ideas on what colors they.might represent, I might be able to work them into my coding, and probably other forum readers as well.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 04, 2017, 08:48:51 PM
Got a question regarding AE40 colors.. if "23" is the color code for a standard black set, what would the codes be for the other 9 colors?

Also, what about for a black set with chrome bands, or for color sets with gold or chrome accent?

I  noticed some of AE's color coding was similar to ITT's  coding, so that was why I used it with the AE40 coding.

I think I have some sets with other than"23"; I'll post them tomorrow, if the forum readers can give some ideas on what colors they.might represent, I might be able to work them into my coding, and probably other forum readers as well.

Who or what says that 23 is black ?

Are you taking it from 4123 ?
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 04, 2017, 09:09:14 PM
yes, I was taking it from "4123",  someone earlier called "23" the code for poverty pack black (standard); I assumed the color code was part of it.

I thought maybe "23" was a early code for black, until "00" was generally used to code black as such.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 04, 2017, 09:22:55 PM
yes, I was taking it from "4123",  someone earlier called "23" the code for poverty pack black (standard); I assumed the color code was part of it.

I thought maybe "23" was a early code for black, until "00" was generally used to code black as such.

I am sure that is not the case.

The sequences, such as L 4123, or L 4111, or N 4071, are simply catalog order numbers.   I think we should be careful to not interpret too much into these. A 4123 may well be the second generation post-war AE 40, but a 4111 was not even a type 40, but was type 47 Monophone.
I have pictures of a blue AE 40, starting with Z and a five-digit code that is completely unrelated, and then some codes. [PS: see earlier, Jack posted some too.]

It may well be that the 41 series was started after the war for the high-impedance ringer series, but it could also simply be the updated housing type in the 1946 (or so) patents that had modified carrying blocks in the cradle, perhaps or probably even a combination of improvements that led them to change the ordering numbers.

AE had sudden changes in ordering number previously.  When you study the ordering numbers for the Type 34 Monophone, you'll find that they changed also without explanations.





Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 04, 2017, 09:31:35 PM
I'm still a little uncertain because Jack Ryan or someone else said they thought "23" was identifying a "poverty pack black" code, so I'm inclined to go with that, unless there's something that better clarifies colors and features.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 04, 2017, 09:48:18 PM
Dear Unbeldi:

it was Jack Ryan who said that he thought "23" correlated to a basic black AE40.. I may have misinterrepted what he meant, but his thought certainly seems logical..

I think the other code numbers I gave from my list would apply on this as well.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 04, 2017, 09:58:21 PM
Dear Unbeldi:

it was Jack Ryan who said that he thought "23" correlated to a basic black AE40.. I may have misinterrepted what he meant, but his thought certainly seems logical..

I think the other code numbers I gave from my list would apply on this as well.

It certainly appears true that the 4123 is the very common black Bakelite AE40.   But this does not mean that 23 represents the color black or has for that matter any significance whatsoever, other than being the number assigned to the product by the accounting department.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 04, 2017, 10:28:05 PM
It certainly appears true that the 4123 is the very common black Bakelite AE40.   But this does not mean that 23 represents the color black or has for that matter any significance whatsoever, other than being the number assigned to the product by the accounting department.

I made the comment earlier that the code "23" seemed to correspond to the common black un-highlighted model. I didn't say that 23 was a code for black or that it had any other significance.

Just for clarity...

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 04, 2017, 10:32:03 PM
One has to remember that almost all of these sets were black back then. And there are up to 3 sets of additional codes (that are usually 2 or 3 digits long) stamped after the "L4123" on the base of many of these phones. The coding system probably evolved throughout the manufacturing run of Bakelite Monophones. The color of the phone was most likely just a digit or letter in one of the codes that followed the initial "L4123" code if the color was indicated at all. There may have been a whole series of slightly different 4 digit codes to cover typical variations likely more electrical in nature than cosmetic. Things like type if dial, type of handset cord, number of conductors in base cord, sets configured for local battery etc. Then if something changed across the board with the sets such as a change to the case, carrying handle, ringer impedance etc, they may have incremented the 4 digit codes for the whole series of variations.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 04, 2017, 10:37:31 PM
Dear Jack:

thanks for the clarification.. what about the codes 20. 22. 44, 46. and 74?

These codes followed either "40" or "41" on the sets on my list, what can you figure on those?
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 04, 2017, 10:50:29 PM
One has to remember that almost all of these sets were black back then. And there are up to 3 sets of additional codes (that are usually 2 or 3 digits long) stamped after the "L4123" on the base of many of these phones. The coding system probably evolved throughout the manufacturing run of Bakelite Monophones. The color of the phone was mist likely just a digit or letter in one of the codes that followed the initial "L4123" code if the color was indicated at all. There may have been a whole series of slightly different 4 digit codes to cover typical variations likely more electrical in nature than cosmetic. Things like type if dial, type of handset cord, number of conductors in base cord, sets configured for local battery etc. Then if something changed across the board with the sets such as a change to the case, carrying handle, ringer impedance etc, they may have incremented the 4 digit codes for the whole series of variations.

Terry

Without official documentation we will not answer this.

I made the comment because there is a very high correlation between there being "23" in the code after 41 and the telephone being a basic black model with no highlights. There is a very large number of phones of different colours, highlights, cord types and circuits with an ID starting with 41 so 41 is not correlated with the poverty pack model.

Jack

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 04, 2017, 11:00:57 PM
Thanks.
My guess as to the coding overall is that corresponded more to identifying the basic model, color, and ringer/feature codes,not such coding electrical features.

Now coding for local battery sets could certainly be possible.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 04, 2017, 11:46:25 PM
I found some codes in one of the "Automatic Electric Handbooks"

These apply the the 41 model (L-41). 41 is followed by:

07  With Spotter dial for SATT-A
11  Multiline (AE 47) from catalogue data
17  Superimposed Ringing
19  Party line station for SATT-B
23  Standard Type 40

Followed by (from catalogue) the dial code:

A    Dunno
M   Number only dial
E    Numbers and letters
C    Dial blank
D    Dunno

Followed by the ringer code:

SL  Straight line
xx   Frequency code

Followed by Handset cord code:

T     Straight black
W    Extensicord black
Z     Coiled black
?     Others

There are other options for colour etc but I have to get back to work now.

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 04, 2017, 11:54:40 PM
Dear Jack:

thanks for the clarification.. what about the codes 20. 22. 44, 46. and 74?

These codes followed either "40" or "41" on the sets on my list, what can you figure on those?

The 40 codes are different from the 41 codes so 40 23 is not necessarily the same as 41 23.

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 05, 2017, 01:33:35 AM
That's great info Jack! What sort of handbooks are you finding this in?

With the dial codes the handbooks list A and D but no description, thus the "Dunno" comment?

There is the black numbers only plate with white (glow in the dark) numbers option as well.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 05, 2017, 03:05:08 AM
That's great info Jack! What sort of handbooks are you finding this in?

I guess they are manuals for the field techs. There are green ones and black ones.

The book contains the bulletin shown plus sections for each version. They also include other phones and payphones but nothing older than the late AE 40.

[the images failed security checks]

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 05, 2017, 06:20:06 AM
Dear Jack Ryan:

If you get an opportunity  to, can you scan and email me a copy of the handbook, if it isn't too large, please ?

If you post a copy to CRPF also, please let me know.

You can send me the handbook as an attachment to a email at eburnett1963@gmail.com.

I would be willing to mail reimbursement, if needed for your time and trouble

RotoTech99


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 05, 2017, 07:36:31 AM
Dear Jack:

I also have some AE payphones for which the handbook we have been discussing would be useful in addition to the AE 40 information.

if you get an opportunity, can you email an attachment copy to eburnett1963@gmail.com, please?

I am sorry about the typo in giving you my email address earlier, my email is eburnett1963@gmail.com

Thank you, RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 05, 2017, 10:02:33 AM
The handbooks are already sitting in my "In Tray". I have even bookmarked parts that I could not find on line already that need to be scanned.

All I need is the time to do it. Once done, they will be posted.

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 05, 2017, 10:46:38 AM
dear Jack:

Dear Jack:

Sounds great  :), I can wait for it to post.

I've already copied what you provided so far, it looks good.

I thought about if worse comes to worse, and no coding appears for the early AE 40's, maybe the 41 codes could be adapted; maybe not in the entirety, but as much as could be.

By the way, I got a chuckle out of the "Dunno" comment on the "A" and "D" dial types listings; that is definitely unique.

I wonder if they could have been for Non-AE dials... ISTR AE40's could be outfitted with other supplier's dials; I've seen at least one with a SC dial, myself.

Looking forward to seeing them,
RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 05, 2017, 11:35:34 AM
I have a couple of those around here too so I will check and see if I can find similar info in them. Preferably "similar" but "different" info!

Others have these pocket manuals as well....Stub?

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 05, 2017, 04:13:01 PM
I found some codes in one of the "Automatic Electric Handbooks"

These apply the the 41 model (L-41). 41 is followed by:

07  With Spotter dial for SATT-A
11  Multiline (AE 47) from catalogue data
17  Superimposed Ringing
19  Party line station for SATT-B
23  Standard Type 40

....


This confirms that these are not feature codes but simply catalog numbers, the last two digits should never be separated from the 40 or 41, they should be quoted in full four digits. This is very similar to the catalog numbers for the AE34, where they had the form L–25x ...
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 05, 2017, 04:38:30 PM
Dear Unbeldi:

Jack says he's working on getting the handbooks posted, so while I'm waiting, I'll read over the codes he posted already.

The only ones I thought was a little out of the ordinary was the "A" and "D" on the dial options where he commented "dunno" because "A" and "D" didn't apparently have a dial description.

I think Jack is on the right track, so I'm waiting to see what he turns up.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 05, 2017, 05:17:58 PM
Dear Unbeldi:

Jack says he's working on getting the handbooks posted, so while I'm waiting, I'll read over the codes he posted already.

The only ones I thought was a little out of the ordinary was the "A" and "D" on the dial options where he commented "dunno" because "A" and "D" didn't apparently have a dial description.

I think Jack is on the right track, so I'm waiting to see what he turns up.

Well, I am quite certain that the 40xx and 41xx numbers are not listed as feature codes.   For example, another AE catalog explicitly list the AE47 as having ordering number L–4111.

The codes following the catalog/order numbers are of course feature codes, there has never been a dispute about that, only the proper decoding has been uncertain.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: stub on January 05, 2017, 05:43:14 PM
Terry,
          I don't have any of the pocket handbooks but would love to see them posted for all of us to share !  stub
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 05, 2017, 07:11:17 PM
I wouldn't sit too close to the edge of your chairs.

I have a big intray, a full time job, I edit two journals and have a family.

At the moment I am testing software for an industrial analyser that will soon be shipped out of the country.

So, like many of you, there is a lot of competition for my time. I'll get to it when I can but if I spot further code information, I'll post it.

While you are looking for handbooks, there was one used by MTS that looks really good - anyone have it?

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 05, 2017, 07:22:42 PM
I'm not aware of the MTS one myself, but I wouldn't mind seeing it while I am waiting.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 05, 2017, 07:29:12 PM
I'm not aware of the MTS one myself, but I wouldn't mind seeing it while I am waiting.

Sample pages (not mine)

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 05, 2017, 08:00:53 PM
Nice, I like it, "want more"

Thanks
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 05, 2017, 08:07:31 PM
"Too bad you don't have a copy of the page facing the AE40.

Seriously though, those photos of the Manitoba handbook are very neat.

Thank you, looking forward to more.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 06, 2017, 01:18:52 AM
I have a pile of 5 of these AE pocket manuals but found that only one of them is concerned with Station Apparatus, the others are concerned with outside plant topics such as pole line construction.

I found this which is the same info that Jack posted though I didn't have any reference to the 47 sets:
AE Technical Bulletin 700-40 Issue 1 January 1957
L-4123 Standard Type 40 with circuit label D-53940-A
L-4107 With Spotter dial for SATT-A with circuit label D-530019-A
L-4119 Party line station for SATT-B with circuit label D-530131-A
L-4117 Superimposed Ringing with circuit label D-530031-A

And the AE 50 wall sets:
AE Technical Bulletin 700-50 Issue 2 February 1957
L-5100 Standard Type 50 with circuit label D-53702-A
L-5107 With Spotter dial for SATT-A with circuit label D-530037-A
L-5112 Party line station for SATT-B with circuit label D-530130-A
L-5110 Superimposed Ringing with circuit label D-530032-A

An interesting thing written on the top of these bulletins which pins down the date that AE moved from Chicago to Northlake Illinois:
AUTOMATIC ELECTRIC
Chicago 7, Illinois, USA
After August 15, 1957:
Northlake, Illinois, USA

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 05:02:26 AM
The imformation looks good, Thank you. Can you scan and either email or post to the forum a copy of the one you have that covers telephone apparatus, please?

It would help me more to see the actual handbook, please.

If you can email it to me, please send it to eburnett1963@gmail.com
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 05:11:27 AM
Can you also send a copy of the Technical Bulletin 700-400, please?

if you email it, please send it to eburnett1963@gmail.com, or post it to the forum, please.

Thank you, RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 06, 2017, 11:35:12 AM
A comment about the Manitoba Telephone System pictures posted above by Jack Ryan, The 40 looks to be equipped with a GPO dial which was very common with the provincially owned Telco's in that time frame but is it just me or does it appear to be mounted on the surface of the 40 rather than recessed in flush like normal? Maybe the dial was slightly larger diameter so it wouldn't fit into the recess and a spacer had to be used. I have never seen a dial mounted like that on a 40 before.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 11:50:10 AM
Dear  AE Collector:

I noticed the GPO dial also, and agree with you.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 12:01:08 PM
Dear AE Collector:

I noticed you posted about having one handbook about phones in your reply regarding the AE Handbooks earlier.

Can you post a copy of that particular handbook and/or email me a copy, please?

I believe seeing the handbook itself would help immensely for the forum and me.

BTW: We're getting a lot of good responses on this topic, I look forward to seeing more, and whatever documents and more information that comes of it.

Thank you, RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 06, 2017, 12:21:31 PM
Not scans but to ease your curiosity, this is what the pocket guides looked like. And I will include pictures of the 4 pages showing the 4 variations of the model 40.

I will try to scan this book eventually as I know others are interested in it as well. But, like Jack, I have felt over run with things that need doing for quite some time now. These pocket manuals were designed for installer/repairmen to carry with them and could easily have sections on different models added or removed. This one has sections on the 40, 43, 50, 80, 85, 88, 88A, 90, 183 and several models if AE payphones.

(Click on pictures to enlarge)

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jim S. on January 06, 2017, 12:29:02 PM
LT&T (Lincoln Telephone and Telegraph)  handbooks have an AE40 (and maybe AE34) section. This would be the small bsp handbook style. There may be some in the TCI library.

JMO,
Jim S.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 12:57:22 PM
I don't see a link to the LINCOLN TEL, LTT handbooks in the TCI Library...

I will keep looking, in the meantime, where would it be?

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 01:14:10 PM
Hello, i did not see a Lincoln Tel. Handbook with AE40 and 34 data.
I used their search and didn't find it.


 Thank you for the files, I'm not presently at a computer where I can get to the pictures you sent of the handbook; I will try getting those later.

Can you send pictures of the pages with the dial, ringer and feature codes, please?
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: rdelius on January 06, 2017, 01:57:06 PM
The #10 dial shown on the type 40 from Manatoba  was mounted on a bakelite adaptor ring. this raised up  the dial so it was not flush with the case. The largest part of the dial was larger than the US 3 inch standard.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 02:02:18 PM
Dear Rdelius:

Thanks,that explains a lot about that.

Do you by chance have the Manitoba handbook you could post?
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: rdelius on January 06, 2017, 02:05:08 PM
No  I am in North Carolina.Wish I had a scan my self
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 02:21:43 PM
Dear Rdelius:

I hear Jack is working on his handbook posting.

I know he said he had a "plate full" of stuff, so it might be awhile before he can get more out.

He did give me some "tasty tidbit pages" to start from, though.
My only "snag" is I'm using my Android phone (not a really good full feature one), to get and put them on my primary computer, which is offline presently.

I'm getting all I can though.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 03:44:04 PM
Dear AE Collector:

I got the images you sent, but I'm having a little trouble reading them because of the distortion from the bent pages.

Is there a way you can take them out of the binder, and rescan/rephotograph the pages, please?

I got them saved to my phone, and can transfer them to my computer now.

I added a photo editor to assist me.

If you could take those sheets out, and resend them as flatter images, please, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

RotoTech99

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jim S. on January 06, 2017, 05:46:14 PM
Hello, i did not see a Lincoln Tel. Handbook with AE40 and 34 data.
I used their search and didn't find it.


 Thank you for the files, I'm not presently at a computer where I can get to the pictures you sent of the handbook; I will try getting those later.

Can you send pictures of the pages with the dial, ringer and feature codes, please?


I was pointing out that there was info in the LT&T handbook. If they are on line, the most likely place to find them would be  the TCI library.

Sorry for the confusion.
Jim S.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 06:05:26 PM
the only LT&T Handbook I found was for a Ericofon.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jim S. on January 06, 2017, 06:54:55 PM
the only LT&T Handbook I found was for a Ericofon.

That is 1 telephone "practice" in the section on "station apparatus" of the handbook. The LT&T book has dozens of telephone practices. I think the practices came from the manfactor and are branded LT&T

The small telephone "handbooks/Practices"  are comprised  of a cover , mounting posts, and loose-leaf sections. You can change out section easily as needed, This is true of all company "practices" bound in this manner.


 LT&T had telephone  "practices" covering many different phones from a variety of makers. I think they also had WE stuff. The pages of the "practices" for all of the phones are all marked "LT&T".

JMO.
Jim S.

You may want to do a broad "AE"  search in the library. I would search the entire depository. You might find some leads that way.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 07:17:39 PM
I already did, and it didn't turn up much more than I noted already; the only other LT&T items were newsletters for them.

I also tried variations on that; not much turned up.

I would've expected to see more, but I know it's a work in progress with more coming, so I'll keep watching
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 06, 2017, 07:38:07 PM
A comment about the Manitoba Telephone System pictures posted above by Jack Ryan, The 40 looks to be equipped with a GPO dial which was very common with the provincially owned Telco's in that time frame but is it just me or does it appear to be mounted on the surface of the 40 rather than recessed in flush like normal? Maybe the dial was slightly larger diameter so it wouldn't fit into the recess and a spacer had to be used. I have never seen a dial mounted like that on a 40 before.

Clarification: The dial is a Siemens Brothers No 10 which was licensed to other manufacturers in the UK and elsewhere (but not in Canada). The GPO used that dial as did many others so it is not really a GPO dial any more than it is an MTS dial.

There were lots of No 10 dials used in Canada; they were originally introduced with British exchange equipment that was used by some independents. The No 10 mount is derived from the Mercedes dial and is not compatible with the normal North American mount. To use a No 10 dial on a North American telephone such as those from Northern Electric and Automatic Electric, an adaptor is required. The adaptor often causes the dial to mount abnormally high.

Attached is the same adaptor used to mount a No 10 dial on a Uniphone.

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 07:56:28 PM
Dear Jack:

I would've never guessed it was a Seimens dial.

When  you start posting your handbook scans, can you please have them laying flat  for readability, I was sent some handbook scans, but they were curved from being in a handbook, so some of it wasn't very readable.

I've asked the sender if they can resend them in a flatter profile, so hopefully that will help.

BTW:If the codes you sent me earlier were on one or two pages, can you send those while I wait to see the rest, I'm still curious about the dial codes A and D you commented "dunno" on.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 06, 2017, 08:47:43 PM
They were simply pictures of 4 of the pages to give everyone an idea what the pocket books are like, not the final product that everyone will have to live with. When they are scanned they will be flat and complete including all of the pages rather than just a few pages.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2017, 09:17:55 PM
OK, that sounds good to me, I  can work with the sample pages for the time being.

I will enjoy seeing the finished results once they are ready.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 07, 2017, 01:06:41 PM
Based on the info Jack Ryan provided, I wonder if the last 2 or 3 characters after the feature, dial, ringer, and handset cord codes could be the color codes he briefly mentioned in Reply 46 of this topic?

I think it would make sense; I had always thought of it as being part of the first 4 or 5 digits/characters, myself.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 07, 2017, 02:19:02 PM
Based on the info Jack Ryan provided, I wonder if the last 2 or 3 characters after the feature, dial, ringer, and handset cord codes could be the color codes he briefly mentioned in Reply 46 of this topic?

I think it would make sense; I had always thought of it as being part of the first 4 or 5 digits/characters, myself.

RotoTech99

Guessing is no intelligent way to approach the decoding process.  You need to collect examples of codings and record observed features and analyze them for consistency without prejudice.
Without that it makes no more sense than guessing anything else.

The list that Jack provides for the first letter after the catalog number is even larger than given.
One has to examine whether AE over time even applied the same system for marking after the catalog number.

The philosophy for the catalog number is very similar to the way Western Electric labeled variations of the 300-series sets, namely by general service type for which the set was intended to be used.
For example the rough correspondence is this:

AE      WECo
4123    302     standard basic set for straight line or party line service
4107    304     party line service with party identification for message accounting/toll ticketing
4119    -         ditto, just a different AMA method for 4-party full selective service, WECo did not use spotter dials
4117    306     full-selective 4-party line service, or 8-party line semi-selective service with electron tube
           307     Local battery, and LBT-CBS service,  AE didn't seem to interested in selling telephones for this service,
                     as they also had automatic switching business, but they probably existed too.
4111    410    Multi-line service


I am not sure which of the two SATT methods is A and B, I might have them interchanged.  I think SATT-A is resistive and SATT-B with spotter dial only.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 07, 2017, 02:55:35 PM
Dear Unbeldi:


I meant to say that I wondered based on what Jack provided in Reply 46 that comes if the last two or so characters after the model, dial, ringer and handset cord codes could be COLOR OPTIONS instead of specific color code?

I've saved a list of AE40 codes off of every one I get or see.

Yes, I got to admit there's a lot of codes, some shorter or longer that don't necessarily follow a "set pattern", but I think Jack has came closest to having something that makes reasonable sense.

I'm going wait for Jack to post his handbooks including the color options before determining more.

I think I've seen something regarding color options in the 4055 and TA-57 catalogs, but at the moment, they don't "ring a bell" as to what" precisely.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 07, 2017, 03:24:55 PM
For the AE 40-type sets, the catalogs do not specify color option codes.  They simply ask to specify color and trim when ordering.  The color names are listed in the 1944 version (D) of Catalog 4055.

In April 1940, AE published Circular 1663 (Your Telephone in Color) which features the colors in pictures.   But it is unlikely that they made very many color phones until after the war.  The pre-war color 40s appear to be exceedingly rare, The vast majority (if one can even speak of 'vast') of color AE-40s were made in the 1950s.

The version of TA-57 that is available from TCI is a Canadian catalog, and does not list the Type 40 anymore. Apparently manufacture was discontinued in Canada at that time.  However, the Type 47 is still listed, the multi-line version, for which AE did adopt a specific options sequence, as shown in the following screen shot. It remains to be seen whether these 4111s were still made at Phillips Works, or whether they distributed Northlake sets in Canada.

This suggests the format that Jack mentioned, however, it only lists three options for the dial: M, E, C.  This does not account for the other observed letters in that position: A, D, G,   In particular, A is very common

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 07, 2017, 03:47:31 PM
Dear Unbeldi:

I checked and see what you mean in my copies of TA-57. My 4055 catalog is the 4055D. I am looking to see if I can spot the A dial code... I think its referred to in a catalog, but which I can't recall.

Being a "common" code, it ought to appear someplace; could it be from AE34 codes, and carried over to the Type 40?

I think we'll have to wait for AE Collector's and Jack Ryan to post their handbooks for a more definite answer, but I'm glad we're discussing the known and to be confirmed aspects for now.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 07, 2017, 03:57:07 PM
Dear Unbeldi:
In my TA-57 catalog, for the Type 83. using a 51 type dial The dial codes are: "A" for a 1 to 0 dial, "B" for a dial cover (dummy blank), and "C" for a number/letter plate.

I'm looking on my computer at my other catalogs to see what else turns up
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 07, 2017, 04:15:48 PM
I seriously doubt that such handbooks are going to provide any more answers as to set coding. They are made for installers, not sales.

Type 34 sets didn't use the same coding, and as far as other types is concerned it is speculation.  One observation however, seems to be that toward the end of the 1950, AE did unify feature codes across product lines, but by then the AE40 was just about to be discontinued.
The latest sets I have recorded are October 1958 for the 4123, and January 1959 for the 4111, both made in Northlake.
I think Terry mentioned in the past that the type 40 was still made for military applications into the 1960s.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 07, 2017, 04:29:38 PM
Dear Unbeldi:

After checking, I'll concur with you on this.

Possibly, AE Collector's and Jack's handbooks will tell us more.

One thought I had is that since a multiline set like the type 47 was multiline, its dials had different contact arrangements, couldn't the "M", "E" and "C" be used to differentiate between Type 40 and Type 47 dial options?

This is purely a educated guess on my part, but it would seem sensible.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 07, 2017, 07:59:54 PM
Dear AE Collector:
Thank you for being patient with my questions and commentary on the coding for the AE40; slowly I'm catching on to the systemfor how it should work.

I've got a list of AE40 codes I plan to research more once the handbooks post.

It looks like the handbook's might come in handy for my research as well.

Thank you,
RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 07, 2017, 08:08:43 PM
Dear Jack Ryan:

I wanted to thank you for being patient with my questions and commentary on the AE40 handbooks.

Slowly, I think I'm getting the grasp of the coding and how it works; once the handbooks come out, I've also got some lists of AE40 codes I plan to research.

Thanks Again,
RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 07, 2017, 08:51:04 PM
I think we'll have to wait for AE Collector's and Jack Ryan to post their handbooks for a more definite answer, but I'm glad we're discussing the known and to be confirmed aspects for now.

I seriously doubt that such handbooks are going to provide any more answers as to set coding. They are made for installers, not sales.

Agreed, the big revelation in these pocket guides is the 4 different 4 digit "L" numbers and their purpose. There isn't anything else there to help with this project. The sales manuals may reveal a little bit more with some studying but nothing is going to come easy. I think the comparison of coding on actual 40's (and likely 50's as well) and observation of how they are equipped will ultimately reveal the most.

While continuing this investigative work I think a side project is trying to narrow manufacture dates down of AE40 examples using the patent labels as Unbeldi discusses in this topic about an AE 34.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17387.0

For quite a few years I have been keeping an Excel list of AE base codes, observed features, codes found on various components, patent decal info etc. The list started out simple but the extent of the info in it just kept growing.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 07, 2017, 09:07:20 PM
Dear AE Collector:

I'd still like to see the handbooks personally, which I think will give me plenty to work with to start, then advance as more is added.

Ive copied a couple of the  patents earlier; I'm not sure if I have the ones you mentioned, though.

The link to the related topic is interesting, I have to admit.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 07, 2017, 09:29:46 PM
I wouldn't say that beyond revealing the four L numbers and their purpose, that there's nothing else the handbooks could provide towards the topic; it might lead to something useful.

Maybe not right away, but in its own time, yes.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 01:21:53 AM
Okay, here are a couple of screen shots from my Excel list of AE 40 Base Codes. I see now that one of the last things that I added to the list was the individual patent numbers columns and in the 40, 43 & 47 section I have only one single set listed with all of the patents. Quite a few of these phones are mine so I need to go back to add this info.

Prior to adding columns for each patent I was recording the number (quantity) of patents listed on the phones tag which in hind sight probably wasn't of a lot of value.

What is listed here is the various sets of codes that follow the L-4xxx number on the base which we can play with deciphering.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 07:42:59 AM
Very good and informative, that should help along with the handbooks.

My particular AE40 was a local battery set that was rebuilt to a common battery configuration.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 08, 2017, 10:50:11 AM
My particular AE40 was a local battery set that was rebuilt to a common battery configuration.

Really?   What is the code number on the bottom ?
Which induction coil # did it use?
How do you know it was rebuilt ?
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 08, 2017, 10:57:09 AM
Okay, here are a couple of screen shots from my Excel list of AE 40 Base Codes. I see now that one of the last things that I added to the list was the individual patent numbers columns and in the 40, 43 & 47 section I have only one single set listed with all of the patents. Quite a few of these phones are mine so I need to go back to add this info.

Prior to adding columns for each patent I was recording the number (quantity) of patents listed on the phones tag which in hind sight probably wasn't of a lot of value.

What is listed here is the various sets of codes that follow the L-4xxx number on the base which we can play with deciphering.

Terry

You don't need to record all the patent numbers on each label, just record the form number in the lower left corner of the label,  typically:  D-xxxxxx-Axx

[PS:  sorry, I see you already did that...  they are listed.  I will compare with my list and ask you to only look up the ones I don't have.  I'll list those that I do have too.]

The listing shows that the coding format changed over time, especially going from the 40xx to the 41xx order numbers, this is also what I have observed.
The 40xx format is much closer to the 34A3 type of labeling.  They seem to have revamped that after the war.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 11:09:51 AM
So let's talk about what I have called the second and third codes, the (usually) 3 letter/digit codes following the L4xxx code.

Keep in mind that there are bound to be codes on my list that aren't correct for various reasons. Sometimes the stamping on the bases is very difficult to read and sometimes it is non existent. Sometimes it is damaged where part of it can clearly be read and itgerother parts can't. Much of the info was emailed to me so different people were doing the interpreting and then the possibility of typos and mis-interpretation exists.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the chances that AE kept their coding consistent through the 20 year run of these phones is likely 0. And, there would have been some phones with additional or different features that may have added a letter or number to the coding that wasn't there on most other phones.

A quick look at the pattern of the "second code" shows that in most cases the initial letter of the second code is A, B, D or E though I also see an H and a L.

Logically from what we have seen from AE this first letter would represent the dial. But Jack listed this for dial codes:


A    Dunno
M   Number only dial
E    Numbers and letters
C    Dial blank
D    Dunno

There is no B listed here and my codes list from phones has absolutely NO "C" for Dial Blank on it. Some of these phones must have originated from AE as sets equipped with a blank. I will study my list further for that. It looks more like the order code doesn't directly transfer to the Base Code.

And here is the chart previously posted for 47 (L-4111) sets.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 11:21:33 AM
Dear Unbeldi:

The original code from the bottom as best I can read was N 4069 JK7.

I did the rebuild using a AE Hookswitch, induction coil and condenser for a common battery set.

I have the induction coil in front of me, and the part number. I do recall it had the jumper link in a different position than the induction  coil for the common battery set, and the hookswitch lacked the resistor assembly used with the common battery set.

I'll put the part numbers in another post as my phone I'm posting from is giving me a little trouble with that

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 11:35:22 AM
Moving on to Ringers. Quite obviously the part of the second code after the dial letter is the ringer frequency. But, why all the "0's" particularly with some of the 40xx sets, almost for sure they used "0" to represent SL. Later you start to see "SL" in this position of the code rather than "0".

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 11:38:15 AM
This looks exciting! Note some sets have a 4th letter in the second code position. It is virtually always a colored telephone. A "Color Code" on colored sets but not on black sets. Missing on some examples it was probably added at some point during the production of AE 40's.

Here are the colors that I have codes for. I need to find my AE catalogs showing the colored sets to confirm these color names:

D - Jade Green
E - Old Ivory
F - Chinese Red
J - Nile Green

I have a "light blue" set listed as code - J on my Excel list but I don't think there was a light blue 40. There was the "Orchid" color that turns a beautiful light blue color with age in most instances. This one on my Excel list was likely a Nile Green (light green) set seen on eBay or somewhere that was difficult to interpret the color.

 I have now confirmed from my list that the "light blue" set was a phone seen on eBay thus I have very little detailed info about it. The color of it was almost certainly interpreted incorrectly. I have updated my list to show it as a Nile Green 40 now. My first use of the "color code" knowledge we have just discovered.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 11:59:34 AM
Dear AE Collector & Unbeldi:

I apologize for it not appearing in my last post, but here's the info. off the components from my converted local battery set:

Induction coil D-283022 with a link between "2"and "3" (instead of between "4" and "6" as on a common battery one).
.5mf condenser
Hookswitch lacks resistor used with CB set.
Number on base as best I could read "N4069-JK7".

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 12:10:04 PM
Dear AE Collector:

Excellent, I know you still have to verify them, but that tells me more for sure.

I hope you like my converted local battery AE40 info. I provided; it was for Unbeldi, but I made a error posting, so you received it, as well.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 12:15:27 PM
Dear AE Collector:

I hope you like my converted local battery AE40 info. I provided; it was for Unbeldi, but I made a error posting, so you received it, as well.

I just went over my Excel list and note that I don't have ANY 4069 sets listed so most likely that is the valid "First Base Code" representing a local battery AE40. I can add your set to my list at some point though I will need to get as much info on it as possible from you.

Here is some more from my Excel list.
The codes found on all AE 50's on my Excel list.
The codes found on all AE 47's on my Excel list.

I have acquired several more AE 47's as well as some 40's and 50's that I know have not yet made it into my Excel lists.

Terry


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 12:28:33 PM
Dear AE Collector:

Do you have a list of the local battery AE40's? I could read for sure "4069"and "JK7" but the prefix wasn't entirely readable.

it looked like there was code between that, but I couldn't read it.

it did have a dial blank, originally though.


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 12:47:47 PM
Dear AE Collector:

Here is what I have from my earlier posts:

The model code as best I can read is N4069-JK7; the damaged gold label listed 6 patents.

I don't have the diagram as it was damaged, and mostly missing.

The induction coil is D-283022 with a jumper between 2 and 3, instead of 4 and 6 as for a common battery set
the condenser is D-68270A, rated at .5mf. The hook lacks the resistor the CB set uses.

Attached is the photo I sent Unbeldi.

The set had chrome handset cap bands, and chrome hookswitch mount blocks originally.

I will send a photo of the set as it is now, after conversion momentarily



Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 12:55:50 PM
I don't have any phones listed along with an indication that they are or were local battery sets. Of course they could have been but just didn't get identified as such. I think that local battery 40 sets would be a very low percentage of all 40's out there. I will work with you to get your local battery set into my list starting with the info and picture you have provided.

So you think that there is a code "second code" missing or unreadable between the N-4069 and the JK7? Sometimes a very faint or worn off code can be ready by changing the angle and amout of light present to see the outline of where the code was.

The JK7 code sounds much more like a "third code". An interesting thing that I have seen many times with the third code is quite often the two letters, in this case JK are stamped on the receiver and transmitter capsules as well as on the base. Of course receiver and transmitter capsules can very easily be replaced or swapped around between phones so not matching each other or the third base code is very common. BUT, I have seen them match each other and/or the two letters of the third base code too often for it to be coincidence.

Now why would a transmitter and receiver need literally hundreds of different possible codes on them? I'm sure there were a few "improvements" to their design over the years but not hundreds over a 20 year time frame. That makes me wonder if there could possibly be a date code lurking in there?

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 01:01:52 PM
Dear AE Collector:

I will check that and post photos, be right back
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 01:09:58 PM
Dear AE Collector:

Here are the photos of my transmitter and receiver capsules

Also included are the photos of my converted AE40

The two letter code was PB on the transmitter, and HP on the receiver.

These were with the set as I received it prior to conversion, and retained in the conversion.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 01:31:31 PM
Here is a better photo of the transmitter capsule.

BTW: I tried your suggestion on holding the base at angles to try reading the code better, I didn't get any better luck reading whatight be a third middle code.

.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 02:26:25 PM
Okay, I will start entering that info in awhile and get back to you with any additional questions. One will be all the codes on each coil of the ringer and resistance of each coil if any of the codes are there and readable. You said the phone had a dial blank when you got it. The handset cord looks to be a straight rubber cord? Was there a base cord with it? It has a single large capacitor mounted to the baseplate? Can you read any of the info on it?

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 03:17:53 PM
No, there wasn't a handset cord with it, nor a ringer or line cord. Just what I noted earlier.

Here is a what I added in the conversion :

D-56515A straight line ringer with one D-283749A and D-283750A coil.
The condenser is a D-68849A, the induction coil is D-282996A (regular).

The condenser in the dual condenser for ringing is .4 MF, and the talking one is 4 mf.

The D-56515A ringer is rated for a .4 MF condenser

There was no base condenser in the original configuration.

The handset bands are chrome, I added a chrome lift bar in place of the chrome blocks, and a chrome fingerwheel.

The straight rubber handset cord i added is NOS, I saw a tag, but it was badly worn. My main concern was it being useable, which thankfully it is.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 03:58:38 PM
Any idea what year this AE40 is from?
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 03:59:56 PM
It has chrome bands, chrome finger wheel and a true butlers handle
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 04:18:05 PM
Can you show what the set looks like, please?

It looks like a 40xx series, As some of the other forum members have pointed out, most of the information coming out is on the 41xx series.

I couldn't give a guess on it,  but I  am curious about the "4R" code; it looks like part of it got inadvertently clipped in the photo.

Can you resend that photo with the full ""4R" code at the top of your photo showing, please?

Thank you, RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 04:24:20 PM
Okay RotoTech99, I have entered your 40 as it was when you received it. A few more questions:
The wiring is cloth not plastic?
The phone case had the Bakelite tabs to mount the dial, not the steel bracket?
The original chrome plunger blocks, did they have a hole in the side of each for a Buttler Handle or not?
Is the tag on the base the gold water transfer type or a paper label? That picture is blurry.y
Does the tag list Chicago, Chicago 7 or something else?
You said 6 patent numbers? Is that 6 plus the Des #?
Can you tell me what is printed on the condenser other than the D-68270-A number.

Thanks....Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 04:28:22 PM
Yeah, need a lot more info to try to narrow down the manufacture date at this point?

Quick items to check are cloth or plastic insulated wiring inside? Cloth = old/early & Plastic = Newer/later.

On the stamped decal does it say Automatic Electric Company Chicago, Chicago 7, Northlake or something else?
AE's prior to 1943 (approximately) should have "Automatic Electric Company Chicago" on the base label (if made in the USA).
AE's made from 1943 (approximately) and on should have "Automatic Electric Company Chicago 7" on the base label.
AE's made August 15, 1957 and on should have Northlake Illinois rather than Chicago 7 on the base label.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 04:40:27 PM
More pics
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 04:42:27 PM
Pic
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 04:43:10 PM
Pic
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 04:43:56 PM
Pic
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 04:53:37 PM
My AE40 prior to conversion has the label with "Chicago 7, I'll.

It also says "Automatic Electric" made in USA.

it also has a "DES number which is missing, as i mentioned the decal has damage; I'll retake a photo and post it again, hopefully more readable.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: HarrySmith on January 08, 2017, 04:55:49 PM
JRS-
The last AE I worked on had a date on the condenser, the only date. Yours is next to the ringer, have you checked it for a date? Also I see the wiring diagram tucked in there, they are dated sometimes.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 05:09:43 PM
Dear AE Collector:

I couldn't get a clean photo on my gold label, but it did say Automatic Electric, Chicago 7, USA, and made in USA on it. It has the DES number, though it was mostly missing as was some other info. That label is still on my AE40, I haven't changed it.

It did have the 6 patent numbers, plus the DES number
The condenser said Automatic Electric Co. with BN printed below it.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 08, 2017, 05:13:20 PM
Any idea what year this AE40 is from?

Too bad the stamp is so much corroded away, but at least it has the higher numbered patents visible.  In general the stamped patent listings are the earliest, during WW-II some sets had paper labels, after that it was always water decals, I believe, for those made in Chicago anyways.  Phillips Works may have not had decals.

I think this set was made before November 1939.

It is interesting that these early sets include a patent by Siemens & Halske (US1687117 1928 1925 Webber S&H--Telephone Desk Set). The number on the stamp is partly destroyed, but I know it is there.  The patent may be the first to use two cradle rests, with two independent plungers, one on each side. At least that is my interpretation of the situation.


PS:  here are the patents that I recognize on this stamping:

US1615311 1927 1923 Obergfell AE--Impulse-sending device
US1642822 1927 1924 Obergfell AE--Calling Device
US1687117 1928 1925 Webber S&H--Telephone Desk Set
US1689598 1928 1925 Pye AEL--Telephone Substation Circuits
US1738919 1929 1927 Obergfell AEL--Telephone Desk Set
US1878800 1932 1931 Obergfell AEL--Electromagnetic Device (induction coil)
US2068700 1937 1935 Peterson AEL--Calling Device
US2133469 1938 1936 Obergfell AEL--Calling Device
US2149628 1939 1935 Pye AEL--Telephone Transmitter

There are a couple more at far left, that are unreadable, but I think I may have another copy of this label somewhere, I have seen it before. Perhaps Terry has one too.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 05:25:11 PM
Dear AE Collector:

What can you determine from this code "jrs" posted for his black AE40 with chrome fingerwheel, lift butler, handset bands, and what appears to be a Extensicord: SN4022 AO 4RS?

I gave you all the information I could locate, I hope it reached you OK.

BTW: my converted AE40's decal did indeed have six patent numbers plus the the DES number.

It also said Automatic Electric, Chicago 7, USA Made in USA on it.

Apologies if I've been repetitious with this, I have to check each time a new question comes up.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 05:42:37 PM
I think this set was made before November 1939.

A very early set. The cloth wiring is early but the steel dial mounting bracket to me says very early. AE 50's sometimes have missing plunger buttons as they were removed to remove the set from the wall but didn't get put back together properly and eventually "wandered off" being small parts. But if those parts of the AE 50 are easily lost imagine if the special brass nut that threads up into the bottom of the metal dial bracket leaving a threaded hole for the front base mounting screw were lost!

Another "early" indicator if it still has its handset (and it ISN'T a chrome banded handset) is if the handset caps have black painted grooved brass bands OR grooves cut into the bakelite caps to look like the grooved metal bands. I think these Type 41 handsets initially had the brass bands just like the Type 38 handsets on 1A, 34 & 35 sets but being introduced just as war was about to break out quickly led them to remove the brass bands on basic trim phones cutting similar grooves into the bakelite caps instead. Then someone must have asked why the grooves were needed at all so they ditched that in favour of the much more familiar smooth caps with a small single step molded into the side.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 08, 2017, 05:48:53 PM
A very early set. The cloth wiring is early but the steel dial mounting bracket to me says very early. AE 50's sometimes have missing plunger buttons as they were removed to remove the set from the wall but didn't get put back together properly and eventually "wandered off" being small parts. But if those parts of the AE 50 are easily lost imagine if the special brass nut that threads up into the bottom of the metal dial bracket leaving a threaded hole for the front base mounting screw were lost!

Another "early" indicator if it still has its handset (and it ISN'T a chrome banded handset) is if the handset caps have black painted grooved brass bands OR grooves cut into the bakelite caps to look like the grooved metal bands. I think these Type 41 handsets initially had the brass bands just like the Type 38 handsets on 1A, 34 & 35 sets but being introduced just as war was about to break out quickly led them to remove the brass bands on basic trim phones cutting similar grooves into the bakelite caps instead. Then someone must have asked why the grooves were needed at all so they ditched that in favour of the much more familiar smooth caps with a small single step molded into the side.

Terry

Yes indeed.  Somewhere I have a picture of a 41 type handset with painted brass bands.  Perhaps it was even from the Forum.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 06:00:24 PM
Dear AE Collector:

What can you determine from this code "jrs" posted for his black AE40 with chrome fingerwheel, lift butler, handset bands, and what appears to be a Extensicord: SN4022 AO 4RS?

I have one SN4022 set listed but it doesn't have the steel dial bracket in it. I have two quite closely numbered SN4020's listed and one has enough info to indicate that it also had the steel bracket and an oronge ink stamped label like this one has.

Does this phone have chrome bands? I didn't notice them in any picture.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 06:01:17 PM
Dear AE Collector:

Here are the answers to your earlier questions, I thought my reply had posted with those, for which I apologize for overlooking those.

The original wiring was cloth in the local battery version before I converted it.

The wiring for the conversion was changed to plastic on all but the condenser and ringer.

The condenser is part D-68849A and has 4mf for talking and .4mf for ringing, and is marked "Automatic Electric" BN on its side.
The D-56515A ringer uses a .4mf condenser.

The hookswitch blocks were chrome with no holes for lift butler, and the plungers are chrome. The dial mounts are molded into the base.

The gold water decal reads Automatic Electric, Chicago 7. USA- Made In USA.

It has 6 patent numbers plus the DES number on it.Since it is damaged,it's hard to read.


I hope I haven't missed anything this time.




8
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 06:09:49 PM
Dear AE Collector:

Yes, "jrs" said there were chrome handset bands on his.

I went back and answered your questions posted earlier; I tried to post them earlier, but I guess the system overlooked them, not posting them right away.

Kindest apologies for the inconvenience.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 06:11:03 PM
Yes indeed.  Somewhere I have a picture of a 41 type handset with painted brass bands.  Perhaps it was even from the Forum.

Here ya go. Not from CRPF but from my kitchen.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 08, 2017, 06:14:44 PM
Yes indeed.  Somewhere I have a picture of a 41 type handset with painted brass bands.  Perhaps it was even from the Forum.

It is also interesting that the set already has the 'butler' handle.  The patent wasn't assigned until May 1940 (US2200810 1940 1938 Sengebusch AEL--Desk Telephone Set), so either the set was converted later, or they installed it anyways, even without holding the patent.

There is a way to test this.  A complaint of the early handles was that they slipped out easily when not carried carefully.  The two side bars with the pivot stubs/axles at the end could easily be pushed together and this caused the set to fall off.  In a later patent they corrected this so that the pivot rod stubs locked into the cradle block when lifted.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 06:14:45 PM
Chrome handset bands.  Not original?
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 06:16:32 PM
And yes, the handle slips out easily. I never pick it up by the handle!
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 06:16:58 PM
Dear AE Collector:

I've seen  brass bands done that way before, and had a couple AE40's with that, myself.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 06:22:07 PM
It is also interesting that the set already has the 'butler' handle.  The patent wasn't assigned until May 1940 (US2200810 1940 1938 Sengebusch AEL--Desk Telephone Set), so either the set was converted later, or they installed it anyways, even without holding the patent.

There is a way to test this.  A complaint of the early handles was that they slipped out easily when not carried carefully.  The two side bars with the pivot stubs/axles at the end could easily be pushed together and this caused the set to fall off.  In a later patent they corrected this so that the pivot rod stubs locked into the cradle block when lifted.

It would seem quite likely to me that they would go ahead and use something newly designed even if they didn't yet have the patent. I always used to see Patent Pending or Patent applied for on things though maybe not telephones necesarily.

I didn't realize that they had corrected the original flaw in the design. The pins on the handle must have incorporated a "key" so that he handle had to be inserted in "stored" position and then when rotated into the "in use" position the pins couldn't pull out of the blocks. I have never seen that version though I haven't seen very many Butler Handles. In reality it may never have gotten off the ground as the more familiar "carry bar" handle must have arrived very soon afterwards and everything likely went in that direction from then on.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 08, 2017, 06:22:42 PM
And yes, the handle slips out easily. I never pick it up by the handle!

Here is how they corrected the problem in 1944:  US2398850 1946 1944 Obergfell AEL--Desk Telephone Set
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 06:27:23 PM
Chrome handset bands.  Not original?

Well they may not be but they certainly could be as well. Chrome was an option right from the beginning as far as I can tell. Even on the previous type 38 handset that all had black brass bands, chromed bands were an option.

The number card is the correct one for an early AE40 as well. The smallest are to write the phone number. There were medium sized and then large sized areas to write the number on later number cards.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 08, 2017, 06:29:56 PM
It would seem quite likely to me that they would go ahead and use something newly designed even if they didn't yet have the patent. I always used to see Patent Pending or Patent applied for on things though maybe not telephones necesarily.

I didn't realize that they had corrected the original flaw in the design. The pins on the handle must have incorporated a "key" so that he handle had to be inserted in "stored" position and then when rotated into the "in use" position the pins couldn't pull out of the blocks. I have never seen that version though I haven't seen very many Butler Handles. In reality it may never have gotten off the ground as the more familiar "carry bar" handle must have arrived very soon afterwards and everything likely went in that direction from then on.

Terry

Good point, I think I have not seen that patent show up in a decal yet.  I have to devise an easier way to present the data... Not possible today.

Indeed, the new lifting bar, or at least a version of it, was applied for in 1945, and published in 1947:  US2430276 1947 1945 Candy AEL--Desk Telephone Lifting Device
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 06:40:51 PM
I can see in the drawings on the patent for the improved Butlers Handoe how they added a protrusion to the handle and a keyed slit in the plunger blocks for it to engage with. Also a protrusion on the back edge of the plunger blocks to prevent the handle from rotating further than straight upwards. I have never seen these type of blocks or the keyed handle in existence.


I also note a period of just over two years between what is likely he date submitted and the date the patent was approved. So if that is typical it would seem normal to begin using the new design long before a patent was granted in most cases.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 06:48:32 PM
Close up of butler's handle
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 07:02:00 PM
Dear jrs1958:

The photos you sent, and the current one look pretty good.

I think your information and photos will help this topic a lot, thank you
RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 07:22:37 PM
Let me know if you'd like any other details or photos
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 07:28:25 PM
Do you feel like opening it up and giving me everything you can find about it to add to my list? Is it as it was when you bought it? Being a very early model it may be good to add to my excel records.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 07:39:01 PM
Just let me know what details you need.  I did post two pictures earlier of the insides but will gladly get you anything else for your records.  You all have graciously answered all my questions with my AE34 and this one, so I'm more than glad to assist.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 07:43:28 PM
Dear AE Collector:

What do you think the model number would be for my converted AE 40 from the information I gave you on my set's part numbers and configuration? I realize the existing number probably wouldn't apply, but I'm curious what you think it would be.

Also, would black have a letter color code?

I apologize for the delay in providing that.

The discussion is getting good on this topic now, I like that.

Please let me know,
RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 07:45:23 PM
And yes, it is exactly as I bought it.  It was not an "EBay" purchase.  It was from a a long time owner.  I believe it is an unaltered original, not a "made up" phone.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 07:49:01 PM
Yes pictures are quite hi res.
-Can't quite read what is stamped on back if dial S60C?
-Has AECO in diamond on back if dial Does it say Made in USA under that?
-The "D" number on the paper schematic
-Does it have a cloth covered black 3 conductor base cord?
-It likely would have the 24A36 dial that has quiet clicks as you wind it up. I am not certain how else to confirm the dial type.

Start with that and I will have some more ??'s soon.

Terry

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 07:55:53 PM
Dear jrs1958:

I like your AE40, It if you will excuse an expression is the Cat's Meow in my opinion, meaning I really like it.

My AE40 that I converted from LB to CB came from a friend nearly a year ago; it took time getting the parts for conversion, but now I have a  nice AE40 with chrome trim I'm pretty happy with.

If you'd like to see it, its posted in the topic.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 08:04:45 PM
Yes, looks very likely to be a very early unaltered AE40.

A couple more items to check:
Number on induction coil if you can see it. Virtually always D-282996-A. Is it stamped in oronge ink?
Any writing on the large condenser? If nothing else the value is frequently on the end by the terminals.
Transmitter and receiver capsule writing or post a picture of them.

I think that is everything.

Thanks.....Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 08:14:53 PM
Dear AE Collector:

What do you think the model number would be for my converted AE 40 from the information I gave you on my set's part numbers and configuration? I realize the existing number probably wouldn't apply, but I'm curious what you think it would be.

Also, would black have a letter color code?

I apologize for the delay in providing that.

The discussion is getting good on this topic now, I like that.

Please let me know,
RotoTech99

I don't think I have near enough info to even take a shot at what model your 40 would now be. I notice that as well as the "standard" 4123 models I have quite a few 4023 models listed. This makes me think that potentially the 4023/4123 sets are similar but with whatever made the 40/41 change, likely the ringer design as Jack said. So depending on which ringer type you have, and assuming a conventional dial it could be either of those. Of course we still have more codes to decipher and aren't sure if chrome trim shows up in the third code or in any if the codes. Still no idea about the first letter of the first code even.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 08:16:41 PM
Pic
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 08:17:28 PM
Pic
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 08:18:18 PM
Pic
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 08:19:15 PM
Pic
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 08:20:27 PM
Pic
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 08:21:15 PM
Pic
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 08:22:13 PM
Pic
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 08:28:59 PM
Dear AE Collector:

My dial is a AE51/51A with a "metro plate", with two pulsing and three shunt contacts, and a strap across two of the contacts.

The letters are black, the numbers red.  The "0" position says operator above it, no "Q" or "Z" designation. The dial also has a silencing pawl so it makes no sound when first turned.

Dunno if that helps any, but maybe it could.
RotoTech99

The ringer is a D-56515A straight line biased ringer like the ones in Cat.TA-57.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 08:29:13 PM
AE collector, hope these help.  Dial is an S60C. Has AECO diamond with made in USA under that. Dial is quiet when winding.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 08:31:29 PM
To Roto Tech 99.  You Have a beautiful phone as well!
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 08, 2017, 08:33:16 PM
If I found a local battery AE 40, I would certainly not gut it to make a new set.
I don't recall having seen an LB AE 40, and having one would be precious.

I don't think it makes sense to assign a new number to a gutted set.

AE also made special Type 40 sets for PAX systems. Do we have any details on those ?  I do remember them being in the catalogs, but without details, IIRC.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 08:38:48 PM
Dear jsg1958:

I'm venturing a guess, but it sounds like a 51 or 51A dial, those are the ones I know with that feature; There is a SILENCING PAWL that prevents the ratcheting sound when you wind (first turn) the dial. it's visible as a small tab near the top left of the fingerwheel mount plate when the fingerwheel is removed.

RotoTech99

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 08:42:10 PM
I am pretty certain that these are the 11 patent numbers associated with that oronge ink stamped decal that has some completely unreadable and others somewhat unreadable:

1615311   1642822   1687117   1688475   1689598   1719992   1738919   1878800   2068700   2133469   2149628

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 08:54:22 PM
Dear Unbeldi:

The old LB guts were tested, and weren't reusable, and I didn't see it as logical to scrap it, having no other use; As I was needing an AE40, it made sense to rebuild with new internals for me, and use the existing
components to finish it out that was good (the handset and its components).

I was taught to repurpose things where I could, and if it made sense to. As my specialty is mainly single line phones,and my LB set came similar to a CB set, it made sense to me to convert it.

I have it working nicely now, so I believe I met my need on it.

If I get any good local battery sets in.the future, I'll do everything I can to put them to use, or find someone who can.


RotoTech99




Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 08:56:01 PM
Second Code Field - 4th Character (when present) is a Color Code

And back to colors. I went through the 4055, 4055A, 4055C & 4055D AE catalogs and came up with this consistent list of available colors though the last 4 colors listed showed as unavailable in AE 35 and AE 50 wall phones. I will add the base code letter for the ones that we know. I left these in the most common order that they were listed in the manuals. The manuals didn't suggest ordering letters for the colors but rather just specifying the color desired. One could make the assumption that Black could be A and the two derivatives of bakelite production, Walnut and Mahogany could have become color B & C. That makes 10 colors in all and if lettered consecutively the 10th one would be J which we have determined is Nile Green already. We need some more colored Monophone examples to learn more.

_ - Black
_ - Walnut
_ - Mahogany
F - Chinese Red
E - Old Ivory
D - Jade Green
J - Nile Green
G - Royal Blue
H - Orchid
_ - Maroon

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 09:05:51 PM
I for one will keep looking to see what I find.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 09:17:31 PM
Here is a code from a Jade Green AE40: L4126 DSLD SJ7
And here's one from a Ivory AE40: L4124 D20E. (These are from my lists)

You might have already covered these, see if they fit the list.

I checked after I initially posted this, both were on the list; that is what I get for not looking closer.

I will see what I find on the other colors.


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 09:37:27 PM
Dear AE Collector:

Have you checked AE Catalog 4055F?

That might have some more answers for us.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jrs1958 on January 08, 2017, 09:38:46 PM
AE Collector, with the pictures and info I supplied, you are thinking my phone was made around August of 1939?  Once again, thanks for all the research and information.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 09:50:14 PM
Well the color code letters determined for four different colors fit for the phones you mentioned. I have a couple of examples of black 40 sets with a letter in the 4th position of the second code but it must be for some other option or feature. I think it was "T". Other than that I have seen no black 40's with a 4th position code in the second Base Code.

Anyone reading here who has a colored AE 40/50 please check for codes on the base and call 911 report back to us here!

I don't have the 4055-F catalog. I would like to get a copy some time as well as the very hard to track down 4055-B catalog.

Terry

Here is a code from a Jade Green AE40: L4126 DSLD SJ7
And here's one from a Ivory AE40: L4124 D20E. (These are from my lists)

You might have already covered these, see if they fit the list.

I checked after I initially posted this, both were on the list; that is what I get for not looking closer.

I will see what I find on the other colors.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 09:56:50 PM
AE Collector, with the pictures and info I supplied, you are thinking my phone was made around August of 1939?  Once again, thanks for all the research and information.

I received your pictures. Thanks, I will finish off entering that info shortly. All indications to me are that it is a very early set and 1939 is "very early" for AE 40's. Unbeldi has looked up a lot of the patent dates and kept records which I have not done.  That will be an area to work on to come up with dates for various label configurations (sequences of patent numbers) and what date ranges their production could fall between. Unbeldi felt your phone was from 1939 based on something he found in the patent details and based on how it is equipped that seems very possible to me.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 08, 2017, 09:59:33 PM
AE40 Orchid color is code 'H'

L 4044 ASLH      BP1       D-780503-A41 (=>1952)    Gold trim, metro plate,  3-line number card of 1955, low-z ringer (2x700Ω)

Set likely made between 1955 and 1957.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 10:10:19 PM
Ah....very good! I went back and added that to my color codes post a few post back. I know one set isn't a very large sample size but I'm feeling pretty confident that this part of the coding is correct. I have two friends here each with several colored AE sets that I will work towards checking out soon.

Do you have any more info than what you gave already on that Orchid set Unbeldi? I may add it to my list as it isn't going to be very often that any details on an Orchid set will be available.

It's been a good day!

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 10:14:34 PM
Dear Unbeldi:

That's good finding the code for orchid, now if the other colors start turning up aside from what's been located so far, that leaves Black, Walnut, Mahogany, Royal Blue and Maroon.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 08, 2017, 10:27:03 PM
Ah....very good! I went back and added that to my color codes post a few post back. I know one set isn't a very large sample size but I'm feeling pretty confident that this part of the coding is correct. I have two friends here each with several colored AE sets that I will work towards checking out soon.

Do you have any more info than what you gave already on that Orchid set Unbeldi? I may add it to my list as it isn't going to be very often that any details on an Orchid set will be available.

It's been a good day!

Terry
I'll keep looking...   Some more will turn up, perhaps I'll find some color sets in the basement, lol.  :o

Blue, chrome trim everywhere:

Z 18462  67         NR7           D-780503-A18

Clearly a frequency ringer

http://www.ebay.com/itm/252003240770
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 10:32:53 PM
Interesting that the Orchid is an L4044. I have three L404x sets on the list so far, two are 4044 and one is 4045 and all three are colored sets.

I have one D set, D4045 and it is a Chinese Red set. I am wondering if the D might be an error as the second code is D20F. Maybe the first code starting with D was an error. It goes way back in my recording this stuff.

Some of the listed L4123 sets are colored sets and All 7 of my listed L4124 and L4125 sets are colored sets.

I have three N4022 sets listed, all colored sets.

Both my listed N4025 sets are colored.

I have 12 40's listed that the first base code has more than one letter, PL, PN, SL, SN. None of them are colored sets.

So, there seem to be certain assigned 40 and 41 sequences that are predominantly colored sets. A possibility exists that something in there could refer to the metal trim finish as ALL colored sets have either Chrome or matte gold finish on the metal pieces.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 10:35:24 PM
Dear Unbeldi:

Could "N" be the code for Royal Blue, do you suppose? I'm not saying it is, but it appears  to fit what we're seeing so far.

Keep us posted,
RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 08, 2017, 10:41:44 PM
Interesting that the Orchid is an L4044. I have three L404x sets on the list so far, two are 4044 and one is 4045 and all three are colored sets.

I have one D set, D4045 and it is a Chinese Red set. I am wondering if the D might be an error as the second code is D20F. Maybe the first code starting with D was an error. It goes way back in my recording this stuff.

Some of the listed L4123 sets are colored sets and All 7 of my listed L4124 and L4125 sets are colored sets.

I have three N4022 sets listed, all colored sets.

Both my listed N4025 sets are colored.

I have 12 40's listed that the first base code has more than one letter, PL, PN, SL, SN. None of them are colored sets.

So, there seem to be certain assigned 40 and 41 sequences that are predominantly colored sets. A possibility exists that something in there could refer to the metal trim finish as ALL colored sets have either Chrome or matte gold finish on the metal pieces.

Terry


When I have seen  SL and SN sets, it always seems that the S is enlarged, as if stamped separately.  I have usually ignored them in my memory, and only remember L and N, frankly, that is why I was surprised earlier in this thread.  But looking at some data I kept, I do had SL and SN too.  I don't think I have seen PL and PN,  but we have the same situation here, L and N again, with a P prefixed.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 10:43:22 PM
Dear AE Collector:

I'd be interested to find out if that code for Chinese Red is a error or not; when you determine for sure, I will look for the posting from you.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 08, 2017, 10:44:38 PM
L 4125 ASLD    TN6         D-780503-A41    Jade with chrome trim, extensicord
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 10:50:29 PM
Dear AE Collector:

Could the code with N in it from reply #183 be the Royal Blue code? the code reads Z1846267 NR7; he calls it Blue with Chrome trim, and a frequency ringer; Could this be the Royal Blue we seek?

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 10:58:32 PM
The S and P codes never appear on their own but when they do appear it is always in front of the more common L and N codes. Interestingly, I only have L, PL and SL codes for 50's. No N, PN or SN 50 codes. Hmmm....

Z's seem to be a different animal again. No Z 40's but I have a couple of 47 sets with a Z. I have one Z 50 as well AND a SZL 50 to further complicate things. The Z50 and the two 47's with Z's....all AE Canada sets. The rest of the coding on Z sets seems to not follow the regular pattern very well.

Terry


When I have seen  SL and SN sets, it always seems that the S is enlarged, as if stamped separately.  I have usually ignored them in my memory, and only remember L and N, frankly, that is why I was surprised earlier in this thread.  But looking at some data I kept, I do had SL and SN too.  I don't think I have seen PL and PN,  but we have the same situation here, L and N again, with a P prefixed.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 08, 2017, 11:07:13 PM
My guess is that it isn't. The third code field is almost always two letters and a number like NR7. Sometimes it seems like they put it backwards like 4BG. Since the second field just has 67 for the ringer frequency and is missing its dial indicator digit and since some colored sets don't have the letter code for the color, I am inclined to think the color code is just missing and the N is part of the third field of codes.
 
Terry

Dear AE Collector:

Could the code with N in it from reply #183 be the Royal Blue code? the code reads Z1846267 NR7; he calls it Blue with Chrome trim, and a frequency ringer; Could this be the Royal Blue we seek?

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 08, 2017, 11:13:55 PM
Could the "R" in that code be for Royal Blue? I know its throwing a guess, but I figure it couldn't hurt to ask.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 09, 2017, 12:29:50 AM
Anything is possible but there is no indication that they tried to line up the coding with the letter that the color begins with in any of the other examples so far.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 08:22:58 AM
OK, I can concur with that, it's a thought, though.

I'll keep looking, and see what everyone else turns up on this, too.

There's still plenty of looking to do, so something will turn up, I'm sure of that.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 09, 2017, 10:53:27 AM
Here is an example of an early set that shows what I described earlier.

The S is well separated from the standard ordering number, which included the N.

This appears to be another set from 1939 or so, with a silver-ink patent stamp.

My suggestion is that the extra leading symbol is not part of the primary order number, but has some additional significance.

The S and P codes never appear on their own but when they do appear it is always in front of the more common L and N codes. Interestingly, I only have L, PL and SL codes for 50's. No N, PN or SN 50 codes. Hmmm....

Z's seem to be a different animal again. No Z 40's but I have a couple of 47 sets with a Z. I have one Z 50 as well AND a SZL 50 to further complicate things. The Z50 and the two 47's with Z's....all AE Canada sets. The rest of the coding on Z sets seems to not follow the regular pattern very well.

Terry
<edit by AE_Collector - fixed a confusing typo in my quoted post>
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 01:04:08 PM
Dear Unbeldi and AE Collector:
Here is a code for an AE50 I saw on eBay: L 3102 BSLF PD4; The set looks to be Chinese Red, where do you think it "falls" in the color coding?

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 09, 2017, 01:10:04 PM
Dear Unbeldi and AE Collector:
Here is a code for an AE50 I saw on eBay: L 3102 BSLF PD4; The set looks to be Chinese Red, where do you think it "falls" in the color coding?

RotoTech99

I think that is actually L 5102, not 3102.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 01:22:04 PM
I think you're right, I'll review the photo and make sure
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 09, 2017, 01:22:58 PM
Here is an example of an early set that shows what I described earlier.

The S is well separated from the standard ordering number, which included the N.

This appears to be another set from 1939 or so, with a silver-ink patent stamp.

My suggestion is that the extra leading symbol is not part of the primary order number, but has some additional significance.

That seems to be the case. There are really (primarily) just L and N sets and some of them might have either a P or an S added before the L or the N. So far I don't see any obvious difference between the L and N sets but there must be something! We will figure it out somehow.

I took a look at the records of the 40's that I have in my collection including lots of "spares", the largest number of which were obtained here in BC Canada. I wondered if N could indicate a Phillips / AE Canada made set and L a US made set. This is a slight possibility of this. My collection has many more N and PN 40 sets in it than L sets but I do have a few L 40 sets that were not bought on eBay (eBay purchased sets would much more likely be from the USA) but were primarily obtained from retired BC Tel employees who weren't really phone collectors so any phones they had were inevitably acquired as takeouts at work here in Canada.

I know there were times in more recent years where we acquired equipment from AE in the USA and/or NE/NT in Canada for many different reasons. I recall an AE Canada strike and there may have been times where Phillips/AE Canada couldn't supply the need or maybe AE Canada brought supplies in from AE in the USA.

But, a greater possibility seems to be that a P in front of an L or N might indicate Phillips/AE Canada made sets. Back to my Base Code records which are only just a few of my phones, phones I've seen on eBay and input from others, mainly members of CRPF.
-Virtually all L40/L41 sets (21 total) are "Chicago 7" sets.
-Almost all N40/N41 sets (16 total) are Chicago 7 or Chicago sets but a couple are Canadian (maybe adding the P was missed or unreadable)
-All PL40/41 and PN40/41 sets (4 total) are "made in Canada" by either Phillips or AE Canada
-All SL40/41 and SN40/41 sets (8 total) are Chicago or Chicago 7 sets.

Looking at my AE50 base code records, as I mentioned earlier, there appear to be  no N, PN or SN 50/51's. Only L, PL and SL 50/51's. I have records of 25 50 sets so a reasonable sample size. It doesn't look as though N 50/51's were made or whatever N and L indicate, N is not relevant to a wall set.
-most L sets (12 total) likely US made but 3 likely early L5000 sets made in Canada. Adding a P not yet thought of early on??
-All PL sets (9 total) are made in Canada or unmarked but most likely Canadian based on the source of info.
-SL sets (3 total) one marked Chicago, 2 unmarked and likely US made based on source of info.

So to sumarize:
There are L and N versions of the AE 40 (40/41 versions)

There are only L versions of the AE 50 (50/51 versions)

A P to the left of an L or N appears to indicate it was Canadian made.

A S to the left of an L or N appears to be US made like L and N sets. So with the S = a different US Plant maybe? The few examples I have indicate Chicago or Chicago 7 BUT, that is just AE's "mailing address" not necessarily the location of the plant.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 09, 2017, 01:32:17 PM
Dear Unbeldi and AE Collector:
Here is a code for an AE50 I saw on eBay: L 3102 BSLF PD4; The set looks to be Chinese Red, where do you think it "falls" in the color coding?

RotoTech99

F is the Color code for Chinese Red. I have a friend with every color of AE 40 so will hopefully have more codes soon.

Do you have pictures of that red 40 or is it currently on eBay? What sort of dial (or dial blank?) does it have with the B code?

Here is the "known color code" chart again.

_ - Black
_ - Walnut
_ - Mahogany
F - Chinese Red
E - Old Ivory
D - Jade Green
J - Nile Green
G - Royal Blue
H - Orchid
_ - Maroon


I am starting to work on a summary for everything we know about the 40 coding at the moment.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 01:34:51 PM
Dear Unbeldi and AE Collector:

I went back and checked, it read L 5102 BSLF PD4 all right. the 5 looked like a badly stamped "3" to me.

It's  currently on EBay; its not mine, its one I ran across searching AE40's.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: stub on January 09, 2017, 02:32:18 PM
Terry,
 Here's one on a Chinese Red - AE 50  -  L5002  D6   stub
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 09, 2017, 02:48:57 PM
Hi Stub:

3 "0"'s in the number or 2? L50002 or L5002. That is one that doesn't seem to have the color code and also uses a single digit for the ringer frequency. Unbeldi (I think) posted one with a 3 rather than 30 in the ringer frequency position. Like the "0" they sometimes used for SL there must be a list of single digits used to represent some of the common ringer frequencies. I think there must have been more than 10 possible different frequencies in total though so I don't know how they made that single digit code work.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: stub on January 09, 2017, 03:06:54 PM
Terry,
          5002, sorry can't seem to think or type   ???  stub
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 05:00:23 PM
Dear AE Collector:

Here are some more AE40 and AE50 codes for you from my EBay searches:

Walnut AE40 N4025 A2 TB1
Royal Blue AE40 L4125 ASLG GN7
Black AE50 L5000 B4  RY6

these took me awhile to locate as they were in sites with EBay links.

See what comes of these...

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 09, 2017, 05:26:57 PM
Okay, you found the color code (G) for Royal Blue there. Unfortunately there isn't a color code with that Walnut phone you found. I added "G - Maroon" to the previous color chart at reply #199 and down below on this post as well.

Logically Maroon might turn out to be color "I" but then again they might skip I as it can easily be mistaken for a 1. I suspect that they may have reserved "A" for black even though it never seems to show up on the base of a black phone. I think that Walnut and Mahogany were the first "colors" AE produced being that they are derived from bakelite rather than being actual plastic like the other colors so logically they might have been assigned color codes B & C. We will have to keep searching to see if we can find any examples. I sent a PM to Jon Kolger (who is on here occasionally) to see what input he has. He has an amazing collection of colored AE sets.

I have an Old Ivory 40 with Chrome trim and an Old Ivory 40 with gold trim. Both have the "E" color code in position 4 of the second set of codes. I also have a Chinese Red 40 but there is no color code on it. It was a basket case when I got it (and still is) and I suspect it didn't have a base plate with it, just the red case with internals and a red handset so I added a base plate from a busted up black 40.

_ - Black
_ - Walnut
_ - Mahogany
F - Chinese Red
E - Old Ivory
D - Jade Green
J - Nile Green
G - Royal Blue
H - Orchid
_ - Maroon


Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 05:41:18 PM
Hmm, I'll have to keep looking, as long as that code was for it, you'd swear the color code for Walnut was there.

What say ye on the black AE50 # L5000 B4 RY6, Have I run across something there?
RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 09, 2017, 05:56:11 PM
I don't know what L5000 is specifically but probably an early version at least with that very low number. There is the single digit for the ringer again, (4). I think that I have seen charts from AE of single letters to indicate ringer frequency but there must be a list of single digits as well. back to the catalogs.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 06:01:34 PM
From what I recall, it had chrome dial, with Metro "QZ" plate handset looked to have painted brass bands.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 09, 2017, 06:32:45 PM
L 4126  DSLD      SJ7,      Jade  with gold trim:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/201573402981



L5000 seems to be fairly common, btw, e.g.:
L 5000  B0       NO5
L 5000  A0       JS?

SL5000  A0      SX6 (upside down)    (Chicago)   http://www.ebay.com/itm/252707688639

Here is a Brockville PL5100 and a decal: 

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 09, 2017, 06:46:13 PM
The 40 and 50 codes phones use the older low Z ringer and the code that follows is different from the code that follows the 41 and 51 codes.

I think comparing 40xx codes with 41xx is meaningless.

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 09, 2017, 06:53:47 PM
We haven't seen one color code printed on a base plate that didn't fit the color chart we've created. Of course unlike newer AE 80/90's it ISN'T easy to convert the color of a 40/50!

It seems as though the three different sections of code were likely different stamping operations as the space between each section seems to vary or be as you mentioned Unbeldi, upside down. Also, the amount of ink on the stamp can vary the brightness of the letters from one section to the next and some sets seem to have missed out on being stamped for one or more of the sections.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 09, 2017, 06:54:11 PM
The 40 and 50 codes phones use the older low Z ringer and the code that follows is different from the code that follows the 41 and 51 codes.

I think comparing 40xx codes with 41xx is meaningless.

Jack

That appears correct when speaking strictly about the four digit number, but cases can be found when the next group of codes has the same format.   See for example the previously shown case of L4044 ASLH, which is a low impedance set, but made after 1952, when most sets were long coded with 41xx.


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 09, 2017, 06:57:19 PM
That appears correct when speaking strictly about the four digit number, but cases can be found when the next group of codes has the same format.   See for example the previously shown case of L4044 ASLH, which is a low impedance set, but made after 1952, when most sets were long coded with 41xx.

That would make the task of decoding rather difficult. There are other codes as well (non 40/41, 50/51) but I don't have enough of them to get a feel for the code.

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 09, 2017, 06:59:13 PM
Ok
The 40 and 50 codes phones use the older low Z ringer and the code that follows is different from the code that follows the 41 and 51 codes.

I think comparing 40xx codes with 41xx is meaningless.

Jack


Okay, I can check my lists for that. I hadn't noticed many "second section" codes that only had a single digit for the ringer (other than 0 sometimes for SL) until the last day or so. Maybe the 41 & 51 sets changed the way the ringer code is stamped on the base as well as having changed the actual ringer type.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 09, 2017, 07:09:13 PM
That appears correct when speaking strictly about the four digit number, but cases can be found when the next group of codes has the same format.   See for example the previously shown case of L4044 ASLH, which is a low impedance set, but made after 1952, when most sets were long coded with 41xx.


I think this case actually highlights that the assumption of 41xx and 51xx sets having high impedance ringers is correct.  It is rare, I think, to find use of low impedance ringers in the 1950s anymore, except for use with electron tube ringing bridges on party lines.  The coding format is clearly of the "high-z" age, but they "correctly" marked the set with the "low-z" starting digits 40.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 07:58:09 PM
Dear AE Collector:

I've been thinking on my converted AE40 that when I added the high impedance D56515A ringer, the 4mf talk & .4mf ring condenser, hook, and the induction coil for a CB set, I changed the "40" code to "41" without realizing it.

Of course, my housing is the later one with the 3,4, & 5 terminals, and dial mounts molded into it.

Now once we get the code for black, and what it would be with chrome bands, lift bar, and fingerwheel, we'd be getting somewhere.

Maybe I'm going on a guess,  but once a set turns up with like components, I'll know what I created


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 08:58:50 PM
Here's another code for a black AE40 with chrome trim: N4029A9 AO1.

What say ye to this one?
RptoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 09, 2017, 09:13:41 PM
Dear AE Collector:

Have you checked AE Catalog 4055F?

That might have some more answers for us.

Back from Reply #175:

I just realized that I DO have catalog 4055E from February 1949. It is this one (picture below) with the colored 40 & 50's on the cover. Even though it is 7 years (and one war) after the February 1942 4055D catalog it really doesn't have anything "new" in it. I see that now all 10 of the colors (including black) that have been available all along are now also available for the AE 50 set instead of just 6 colors for the wall phones.

I also found something showing colors for AE 1A sets an they are the same colors as well except, as I suspected, there was no Jade Green then. I always had it in my mind that Jade Green was a newer color and the ONLY color that kept its "name" in the AE 80/90 lineup.

I mentioned a friend who has quite a few colored AE sets. Below are pictures of his 40's and 50's that I took while visiting him recently (but not recently enough to have thought to take pictures of the base plates). The 40 in the foreground is Orchid (lavender -purple) which almost always turns this very nice light blue color over time. Nile Green behind it.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 09:21:38 PM
Looks very good, and the photo of your friend's phones look good as well.
RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 09, 2017, 09:25:13 PM
Back from Reply #175:

I just realized that I DO have catalog 4055E from February 1949.


Is this the one that was reprinted by TCI, or do you have in PDF ?
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 09:32:14 PM
I know I would like to see the 4055E, I only have the 4055D I printed as .PDF
from the TCI Library myself.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 09, 2017, 09:37:02 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321909835792
Here is a set that has the following marking on both the base and the schematic label

N 4023  A6

The schematic also indicates the frequency that presumably the code '6' stands for:    20
Schematic number D-53940 Issue 3.

Basically, I think we agree that the idea is correct, that both the digit in the second position of the second group of the old designation format (34A3, 40xx) is a frequency designation, as well as the 2 digits of the second group of later format (41xx).

A single digit for the ringer frequency is in principle possible, if

(A) another indication is used for the ringing system, as each system only has five frequencies

(B) We use the availability of the ringers as listed in the 1930s catalogs.  They only list NINE frequencies in addition to SL:
      16.6, 20, 25, 30, 33.3, 42, 50, 54, 66.6 Hz
      In this case we need to figure out the correct sequence for digits 1-9, as 0 appears to be SL.

(C) The 1940 catalog lists 10 frequencies for 'Loud Ringing Bells' and for the AS-80 C.B. ringer movements.

 16.6, 25, 33.3, 50, 66.6  and 20, 30, 42, 54, 66
 In this list 20 Hz is item no. 6.

We have no indication that the code MUST be a single digit for the old format.

The catalog specifies to order the standard set, and specify the frequency desired. That means they did not have a catalog code for sets with special ringer type. I suspect that having 10 frequencies does not violate the observed format, it could simply be that the 10th frequency was specified as A10, rather than a single digit, say A9. We just have not found an example, nor do we have examples of all the single digit types.

 






Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 09, 2017, 09:44:47 PM
Is this the one that was reprinted by TCI, or do you have in PDF ?

I think that TCI reproduced the 4055F catalog but I don't have a copy of it of any sort. Would like to know the date of it as well. Someone must have a copy.

My 4055E appears to be an original copy. I guess I better figure out how to use my scanner. Like buffing, that always scares me! What settings, what file format, how to package the scans up....I have no idea!

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 09:55:23 PM
i would suggest using .PDF (portable document format); it  can be opened with Adobe Reader or other
.PDF readers.

That's what I use, my Word program can convert Word documents to .PDF easily.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 09, 2017, 10:05:17 PM
AE Circular 1712 of 1950 uses letters as frequency codes for high-impedance ringers.
The part number is  D-56516-<code>

   A  16.6
   B  25
   C  33
   D  50
   E  66.6
6 F  20
   G 30
   H 42
   J  54
   K  66
   L  40
   M 60

In this list 20 Hz is also item no. 6, matching the  A6  schematic information, I showed earlier.

The list of frequency ringers available has been expanded to twelve.
The same catalog specifies only nine frequency for low frequency ringers, codes K, L, and M are missing, the list stops at J.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 09, 2017, 10:09:23 PM
I have been looking through the catalogs as well and noticing the order that they listed the Harmonic and Decimonic ringer formats. I noticed that in more than one case the 66~ and the 66 2/3~ cycle ringer appear to be one and the same as far as ordering codes. I guess this makes sense doesn't it? A 66~ ringer is NOT going to be on the same line as a 66 2/3~ ringer, they are two different ringing systems. And the frequency is so close together they wouldn't likely be able to make a ringer that could differentiate between those two slight differences.

Your thoughts are as follows? <edit - confirmed by your post just before this post>
0 = SL
1 = 16.6
2 = 25
3 = 33.3
4 = 50
5 - 66.6 or 66
6 = 20
7 = 30
8 = 42
9 = 54

I went through my Excel lists of base codes looking for a second code group with indications of other than a SL ringer and then looked up the reported ringer in that set. But, I have so many early reports that don't contain much "internal info" and then add that to the fact that the ringers were likely fairly often swapped out to other frequencies or SL ringers and I didn't learn much.

I did find a couple of matches to your proposed code order Unbeldi not counting code 0=SL which there are LOTS of matches.

I have a 3 coded base with a 33.3~ ringer in it. The base code for this one is actually A3H where as the idea of single digit ringer codes seems to be to lower the second code section from 3 to 2 digits including the first letter for the dial plate. I wondered if the 3H might stand for 3 Harmonic (for some redundant reason).

I also  found a 7 base code with a 30~ ringer in it as well.

I found numerous mis-matches such as a 4 coded base with a 66.6 ringer rather than a 50. Also a 6 code with a 30 rather than a 20 ringer. And of course numerous 1 and 2 digit ringer codes that actually now had SL ringers in them.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 10:12:09 PM
Well, I know the straight line D-56515A ringer in my AE40 uses a .4mf condenser I'm assuming uses 20 cycle ring current.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 09, 2017, 10:19:33 PM
@AE_Collector
Yes, we have to be careful with observations, ringers were very frequently changed.  I also have sets that have a frequency on the base different than what is installed, but where it happens, at least the ringing system is consistent, i.e. a harmonic ringer was not changed to a synchromonic type.

Indeed, I don't think any ringer can distinguish between 66 and 66.6 Hz unless the voltage level is so low that avery bit counts.  That is a 1% difference in frequency.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 09, 2017, 10:21:31 PM
Well, I know the straight line D-56515A ringer in my AE40 uses a .4mf condenser I'm assuming uses 20 cycle ring current.

RotoTech99

We are not talking about straight line ringers.  These are not frequency selective and have a wide frequency range from 16 to 30 or even 40 Hz.  A 20 Hz frequency ringer only responds to perhaps 18 to 22 Hz ringing current.[Correction: the FCC specified  20±3 Hz]
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 09, 2017, 10:42:18 PM
The single digit coding is bound to be based on something like that chart of frequencies. The trick will be finding enough examples that seem to match the pattern still. I guess that AE wanted to alternate between letters and numbers in each code section to make the coding obvious but of course they assigned single digit numbers for frequencies that were already pushing 10 possibilities. So they appear to have changed the later charts in catalogs to letters when they added two more frequencies. But rather than changing the coding on the bases to letters it looks as though with introduction of the 41/51 sets and high impedance ringers they switched the second code section from 2 to 3 positions allowing the full frequency to be written out.

Actually, I see lots of N sets even N40xx sets with the single digit ringer codes but the L sets virtually all have 2 digit ringer codes spelling out the frequency, even on L40xx sets. So the change from 1 to 2 digit codes for the ringer doesn't really appear to be linked to the 40/41 change or the low to high impedance ringer change. It seems more related to N versus L sets. Weird.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 09, 2017, 10:43:53 PM
I misunderstood, thanks for clarifying.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 12:15:16 PM
In this topic (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17420.msg180040#msg180040) I posted a work-in-progress table of patent information found on AE 40, 50 telsets.  I wanted to keep the discussion of the patents separate from other labeling discussions, to keep some order.  This thread already contains a lot of stuff and the decals are somewhat detached from decoding of set markings.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17420.msg180040#msg180040
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 10, 2017, 12:31:02 PM
Dear Unbeldi:

That's a good idea, I like that.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: poplar1 on January 10, 2017, 01:36:18 PM
Ivory 40:

1 XA 518927 1 (base plate); "1-XA  CODE NO. -518927-1" (diagram)

Decal: D-180404-A41 D-780504-A41

Diagram: FORM D-53940 ISSUE-7

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322385198280
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 01:43:21 PM
Ivory 40:

XA 518927 1

Decal: D-180404-A41

Diagram: FORM D-53940 ISSUE-7

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322385198280

Thanks.
I think the decal is D-780504 A41.  It is hard to read, but when you know the number, it is easier to decode the image.

The set has 33 1/3 Hz low-impedance ringer,  D-56466-C.   Here we see the use of the suffix "C" to denote the 33.3 Hz ringer.

It is also interesting to note that in the schematic, the order number is written as  1–XA  5189  27–1, and the last group is offset a little on the stamp on the bottom.
This must have been some kind of special order, I suppose, the codes are hand-written.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 10, 2017, 03:26:22 PM
I thought maybe the machine that stamps the codes blew up right after printing that base plate.

I will add it to my inventory.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: stub on January 10, 2017, 04:32:26 PM
Terry,
        Here's pic of requested AE 47 patent decal .    stub
                       
                                       left click on 1st pic to enlarge
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: andre_janew on January 10, 2017, 05:54:46 PM
I've often wondered what the difference is between a straight line and a 20 hertz ringer.  Wouldn't either one work on a modern telephone system?
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 10, 2017, 06:52:19 PM
So we haven't had any discussion about the third section of codes. It is almost always two letters and one digit such as the one on the base of Stubs AE47 in the last post RU6. I did mention once earlier that a peculiarity if this code is that it fairly if ten shows up inside the phone on other components. This made me wonder if it or part of it might be date related.

Reasonably often I have seen the same two letters show up on transmitter and/or receiver capsules. AE capsules almost always have a two letter code on them though very often they don't match each other or the third base code letters. But of course there is nothing easier to move around or replace than the transmitter and receiver capsules.

I have seen two letter codes on other components in the phone as well though much less regularly than on the capsules. We need to get stub to open up his AE 47 again, in my Base Code survey notes I have recorded that there is an RU9 code on the dial in Stubs 47. Maybe that is correct and maybe it is really RU6 like the third base code on the phone. Check everything on the capsules for us as well Stub.

There seem to be endles combinations of letters in the third base code and the two letters found on capsules. I have often wondered what on earth all these different two letter combinations stamped on simple transmitter and receiver capsules could signify. The most logical thing I can come up with is a date or plant/shift indicator.

On AE80/90 sets the date code is basically at the end of the coding sequence. Same place as this third base code sequence. I have one AE47 record from CRPF "GG" that must have been made during the conversion to 80/90 and or 86/87 type multi line sets and design of the all new coding for the new phones.
It is coded H870  661-3  8-57-8.
-The AE87 is logically the replacement for the AE47 set thus the H870 part of the new code though no idea about the H. The new 80 type coding would code all colors on the base including black which would become color 0 so the 0 in 870 code might be black.
-No idea about the 661-3 though dial and ringer could be easily coded in numbers like he new 80's would be coded. Isn't 3 retractable handset cord in the 80's?
-And there in the third code position is the manufacture date just like 80's would have. The third portion of that segment, the second 8 isn't a part of the date on 80/90 sets. It is an unknown but is most often assumed to be either a plant or a shift code. Most often this last digit was a single digit but not always so the last digit in the AE 40's third code segment is almost always a single digit which could be the same as with 80/90's.

AE parts do occasionally have "Insp 24" type stamps on them which presumably would mean "Inspected by #24". So the RU or RU6 could be an inspector number or maybe a batch number. But the Fact that capsules are stamped virtually always while other components are very hit and miss except the base plate which almost always gets stamped just doesn't seem likely that they are being stamped after some sort of inspection moments before being boxed up. The stamp size for the transmitter capsules is much smaller than the stamp in the base as well so at least two sets of stamps are needed.

Phones may have been built to order so this part of the code could be an order number. They might not have done a separate order for every little company who ordered 20 AE40's but they might have grouped orders together and decided they needed to built 1250 L4123 AE40's next week to fill that group of orders and stalled it order RU6.

All possibilities I guess.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 10, 2017, 08:09:21 PM
I used at one time a 20 cycle freq ringer on a straight line when I had no reg. st. line ringer; it rang loudly and clearly.

I did it in a AE80, and a "500" phone..
perhaps the only hitch was no vol. control on the ringer.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: stub on January 10, 2017, 09:48:57 PM
Terry ,
          This set has the radio suppressed 51 dial stamped  RU9 on the back.  Pic of the trx and receiver numbers . The rest of the report I sent to you is correct .
           The tiny url is for my report reply #1 , reply 3 and 9 are for GG's AE 47. stub
                  http://tinyurl.com/zqjj3zw
                                       
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 10, 2017, 09:49:33 PM
Here's something of interest. A "Z" 50 with a Cold Cathode Tube in it. The drawing inside supports that it was a factory install. I don't know why they couldn't have just used an available 50xx or 51xx even if they wanted it to begin with a "Z". It is Z16631 1 OP.

So just what does having a tube do? Was it to solve ringing problems on unusually long distances from the exchange? Or is it related to frequency ringing on party lines? Would a phone with a tube likely use a frequency ringer? Just wondering if the lack of a ringer digit in the second code likely means it was shipped without a ringer? This would potentially make sense where they wouldn't want to stock rarely needed phones with tubes with every imaginable frequency of ringer already installed. Later in model 80/90 phones they went to putting "XX" where the ringer code was to be in phones shipped without a ringer.

So that is ONE explanation for the Z code.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 10, 2017, 10:28:00 PM
Here's something of interest. A "Z" 50 with a Cold Cathode Tube in it. The drawing inside supports that it was a factory install. I don't know why they couldn't have just used an available 50xx or 51xx even if they wanted it to begin with a "Z". It is Z16631 1 OP.

So just what does having a tube do? Was it to solve ringing problems on unusually long distances from the exchange? Or is it related to frequency ringing on party lines? Would a phone with a tube likely use a frequency ringer? Just wondering if the lack of a ringer digit in the second code likely means it was shipped without a ringer? This would potentially make sense where they wouldn't want to stock rarely needed phones with tubes with every imaginable frequency of ringer already installed. Later in model 80/90 phones they went to putting "XX" where the ringer code was to be in phones shipped without a ringer.

So that is ONE explanation for the Z code.

Terry

It's probably for superimposed ringing. Only one circuit configuration for up to 4 parties with individual ringing - not like frequency ringing where different ringers are required.

There were rare gas relays that were used to help mitigate induced noise.

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 10, 2017, 10:32:37 PM
Terry ,
          This set has the radio suppressed 51 dial stamped  RU9 on the back.  Pic of the trx and receiver numbers . The rest of the report I sent to you is correct .
           The tiny url is for my report reply #1 , reply 3 and 9 are for GG's AE 47. stub
                  http://tinyurl.com/zqjj3zw
                                       

I was under the impression that all AE 47s had radio interference suppressor dials. I don't remember why I had that impression.

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: stub on January 10, 2017, 10:33:44 PM
Terry,
         Here's one for the AE 80 . #3 , Greg ( Brinybay ) has one .   #3             stub
                   double  left click on pic to enlarge
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 10:44:58 PM
Here's something of interest. A "Z" 50 with a Cold Cathode Tube in it. The drawing inside supports that it was a factory install. I don't know why they couldn't have just used an available 50xx or 51xx even if they wanted it to begin with a "Z". It is Z16631 1 OP.

So just what does having a tube do? Was it to solve ringing problems on unusually long distances from the exchange? Or is it related to frequency ringing on party lines? Would a phone with a tube likely use a frequency ringer? Just wondering if the lack of a ringer digit in the second code likely means it was shipped without a ringer? This would potentially make sense where they wouldn't want to stock rarely needed phones with tubes with every imaginable frequency of ringer already installed. Later in model 80/90 phones they went to putting "XX" where the ringer code was to be in phones shipped without a ringer.

So that is ONE explanation for the Z code.

Terry


It was used for full-selective four-party line service, or semi-selective eight-party lines.
As we found out a couple days ago, AE had catalog numbers for such sets, 4117, and I compared them to the equivalent WECo 300-type sets.

But there were also other reasons to install an electron tube in a set.  When a station experienced excessive inductive noise due to an imbalance of impedance against ground between the two line wires, because in a conventional ground-ringing system the ringer is always grounded,  they would install a gas diode to provide an almost infinite, several megohms anyways, impedance against ground.

A set with an electron tube should use a ringer with about 2000 ohm DC resistance.  Most of the independents used WECo tubes, and followed WECo example in choice of ringer impedance for this. 

The speculation that this could be marked by "Z" is interesting, because Z is a common symbol in equations for impedance. However, the "handbooks" shown earlier indicate that they used a special catalog/ordering number of those, which makes sense.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 11:02:36 PM
I was under the impression that all AE 47s had radio interference suppressor dials. I don't remember why I had that impression.

Jack

The AE 40 is normally equipped with a R-C shunt across DP and HS to suppress arcing and RFI.  Perhaps the AE 47 did not have enough room for the resistor, because of the large key assembly, so they move the suppressor directly into the dial ?

Another reason may be that the normal suppressor was too far away from the source of the RFI, so that RFI would be picked up by the alternate CO lines, that were not currently connected to the dial circuit.

I am not so sure the suppressor dials already existed when the AE 47 first came out.  The AE47 was announced in 1949.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 10, 2017, 11:06:57 PM
The AE 40 is normally equipped with a R-C shunt across DP and HS to suppress arcing and RFI.  Perhaps the AE 47 did not have enough room for the resistor, because of the large key assembly, so they move the suppressor directly into the dial ?

Another reason may be that the normal suppressor was too far away from the source of the RFI, so that RFI would be picked up by the alternate CO lines, that were not currently connected to the dial circuit.

I am not so sure the suppressor dials already existed when the AE 47 first came out.  It was announced in 1949.

There were suppressor dials and kits to make one back to the Type 24 dial. I think I got that from catalogues.

(I suppose they might have existed before then but I have no catalogues  to check).

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 10, 2017, 11:40:59 PM
Okay, thanks everyone for the comments about the tube.

I should have mentioned that this 50 set is an AE Canada made set as well. Maybe for whatever reason AE Canada went with radically different numbering on the sets rather than the 4117 code.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 11, 2017, 12:12:48 AM
Reasonably often I have seen the same two letters show up on transmitter and/or receiver capsules. AE capsules almost always have a two letter code on them though very often they don't match each other or the third base code letters. But of course there is nothing easier to move around or replace than the transmitter and receiver capsules.

I have seen two letter codes on other components in the phone as well though much less regularly than on the capsules. We need to get stub to open up his AE 47 again, in my Base Code survey notes I have recorded that there is an RU9 code on the dial in Stubs 47. Maybe that is correct and maybe it is really RU6 like the third base code on the phone. Check everything on the capsules for us as well Stub.Terry

And there we have it! Stub just posted a picture of the transmitter and receiver capsules in his AE 47. Note the two letter codes stamped on each of them.
Also, the dial has RU9 on the back of it and the Third Base Code is RU6.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 11, 2017, 08:49:36 AM
And there we have it! Stub just posted a picture of the transmitter and receiver capsules in his AE 47. Note the two letter codes stamped on each of them.
Also, the dial has RU9 on the back of it and the Third Base Code is RU6.

Terry

I have made similar observations. For example one of my sets has UD marks everywhere.  UD-12 on dial, but UD 6 on the base, where the 6 is almost impossible to read and could be wrong.  However, a -12 does not seem to fit the impression.

A few days ago when looking for sets, I also saw a set on eBay that had the identical mark as another set.

The sets manufactured in Northlake apparently do not have the third group anymore.  Instead they have the date stamped as month-year-code, and I have so far assumed that the <code> was the same as the last digit in the previous format.

It is well possible that the two letters represent either a date or some kind of manufacturing or QA identification.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 11, 2017, 08:57:42 AM
My  October 1958 Northlake set is coded

L4123ASL    10-58-11

The dial, transmitter, and receiver have "CA" stamped on them.   On the dial it may be CA-5, but the ink is very blurred.
At this time the AE40 sets already used Type 80 RX and TX elements.

This may provide a data point for decoding  CA  <==> 10-58  in case we find that they are equivalent.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 11, 2017, 11:58:14 AM
Yes that could be a key. I will check the one set that I have with a full date in the third code position (a 47 I believe) to see if I can also find any "two letter codes" in it. Another place that the two letter code frequently shows up is on condesors. Yet, I don't believe I have ever seen these codes on induction coils or ringers.

Any sets that have matching "two letter" codes like yours could then have their manufacture date narrowed down using your patent number process.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 11, 2017, 01:04:28 PM
Do you have enough data to limit the digit in the third grouping,  e.g., 12 in UD-12 ?

Frankly, I believe that 12 is largest number I have seen in that position. Perhaps that is only hind-sight and subjective.  But I have been cautious about the correct interpretation of the explicit date codes on Northlake sets, whether Type 40 or 80 Monophones.    Where does the thought come from that the third number is not part of the date?

In the sets that I have seen, the format could easily be  code-year-month or month-year-code.

For example, my 10-58-11 set, could easily  be October 1958, or November 1958.

On AE 80 sets, I have seen dates formatted as such:   5 70 21,  in which case this clearly appears as complete date:  Month Year Day, or does it mean dayofweek Year week ?
PS: should set this aside, I think, probably not related to the interpretation of code so much earlier.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 11, 2017, 03:07:31 PM
Took a look through the third code section for 40/43/47/50 sets. Nothing longer than 3 digits and virtually nothing other than two letters/1 digit. One oddity there, all in the SN402x sets are three that are like they are stamped backwards. 4BO, 4BG, 4RS. Might be just that, someone set the stamp up in reverse.

Back to the single digit, another oddity...out of approx 50 examples, only 4 digits show up. 1, 6, 7 & 9. And of the sets that have the P at the very beginning (Canadian sets), a small sample of only 4 at the moment but...no digit in the third position of the third code. Just the two letters. If this digit were a plant indicator it would be redundant with the P for Phillips at the very beginning unless Phillips opened a second plant. Keep in mind these records were all of 40 series sets not 80 series sets.

Back to the 10-58-6 type codes primarily found on 80/90 set types but seen on a couple of late 40 series phones.
Unfortunately in most cases in my records I translated these numbers to a date rather than entering the exact code sequence found on the phone.
The first segment is always very evenly distributed between numbers 1-12 only.
The second segment ranges from about 57 through high 70 something numbers in all cases.
The third segment for 40/50 type sets is reported just above. For 80/90 type sets it remains almost always in the single digit range though appears to have more than the 1, 6, 7 & 9 options mentioned above for 40 type sets. There are a small quantity of numbers that are two digits long though, particularly in newer AE products such as 80E telephones. I have a couple of 28's and they actually have P-28 like Plant 28, a 31, a 54 and a couple of 61's. Since I always made the assumption that the third field in the date code was a plant code I wasn't surprised to see some of the newer AE sets with two digits numbers there. Plants such as Huntsville Alabama and Letherbridge Alberta began making these newer consumer level AE sets. I will have to look further into this as my records are so incomplete.

So the bottom line with the date code field particularly on AE 80's is, the first two positions nicely work for a month and then year. The third position frequently works for a day but there are way too many months that don't have more than 9 days in them,. If the day were the first field rather than the third field same thing, never goes above 12.

Terry


Do you have enough data to limit the digit in the third grouping,  e.g., 12 in UD-12 ?

Frankly, I believe that 12 is largest number I have seen in that position. Perhaps that is only hind-sight and subjective.  But I have been cautious about the correct interpretation of the explicit date codes on Northlake sets, whether Type 40 or 80 Monophones.    Where does the thought come from that the third number is not part of the date?

In the sets that I have seen, the format could easily be  code-year-month or month-year-code.

For example, my 10-58-11 set, could easily  be October 1958, or November 1958.

On AE 80 sets, I have seen dates formatted as such:   5 70 21,  in which case this clearly appears as complete date:  Month Year Day, or does it mean dayofweek Year week ?
PS: should set this aside, I think, probably not related to the interpretation of code so much earlier.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 11, 2017, 03:33:47 PM
I am looking closely at a fairly EARLY Forget-Me-Not Blue 80 set:
Codes on the base are NB 82230 CSA EG5. All of this code except for the final EG5 part is standard for an AE 80 set and can be deciphered on Paul F's AE colors chart. But rather than a date such as 8-61-X it has the EG5 code.

Now inside the phone:
Transmitter capsule looks much newer than the phone and the only marking is a D#
Receiver capsule looks original to phone and has code AG.
Dial has code EG7 stamped on it
Potted network has D# and EG8
Condenser on ringer frame has EG
Ringer sticker has all usual info and its D# plus a second D# D-530139-AG. I am assuming this is a D number for the sticker but it ends in AG.

To sumarize, inside this phone with EG5 stamped on the base in various places can be found:
AG
EG7
EG8
EG
AG

This topic NEEDS MORE PICTURES!!!

Terry

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 11, 2017, 06:48:54 PM
Here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/322360496441) is a currently offered AE40,   N 4069 B0  UT7.

It seems pretty original, probably ca. 1940, although the patent sticker is pretty much invisible.
Cloth cords, but damaged.

Both, transmitter and receiver, are also marked "UT".

The number card indicates that the number card is also original, having been installed on a manual line.  No dial is indicated by B0, as was standard in the 1930.
This might even be a local battery set, as the set type (4069) is only one count off from the set that Rototech reported as being LB (4068).  If it were simply a manual common battery set, then a standard set would be sufficient with a dial blank.



Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 11, 2017, 07:25:51 PM
Took a look through the third code section for 40/43/47/50 sets. Nothing longer than 3 digits and virtually nothing other than two letters/1 digit. One oddity there, all in the SN402x sets are three that are like they are stamped backwards. 4BO, 4BG, 4RS. Might be just that, someone set the stamp up in reverse.

The format (digit followed by two letters) was common on AE 35 and AE 43. I have occasionally come across AE 40s coded (letter followed by two digits)

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 11, 2017, 08:15:22 PM
First Picture:
So what is this round gray thing in my AE47? Looking at the schematic I think it is labelled as a Click Suppressor. Looks to be diodes connected across the receiver element. I need to see if they are in all AE47 sets because this one looks to be clearly dated. It has 3B and (12-55) stamped on it.

Second Picture:
AE47 Schematic Diagram

Third Picture:
Close up of dial wiring on Schematic (sorry, kind of blurry).
What is that at lower right side of dial? A resistor and capacitor in series across pulse contacts. The note says "Part if Dial"
Spark suppression? RFI suppressor like Jack mentioned that he thought came with all 47's?

An interesting note on the bottom of the schematic. One more for our record:
"Monophones L4111 wired per Method A" (line 3 switch up by hookswitch)
"Monophones L4114 wired per Method B" (line 3 switch up by hookswitch)

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 11, 2017, 08:37:14 PM
First Picture:
So what is this round gray thing in my AE47? Looking at the schematic I think it is labelled as a Click Suppressor. Looks to be diodes connected across the receiver element. I need to see if they are in all AE47 sets because this one looks to be clearly dated. It has 3B and (12-55) stamped on it.

That is a varistor.   Physically it is constructed from a stack of rectifiers, one tap is in the center, and the second is looped from one end of the stack to the other. It is present in all 47s, as far as I have seen.


Quote
Second Picture:
AE47 Schematic Diagram

Third Picture:
Close up of dial wiring on Schematic (sorry, kind of blurry).
What is that at lower right side of dial? A resistor and capacitor in series across pulse contacts. The note says "Part if Dial"
Spark suppression? RFI suppressor like Jack mentioned that he thought came with all 47's?


The capacitor and resistor across the DP contacts is the spark/RFI suppressor that we mentioned earlier.  In the standard Type 40, there is a resistor mounted by the switch hook that functions in conjunction with the ringing capacitor.

Quote
An interesting note on the bottom of the schematic. One more for our record:
"Monophones L4111 wired per Method A" (line 3 switch up by hookswitch)
"Monophones L4114 wired per Method B" (line 3 switch up by hookswitch)

Noted and recorded in my type compilations...



Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 13, 2017, 10:35:55 AM
Took a look through the third code section for 40/43/47/50 sets. Nothing longer than 3 digits and virtually nothing other than two letters/1 digit. One oddity there, all in the SN402x sets are three that are like they are stamped backwards. 4BO, 4BG, 4RS. Might be just that, someone set the stamp up in reverse.

Back to the single digit, another oddity...out of approx 50 examples, only 4 digits show up. 1, 6, 7 & 9. And of the sets that have the P at the very beginning (Canadian sets), a small sample of only 4 at the moment but...no digit in the third position of the third code. Just the two letters. If this digit were a plant indicator it would be redundant with the P for Phillips at the very beginning unless Phillips opened a second plant. Keep in mind these records were all of 40 series sets not 80 series sets.

I think, in particular, I have always been struck by the relatively frequent occurrence of the 7 in the last position of this code group.  I have not recorded them all, but in my memory, the 7 makes an imprint more than any other number.  I know this must be subjective, and no substitute for actually recording data.—Has anyone noticed that when you bought a new car which you thought was so unique and rare in color or features, that all of a sudden you see the same every where?   ;D

Quote
Back to the 10-58-6 type codes primarily found on 80/90 set types but seen on a couple of late 40 series phones.
Unfortunately in most cases in my records I translated these numbers to a date rather than entering the exact code sequence found on the phone.
The first segment is always very evenly distributed between numbers 1-12 only.
The second segment ranges from about 57 through high 70 something numbers in all cases.
I agree that these dates seem to have started with the move to Northlake in 1957.  Shortly before this transition, AE started using patent labels without patent numbers listed. They are in essence just trademark labels for the name "Monophone". They have a new form number, D-780575-A, and come in two varieties, one with the Chicago 7 location and with the Northlake location.


Quote
The third segment for 40/50 type sets is reported just above. For 80/90 type sets it remains almost always in the single digit range though appears to have more than the 1, 6, 7 & 9 options mentioned above for 40 type sets. There are a small quantity of numbers that are two digits long though, particularly in newer AE products such as 80E telephones. I have a couple of 28's and they actually have P-28 like Plant 28, a 31, a 54 and a couple of 61's. Since I always made the assumption that the third field in the date code was a plant code I wasn't surprised to see some of the newer AE sets with two digits numbers there. Plants such as Huntsville Alabama and Letherbridge Alberta began making these newer consumer level AE sets. I will have to look further into this as my records are so incomplete.

So the bottom line with the date code field particularly on AE 80's is, the first two positions nicely work for a month and then year. The third position frequently works for a day but there are way too many months that don't have more than 9 days in them,. If the day were the first field rather than the third field same thing, never goes above 12.
Thanks for the explanation.  I guess we need to continue this kind of analysis of the frequency of symbol distribution.


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 13, 2017, 10:57:20 AM
Do we have a definitive date or year for the discontinuation of Type 50 wall phones ?
I have been assuming it was just after 1955.  I think the Type 80 desk phone was already available in 1955, and the 90 came out shortly after.
The AE documentary  "This is Automatic Electric" of 1955 shows the Type 40, 50, and 80, but not yet the Type 90.  Type 90 is present in the 1957 catalogs. So this introduction must have happened sometime between 1955 and 1957.

1955 was the year that AE was acquired by General Telephone.  No doubt this brought some cash infusion to update manufacturing and product lines.
Was the acquisition a reason for changing the labeling of products from the L– ordering prefix to the N– prefix ?
We need to observe more N–set and record the patent label form numbers on them.  Terry noted that no Type 50 wall phones are found with N– prefixes, only L–.  Was the 50 discontinued with the acquisition, and therefore could not receive N numbers ?

Many open questions...

PS:  But we do know that some L-41xx sets were still made even in Northlake:
 L 4123 ASL 10-58-11
 L 4111 GSL 1-59-6
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 13, 2017, 01:15:43 PM
1955 is the year I have generally heard as the launch if the first AE80. I think I may have once heard something about very late 1954 so likely 1955 before one made it far from the shipping dock. I always heard that the 90 came after the 80 had been launched, possibly even 1-2 years later. But I've heard the same thing about the 50 as compared to the 40.

The idea of the desk phone being launched first then work getting under way on the wall phone version makes sense to me as wall phones were much more prevalent then but the "modern phone" was a desk phone. Telco's we're going to have stock piles of usable wall phones being removed as desk phones were being installed in their place so they wouldn't have been as anxious to have access to new wall phones as they were for desk phones. One final note about the first AE90...turn it over and you are looking at an AE80 with a cradle/hook added on the side and modified cover to make it a wall phone.

So a 1956-1957 introduction for the 90 would sound about right and it would seem hard to believe that the 50 would be discontinued prior to the 90 being available. But the move to Northlake mid 1957 could certainly have been the end of the 50.

The end of the 40 as well though AE seemed to like to overlap production of new and old sets for Telcos that were convinced that the 40/50's were the way of the future. And there are stories of type 40 military sets being available later as well. With lots of room at the new Northlake facility maybe they moved enough of the production line to be able to produce them a little longer if needed.

Let's not forget that Leich began producing AE80's initially as well since Leich was owned by GTE prior to GTE acquiring AE. I don't recall ever seeing a Leich 90 though. Leich was quite quickly amalgamated into AE after the aquisition.

The AE 47 set that I reported on here a couple of days ago, (with the dated 12-55 varistor in it) has the smaller gold decal without any patent dates on it. Now I have put two and two together with you mentioning the removal of patent dates from the stickers.

The replacement for the (L4111) 47 set (the 87) would logically have been a couple more years after the move to Northlake so more reason to keep the line that could manufacture 47's awhile longer.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 13, 2017, 05:20:31 PM


The AE 47 set that I reported on here a couple of days ago, (with the dated 12-55 varistor in it) has the smaller gold decal without any patent dares on it. Now I have put two and two together with you mentioning the removal of patent dates from the stickers.
Does it have a form number ?

Quote
The replacement for the (L4111) 47 set (the 87) would logically have been a couple more years after the move to Northlake so more reason to keep the line that could manufacture 47's awhile longer.
I agree, the latest I have recorded was from 1959.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 14, 2017, 12:14:04 AM
Is the form number the D# on the lower left corner of the label?

Not too much left of the label but the number is D-780508-A6

Will try to get a clearer picture of it.

I am surprised at the number of 40 and 50 sets in my records that have fabric insulated wiring as opposed to plastic wiring. A bit of a pattern here, there are NO 40xx or 50xx sets with plastic insulated wiring. 41xx and 51xx sets could have either type of insulation, exactly 50-50, 8 fabric and 8 plastic.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 14, 2017, 07:16:19 PM
Is the form number the D# on the lower left corner of the label?

Not too much left of the label but the number is D-780508-A6
It is the same label number that I posted in the other thread that was taken from an AE 80, just a differing issue number  (A9).


Quote
Will try to get a clearer picture of it.

I am surprised at the number of 40 and 50 sets in my records that have fabric insulated wiring as opposed to plastic wiring. A bit of a pattern here, there are NO 40xx or 50xx sets with plastic insulated wiring. 41xx and 51xx sets could have either type of insulation, exactly 50-50, 8 fabric and 8 plastic.

Terry

I suppose most sets with low-impedance ringers were made before the switch to plastic insulated wiring, which was probably early 50 or so.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: rdelius on January 14, 2017, 07:22:38 PM
i think plastic wires came along with the introduction of the type 47about 1949or so
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 15, 2017, 01:19:17 AM
Cloth Versus Plastic Insulated Internal Wiring

Based on what I am finding in 13 different AE47 sets (was 10 but I had 3 here that I hadn't recorded) it looks as though the change from cloth insulated wire to plastic insulated wire inside of 47 sets was January 1956. Some of the 47's that I have records for were made in Brockville Canada and Some in Chicago USA but I wouldn't expect to find a big discrepancy in the time frame of the insulation change between these two manufacturing locations.

Every 47 that I have here has the gray click suppressor with a date (month-year) on it between 1955 and 1958. This is what I am dating the 47's with and noting when the wire insulation changed. I only have this date recorded for the five 47's that I have here though. Need more samples!

Logically the wiring in 40's, 50's, 47's etc would have all changed to plastic insulation at pretty much the same time I would think. If so this will be a way to pin down the date of this change which will be another "made before/after" identifier for AE40's and 50's.

My 5 "dated" AE 47's:

Made in USA 7-1955 cloth internal wiring
Made in USA 12-1955 cloth internal wiring
Made in Canada 1-1956 Plastic internal wiring
Made in Canada 1-1958 Plastic internal wiring
Made in Canada 1-1958 Plastic internal wiring

We need some more samples though just in case the new AE plant in Canada which opened in 1954 used the new plastic insulated wire while sets made in the USA didn't switch to plastic insulated wire until the new plant opened in Northlake in August 1957.

Stub....need you to open up your 47 one more time! Get the date off the varistor.

Anyone else out there with an AE 47 handy?

Terry

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 15, 2017, 12:35:33 PM
Is it not correct that the Phillips works in Brockville produced primarily wire and cables?  If so, it might be logical that they would be leading in the use of plastic covered wire, in case we find a difference.

At least one colored AE40, with the code 4044, IIRC, that I have pics of, has cloth-covered wiring, and I estimated that the set was made after 1952.
That was in part why I suggested a transition in early 1950s, it is entirely possible that it was even later.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 15, 2017, 01:56:37 PM
Yes, Phillips made wire and cable in Brockville, presumably in the same building(s) that the other AE equipment was made, Dave_PEI would know. When the new AE Canada plant opened in 1954 Phillips carried on making wire and cable (presumably) at the old Phillips Electrical Works plant at Brockville Ontario. Eventually there were other Phillips Cables plants in Canada, we had one in Vancouver unless maybe it was just a warehouse facility. Most of the cable that BC Tel used was made by Phillips Cables until they eventually closed the Vancouver plant (maybe Phillips closed down everywhere at that time) in the 1990's.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 15, 2017, 02:34:45 PM
Low Impedance vs High Impedance Ringers and 40xx/50xx vs 41xx/51xx in the First Code Field

I have gone through my Excel records of AE base Codes for 40's, 47's and 50's with regards to looking at ringer types (old larger low impedance ringers versus newer smaller high impedance ringers) used in the 40xx versus 41xx and same for 50 sets. My sample size is 39 telephones, I have many more recorded but couldn't use records from any that weren't clearly identifiable as 40xx versus 41xx coding or where the ringer in the phone wasn't identified to me in surveys.

40xx sets had 14 Low Impedance Ringers and 0 High Impedance Ringers installed.
41xx sets had 0 Low Impedance Ringers and 5 High Impedance ringers installed.
4111 (47) sets had 0 Low Impedance ringers and 2 High Impedance Ringers installed.
50xx sets had 10 Low Impedance Ringers and 0 High Impedance Ringers installed.
51xx sets had 2 Low Impedance Ringers and 6 High Impedance ringers installed.

Notes:
Most of my records of AE 47 (4111) sets had Z rather than L or N coding and the other numbers don't directly identify them as 40xx versus 41xx sets so only the L/N coded sets were included here.
-Two 51xx AE50 sets DO HAVE low impedance ringers in them but they are both SL ringers in sets coded as originally having frequency ringers so these ringers have been swapped out later and the low impedance ringers must have been all that was on hand.

So, I say that we make the call in favor of Jack Ryan who made this call quite some time ago. The change from Low Impedance Ringers to High Impedance ringers appears to have also incremented the Base Coding from the 40xx to 41xx and 50xx to 51xx.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 15, 2017, 02:48:21 PM
So, I say that we make the call in favor of Jack Ryan who made this call quite some time ago. The change from Low Impedance Ringers to High Impedance ringers appears to have also incremented the Base Coding from the 40xx to 41xx and 50xx to 51xx.

Terry

So seconded!

I think it is especially significant that clearly later manufactured sets in the mid 1950s that are coded 40xx have been found with low impedance ringers of clearly newer manufacturing materials than those in the 1940s.  The only reason I can think of for using low-resistance ringers anymore at that time is for new stations on party lines with existing low-z ringers, to preserve line balance.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: stub on January 15, 2017, 02:59:36 PM
Terry,
         My 47's varistor has 3B ( 12-53 ) on it,   stub
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 15, 2017, 03:49:48 PM
Terry,
         My 47's varistor has 3B ( 12-53 ) on it,   stub

Thanks Ken. That is the oldest "DATED" 47 I have in my records so far. I have the date from the varistor for 6 or 13 recorded AE47 sets. This expands that date range from 12-1953 through 2-1958.

Stubs 47 is a L4111 ASL RU6 set with a "D-750504-A46 Chicago 7" gold decal on the base and internal cloth insulated wiring.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 16, 2017, 11:37:23 AM
I have added two items to the "Highlites of AE Code Deciphering and Dating Discussions" topic. This is done when we figure that this particular coding has been properly deciphered.

- Low Impedance and High Impedance Ringers and 40xx/50xx Versus 41xx/51xx Base Codes

- Colored AE 40, 47 & 50 Sets

Topic located here:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17454.0

Let me know here in this topic if anything doesn't seem correct or if there is any disagreement with anything whatsoever.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 16, 2017, 12:38:56 PM
A summary to date of the letter(s) at the beginning of the First Code Field:

-L & N are by far the most often seen letters on AE40's, with L being see slightly more frequently than N in my records at least. So far we have no idea what the difference is between the L and N sets.

-AE50's are predominantly L sets. NO N sets have been seen what so ever.

-When there is more than one letter at the beginning of the First Code Segment, the extra digit is usually a P or an S and it is always to the left of a L or N.

-If the first letter of a two letter sequence is a P, the phone is almost certainly made in Canada. Maybe it stood for "Phillips" originally but it carried on once AE sets began being made by AE Canada from 1954 on.

-If the first letter of a two letter sequence is an S, the phone is made in USA with Chicago Ill, or Chicago 7 Ill on the tag just like single letter N and L sets. So far we have no idea what the extra S indicates on these phones.

-There are other letters as well, mainly letters near the end of the alphabet, X,  Y & Z. Several of my AE47's begin with Z yet many other 47's are L4111 sets. Low numbers of X, Y & Z sets have been seen and they don't have any obvious differences from phones with "normal" codes though they haven't been closely inspected.

I have records of phones with first letter(s): D, L, N, P, PL, PN, SL, SN, SZL, Z.

Jack Ryan added GN and TN to the list. I don't think I have any records of those codes on phones found in North America.

As for the 4 digits that follow the initial Letter(s) in the First Code Field, they appear to be assigned to various changes to options and electrical characteristics of the phones over the years and likely for certain purposes. This will take some time to begin to understand the differences.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 16, 2017, 01:33:15 PM
Third Code Field - Typically LLN (Letter Letter Number)

A few code examples:
L4123  B20  YK7
L4125  D33F  RU7
N4025 A5  TB1
PL5100  D30  AN

The Third Code Field usually begins with two letters and then a number. Comparisons have been made to the last code segments on AE80/90 phones where the date appears to be indicated by two sets of numbers and then a third number that doesn't really work as a part of a date.

For example 12-63-8. This could be Dec 8, 1963 or August 12, 1963 but neither are normal date formats. No digits in the first position ever exceed 12 with 1 through 12 all showing up relatively evenly. It is rare for the digit in the third position to exceed 9 though it does happen. So, this third position isn't considered to be a part of the date but more likely a plant code or indicator of some other feature.

So on AE40/50 phones I have considered that the two letters may somehow indicate a date in some convoluted fashion. These two letters and sometimes the third digit will quite often show up stamped on various components throughout 40's and 50's. Frequently they don't all match likely due to parts being moved around but quite often they do all match or at least look quite similar. The two letters almost always show up on transmitter and receiver capsules and condensers inside the phone and sometimes on the back of dials as well.

The third digit in the Third Code Field is virtually always a single number. By far the number 7 seems the most prominent on 40's and 50's.

Out of 54 AE40 phones with valid codes on the base, this is what I found. Numbers not shown didn't turn up on a single phone in my records:

#0 = 1 phone
#1 = 6 phones
#6 = 4 phones
#7 = 19 phones
#9 = 8 phones

Out of 11 AE50 phones with valid codes on the back, this is what I found. Numbers not shown didn't turn up on a single phone in my records:

#4 = 1 phone
#5 = 1 phone
#6 = 3 phones
#8 = 5 phones
#9 = 1 phone

So to summarize: It seems to me that these two letters in the Third Code Field could represent a manufacture date somehow and the digit could represent where it was made or where parts were assembled. This will take a lot more studying but that's my guess so far.

NOTES:

-A couple of 40 or 47 sets have been seen with the 80/90 type date/plant code stamped on the base rather than letters/number like most 40's have. These seem to be late models made at the new Northlake Illinois plant that opened in 1958.

-40/50 sets with a P before the initial L or N in the first code sequence (phones most likely made in Canada) never seem to have the number (or letter) in the third position of the Third Code Field. It is just blank. If this is a plant code it would be redundant on sets with the P as the P identifies the place of manufacture as long as there was only one plant in Canada.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on January 16, 2017, 01:57:45 PM
For example 12-63-8. This could be Dec 8, 1963 or August 12, 1963 but neither are normal date formats. No digits in the first position ever exceed 12 with 1 through 12 all showing up relatively evenly. It is rare for the digit in the third position to exceed 9 though it does happen. So, this third position isn't considered to be a part of the date but more likely a plant code or indicator of some other feature.

Western Electric often also did not use "normal" date formats. I would not let that stand in the way of interpretation.
What may seem normal in a local manufacturing context is hard to conceive later.  It may need historical context; for example, if a company has historically coded only month and year, say as 10-35, and decided to add days, it may not want to cause confusion by changing the established sequences, and simply add it at the end.  This is not a proposal, just an example of historical development.

The decoding also need to take consideration of the fact that the same letter sequence was applied to the TX and RX elements in the handset, on the dial, even the capacitor.   When they differ, it is easy to spot that a transmitter, for example, was changed at some time.

On dials, I have seen up to -12 after the two letters.   Transducers apparently never have a digit appended.

For 40s I have occurrences of at least the following:  0, 1, 3, 6, 7, 9, 11
For 50:  4, 5, 9
For 43:  6   ( I have more, but not collected as list)
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 25, 2017, 12:43:55 AM
Second Code Field

We haven't discussed the Second Code Field yet with the exception of colored sets where the Second Code Field frequently has an extra fourth character, a letter indicating the color as previously discussed in this topic.

The Second Code Field has a couple of variations but it is certainly the easiest Field to Decode.

Dial Code - First Letter of the Second Code Field:

The first character is always a letter A, B, D & E show up the most. While this letter code doesn't align with the letter used in instructions for ordering phones in the sales catalogs it seems fairly obvious that the following is the Base Codes / Dial type pattern:
A = All Numbers Dial Black Numbers on White background
B = Dial Blank / Manual Phone
D = "Metropolitan Red Numbers & Black Letters Dial
E = "Metropolitan Red Numbers & Black Letters Dial

Since dials seem to have moved around quite a bit as well as "B" manual phones being upgraded to Dial sets, it is difficult to figure what the original difference between D & E was and why there seem to be no "C" sets.

I also have one record of an H Dial and one record of an L Dial but there is no obvious explanation looking at the dials currently in these phones. The L Dial phone happened to be a Numbers Only Dial like code A Dial and the H Dial phone was a conventional Numbers/Letters Dial like code D and E Dials.

I do have numerous K Dials in my records and coincidentally they all appear on phones made in Canada. I have 6 AE50 sets with K codes and all six are PL5000 phones. Three have Metropolitan Dials including the Z and three have Metropolitan Dials without the Z. I also have two AE40 phones with K code Dials. Both are PN4023 phones and both dials are Metropolitan Dials including the Z.

This brings up the Z or No Z on the Zero Hole. Does anyone have any thoughts about Z versus No Z? What did WECo have in the 1940's and 1950's? I don't know if one version is older than the other version? Were Z's added on new dials when they began using ZEnith Numbers? I remember Zenith Numbers and presume they were a way to offer Toll Free Calls before 800 Numbers?

Ringer Codes - Second and possibly Third Character in the Second Code Field:

There was a change to the ringer Code at some point in time. It looks as though initially a single number was used to indicate the ringer type. A 0 was used to indicate a Straight Line Ringer and other single digits indicated various frequency ringer types. At some point in time a couple of additional ringer frequencies were introduced which likely led to the change from a single digit to a two digit ringer code where they simply put the Frequency as a two digit entry. Since they had two places now they now used the letters SL to indicate a Straight Line Ringer rather than using a 0 or 00.

For the most part phones in the 40xx/50xx ranges used the single digit ringer codes while phones in the 41xx/51xx ranges used the two digit ringer codes. But I have 5 records, all of 4044 and 4045 phones that have the two digit ringer codes. Unfortunately I only have the actual ringer type recorded for one of these 5 phones and it has an older Low Impedance type ringer fitting in with the convention of 40xx phones having Low Impedance Ringers and 41xx phones having High Impedance Ringers.

First Format for Ringer Codes:
NOTE:
This is a guess based on listings in catalogs)

0 = Straight Line Ringer
1 = 16.6 Hz
2 = 25 Hz
3 = 33.3 Hz
4 = 50 Hz
5 = 66.6 Hz
6 = 20 Hz
7 = 30 Hz
8 = 42 Hz
9 = 54 Hz


Second Format for Ringer Codes:
SL = Straight Line Ringer
xx - Frequency Ringer of xx Frequency.
Examples: 20, 25, 30, 33, 42, 50, 54, 60, 66

Thought and Comments?

Terry


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 25, 2017, 12:52:23 AM
Second Format for Ringer Codes:
SL = Straight Line Ringer
xx - Frequency Ringer of xx Frequency.
Examples: 20, 25, 30, 33 1/3, 42, 50, 54, 60, 66 2/3,

I believe 33-1/3 and 66-2/3 are listed as 33 and 66 respectively.

Jack
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 25, 2017, 01:04:16 AM
Yes, you are correct with respect to the code on the base. I will correct that in my previous post.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 26, 2017, 11:53:57 AM
Dear Forum:

I've went back and weeded out a couple possibilities for the Mahogany color code from similar topics here on CRPF...

From a 2011 CRPF post I found a mahogany AE40 with the code L4124 ASLA YG9... From Topic 1; 1941 Mahogany Monophone
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.0

and from Topic AE40 in Mahogany, Walnut, or Just Plain Black an AE40 with code L4125 ASLB BN6

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4394.0

Would either of these  be the code we've been looking for Mahogany, possibly?

"inquiring minds want to know"... What do you think on these?

RotoTech99
<edit> I added the links to these two topics.  AE_Collector
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 26, 2017, 12:50:37 PM
Good detective work RotoTech! With no examples recorded to date the evidence seemed to be pointing at A, B & C being for Mahogany, Walnut & Black (in no particular order). Obviously Black would have been the first colour that Bakelite phones were produced in for the public. While I am not certain, I think that Walnut and Mahogany came first before the other colors. Thus there would have been no need for a color code until Walnut and Mahogany became options.

They then would have logically (in my mind) decided that black was color A and used B & C for Walnut and Mahogany. But they certainly could have assigned A & B for the two new colors considering Black to NOT be a color and not giving it a code initially. Of course NO black phones have been seen (by me) with a color code on them at all, it remained forever a non coded color on the base of the black phones.

They then might have decided that Black SHOULD have a color code once they were introducing all the new bright plastic colors. So Black could easily have become C rather than A. Something convoluted like that would seem very AE to me! I encountered something else during this project that made me wonder if in fact Black would technically be color C not color A. Now to remember what that was.

That is a good start at identifying the code for Mahogany and Walnut phones. It shouldn't be much longer before we get a few more examples to confirm your findings.

Something we will have to be carefull with when dealing with the Mahogany and Walnut colors is determining for certain what color the phone actually is that we are looking at. They are so similar. I am pretty sure that the one with more distinct color differences (lighter and darker Browns is Mahogany and Walnut is more black and dark brown colors.


<edit> I found and added the two links into Rototechs post. One is likely Mahogany and the other Walnut based on the row different color codes. BUT, I can't make the call from the pictures. Stickdales said his was Mahogany but that appears to be what he heard the name was for dark brown, likely jot realizing that there were two different dark brown versions.

"A" Color Coded 40: (My guess = Mahogany)
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.0
The first one was Stockdales Find of the Month AND Find of the YEAR:
It has lots of good pictures. I can add it into my Excel records.

"B" Color Coded 40: (My guess = Walnut)
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4394.0
I even started this topic! There are no pictures inside this one unfortunately. The eBay link is still alive but pictures there are gone.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 30, 2017, 01:02:36 PM
Dear AE Collector:

I was comparing the walnut AE 40 phones to the photos we were discussing to my color page of the AE40's, and they look closer to the walnut one pictured there, aside from the description saying it has chromium bands.

The mahogany set looks more reddish-brown, which I'd suppose would appear on the sets themselves... What do you think?

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 30, 2017, 01:39:03 PM
I think that AE's Mahogany and Walnut are quite similar to each other. I always assumed that Mahogany would be the phones with black and light brown swirled bakelite where as Walnut phones would be black and dark brown swirled bakelite. Until I can find one of each in the same place to compare I don think I will be able to figure it out for certain! To my way of thinking, the color variations within Mahogany should be more than within Walnut.

But that is just what I think Mahogany and Walnut would be like compared to each other. Even if we find several A coded phones that seem slightly different from several B coded phones, we then have to figure out which ones officially are Mahogany versus Walnut! Someone must know!

Here again is what we know about color codes so far:

_ - Black
_ - Walnut  (suspect code B but not enough samples yet)
_ - Mahogany (suspect code A but not enough samples yet)
F - Chinese Red
E - Old Ivory
D - Jade Green
J - Nile Green
G - Royal Blue
H - Orchid
_ - Maroon

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17454.msg180466#msg180466

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: rdelius on February 01, 2017, 09:01:12 PM
Somewhat related but type 34a3 colors mentioned in Modern Plastics magazine about 1934-5
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on February 03, 2017, 12:33:24 AM
At some point we (Unbeldi and myself) were discussing the constant use of codes A0 by AE. "A" being a dial type and "0" an indicator of a SL ringer but even on subsets that don't have dials. Not that this helps much but I think it is actually "A Oh" not "A Zero" in those odd scenarios. Note the AO- code for a 32 ringer versus the L-1504 code on the next row on this AE43 Spacesaver Technical Bulletin. First one is O and it is different than the 0 (zero).

Not that this clarifies much, leave it to AE to use A0 and AO in the same place but at least it explains a little bit.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on February 03, 2017, 12:52:33 AM
I have scanned my AE40, 43 & 50 Technical Bulletins (installer pocket guides) and am now just waiting for them to be added to the TCI Library.

I think I already posted that:

L4123 with Drawing D-53940-A is a standard 40
L4107 with Drawing D-530019-A is a 40 with SATT A dial
L4119 with Drawing D-530131-A is a 40 with a SATT B dial
L4117 with Drawing D-530031-A is a 40 with Superimposed ringing

Here are the equivalent AE50's:

L5100 with Drawing D-53702-A is a standard 50
L5107 with Drawing D-530037-A is a 50 with SATT A dial
L5112 with Drawing D-530130-A is a 50 with a SATT B dial
L5110 with Drawing D-530032-A is a 50 with Superimposed ringing

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on February 03, 2017, 07:34:20 AM
 Very good information, that had me wondering too.


I would wager the the black with chrome sets fit also have similar coding.

Rototech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 03, 2017, 08:00:39 AM
At some point we (Unbeldi and myself) were discussing the constant use of codes A0 by AE. "A" being a dial type and "0" an indicator of a SL ringer but even on subsets that don't have dials. Not that this helps much but I think it is actually "A Oh" not "A Zero" in those odd scenarios. Note the AO- code for a 33 ringer versus the L-1504 code on the next row on this AE43 Spacesaver Technical Bulletin. First one is O and it is different than the 0 (zero).

Not that this clarifies much, leave it to AE to use A0 and AO in the same place but at least it explains a little bit.

Terry

I agree that printed documentation makes this apparent distinction.  The first catalog in which the 34A3 appeared also appears to use AO (letter O). The stampings on phones is inconclusive usually, as they seem to use the same character for letter  "O" and zero "0".  I have been watching for any difference between the obvious zero and O on sets that are labeled like  N 4020 A0 or AO, and I have not been able to discern a distinction.   On ringer and magneto boxes, such as L-594 A0 and L-594 B0, I could not decide either and  I still don't know what the difference A vs. B means on the AE Magneto Battery Box.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on February 03, 2017, 06:19:48 PM
Dear AE Collector:

Glad to hear you got the pocket reference manuals scanned and are waiting for them to be added into the TCI Library;
I look forward to seeing them. Will you also post links here on this topic to give quick access?

Great work getting them scanned in, and Thanks.

RotoTech99

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on February 04, 2017, 05:43:48 PM
Dear Forum:

I am enjoying how this topic is progressing... I'm still looking around for examples of the colors we haven't classified yet.

I look forward to updates on it

Rototech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on February 06, 2017, 05:08:06 PM
Dear Forum:

I asked awhile back if someone had a guess on what my converted AE40's code would be after conversion from a LB to a CB one..

The straight line condenser &  D-56515A st. line ringer, non SATT (std.) dial with letter & numbers, and straight
 black handset cord gives me the code L-4123 ESLT

With the help of AE Collector's AE 40 handbook and comparison of my sets internal configuration and a couple of other things, I determined my conversion created a standard AE40 (L4123).

figuring out the codes for the chrome trim (handset bands, chrome lift bar, and fingerwheel) will tell me more, but as there is a hodgepodge of date codes, knowing the year of manufacture is not likely

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on February 08, 2017, 07:15:06 AM
Dear AE collector:

In regard to Reply #46 where you had the "A." and "D" dial codes marked "Dunno". in which of the field handbooks did the "A" and "D" codes appear, please?

Also, do you have a field handbook for the AE47, please?

All assistance, advice, and comments appreciated and welcomed.

RotoTech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on February 08, 2017, 09:01:57 AM
Quote
Dear Forum:

Here is a thought on the AE 40 color codes we have... Any comments and advice and feedback are welcomed.

Presently, we have codes D, E, F, G  H, and J; if the numeral associated with the letter for the color is used/ considered, we have six of the 9 or 10 colors; 9 if you don't count black, ten if you do count black and/or find the documents confirming black as a 10th color with the appropriate designation.

Of course,there are still Walnut, Mahogany, and Maroon to find the color code letter for.

What do ye good people of the Forum say on this. insuring minds want to know.

RotoTech99

.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on February 12, 2017, 02:05:48 PM
So we have another confirmation of H being the color code for Orchid with the current Orchid AE40 auction contest. To date several colored AE's have been seen that are completely missing the color code letter on the Base Codes but I haven't seen a single discrepancy in color codes/actual code from all the phones that have the color code letter on the base.

I was looking at an AE21 metal wall phone of mine...actually a 21A I think? It seems original except the dial was probably added in the field after the areas conversion to automatic. Please excuse the poor quality pictures below, I will try to take better pictures.

At some point either one if the condensers was replaced or maybe it had been used in conjunction with an existing subset so didn't gave a ringer and condenser in the phone? It still doesn't have a ringer but maybe someone borrowed it before I got the phone.

In support of my theory that the "two letter codes" are somehow a date indicator, compare these two condensers. The first one (black) obviously original to the phone is dated 3-29. The second newer condenser (gray) has IDENTICAL information (now) ink stamped onto it except for the AE name change from inc to co and the fact that the Date is no longer directly indicated but seems to be replaced with a two letter code.

The dial seems to be a type 24 with oval AE logo and it clicks when being wound up.

Note the bulldog transmitter also has the oval AE logo but it also has a part number "Type 6C1" and a two letter code RO. This makes me wonder if the transmitter in this phone was updated some time after 3-29 (when it was likely made) or if two letter codes were being used on some components by 1929. If the transmitter were updated in 1940 or later wouldn't it be changed to a AECo 41 capsule? But then we're back to WW2 timeframe and if they still had these type 6C1 transmitters in stock they were going to be used rather than being junked.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 12, 2017, 02:48:22 PM
So we have another confirmation of H being the color code for Orchid with the current Orchid AE40 auction contest. To date several colored AE's have been seen that are completely missing the color code letter on the Base Codes but I haven't seen a single discrepancy in color codes.

I was looking at an AE21 metal wall phone of mine...actually a 21A I think? It seems original except the dial was probably added in the field after the areas conversion to automatic. Please excuse the poor quality pictures below, I will try to take better pictures.

At some point either one if the condensers was replaced or maybe it had been used in conjunction with an existing subset so didn't gave a ringer and condenser in the phone? It still doesn't have a ringer but maybe someone borrowed it before I got the phone.

In support of my theory that the "two letter codes" are somehow a date indicator, compare these two condensers. The first one (black) obviously original to the phone is dated 3-29. The second newer condenser (gray) has IDENTICAL information (now) ink stamped onto it except for the AE name change from inc to co and the fact that the Date is no longer directly indicated but seems to be replaced with a two letter code.

The dial seems to be a type 24 with oval AE logo and it clicks when being wound up.

Note the bulldog transmitter also has the oval AE logo but it also has a part number "Type 6C1" and a two letter code RO. This makes me wonder if the transmitter in this phone was updated some time after 3-29 (when it was likely made) or if two letter codes were being used on some components by 1929. If the transmitter were updated in 1940 or later wouldn't it be changed to a AECo 41 capsule? But then we're back to WW2 timeframe and if they still had these type 6C1 transmitters in stock they were going to be used rather than being junked.

Terry

It is certainly within reason that the two-letter codes are an encoding of some time period.  25 letter by 25—discounting the letter I—gives 625 time periods. When the codes exhaust, the sequencing starts from the beginning. Such systems are known from companies such as Siemens & Halske, which used a single letter to denote years, with a recycle time of 25 years.

My database of markings from AE types 34, 40, 43, 44, 47, 50  seems to tell me that either the recycle time is short or that the two letters are listed in reverse of significance.  If the time period was months, that would account for 52 years of codes.  However, the diversity of letters over the time period of only the AE40, casts some doubt to that assignment.  It also seems that the codes are likely not specific to a product line, but likely valid across all products.  It started long before the AE 40 came out.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on February 12, 2017, 03:09:19 PM
My AE21 example shows AE using 3-29 obviously month-year. Then in the late 50's they went back to the 11-58-?? Coding so they used a Month-Year first in both instances. So the two letter codes following this date format somehow would make sense. I might make a big list of all two letter codes that I have seen just to see if certain letters don't seem to have been used and if I can find any other patterns. You mentioned skipping letter I to avoid confusion with 1 and O/0 could likely be omitted then as well.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 12, 2017, 03:36:11 PM
My AE21 example shows AE using 3-29 obviously month-year. Then in the late 50's they went back to the 11-58-?? Coding so they used a Month-Year first in both instances. So the two letter codes following this date format somehow would make sense. I might make a big list of all two letter codes that I have seen just to see if certain letters don't seem to have been used and if I can find any other patterns. You mentioned skipping letter I to avoid confusion with 1 and O/0 could likely be omitted then as well.

Terry

Letter O is certainly present, I have many examples of it:  OJ7, OZ7, OZ9, LO1,...
Both positions of the group seem to span from A to Z, so that a clean separation of year/month coding does not seem to apply.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 12, 2017, 05:31:28 PM
Here is an example that shows that there certainly ismay be some kind of time correlation of the two-letter codes.

N 4022 A0 NH7;  decal D-780504 A7
N 4023 B3 NH7;  decal D-780504 A3

Both phones have the same code "NH7", but different type numbers (4022 and 4023), and different decals (A7 and A3)

A 4022 is a common battery telephone with a dial, while the 4023 has no dial patents listed on the A3 label, consistent with the code B in "B3". I have found at least some 4023-type sets to be local battery sets.  The last patent year for both labels is 1942, but they both show the postal zone Chicago 7, and therefore the labels, and the phones by inference, are from 1943 or later.  So this places the NH code in that time.

I have listed another set,  L 4123 E20 NF-7, which has a A41 issue label, which is from much later (>1952), but the code NF would perhaps indicate a date just a little bit earlier than NH.

If the codes roll over this might indicate a roll over period of about 10 years.
But this is just all speculation at this time.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on February 15, 2017, 01:15:50 AM
Interesting observations on the (possible) date codes. It would seem odd that they would roll the codes over in only 10 years but it could be.

By the way, I moved all of the Orchid AE40 discussion to a separate topic here:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17673.0

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 18, 2017, 05:50:18 PM
Here is a confirmation of the first ringer code, such as in A1 or E1, which designates a ringer for a frequency of 16 2/3 Hz.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2569.0



Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 18, 2017, 05:56:04 PM
Here is a summary of ringer codes, including the order numbers for the ringers ca. 1950.

The first column is the code used in formats (e.g. Ax, Ex) such as this: L 5000 E1

and the second column is for format as in: L 4123 A33

Low impedance ringers by AE were only available in nine frequencies, plus the SL version.

PS:  I don't actually recall having seen the code 17 for a 16 2/3 Hz ringer, so this is a bit of speculation, but I believe I have seen code 67.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on February 18, 2017, 11:25:07 PM
That's a good confirmation of the frequency/code. Typical of AE, "let's use single digits to represent each of the different ringers". Then they add some more frequencies so "let's do what we should have done in the first place - use two digits to represent the actual frequency". Then at yet another board meeting someone says "you know, we haven't used letters to indicate frequency yet, when can we start?"

I will check my records to see if I can find any 17's. And shouldn't 66.6 be 67? So there is actually a 66 and a 66.6? I sort of though one would have done both jobs since they wouldn't each be used on the same party line being two different types of systems.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 18, 2017, 11:36:51 PM
That's a good confirmation of the frequency/code. Typical of AE, "let's use single digits to represent each of the different ringers". Then they add some more frequencies so "let's do what we should have done in the first place - use two digits to represent the actual frequency". Then at yet another board meeting someone says "you know, we haven't used letters to indicate frequency yet, when can we start?"

I will check my records to see if I can find any 17's. And shouldn't 66.6 be 67? So there is actually a 66 and a 66.6? I sort of though one would have done both jobs since they wouldn't each be used on the same party line being two different types of systems.

Terry

I did list 66.6 as code 67.
Yes, 66 and 66.6 Hz were distinct types, technically.
66 was for the synchromonic system (54 + 12), and 66 2/3 (50 + 16 2/3) was for the harmonic system.


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 19, 2017, 08:53:02 AM
AE's list of frequencies appears to suggest that they did not support the decimonic ringing system for low-impedance ringers.  But they did have a 20 Hz frequency ringer. The decimonic system is the only one that  used it.

I believe AE used it in place of the 16 Hz ringer for the synchromonic system.

The 16 Hz ringer for the synchromonic system was a compromise anyways, because it does not strictly fit into the synchromonic series, where it should have had the frequency 18 Hz  (30 Hz – 12 Hz), but 18 Hz is exactly one third of 54 Hz, and therefore such a ringer combination would be subject to cross-ringing by harmonic resonance, the very problem that the synchromonic system was supposed to avoid.  As a solution, they (Leich or Kellogg) lowered the frequency from 18 Hz to 16 Hz to throw it off-resonance.  Apparently, AE chose to go the other way and increase it to 20 Hz.

It should also be noted that the low frequency (16 Hz) was not originally part of the synchromonic system at all, as the ringing systems originally only used four frequencies instead of 5.

I would like to find reliable references to this theory, if anyone has any, please reply, pro or contra.

For reference:
Harmonic: 16 2/3, 25, 33 1/3, 50, 66 2/3 —> 1, 2, 3, 4 times 16 2/3
Synchromonic:16 (18), 30, 42, 54, 66—> (3), 5, 7, 9, 11times 6
Decimonic:20, 30, 40, 50, 60—> 2, 3, 4, 5, 6times 10

Blue numbers indicate the frequencies not originally present in the system.
A possible reason for not supporting the decimonic system is that it also has harmonic conflicts: 20/40/60, 30/60




Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on February 19, 2017, 11:49:56 AM
AE's list of frequencies appears to suggest that they did not support the decimonic ringing system for low-impedance ringers.  But they did have a 20 Hz frequency ringer. The decimonic system is the only one that used it.

I believe AE used it in place of the 16 Hz ringer for the synchromonic system.

Was the Decimonic System designed to work with low impedance ringers (only) or did AE appear to not support it for low impedance ringers but did support it for high impedance ringers? The former I assume.

For what it is worth, I was never in a situation where I was taught any of the details of the various systems, I only learned the basics of frequency ringing as part of basic telephony. I worked for awhile in an AE SxS office in a semi rural area that had numerous party lines up to 10 parties I believe. From what I saw and learned in that office I thought at the time that party line frequencies were 20, 30, 42, 54 & 66 CPS. So this supports your theory about AE and Synchromonic Ringing though I don't know that I have any documentation about it.

Presumably the system that a CO uses is determined by the ringing machine installed which was probably picked by an engineer to be a good fit for the office. Number of parties required on a line would be a factor. Would other factors such as potential lengths of the lines be a factor as well or more likely the types of subs equipment generally used in the area?

Terry

For reference:
Harmonic: 16 2/3, 25, 33 1/3, 50, 66 2/3 —> 1, 2, 3, 4 times 16 2/3
Synchromonic:16 (18), 30, 42, 54, 66—> (3), 5, 7, 9, 11times 6
Decimonic:20, 30, 40, 50, 60—> 2, 3, 4, 5, 6times 10

Blue numbers indicate the frequencies not originally present in the system.
A possible reason for not supporting the decimonic system is that it also has harmonic conflicts: 20/40/60, 30/60
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 19, 2017, 12:46:52 PM
I made one error of omission in my previous table of frequencies.

It should have been the following, adding the multiplier 1.5 for the 25 Hz entry in the harmonic system.

Harmonic: 16 2/3, 25, 33 1/3, 50, 66 2/3 —> 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 4 times 16 2/3
Synchromonic:16 (18), 30, 42, 54, 66—> (3), 5, 7, 9, 11times 6
Decimonic:20, 30, 40, 50, 60—> 2, 3, 4, 5, 6times 10




For reference:
Harmonic: 16 2/3, 25, 33 1/3, 50, 66 2/3 —> 1, 2, 3, 4 times 16 2/3
Synchromonic:16 (18), 30, 42, 54, 66—> (3), 5, 7, 9, 11times 6
Decimonic:20, 30, 40, 50, 60—> 2, 3, 4, 5, 6times 10

Blue numbers indicate the frequencies not originally present in the system.
A possible reason for not supporting the decimonic system is that it also has harmonic conflicts: 20/40/60, 30/60
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 19, 2017, 01:05:39 PM
Was the Decimonic System designed to work with low impedance ringers (only) or did AE appear to not support it for low impedance ringers but did support it for high impedance ringers? The former I assume.
If anything, it appears that the decimonic system perhaps was used for high-impedance ringing. I don't have a specific time when the system appeared.
Interestingly, though, the Kellogg catalogs of ca. 1940 only list two of the decimonic frequencies.

Quote
For what it is worth, I was never in a situation where I was taught any of the details of the various systems, I only learned the basics of frequency ringing as part of basic telephony. I worked for awhile in an AE SxS office in a semi rural area that had numerous party lines up to 10 parties I believe. From what I saw and learned in that office I thought at the time that party line frequencies were 20, 30, 42, 54 & 66 CPS. So this supports your theory about AE and Synchromonic Ringing though I don't know that I have any documentation about it.
Thanks, indeed.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 19, 2017, 05:30:00 PM
This AE 35 Monophone provides the confirmation of ringer code 8 being for 42 Hz.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12961.msg136771#msg136771

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 20, 2017, 09:32:32 PM
Not exactly "base" codes anymore, but highly related, I expanded the previous list into a cross reference table.

A few columns can probably still be added, namely for the 34A3A (ca 1939) and for the AE 40 and 50s in the 1940s.
I only have those as a listing in terms of those abbreviated catalog numbers, that are useless for us, because the ringers were always marked with order numbers, not the catalog numbers.

So we have to compile the remaining ringer numbers from observations, in case they are different than what I already listed.
I do think the 34A3A ringers are different because they needed to lay flat on the base, rather than being mounted at an angle.

When going through the catalogs, it is interesting to note that AE never uses the term synchromonic, they just call them harmonic.  That even later, when they do distinguish decimonic ringers as such.


[updated]
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on February 20, 2017, 11:45:56 PM
PS:  I don't actually recall having seen the code 17 for a 16 2/3 Hz ringer, so this is a bit of speculation, but I believe I have seen code 67.

I have records of the following "two digit" ringer codes from Telephone Base Codes of 40's and 50's:
20
25
30
33
50
54
66
67

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on February 20, 2017, 11:49:24 PM
This AE 35 Monophone provides the confirmation of ringer code 8 being for 42 Hz.

Interesting that they put both the 8 and the frequency 42 on that Base Code.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 21, 2017, 08:20:43 AM
Interesting that they put both the 8 and the frequency 42 on that Base Code.

Terry
Usually the frequency is only stamped on the schematic insert.

I should probably change the 17 back to 16, because the replacement ringers of 1958 list it as -A16R, while showing the 66.6 Hz ringer as -A67R.
Since there was no need to distinguish it from 16 (unused by AE) they probably just used 16.
Interesting that you haven't found either one, 16 or 17, perhaps it was used only rarely in AE country, or perhaps not at all by your experience.

But someone was using it, as that schematic with 16.6~ printed on it documents.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: dsk on February 26, 2017, 04:04:30 PM
I do still struggle with dating my AE40 even when the information needed still is in this thread, My phone is tamped L 2143 ESL and KJ7
The diagram is D-53940 issue 7

Please help.

dsk
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 26, 2017, 04:12:22 PM
I do still struggle with dating my AE40 even when the information needed still is in this thread, My phone is tamped L 2143 ESL and KJ7
The diagram is D-53940 issue 7

Please help.

dsk
It's not that easy.   I am sure yours is "L 4123 ESL" These could be made anywhere from 1948 or so to 1957.
All this tells us that it is a standard straight-line set with dial.
What is the form number on the decal/label with the patent numbers, it should be something like  D-780504-A41, where the -A41 in particular may be different.  Other than that, you have to evaluate the components, number card style, wiring, to make a judgement about refurbishing time.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: dsk on February 26, 2017, 04:28:01 PM
You are right about L-4123 ESL The label with with patent numbers are mostly missing it could be D-780504-A41, but the circuit diagram is D-53940 issue 7. The SL ringer is of a newer type with 2x 2kohms coils, and 0.4 microFarad capacitor. The transmitter capsule is stamped D-38309-A and A.E. CO 41 and CU The receiver is stamped D5189-A Type 41 CU A.E.CO And it has an H pressed in to the metal.

dsk
 
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7700.0;attach=40984;image) (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7700.0;attach=40984;image)
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 26, 2017, 05:04:52 PM
You are right about L-4123 ESL The label with with patent numbers are mostly missing it could be D-780504-A41, but the circuit diagram is D-53940 issue 7. The SL ringer is of a newer type with 2x 2kohms coils, and 0.4 microFarad capacitor. The transmitter capsule is stamped D-38309-A and A.E. CO 41 and CU The receiver is stamped D5189-A Type 41 CU A.E.CO And it has an H pressed in to the metal.

dsk
 


The patent label is intact enough to confirm that it is D-780504-A41.
That places the set between 1952 and 1957.
The handset was replaced at some point, but the receiver and transmitter elements are either original to the handset, or were replaced at the same time.
Next you need to look at the dial.

Indeed that looks like KJ7
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: dsk on February 27, 2017, 12:51:42 PM
I hope these may help:
dsk
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 27, 2017, 08:42:08 PM
I hope these may help:
dsk

I think this is one of those transition dials, formally still a 24A36, but already having the die-cast housing. These seem to show up in 1949, shown in Tech.Bulletin 528 (?).  It predates the Type 51 and has single contact springs, so not a 51A either.
Did you print the number card yourself ?  It is the style that came out in 1955.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: dsk on February 28, 2017, 12:30:27 AM
The card is d.i.y, it came like this: (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7700.0;attach=65013;image)
dsk
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 28, 2017, 10:38:49 AM
The card is d.i.y, it came like this:
dsk
I like the original card.  It's likely from the very late 1950s to early/mid 1960s, showing the area code.  GIbson was in Columbia, Missouri, today NPA 573, almost at the border of NPA 816, now 660. Half-way between St. Louis and Kansas City.
Much of the area is still running Automatic Electric switches even today.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: dsk on February 28, 2017, 01:30:52 PM
Thank you, I think I have to call the phone approx 1950, it is in daily use connected to my (probably) 1946 PBX .
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on February 28, 2017, 01:48:44 PM
It is definitely younger than early 1952.
The dial number plate is also lacking the Z on the 0-position, and I am assuming that was removed in the same time frame as Western Electric did (1953).
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: dsk on March 01, 2017, 02:03:48 PM
Maybe it is put together of different parts, did they use cloth covered cords inside the phone as late as 53?

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: dsk on March 02, 2017, 12:41:53 PM
I have another phone (WE D1) with an AE dial marked:  marked 29 and CB with red ink, and the metal is stamped A.E.Co type 24.
When did they make such dials?

dsk
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: rdelius on March 02, 2017, 01:30:53 PM
The type 24 dials were introduced about 1926 and the 24a36 replaced it about 1936.At some point the dials were marked AE inc in an oval and later sometimes in the 1930s AECO in a diamond
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 02, 2017, 03:02:35 PM
From what I have seen the type 24's had the Oval AE logo. Type 24's make the loud clicks as it is would up. I have seen dials with the Oval logo that either don't click or click very quietly. I assume these are 24A36 dials due to the quiet or non existent clicking on wind up but they still had the Oval logo at that point. Unless possibly the type 24 dial was upgraded from type 24 to 24A36 with pawl quieting. Originally I thought the logo change was pretty much he same time as the 24A36 introduction. But then I previously thought the cast dial case meant it was at least a type 51 as well.

I really have trouble figuring out model types for AE dials. Am I correct in thinking that the dial needs to be disassembled to determine if it has pawl quieting and what method was used? I haven't figured out anything to look for to confirm dial type except that if it has bifurcated contacts it is a 51A or later.

Cast versus stamped case doesn't line up with model types.
Logo types don't seem to line up with model changes.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on March 02, 2017, 03:31:30 PM
Dear AE Collector:

ISTR that to see if the AE rotary 24 type dial has a silencening pawl, you only need to remove the finger wheel and cardholder to check for it; it is visible as a small tab near the top of the fingerwheel mount; mist of it is hidden under the fingerwheel mount.

Frankly I've never thought of the windup clicks
on an unquieted AE dial to be all that loud, the clicks sort of remind me of an unoiled windup clock when u wind it.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: dsk on March 02, 2017, 03:59:00 PM
The AE marking is in an oval, and the dial has loud clicks when windup, compared to the dial in my AE40 it is noisy. Since the Norwegian phones always has been noisy (Like Antwerp phones) that has never got my attention before. This AE dial has the same contact configuration as a WE302.
The D1 with this dial is here: http://tinyurl.com/gm2l4g6  and the interesting thing is to have a WE with original chematics describing a dial from AE:
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16437.0;attach=145357;image)

dsk
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 02, 2017, 04:07:17 PM
Yes, winding some sort of clock is what the type 24 clicks remind me of.

There are two methods of pawl quieting though I think. So thing about piano wire for one of the methods, probably in the 24A36. I think the 24A36 is still supposed to click on wind up but barely audible (?). Maybe the "other than piano wire" method was introduced on the type 51 and completely eliminated the clicks.

Terry

Dear AE Collector:

ISTR that to see if the AE rotary 24 type dial has a silencening pawl, you only need to remove the finger wheel and cardholder to check for it; it is visible as a small tab near the top of the fingerwheel mount; mist of it is hidden under the fingerwheel mount.

Frankly I've never thought of the windup clicks
on an unquieted AE dial to be all that loud, the clicks sort of remind me of an unoiled windup clock when u wind it.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 08, 2017, 08:12:36 PM
Here is something interesting.

On a Type 810 receiver capsule in the handset of a Camellia Pink 183 Space Saver.

Instead of a two letter code it has "wk. 266". This phone seems to have been made March 1962 by the 3-62-10 stamped code on the back of the 183.

Wk. 266 most likely stands for Week 266 I would think. They seemed to be playing with numerous different dating standards from late 50's to early 60's. So a little more confirmation that the two letter codes reference a date and an indication that AE kept track of week numbers rather than maybe months or "two week" time frames. The two letter codes would quite likely increment by the week as well. Therefore two complete alphabets in possibly the right position could be used to indicate a full year cycle with the left position incrementimg at the beginning of the year and again mid year. In this scenario they could cover 13 years but also may valve elected to start over after 10 years. Hard to say.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 08, 2017, 08:19:39 PM
You don't think the WK is the normal two-letter code, and  266 is the second week of 1966 ?
What is printed on the transmitter and the telephone body?
Ok, I can see the printing on the body.  NB 830 C  3-62-10
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 08, 2017, 08:58:32 PM
Of course anything is possible.

One difference wth the WK code here is that it seems to have a period after the K. I have not seen a period after any other two letter codes. And I have never seen digits such as 266 after the two letter codes before.

The transmitter capsule is marked A.E.CO 810 and coincidentally seems to have two letter code AE. If this capsule is original to the phone I guess it could be reasonable to have a capsule made in the 5th week (E) of the year in a phone ultimately marked as produced in March of the year. This could indicate that year A (or first half of a year) was 1962.

I could not find any other two letter codes or dates anywhere in this phone.

Certainly every phone model could have its own separate start date for two letter codes but this would seem a difficult system to manage especially considering type 81/810 handsets being used on so many different models in this era.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 09, 2017, 12:19:21 AM
And my Dawn Gray 183:

Thought I was on to something with this one but then realized it is May 1961 which is 10 months older than the pink 183.  This ones receiver also has WK. but is followed by 224 rather than 226.

The transmitter in this gray 183 from May 1961 looks to have two letter code ED where as the Pink 183 from March 1962 had Code AE. That sort of makes it look like the second letter field D=1961 and E=1962. The first letter could even be one letter per month with A (January) being in a March phone and E (May) in a May phone.

Lots of speculation. I need to check some more of these early 60's sets. A bit off track from the 40/50's but this all helps figure out the patterns they were using.

Terry

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 09, 2017, 01:26:27 AM
I ran out of time to do more research this evening but even so, I'm pumped! Wish I had moved on to 80/90 series phones sooner. I've seen enough tonight to say that I am convinced, these two letter codes are date codes.

The first letter is the month but it could be incremented every two weeks as I have some letters higher than L.

The second letter is the year incremented just once a year. Year A is 1958. So did they start at A-1958 because of the move yo Northlake? Or were these codes specific to individual models and 1958 may have been the very earliest 183 set? Or did it start back in 1932 and rolled over to A again in 1958?

Since all the 40/50 sets have these codes as well, this system may have previously started in 1932 at year A. Next to review the two letter codes on the bases/backs of 40/50's to see how they they fit into this.

Incidentally, 183's (Space Savers) have two letters on the back plate but they are almost always a C (Metropolitan Dial) and the second letter is the colour code. Then they have the 3-61-2 type date/assembly line codes as well.

Some of these are hard to see, I will get more samples and pictures soon. The 3 number codes on pieces of electrical tape are just my inventory number.

Examples from phones made in:
C - 1960 Blue 183 / Green 183
D- 1961 Gray 183 / Red 183
E - 1962 Pink 183
V/W - 1979 Avocado Green 192

I have more examples in between these years but I need to work on the pictures some more!

Wouldn't that be something if the second letter of this code nailed down the year that 40's and 50's were made!

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 09, 2017, 03:49:02 PM
Well,  I can add a data point  for a 4123  marked 10-58-11, and code CA, which would map 1958 —> A, in line with your list.  It might be reasonable to assume that the started new in Northlake, but for the entire production life of AE 40 and 50 it doesn't work out.

I already have 22 letters for the span of 1939 to 1957, which is a span of 19 years.
If I look at just those with B, of which I have 10 in the database, I could place it in at least three different years based on the patent lists, namely 1943, 1948, and 1952.
If I test for the adjacent 'C' (a year later by hypothesis), I get both pre-war and post-war selections.


select qa2,count(*) from ae group by qa2;
+------+----------+
| qa2  | count(*) |
+------+----------+
|      |       16 |
| ?    |        2 |
| A    |        5 |
| B    |       10 |
| C    |        6 |
| D    |        5 |
| E    |        3 |
| F    |        3 |
| G    |        7 |
| H    |        5 |
| J    |        8 |
| K    |        7 |
| L    |        4 |
| M    |        1 |
| N    |        5 |
| O    |        6 |
| P    |        3 |
| R    |        6 |
| S    |        7 |
| T    |        4 |
| U    |        8 |
| X    |        4 |
| Y    |        3 |
| Z    |        5 |
+------+----------+
24 rows in set (0.00 sec)


So, for second letters, I am missing letters I, Q, V, W.

For first letters, I am missing I,Q,V,W, and Z. 
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 09, 2017, 04:48:45 PM
Yes I only did a very quick scan of the 40/50's second letter of tge two letter codes and while may looked potentially on track for a A-1932 start, many others didn't.

I thought I recalled some Top of the alphabet letters for the late model (Northlake) 47 sets which initially seemed odd for late 40/50 type sets to have top of the alphabet year codes but it is starting to make sense now.

I have been going through 80/90 series (183's and 192's so far actually) phones from the 1960's and 70's this afternoon. Once I have more recorded I will make a chart. Besides dates on the back of the phone I am mainly finding two letter codes on transmitters and receivers which of course could easily have been changed or moved around. I am finding two letter codes on quite a few dials as well. Here is some of what I have found so far.

Month-Year / Two Letter Codes Observed:
3-1960 AC
12-1960 OC & CC
9-1961 CD
9-1965 EL (only code found - it was on receiver but it doesn't fit the pattern)
5-1971 EN
3-1979 CV & EW (EW is likely 1980)

Terry


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 10, 2017, 01:45:26 AM
I will check my records to see if I can find any of the letters that you have no records for Unbeldi. Are your records primarily base/back plates of 40/50 series phones or can they be from other components and possibly 80/90 series phones?

I recorded a few more phones today but need to do more. All indications are that all or virtually all letters are being used for the Year and quite likely a letter every two weeks or maybe a letter for the first and another for the last half of the month. I need to record more samples.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 10, 2017, 08:59:22 AM
I included only the base plate codes from 40, 47, and 50 type sets in that count until the coding changed to month-year-something in 1957.
I do have others too, 34, 43, 80 type sets.

This count was the reason I had already abandoned the idea that the codes were simply a "<some period>-year"-type coding.  If it were we should also expect to see the same coding across product lines. As you stated, it would be way too confusing for a company to have independent coding systems for each product, especially in light of the fact that transmitters and receivers are identical for many different products.  What would be the purpose to code them differently, no one could trace anything back to manufacturing if presented only with a defective transmitter.  The codes have to be unique otherwise the whole system is useless.

It would be interesting to figure out when AE starting coding sets this way.  I have records from 1A sets, I think, but I don't know how old those are, but it has a five-point hookswitch which I don't think existed before 1932-1934 perhaps.  None of the #2 Monophones I have seen have codes stamped, but it is hard to see that in most pictures, because the plates always seem surface oxidized.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 10, 2017, 10:39:22 AM
I actually do have one record with the letter 'I' in the first position:

Z 22954-1 IX9      D-780504-A41; chrome trim & dial, black lift bar, (Z|OPER|0), 2-line numcard

I don't know whether I recorded it correctly or not. One of those non-standard markings with what appears to be some customer number or other order number, presumably from the period 1952 to 1955.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 10, 2017, 11:35:15 AM
If they used all 26 letters in the potential 1932-57 / A-Z timeframe, X could be 1955 since A appears to restart in 1958.

I have been trying to create a bunch more records of 80/90 series phones where I can get both a date off the base and two letter codes off components. Then I will start a chart once I get enough samples. From what I have so far I am not seeing any indication that they skipped any of the I, O, or Q's for the year in the 1958 - 1983 timeframe. But small sample size thus far.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 10, 2017, 11:48:24 AM
If they used all 26 letters in the potential 1932-57 / A-Z timeframe, X could be 1955 since A appears to restart in 1958.

I have been trying to create a bunch more records of 80/90 series phones where I can get both a date off the base and two letter codes off components. Then I will start a chart once I get enough samples. From what I have so far I am not seeing any indication that they skipped any of the I, O, or Q's for the year in the 1958 - 1983 timeframe. But small sample size thus far.

Terry

Yes, I had noticed that too.  Somehow, 1932 also seems a reasonable starting year perhaps. It's about the time the 34A3 was getting ready.  If we eliminate just a couple letters for fear of confusion, and move the start up to 1934, we are exactly on the year of the 34A3, without changing the end.    Also, we need to examine the issue of those cases in which the digit was printed first.   Does that mean the entire code was reversed, or only the digit placed first?      It seems to me that this occurred more frequently on early codings.   For example, the 1A I mentioned starts with 7.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 12, 2017, 08:40:24 PM
Here are three observations of Type 40 phones.  All three were apparently made at the beginning of the war period, they have the same patent stamp of that period. The finish of the bottom plate is identical, they all have the code prefix T, and two of them have the code sequence "HC1", another is "4OH".  The two dial instruments both have numbers-only dials, both have chrome trim and have the holes in the cradle for the butler lift handle.  It also seems the rubber buffer around the base was equally broken up, i.e. missing today.  The ink stamping of the type is identical in shape, spacing, and intensity on all three sets.  Good ink.  The rubber grommets for the ringer mount are the same tan rubber that we know was used by WECo for dial adapters until 1941.

TN 4028 B0 HC1      1939 stamp, no dial with magneto wood subset
TN 4020 A0 HC1      1939 stamp, numbers only dial, chrome trim on dial and handset, no liftbar, butler holes
TN 4020 A0 4OH      1939 stamp, numbers only dial, chrome trim on dial and handset, no liftbar, butler holes

If we reverse the sequence "4OH"  to "HO4", the three sets also have the "H" in common, which could be interpreted as a year.  Interestingly, if we start the year counting in 1932 with A, then H is 1939 !

The 4028 is a local battery set for use with a magneto subset and the 4020 is the common and most frequently encountered CB set of the early low-impedance ringer class.

It is clear that these set were made in the same period. The convergence of features in these sets may be an indication that the codes that have a leading digit should be reversed when compared to codes that have the digit in the trailing position.  Interestingly, the leading-digit set has a different digit, 4.   Does this indicate a different location somehow, perhaps a different assembly line or QA line which used reversed stamps ?

I also have Type 5000 listed, with code HC9.   5000 was the code for the first made wall phones.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 12:29:53 AM
Interesting. I have NO "T" prefixes in my records so far.

You recently mentioned a set with NLL format rather than LLN in the third field. I cant recall what the Number was but it wasn't 4. I had the feeling then that the majority of the records I have where Number and Letters are reversed like this was with Number 4. I just went through my records and the reversed instances are listed below. Four early 40'S, AN EARLY 50, A 34a3 AND A 35a5:

SN   4020   A0   4B0 (40)
SN   4020   A0   4FR (40)
SN   4020   A0   4BG (40)
SN   4022   A0   4RS (40)
L      5000   B0   9XR (50)
L      253   A0   90A (34A3)
L      370   A0   9CS (35A5)

I am not certain if the 34 and the 35 are valid comparisons or not as I have only three records of 34/35 sets that include the third field of which two of them are in reverse order.

The 40's and 50's with the reversed scenario are all early sets similar to your 3 examples.

I picture the possibility of assembly line "4" having a stamp that had damaged numbers or letters in certain positions so they simply reversed to order to make use of otherwise unused numbers in the letter position or visa versa. I guess it could be that simple or it could be a highly technical reason for the reversal. I would have thought that they would keep the letters in the correct relationship to each other even if they reversed the number and letters positioning rather than flipping them like a mirror image. But we need to be able to think as they may have 75-80 years ago.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 13, 2017, 09:36:14 AM
Have some of those too, probably because I did record forum observations.

Interestingly, all of my sets with a properly trailing 4 are AE50s (four), and all of those with a leading 4 are those early 4020 or 4022 sets.

PS:  Ah, sorry, actually that is not true.  I also have a SN 4020 A3 AS4.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 13, 2017, 11:12:06 AM
Do you (or anyone) have any records for a 4030 or 4036 ?
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 13, 2017, 11:54:05 AM
Sometimes, or often, I have to wonder whether they even had a fixed rule for the sequence of these codes.

SN 4020 B5 SA7
SN 4020 A3 AS4

See these examples, both SN4020 sets, both have early patent stamps (1939), one apparently has better corrosion protection.  Both already have black rubber grommets. Both probably made between 1939 and 1943.   How can the codes be so far off,   "A" vs. "S", no matter which we take as "year".  Or should AS4  really be flipped to make it "SA4"?

But neither A nor S fit into our conceived code plan, no matter which year it starts exactly.

Different base finish might indicate different plant locations, or perhaps a different assembly line for experiments with new materials.


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 01:18:48 PM
Yes that is puzzling. I think the bases with that silvery look are brass where as the corroded base must be steel with some sort of anodized or galvanized finish? Likely more war time changes?

I have wondered if there is any likelihood that sets with the leading S prefix (and maybe the T as well) could be refurbished where the operation was organized enough to re-stamp the codes to some extent. WECo did it (properly re-stamped refurbished sets and upgraded parts) so maybe phones sent to AE plants for refurbishing were properly re-stamped.  Who knows if any other coding would have been changed at refurbishing. Possibly dial in ringer codes would be but production date/assembly line codes...wouldn't think so.

Frequently these additional leading letters look as though they were added in a separate stamping operation, not along with the main (original) letter. Adding a letter to the far left of the codes would be an easy way to indicate that it was refurbished and the plant or line (S or T) that did the work. As previously concluded, all instances of a leading P indicates a Canadian Phone (P = Phillips or Later AE Canada) but I am not certain if all Canadian Phones have the leading P or maybe just refurbished (in Canada) phones? I suspect that ALL Canadian made phones have the P.

Do there seem to be more lower numbered "order code number" phones with the additional S or T prefix? Logically more early production 40/50 phones would have been in service for a length of time, removed from service fir whatever reason, sent for refurbishment and then redeployed again. Generally the newer 40/50 sets (higher order number codes) would have begun to be removed when they were replaced with newer models such as 80/90 series phones and the takeouts would have been more likely to be scrapped as obsolete rather than being refurbished again.

And another possibility could be a timeframe where AE offered refurbishing services to Telco's that may have latter been shut down.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 02:12:25 PM
Do you (or anyone) have any records for a 4030 or 4036 ?


I have zero records of any 403x phones at all.

Back to the SN or SL phones here is what I have records of. It is primarily the lower order numbered 40xx sets but two 4123's slipped in as well. The 50 sets are all 50xx sets:
SL   4123   ?SL   
SL   4123   ASL   UB9
SN   4020   A0   GH7
SN   4020   A0   4B0
SN   4020   A0   4FR
SN   4020   A0   4BG
SN   4022   A0   RS1
SN   4022   A0   4RS
SN   4023   A6   XL7
SN   4046   B0   TK7
SN   4053   A0   GH9
SN   402(?)

SL   5000   A0   RB5
SL   5000   A4   LE9
SL   5016   D0   EO5
SZL   5002   A0   GB9

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 02:18:47 PM
And while I am at it here is my list of PL/PN sets. Notice that there is never a digit in the third (date/line) field, the P at the very beginning identifies them as phones made in Canada so the final digit isn't needed or isn't used to identify an assembly line. And unlike the S added to the front of the code which primarily is on 40xx/50xx phones, I have more P 51xx examples showing that the P was likely used throughout the production time frame. Remember that wwhere there is a third letter in the third field such as the very bottom 5100 phone, that is a color code.

PL   4103   HSLT   OP
PN   4023   E0   NR
PN   4023   K0   ET
PN   4023   K0   ER(?)

PL   5001   K0   
PL   5001   K0   None
PL   5001   K0   JL
PL   5001   K0   None
PL   5001   K0   JS
PL   5001   K0   ??
PL   5100   D20   O
PL   5100   D20T   TN
PL   5100   D30   AN
PL   5100   DSL   O
PL   5100   E20   OGE
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 13, 2017, 02:32:23 PM
I have zero records of any 403x phones at all.


You should at least have this one:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16986.msg180433#msg180433
You posted it, lol.

It's one of those felt-covered bottoms where we can see the number only on the schematic inside.
I couldn't decide whether another the set was a 4030 or 4036, so my reason for asking.  I have to find the picture again, I probably saved it.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 02:42:19 PM
While we are making more progress than ever before on this project, it will obviously go on for some time yet. We need a standard reference for the various sections of code so we can be clearer about what in particular we are discussing.

Using this as an example:
PL   5100   E20   OG9E

How about:
P is a Prefix (if present)
L is the Order Letter
5100 is the Order Number
E20 is the "Second Field" or Equipment Field (we know it identifies the Dial and Ringer)
OG9E is the "Third Field" or Date, Line, Color Field (we are pretty much convinced that the two letters are a Date indicator, the number is an Assembly Line and we are 100% certain that when present the final letter is a Color Code)

Or should we refer to the contents of the second and third field more directly as:
Dial Code
Ringer Code
Date Code
Assembly Line Code
Color Code

While we aren't claiming that these names for the fields 100% indicative of the contents of the fields, I think we are close enough to use these names to simplify discussion

Thus: PL   5100   E20   OG9E would be:

P - Prefix (if present and can be a two letter Prefix before the Order Letter)
L - Order Letter
5100 - Order Number
E - Dial Code
20 - Ringer Code
OG - Date Code
9 - Assembly Line Code
E - Color Code

Any thoughts welcome!

Terry


Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 13, 2017, 02:50:20 PM
While we are making more progress than ever before on this project, it will obviously go on for some time yet. We need a standard reference for the various sections of code so we can be clearer about what in particular we are discussing.


I think 2nd and 3rd field is fine for now.  Especially for the 3rd, since we still don't know what it represents.  People read these posts from the Internet, I am sure, and someone may try to look smarter than we are by using more specific terms, such as assembly line.   This is how rumors get started, for example, like people call the final digit in WECo date stamps, a shift number.  There is no evidence of that, in fact there no evidence even to suggest that they ran shifts 24/7, but there is to the contrary.

While we think that we understand the 2nd group, it is not at all clear to me what a  J or K coded dial would be.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 02:56:33 PM
You should at least have this one:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16986.msg180433#msg180433
You posted it, lol.

It's one of those felt-covered bottoms where we can see the number only on the schematic inside.
I couldn't decide whether another the set was a 4030 or 4036, so my reason for asking.  I have to find the picture again, I probably saved it.

Yeah that one didn't make my list because I don't have the rest of the phone. I have tried to weed out the ones where I cant get a reasonable amount of the information about the entire phone. I didn't even pay any attention to the code on the felt base until now. Too bad I didn't have the rest of it. Maybe I do, I will have to watch for it.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 03:13:39 PM
I think 2nd and 3rd field is fine for now.  Especially for the 3rd, since we still don't know what it represents.  People read these posts from the Internet, I am sure, and someone may try to look smarter than we are by using more specific terms, such as assembly line.   This is how rumors get started, for example, like people call the final digit in WECo date stamps, a shift number.  There is no evidence of that, in fact there no evidence even to suggest that they ran shifts 24/7, but there is to the contrary.

While we think that we understand the 2nd group, it is not at all clear to me what a  J or K coded dial would be.

Okay, good points.

PL   5100   E20   OG9E

P - Prefix (if present and can be a two letter Prefix before the Order Letter)
L - Order Letter
5100 - Order Number
E20 - Second Field
OG9E - Third Field

Potentially these should have been Third field and Fourth Field but we have already been calling them Second and Third Fields. And the Initial letter and 4 digit number are related to each other (somehow) as Order Numbers.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 03:20:32 PM
While inventorying my AE 183 collection I discovered something a little bit interesting with regards to L versus N numbering. Check out this list. The Thing in common with the L versus N sets....Manual Compensator on the L sets.

183   Beige-Sand   L   8311   CB
183   Beige-Sand   NB   830   CB
183   Black-Ebony   L   8308   B2
183   Black-Ebony   NB   830   CA
183   Black-Ebony   NB   830   CA
183   Blue-FMN   L   8311   CK
183   Gray-Dawn   NB   830   CC
183   Green-Jade   L   8311   CD
183   Green-Jade   NB   830   AD
183   Green-Jade   NB   830   AD
183   Ivory-Classic   NB   830   CE
183   Ivory-Classic   NB   830   CE
183   Pink-Camellia   NB   830   CL
183   Red-Garnet   NB   830   CF
183   Turquoise     NB   830   CG
183   White-Gardenia   NB   830   CM
183   Yellow-Sunlight   NB   830   CM
183   Yellow-Sunlight   NB   830   CJ

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 13, 2017, 03:38:31 PM
While inventorying my AE 183 collection I discovered something a little bit interesting with regards to L versus N numbering. Check out this list. The Thing in common with the L versus N sets....Manual Compensator.

There was a similar pattern for the Type 80.  One of the modifications had the order number L-800x, instead of N-80 or N-81.

The N vs. L for type 40 sets goes pretty much strictly along with 40 vs. 41.  It is always N-40xx and L-41xx, with a few exceptions. Perhaps there was some short period of overlap.

Wall phones always used L-50xx and L-51xx, never N.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 03:58:08 PM
The 4055N Catalog listed a whole bunch of letter codes for AE SATT dials that I initially thought was promising to decode some of the letters beyond the ABC range that we understand for 40/50 telephones. See picture below. I assume that they were allowing phones with these SATT dials to be ordered pre set for the party where they would be installed. Seems a bit overkill but if viewed from a point of view where a Telco decided to convert an entire office to SATT Long Distance operation this may make sense.

In any event, these dial codes must most likely have just been put together for 80/90 dials as from what we have seen the 40/50 telephones used the Order Number to specify a SATT dial versus a Conventional Dial. Then the A or C of the Second Field specified Numbers Only or Metropolitan Number Plate.

I don't know enough about SATT A versus SATT B and which came first. They assigned these letters to the two types in reverse (SATT B then A) order for whatever reason. There would be a small chance that the occasional Dial Letter D, E etc on 40/50 Base Codes could have specified how a SATT Dial equipped phone was pre set from the factory while the Order Number was what specified that the phone actually HAD a SATT dial.

The letters below is a good example of where AE chose to skip the "confusing" letters I, O and Q.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 04:17:16 PM
Wall phones always used L-50xx and L-51xx, never N.

This is the most puzzling thing to me. 40's and 50's were electrically the same so what is it that led to their being absolutely No N50's when 40's appear to have started out as N40's initially. Almost like they were sort of using L and N as simple indicators of various differences between two otherwise similar models. With the 40 and 50 N was desk phones and L was wall phones....for awhile at least until L desk phones appeared. In 183 Space Makers, L was manually compensated and N Automatic compensation. Yet, the 80 came before the 183 and they started out as N sets even though they had Manual Compensators.

Our work isn't quite done yet.....

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: HarrySmith on March 13, 2017, 04:31:29 PM
While inventorying my AE 183 collection I discovered something a little bit interesting with regards to L versus N numbering. Check out this list. The Thing in common with the L versus N sets....Manual Compensator on the L sets.

183   Beige-Sand   L   8311   CB
183   Beige-Sand   NB   830   CB
183   Black-Ebony   L   8308   B2
183   Black-Ebony   NB   830   CA
183   Black-Ebony   NB   830   CA
183   Blue-FMN   L   8311   CK
183   Gray-Dawn   NB   830   CC
183   Green-Jade   L   8311   CD
183   Green-Jade   NB   830   AD
183   Green-Jade   NB   830   AD
183   Ivory-Classic   NB   830   CE
183   Ivory-Classic   NB   830   CE
183   Pink-Camellia   NB   830   CL
183   Red-Garnet   NB   830   CF
183   Turquoise     NB   830   CG
183   White-Gardenia   NB   830   CM
183   Yellow-Sunlight   NB   830   CM
183   Yellow-Sunlight   NB   830   CJ

Terry

Terry,

ONLY 18 183's?? I thought you had hundreds!! :)
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 13, 2017, 04:53:15 PM
N/L seems to have nothing to do with features, just some bureaucratic coding. I don't put too much significance into N versus L.

L was always the standard order number prefix for almost all AE equipment.

I think we should interpret N meaning NEW. :)

The type 50 didn't really look that new compared to the 35, certainly less than the 40 looked different from the 34.
By the time it came to switch to high-impedance ringers, N reverted back to L. I think this was ca. 1948/49, same time the L4106/11 (Type 47) came out.
Some short time after the switch, when someone wanted low-impedance ringer set from the factory, they appear to have been coded  L-40xx.   The L stayed, the 41 reverted to 40.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 13, 2017, 06:44:43 PM
The 4055N Catalog listed a whole bunch of letter codes for AE SATT dials that I initially thought was promising to decode some of the letters beyond the ABC range that we understand for 40/50 telephones. See picture below. I assume that they were allowing phones with these SATT dials to be ordered pre set for the party where they would be installed. Seems a bit overkill but if viewed from a point of view where a Telco decided to convert an entire office to SATT Long Distance operation this may make sense.

In any event, these dial codes must most likely have just been put together for 80/90 dials as from what we have seen the 40/50 telephones used the Order Number to specify a SATT dial versus a Conventional Dial. Then the A or C of the Second Field specified Numbers Only or Metropolitan Number Plate.

I don't know enough about SATT A versus SATT B and which came first. They assigned these letters to the two types in reverse (SATT B then A) order for whatever reason. There would be a small chance that the occasional Dial Letter D, E etc on 40/50 Base Codes could have specified how a SATT Dial equipped phone was pre set from the factory while the Order Number was what specified that the phone actually HAD a SATT dial.

The letters below is a good example of where AE chose to skip the "confusing" letters I, O and Q.

Terry

Thanks for the pointer to those tables.  I had forgot about those.
I have never noticed a SATT dial when the coding was K or J, but I have only very few listed.  I have on the other hand noticed the distinct order number for SATT telephones, 4107, 4119, and could verify the presence of a SATT dial.  SATT probably became only prominent in the 1950s with the push for DDD, I have not recorded any SATT dials on low-impedance ringer sets, I believe.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 06:55:29 PM
Terry,

ONLY 18 183's?? I thought you had hundreds!! :)

No, that must be Stub!!

I do have the complete set and a couple of spares though....

I may have a couple hundred Stylelines though. Waiting for them to be worth $100 each. Or anyone who just wants to start collecting a full set of Stylelines....

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 07:08:10 PM
N/L seems to have nothing to do with features, just some bureaucratic coding. I don't put too much significance into N versus L.

L was always the standard order number prefix for almost all AE equipment.

I think we should interpret N meaning NEW. :)

The type 50 didn't really look that new compared to the 35, certainly less than the 40 looked different from the 34.
By the time it came to switch to high-impedance ringers, N reverted back to L. I think this was ca. 1948/49, same time the L4106/11 (Type 47) came out.
Some short time after the switch, when someone wanted low-impedance ringer set from the factory, they appear to have been coded  L-40xx.   The L stayed, the 41 reverted to 40.


Well that is possible as well, N for new circuits being developed, produced, field trialled etc. Maybe it stuck for awhile in production and then eventually changed back to the standard L codes leaving N available for the next new design. AE50's came a bit after the 40 so maybe that is why they went straight to L codes, they were electrically equivalent to 40's so no need to make them N codes. All seems sort of silly but we haven't got a better explanation at the moment!

When we have nothing better to do we can try to figure out why they seem to have started with L and what L means. Maybe Strowger sets went through Alphabetic revisions eventually landing at L for 2 wire common battery systems.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 13, 2017, 07:28:04 PM
L-numbers seem to have started in the early 1930s.  The 1929 catalog uses simple numbers without letter prefix for whole telephone assemblies.  For example, a 1A Monophone was a 1003, IIRC.  Most of the Monophones used the type number of the set as a hundred group.  A #4 Monophone was 401, a #14 was 1401...  Even a No. 21 was 2100.

Piece part numbers were D-numbers.  Circuit drawings were H-numbers.   Many tools were H-numbers too.
At one time they seem to have started using L-numbers by the first 4055 catalog.  But the simple numbers were listed too.  A 1003 was still the 1A, but the new sets, such as the 34A3 was an L-22x.
I'd like to find the 4014, 4037, 5002 catalogs for the development of this.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 08:36:38 PM
To me the 1A set WAS a 1003 until just the last few years when I have had to retrain myself to call it a 1A once dealing with other collectors online. I called them 1003's (One Thousand and Three) for years and my friend grant who just passed away always called them 1003's.

Yes those "missing" catalogs would likely have some interesting info in them. They must be out there somewhere. Will have to keep looking and asking and more info will turn up. I am working on Gary Goff to see what he has on his book shelves. My friend Grant had a book case full of books and catalogs that I will go through to make certain there isn't something there that I don't have. I have looked through his paperwork in the past but probably wasn't looking from a viewpoint to solving some of these mysteries at that time.

Terry

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 13, 2017, 11:04:13 PM
I just posted in the AE Catalogs topic that I found an earlier version of the Automatic Electric Publications List that Unbeldi just made available in that topic.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2959.msg40198#msg40198

This version from January 1948 is a complete update of the list of all AE Publications available as of January 1948. It is called "Digest of technical publications" Engineering Memorandum 3013 January 1948 Edition.

I was able to get the titles of these 3 "missing" catalogs from this 3013 Catalog:
4014 - "Dial Telephones and Telephone Parts"  (Catalogue 4055 says it supercedes 4014, 4037 & 5002)
4037 - "Substation Equipment" (Catalogue 4055 says it supercedes 4014, 4037 & 5002)
5002 - "Manual Telephones & Telephone Parts  (Catalogue 4055 says it supercedes 4014, 4037 & 5002)

And I found listings for a few other catalog's listed that may be of interest:
4013F - "PAX Telephones"
4033B - "Private Telephone Systems and Accessories"
4075B - "Telephone Apparatus & Supplies"

AND, I found a listing for the next catalog I want to find:
"Telephone Instruments 1892 to 1922" Published in September 1922.

When looking up Monophones in the January 1940 3013 it lists the AE 47 set and indicates that a publication is currently being prepared. Thus the 47 set was either available in January 1948 or getting very close to being available.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: stub on March 13, 2017, 11:58:34 PM
Terry,
         I only have 12 and not a full set yet.    stub
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 14, 2017, 12:02:58 AM
Just tossing things of interest into this topic as I find them this evening.

In Technical Bulletin 948-816 "The Toll Switch Train" (Copywrite 1961), inside the cover is a picture of the new 37 Acre Northlake Illinois Plant. It goes on to say "Branch Factories are located at Genoa Illinois and Waukesha Wisconsin. These modern facilities are devoted exclusively to the manufacture of a complete line of Automatic Telephone Equipment, electrical control components and systems".

So, in 1961 those three locations seem to be it for AE manufacturing in the USA. Thus if any of those locations made telephone sets they could have just been another Assembly Line number but they also could have been the S and/or T Prefix just as P was the Canadian plant Prefix. Genoa Illinois would be the Leich Electric Plant wouldn't it? The only problem is that most of the S and T Prefixed phones seem likely to have been made in the 1940's where as these locations are being mentioned in 1961.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 14, 2017, 12:04:51 AM
Terry,
         I only have 12 and not a full set yet.    stub

Oh right, still no jade Green? Is that the only one missing? Are you actively hunting for one on eBay? They aren't that hard to find are they?

Rumour has it that there will be a Clear 183 coming from the workshops of Ray K in the near future.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: stub on March 14, 2017, 12:41:12 AM
Terry,
         I don't have  a C or D and waiting on the clear to come out to see if I can get one. Still looking every where.
         BTW that's great work you and unbeldi are doing on the Codes. Thanks , again  stub   
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 14, 2017, 12:55:43 PM
To me the 1A set WAS a 1003 until just the last few years when I have had to retrain myself to call it a 1A once dealing with other collectors online. I called them 1003's (One Thousand and Three) for years and my friend grant who just passed away always called them 1003's.

Yes those "missing" catalogs would likely have some interesting info in them. They must be out there somewhere. Will have to keep looking and asking and more info will turn up. I am working on Gary Goff to see what he has on his book shelves. My friend Grant had a book case full of books and catalogs that I will go through to make certain there isn't something there that I don't have. I have looked through his paperwork in the past but probably wasn't looking from a viewpoint to solving some of these mysteries at that time.

Terry
I just checked the 1929 catalogs...  The 1A is listed there with order number 103 still, in line with the other low numbered Monophones.  I suppose they changed the order number to 1003 for the version with the 5-point hookswitch.

The designations 103 and 1003 specifically referred to the desk instrument only.  When it was combined with a subset, it was either a 101 or 102, and 1001 or 1002, depending on the ringing arrangement.

I think I have only one listing for an ink stamp of any 1A or 11A on the bottom plate:   ZL 1109 A0 7LK
This was an 11-A with 5point hookswitch.

I suppose, the designation 1-A should be used when one means any of the design type of 1A, i.e. the Monophone model type.  Same for Type 40, which had many specific incarnations, 4020, 4023, 4123, ...
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 14, 2017, 07:40:38 PM
I think I have only one listing for an ink stamp of any 1A or 11A on the bottom plate:   ZL 1109 A0 7LK
This was an 11-A with 5point hookswitch.

So whether the year were K or L, if A=1932 then K=1943 and L=1944 which is very possible for a 1A or 11A.

Of the few records I have of phones with model numbers lower than "40", I have no Third Field Base Codes recorded.
I have an AE 2 with a transmitter code JX (J=1941 & X=1955 both unlikely years so likely replacement parts if A=1932 - Z=1957 is correct)
Stub has an AE 2 with a transmitter code XOC (C could be 1934, a possibility)
Stub has an AE14 L-346 with a transmitter code FK (F=1937 or K=1942 both possibilities)

My two AE2's have dated condensers rather than two letter codes. They are 5-27 and 7-28 fitting in perfectly with the time frame for AE2's. And since they are dated rather than coded that is another indication that two letter codes for dates may have started after 1928, potentially 1932 as we are thinking.

Stub: DO you have a Month-Year stamped on the Condenser in your AE2?

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: poplar1 on March 14, 2017, 10:07:47 PM
Another AE 50 from Nebraska == posssibly sold by Surplus Center and originally used by Lincoln T&T.

L5105 ASL PO6

Chicago 7 Decal #D-780509-B9 (?) D-780504-B9
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: poplar1 on March 14, 2017, 10:17:38 PM
AE 50. May have had a hookswitch latch for party line at one time, but now has straight line ringer.

SL5000 DO E[??]

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: poplar1 on March 14, 2017, 10:23:27 PM
L 5100 ASL [??]
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 14, 2017, 10:24:54 PM
AE 50. May have had a hookswitch latch for party line at one time, but now has straight line ringer.

SL5000 DO E[??]

The "0" in "D0" would indicate a SL ringer initially. Maybe it just somehow wound up with that Hook latch plunger rather than the normal one.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 14, 2017, 10:29:33 PM
Thanks, I already had both [all three] of them in my database.

SL 5000 D0  EG9
L 5105 ASL PO6     D-780504 B9

The decals on AE50s are pretty scarce.  I don't know whether collectors polished them off because they seem to deteriorate particularly on the curved surface.  This one was actually the best B9 label I have collected.

A 5000 type certainly did not have a hookswitch latch originally.

PS:  the third one is also a B9 label, the patent numbers are just arranged a little differently.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 14, 2017, 10:40:40 PM
So far I have   B9, B11, B17, B19, and B23 labels for the AE 50s.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 14, 2017, 11:12:28 PM
Most Canadian phones didn't have the gold decal on the top like that. I think more were ink stamped inside the cover if at all. It always seemed strange to me to put the sticker in such a visible location like that.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: stub on March 14, 2017, 11:35:13 PM
Terry,
        My AE 2 has 7-29 stamped on it. Metal handset cradle. stub
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 14, 2017, 11:48:35 PM
Terry,
        My AE 2 has 7-29 stamped on it.  stub

Okay, that extends the date range out where they were dating the condensers (at least) and not apparently using two letter codes for the date a bit further and closer to 1932.

We have these dates on condensers in 3 different AE2's:

5-27
7-28
7-29

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 15, 2017, 10:15:57 AM
As a sidebar, if we ever solve the puzzle of the 3rd group, we can reward ourselves by moving right along to solve Kellogg's system:

EY !
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 15, 2017, 11:50:23 AM
Looks quite similar! Then we just have to figure which is month and which is year, is it month or two week increments, or maybe one week increments with two different letters per year......never mind, if we figure out AE, I'm retiring!

I wonder how much Kellogg Mike knows?

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 15, 2017, 01:33:55 PM
Looks quite similar! The new just have to figure which is month and which is year, is it month or two week increments, or maybe one week increments with two different letters per year......never mind, if we figure out AE, I'm retiring!

I wonder how much Kellogg Mike knows?

Terry

In the Kellogg case, I believe the first position is the fast moving code, so the year-type period is second.... at least by my observations, I am not sure I have recorded all of them. Probably not in fact.  I don't even know how many of those handsets I have.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 21, 2017, 09:16:06 AM
And while I am at it here is my list of PL/PN sets. Notice that there is never a digit in the third (date/line) field, the P at the very beginning identifies them as phones made in Canada so the final digit isn't needed or isn't used to identify an assembly line. And unlike the S added to the front of the code which primarily is on 40xx/50xx phones, I have more P 51xx examples showing that the P was likely used throughout the production time frame. Remember that wwhere there is a third letter in the third field such as the very bottom 5100 phone, that is a color code.

PL   4103   HSLT   OP
PN   4023   E0   NR
PN   4023   K0   ET
PN   4023   K0   ER(?)

PL   5001   K0   
PL   5001   K0   None
PL   5001   K0   JL
PL   5001   K0   None
PL   5001   K0   JS
PL   5001   K0   ??
PL   5100   D20   O
PL   5100   D20T   TN
PL   5100   D30   AN
PL   5100   DSL   O
PL   5100   E20   OGE

Terry, do you have statistical evidence that the P-prefixed codes occur on sets from certain regions most prevalently?
I think at one time you stated that you seemed to have seen them in your area frequently?
This would be BC Telephone Co. ?

By general observation, I think I agree that they were invariably made in Canada, as determined from other markings, but how many have been found in the US from people who sell just estates, not prior collections.
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 21, 2017, 10:28:13 AM
Many of them in my collection. I record where most phones in my collection came from so I will be able to make a list of the codes on phones in my collection that were acquired locally from other BC Tel employees (highly unlikely to have acquired them anywhere else than from work). Also, frequently Canadian phones have Phillips or AE Canada on the gold decal or stamped elsewhere in the case. I have also seen AE Canada on the sticker on ringers as well.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 21, 2017, 10:53:38 AM
My working hypothesis has been that the leading prefix is a customer designation.

To support that claim, I have basically two data points with some degree of specificity.  Your P-codes and G-codes.

I believe that almost every AE phone made for the Navy, that I have seen stampings or diagrams of, have the prefix "G".  I think there are several Navy phones on the forum with GL-51xx.  Also there is an F-type bulkhead wall set that has GL-7025-A0 printed on its diagram.

The prefix "G" also agrees with the stampings on Western Electric 500-type  TA-236 telephone sets, that have the contract number (or whatever it means) "GA-51859" stamped on the bottom.  Attached is a picture of one of mine. This was for the Signal Corp of the Army.

Perhaps "G" comes from "Government"  or "General Services", the GSA was founded in 1949.

The P codes have specificity because they are only found on sets, so it appears, that were made in Ontario, so they would be delivered to a customer in Canada.  If we can confirm that primary region to be B.C., we can perhaps assign the prefix "P" to B.C. Telephone Co.  We already know that not every telephone made in Ontario was labeled "P".

The most prevalent codes other than P and G, appear to be  "S" and  "T".   Finally, there is a variety of other less common ones, even with two-letter combinations, such as "SZ".

We also find many phones that do not have a standard AE order number (40xx, 41xx, 50xx, 51xx, etc), but have a letter and some larger number.  Those seem to invariably start with a letter from the end of the alphabet (Z, Y, X):
Z 22826-1 TU7, for example.
My guess is that such designations represent contract numbers, or invoice numbers, specifically created for larger customers who need special designation on each phone.


GL-7025-AO:
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1979.0;attach=110509;image)
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 21, 2017, 11:14:08 AM
I am fairly certain that BC Telephone would have been Phillips/AE Canada's largest single customer in Canada during this 1940-60 timeframe. Portions of Quebec were owned by GTE as well but nowhere near as many subscribers as BC Tel had. The three provincial government owned telephone companies in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba all used some AE equipment as well as Northern Electric equipment but British Columbia always had higher population than any of them most of the time. Alberta occasionally had a population close to that of BC.

So, there should be lots of Canadian made non BC Tel AE sets out there and we have some Alberta members on the forum who have AE sets that they acquired locally. I will work at getting codes from some of them specifically.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 21, 2017, 04:08:35 PM
Okay, I have gone through my Excel "Collection" list so these are all phones that I have in my collection, or spares that I will one day get to work on finding new homes for and a few that I have already moved to new homes. The key is that they aren't phone records sent to me from other list members or seen on eBay. I have bought virtually no AE 40/50 phones on eBay, already have too many of them! Many have been acquired from other local collectors and they were pretty much all telco employees thus they weren't buying these on eBay either, they would almost certainly all have been phones owned buy BC Tel at some point in their life. There were a few that I wasn't certain where they came from so I deleted those records. There are also a LOT that I don't have the codes recorded for and didn't go digging through boxes looking for them (yet), I just eliminated those records from this survey.

There are 4 phones recorded here that were not BC Tel phones:
The first row with 3 40 L sets are all phones that were not BCTel phones, bought from the USA on eBay or from fellow phone collectors and they are colored AE's. The fourth non BC Tel phone is one of the 50 L sets, the Mahogany/Walnut 50 I recently bought from Ontario with Phillips/Brockville stamped inside.

So every phone with a P before the L or N (25 of the 42 shown here) I am virtually certain was bought from AE/Phillips by BC Tel.

There is also a single 40 Y and a single 50 Z that also must have been bought by BC Tel. Those XYZ codes seem to be a different category than other letters.

The four 40 N sets and the eight 50 L sets that don't have a "P" also are phones bought by BC Tel and would seem to be earlier models of each that for whatever reason didn't get the "P" added. Were they NOT made in Canada or did Phillips not get onboard with adding the P in the earlier days?

Again, this list is all phones that would have been purchased by BC Tel with the exception of the three 40 N sets where I have indicated "eBay" and one of the 50 L sets.

Mdl   #   Ord L   From and Order #'s
40   3   L   eBay
40   4   N   All BCT 4023 & 4038's
40   2   PL   All BCT 4123's
40   5   PN   All BCT 4023's
40   1   Y   BCT
50   8   L   All BCT 5000 & 5002's
50   18   PL   All BCT 5001 & 5100's
50   1      Z   BCT

So a "P" prefixed before the Order Letter appears to be either Made in Canada OR possibly Made for BC Tel.

Will try to get a few examples from Alberta.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 22, 2017, 03:53:36 PM
In timely manner, I just ran across a Type 40 set that was made in Brockville and bears a B.C. Tel sticker.

P N 4023 K0  ER    INSP 4


http://www.ebay.com/itm/371897205898
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on March 22, 2017, 07:21:06 PM
Yes I probably have the worlds largest supply of AE phones with those rehab shops stickers on the base.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: unbeldi on March 23, 2017, 08:05:06 AM
Yes I probably have the worlds largest supply of AE phones with those rehab shops stickers on the base.

Terry

quod erat demonstrandum.

(or at least faciendum)
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 06, 2018, 02:06:23 PM
I see that I am yet to provide proof to Unbeldi that I may have the worlds biggest collection of phones with BC Telephone repair shop tags in the bases! Soon...

Here we are 10 months later and I am reviving this topic that I am sure had the largest majority of forum members bored to tears! But...do a search on the forum for how many times members have asked what all the letters and numbers on the base of my AE 40 mean. Or when would my AE 50 have been built?

I speculated way back in this topic that those odd stamps of two capital letters (OG, TN, GR etc) virtually always seen on AE Transmitter and receiver capsules & condensers, and sometimes on dials and networks plus making up the third group of codes (CF7, GE3, RD5 etc) on the bases of AE40 era phones ...Could be date codes.

Quite often samples are found where these codes or most of them are the same or close to the same. These are phones that haven’t been messed with much over the years. Other samples have a good mixture of very different “Two Letter Codes” and quite often bare the proof that various parts have been replaced over the years.

There needs to be both matching two letter date codes AND an actual date stamped on a phone to be able to begin to cross reference one to the other. Fortunately AE slipped up and for once threw us AE enthusiasts a bone! They continued two letter coding transmitter and receiver capsules for years after they began dating the bases of 80/90 series telephones in the 10-67-9 format. In that example the date is October 1967 and the Phone was built by assembly line/location 9. Thus if this were an older AE 40/50 era Phone the third field of codes on the base would be something like TJ9.

I knew that it would require pulling out and inspecting quite a few of my phones looking for samples that have had very little parts replacement over the years to actually pin down the two letter date code format and determine the actual years represented by letters of the alphabet.

The First letter of the Two Letter Code appears to be a Bi-Weekly or Fortnight indicator most likely Starting with A at the beginning or first Sunday or Monday of the year. I have examples of phones with actual dates later in the year that have First letters of the Two Letter Codes on components that are “later in the Alphabet”. With First letters scattered through the 26 letter alphabet and a year having 52 weeks, Inam just assuming they chose to use all 26 letters with each one able to represent a two week timeframe.

The Second letter of the Two Letter Code is the year indicator and it appears to have started in 1932 at A and then rolled over to A again in 1958. So far my research into this has concentrated on the AE 80/90 era phones so let’s say from 1958 (Letter A forward) and I will soon be looking for enough proof in my phones and records of phones belonging to other people to confirm the 1932 through 1957 iteration of Year A through Z. I see no indication that they dropped any letters such as I or O or Q, that is letters easily confused with each other or with numbers.

So....we are close to being able to pin down the year of manufacture of any AE Phone that has matching Two Letter Codes stamped on it somewhere. A bit more research and I will post a conversion chart. Knowing this information is going to help us pin down dates for changes in the phones such as cloth to plastic wire insulation, ringer types, etc.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: HarrySmith on January 06, 2018, 03:23:29 PM
WOW! That is a lot of work & a lot of information. Thanks for posting this, it will be quite helpful in finally nailing down AE dates!
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2018, 04:22:19 PM
Very good, that is a lot of useful coding information.

Things had been so quiet on the AE 40 coding, I was starting to wonder if anything new would turn up.

I'm very happy to see it.

Rototech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 06, 2018, 04:44:55 PM
Yeah I just got away from it for awhile but will get back to updating the AE Code Highlites topic soon as well.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17454.0

Just want to get enough confirmations that the 1932-1957 timeframe works for years A-Z as well. Will get some sample pictures of codes posted too.  I’m quite excited about this as deciphering this stuff has been on my “AE To Do List” for...well....Decades!

Terry

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: RotoTech99 on January 06, 2018, 04:58:11 PM
Understandable... I've been hunting for parts for a Decotel. Series G Chestphone keeping me busy.

Mine was originally a rotary mixed component walnut with black vinyl inserts that employs a L shaped bracket and basepan that mounted the internal component plate to the and had larger feet than the other sets produced later.

I have the base, but I don't have the outer chest/lid, or the two other things I mentioned;
I'd like to rebuild it if I can get those parts.

That's been keeping me busy, but I'm checking the other topics regularly that I've participated in as well as the others.

Thank you for the updates, and belated Happy New Year's.

Rototech99
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 06, 2018, 05:15:20 PM
I’ve got the complete (I think) guts to a chestphone of some sort without the case. Telco guys frequently removed the case to make a jewelry box out of it and then tossed or recovered (back to the Telco) the rest of it.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 06, 2018, 05:22:37 PM
Here’s a quick example of “Two Letter Codes” along with an actual date stamped on the backplate. In this instance it is an early AE 183 Spacesaver dated 10-60 on the back. It is early enough to be soft plastic, has a solid Bakelite handset and unusual to find on a 183...a Black fingerwheel.

Transmitter and Receiver capsules are both dated “CC” which by my reckoning “CC” is likely February 1960. Also, the Network is stamped “CC”. That is quite a gap from C = February until 10 = October. I see that a fair bit on AE phones indicating that maybe large batches of components are made and dated, in this case likely the entire handset was assembled then parts or sub assemblies might sit for some time before being assembled into a phone to fill an order. Since the date on the backplate isn’t really a specific electrical component, maybe these backplate dates were only stamped on as a complete Phone was packaged to fill an order. Sort of like a warranty date possibly. All just guesses on my part.

Terry

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 06, 2018, 05:56:44 PM
An AE 50 coded XL so likely November/December 1943. It has cloth wiring inside which is consistent with phones made before the end of the war. Also it has the earlier larger low impedance SL ringer usually found in the earlier AE40’s and 50’s.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 06, 2018, 06:41:10 PM
My Garnet Red AE 80 is pretty much the same vintage as Christians latest Find of the Month winner.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=19460.0

Mine is made for AE by Leigh Electric and is clearly dated 10-59-21. October 1959 and maybe 21 is the code for Leich Electric....don’t know.

Both handset capsules are dated CB so maybe February 1959.

Looking at Christians his base stamp still shows Chicago 7 rather than Northlake making me think it could be very slightlynolder than mine. His codes are BP7 which doesn’t work if it is Month/Year. More like his Is Year/Month...B=1959 and P maybe August 1959. Thenorder of he two letters is a dilemma, I have found more than one example thatbjust don’t work for Month/Year but look quite feasible the other way around. Knowing how particular AE was about this sort of stuff this isn’t surprising. I think that Unbeldi and I speculated that potentially different assemblynlines (or maybe one at least) was setting their dates different from the rest.

Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on January 14, 2018, 09:13:13 PM
Was just looking at Stubs wiring diagram post for AE35.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18385.0

Ken posted this picture of the back with code 9CS. A perfect example of the mixed up format sometimes seen for these codes “two letter codes”. The plant/assembly line digit is virtually always the last entry not the first. Most often the two letters seem to be the Bi-weekly Letter then the Year letter. I’m convinced that the 26 Letter year chart started with A in 1932 and then rolled over to A again in 1958.

Since AE35’s were made from about 1935 to 1940 and since this Code is obviously flipped around, I would say that on Kens Phone the C is 1934 and the S is 19th biweekly period so likely made in September 1934. This would seem quite likely when they would be ramping up production to allow them to start shipping this brand new modern wall phone companion to the very recently released AE 34 Desk Phone.

If they always put the number first when doing the codes as YEAR - MONTH rather than MONTH - YEAR it would be easy to “decode”. But I have seen several examples where the number IS in the third position but the letters can’t possibly be MONTH - YEAR, they need to be flipped for the date to make sense.

Kens example also clearly indicates that these codes were added at a different time than the model number codes. So phones could be assembled or at least be partially assembled ahead of time leading to some internal components being dated a bit earlier than the back plate. Then the backplates stamped at the time of final assembly, packaging and shipping. This could then be somewhat of a warranty indicator as well then.

I knew this wasn’t going to be easy but am still very encouraged by the results. Who would have thought that AE dated things!

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on February 12, 2018, 01:35:54 PM
More on the Two Letter date codes.

Here is an 80E made or prepared for shipping to fill an order in December 1978. By my calculation 1978 is year “U”. This phone is 100% consistent with OU coding, O being the 15th “two week period” of the year. Thus the parts were assembled approximately the second half of July. The codes/dates in the bases frequently are several months further ahead in time indicating that the phone base was either date stamped as selected from stock to fill orders OR they may have been date stamped when assembled on the bases with dates tgat were several months into the future as a warranty indication allowing time for the phones to find their way into service. I recall NT PABX Parts being warranty date stamped about 15 months into the future for their 1 year warranty.

They have actually completely maintained consistency here...Bi-Weekly Period then Year on each code including the base date stamp of December then the year 78. And the digits following the date codes indicate a plant/shift/flowline likely forcquality control though I haven’t begun trying to decipher that yet.

Terry
Title: Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
Post by: AE_Collector on February 12, 2018, 07:05:47 PM
Here’s another example, a Touch Call AE80 from January 1974. Not an 80E, they weren’t released until about 1975, this is a relatively hard to find Touch Call 80. All codes are AQ which would be The first part of January 1974.

The Touch Pad has EP70 stamped on it which would be about March of 1973 so it was either replaced at some point OR being an early touchpad for an 80 maybe they had a lot in stock so it was around for quite awhile. The back of the ferrite core on the Touch Pad has 7310 which is likely October 1973 stamped there by a different manufacturer rather than AE.

Terry