Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Switching => Key Systems (Electronic, 1A2 etc) => Electro-Mehanical Key Systems (1A1, 1A2 etc) => Topic started by: digoxy118 on August 29, 2017, 11:25:52 AM

Title: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 29, 2017, 11:25:52 AM

 I have decided to build a 1a2 system to play with and after reading endless amounts of information on the web about these systems I decided on a WE system, which one is the question really. I like the 4 Line 551, but not sure what limitations this would have with the actual phones and number of phones I can use.

 Ordered and just had delivered a 551C from eBay, I have picked up a few phones and am still looking at some options to learn what I can about these old systems. I could see having up to 10 phones to play with here so not sure if the 551 is going to allow me to get where I want to be. Should I get a 6-10 line KSU? I think the 551 would be a great start what are your thoughts?

 The 551C KSU I purchased was listed on eBay and pictured with a cover, however, the cover didn't come with the KSU, I am in process of trying to negotiate this to obtain a cover, if not, its going back to the seller unless he can make it worth keeping. It was advertised as a "CAB B", I am not sure if this means it was secondary behind a primary KSU/PBX and if the wiring would be different. This KSU looks like it could be a lot of fun, it has two SAN/BAR 4k KTU's and these direct line or I guess they are hotline KTU's 415A and 415B. Not sure how this all works, but, I hope I can keep this one to play with.

 With the 551C KSU, can you use both multiline Rotary and Touch Tone phones?
 I have ordered a 66block with a 25 pair amphenol connector prewired, is this a bear to connect to this 551?
 Ordered a 66block punch down tool, I havent owned one of these in 30 years!
 
 I have a list of phones here, please let me know if indeed these should work, if you know ok!
 - WE 565HKM
 - WE(?) 564HD(sticker). Under this sticker label is A/B 565H* I-60.
 - ITT 2564 13 BA 40 M 3 83 (I have a couple more of these phones that look like this one coming).

 All of these phones have the multi line 6 buttons with the hold button. They really look like a lot of fun! I really want to hear them ring.

 
 

 

Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: rdelius on August 29, 2017, 02:24:41 PM
The telephones ringing comes from the common audible output of the ksu.I do not know if the 551 cabinet power supply has a ringing generator or a low voltage buzzer  out
have lots of 25 pr cable with amp connectors that plug into the keysets.I and 66 blocks.  have some parts sets ,mostly ITT and tone. Your ksu will work with both. It only matters if you have a dial or tone intercom module or a 207 rotary intercom.you have neither.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Victor Laszlo on August 29, 2017, 07:57:45 PM
Here are the answers:

The 551 C KSU can handle 4 CO lines, or any combination of 4 CO, PBX, manual intercom, or tie lines, with some slight re-wiring of the KSU.  It can handle at least the number of rotary or DTMF phones you wish to install. The SanBar 4000F KTU's are some of the best ones that you can use. The 415's are tie-line cards.

"Cab B" was probably written on the cover when it was in service, to distinguish it from cabinet A, in an installation that had more than one KSU. That info is meaningless to you as the new owner, and cabinet is the wrong word for what you have.

For the feature called "common audible" (CA) the KSU requires the addition of a 118A frequency generator (best choice, because it fits inside the KSU, but difficult to find) or the generator (90V - 20 or 30 Hz) output from any typical key system power supply, such as a WE 20B2 or an Elgin equivalent, such as the EAK-4 model. In the absence of the local generator supply, you will not be able to have each phone ring on more than one CO line. You will be able to get one CO line to ring per telephone ringer.

A 66M block e/w (equipped with) an amphenol will not be of much use, unless you only want to connect one telephone. An M block has only 4 rows of pins, but a 66B25 version has 6 rows.

The more professional and logical installation scheme would be to extend the inputs (4 pairs) on a 4-pair wire, and the outputs (up to 25 pairs) using one 25-pair cable, terminating it on the first row of pins on a 66B25 block.  The 25-pair cables to the phones (5 maximum using the 66B25) would be terminated on the other 5 pins of the 66B25.  A larger installation will require additional 66B25 blocks, or a different cross-connection scheme.

There is no dial-selective intercom capability built into the KSU. You can lose one CO line and install a manual intercom, using a 401-type KTU, and create a manual button&buzzer system for signalling.

The 415-type KTU's have value to collectors and operators, and you might be able to defray your original costs by de-acquisitioning them. They were installed when the KSU was in service to create a hot-line type of connection between this KSU and a distant one, or a distant SLT. (single line telephone station).

You should search for, and print out, BSP 518-215-407 which will be your guide on getting your system installed.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Babybearjs on August 29, 2017, 10:03:36 PM
well.... at least I'm not the only one who like key equipment... I have a WE 551C in storage for replacement of my 1A1 system if that ever dies.... I also have a San-bar 6610 that handles all 5 lines PLUS an intercom.... I've been searching for a 407C KTU but haven't found one yet....  so my intercom on that unit is a 401A manual unit.... this KTS is also in storage in the event I ever need it.... having a 4 line system with a whole house intercom is really nice. good luck with your project, you'll really like have the options available to you once its up and running.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 29, 2017, 11:10:55 PM

 Hey babybearjs, I have embarked on this project and plan to see it through! I am only just now starting to get an idea of how this stuff works and its already very exciting. You should pull that unit out and maybe we could get these going at the same time, would make for some good conversation.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: poplar1 on August 29, 2017, 11:17:17 PM
For the feature called "common audible" (CA) the KSU requires the addition of a 118A frequency generator (best choice, because it fits inside the KSU, but difficult to find) or the generator (90V - 20 or 30 Hz) output from any typical key system power supply, such as a WE 20B2 or an Elgin equivalent, such as the EAK-4 model. In the absence of the local generator supply, you will not be able to have each phone ring on more than one CO line. You will be able to get one CO line to ring per telephone ringer.



I agree that without the optional 118A frequency generator, or another similar source, the ringers in the sets can be used only as "line ringers," that is, the ringer in any set can be connected to only one line.

However, "common audible" signaling is possible with a 551C KSU as pictured, by using buzzers instead of ringers. An incoming call on any of 4 lines requires a single 10 VAC buzzer per telephone.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 30, 2017, 12:14:30 AM
 Victor, thanks for the awesome reply and taking the time to write that out. I cant tell you how much I appreciate your help. I do have so many questions just getting started with this and not knowing much at all about this stuff that some of the questions i come up with surely are trivial. If at any point, please feel absolutely free to correct me on terminology or anything you feel needs attention, you cannot hurt my feelings, I am here to learn and I appreciate you taking the time.
 
 So, this supports both Dial tone and rotary, that is good to know. I am planning to use a BlueTooth cell gateway to feed into CO-1. If I am reading the 551C Practice correctly, this would go directly into the 66block 43 and 44. expanding on this a bit, what you have written has clarified something I didnt realize, showing just how much I dont know, I didnt realize I could use more than 4 phones on the KSU, but, this makes sense, I should be able to hook up any number of phones as long as the PS can handle the lamps and signalling to each of the phones, is that right?

 If I wanted to, can I use the KTU415A and KTU415B to work as a direct link to say line 3 and line 4? so, if I pick up Line3 from one phone it would ring line4? This is somewhat confusing to me how this would work. If its just the same to remove them, I can do that and look for a couple more SB4k's.

 Do each of the KTU's align with each of the CO Lines? In other words, there are 4 slots for KTU's, should I have the 400D in the correct slot that corresponds with CO-Line 1? The KTU Slots are numbered J1-J4, do these correspond to each of the C0 inputs/outputs. (J1, C01, block 43-44)?

 CAB-B concerns me only if by the possible chance something has been rewired in this KSU to make something happen with CAB-A, maybe I am being paranoid but looking on the back side of the KSU, I see different types of wires which makes me think there may be some special something happening here. I will get a picture of this and get your thoughts.

 As for a 118A frequency generator, it appears the KSU has one installed. After reading your message, I actually picked up another one I had seen on eBay, so, I have another one coming as a spare in case this one for some reason does not work. So, with that, I should have the ring generator sorted out. I am not sure if I understand how this works through ringing phones, if C01 triggers, it does not ring all phones as would seem right, not enough power I guess. So what determines which phone will ring?

 I have been on study time with this new bible, the 551C KSU Practice. Much of the practice terminology and many of the diagrams are Greek to me. I can somewhat understand what its saying to do, but the why's keep creeping up on me.

  Can you explain how these amphenol connectors are supposed to connect to KSU? Should I have a single amphenol that comes out of this box and split from there to feed say 4-5 phones? How traditionally is this done? Should I run the 25 pair from the internal block to another external block that contains more rows, like you have mentioned a 6 row 66B25, then connect like 4 amphenol's to this and then expand over to another 66B25 to have another 5? A general diagram of how this would hook up would be so helpful I think.

 How would the dial selective work? if using a 401-type KTU, can you then "dial" an internal line to another internal phone? I may need to come back to this question later, I am not sure if I fully understand what dial selective entails. If say I dont have any CO lines (incoming phone lines from the telephone company), could I if I used a "401 type KTU" use the phones completely independent and dial from one to the other?

 Thanks for the assistance, I am sure one I get down the general thought process of how this goes together I will be in much better shape.
 

 

 



 

 
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 30, 2017, 12:27:24 AM

 Hello Poplar, thanks for joining in. I know I do need some more real deep understanding of how this ringing works, I dont think I would be using this outside of a single room, but, would like to know what it is capable of and explore different methods of making it all work nicely together.

 I know I have read a lot about the buzzers and for the most part, I think many people remember these from working with these phones and recall the buzzer sound and want to hear that great buzz again, you know, like catching a buzz or something!

 The simple truth is, I am somewhat in the same boat here. When I was very young, possibly 3-4 years old, my grandfather had a multiline phone in his house, I think it was a 4 line, very possibly a 1a system, not real sure however, the lights on this phone mesmerized me and to this day I believe that this living room phone with these illuminating flashing beacons are the main reason I went down the technical side of things, always curious and taking stuff a part from a very early age. I had a lashing over and over for removing my dads turntable to play with the gears.

 :)
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 30, 2017, 12:32:16 AM

 Oh, just to make sure I am not dropping the ball, this is the 118A frequency generator correct?

Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: poplar1 on August 30, 2017, 09:59:19 AM
Oh, just to make sure I am not dropping the ball, this is the 118A frequency generator correct?



No, that is the interrupter. It causes the lamps to flash (60 intervals per minute) for incoming call or wink (120 IPM) for hold. Also interrupts the common audible (buzzer or ringer) cadence of 1 second on, 3 seconds off.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 30, 2017, 10:10:56 AM
 Hey Poplar, thanks for the clarification on the 118a, just found one one on eBay. Would be nice to find the mounting bracket as well.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Victor Laszlo on August 30, 2017, 07:28:00 PM
Starting off in the hobby trying to understand the key system arena will be a bit difficult, because you do not yet have the more basic understanding of general telephony. But, your questions and understanding, so far, indicates that you are starting to get it quite nicely. 

Here are some basic concepts for you to learn: Please be aware that there are people on this forum who delight in finding errors in my messages, and pointing out the exceptions to many things I write. I have promised the moderators not to rise to the bait. I can assure you that with 55 years of playing and working with phones, I know enough not to mislead you. Please understand that the Bell System, (aka The Phone Company, aka "TPC") in its infinite wisdom, backed up with infinite bank accounts, designed the system for the best possible results. 

There are economic, social, ergonomic and electrical reasons for everything they did.

Central offices send ringing current (aka "generator") at a cadence of 2 seconds ON, 4 seconds OFF.   This is true of most landline CO's in North America.  A typical household during the second half of the 20th century had one or two telephones. Subscribers were encouraged to answer no later than ten rings. (One minute) Once answering machines and then voice mail were invented, the expectation was to have a call answered after 4 rings.  TPC reasoned that an unanswered call was a call that did not produce revenue.  Business calls generate more revenue.  Therefore, key system and PBX interrupters (in business systems) were designed to provide ringing cadences such as 1 second ON, 3 seconds OFF. This, along with discordant gongs on ringers, rather than harmonious ones, producing what TPC called "urgency" was a way to ensure that calls, especially business calls, were answered more quickly. For people used to answering on the 4th ring at home, (24 seconds) a call in their office would be answered on the 4th ring of the key system, or 16 seconds. It all had to do with the efficiency of the called party and the patience of the calling party.

So, we come to the different ringing options in a 1A2 system. Another member pointed out that buzzers can be used in lieu of ringers. True enough, but in 55 years of telephone work, I saw three systems out of probably 10,000 that used buzzers rather than ringers for line service (as opposed to intercom service.)

These statements refer specifically to 1A2 telephones and systems:

1.  You can directly wire each telephone ringer to ring on one CO line. 4 lines, 4 telephones, 4 ringers. Each telephone will ring on a particular line, and no other.  This scheme is called "line ringers"

2.  You can add external ringers, which mount on the wall near a desk, and those can be wired to ring on one CO line each.

In the previous two examples, the ringers are activated by ringing current, aka generator, from the CO.  There are certain ways of wiring them at the KSU, or inside the telephone to provide this service.  The ringers will follow the CO ringing cadence, 2 ON 4 OFF.

3.  You can wire the KSU to provide a local generator supply, as discussed, from the 118A freq gen, or another source. The interrupter in the KSU will send 1 ON 3 OFF to any ringer connected to the pins in the KSU that are appropriate.  The brackets for the 118A are made of a rare isotope of UNobtainium.  A wire tie will hold them into the KSU just as well as a bracket.

In this scheme, you can have the ringers respond to generator ( through the interrupter) for multiple lines. One, 2, 3, 4 or none.

4.  Selective ringing using a diode matrix.

In this scheme, the ringers can be wired in permutations of the 4 lines, with any combination ringing on any ringer.






Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Victor Laszlo on August 30, 2017, 07:33:17 PM
Quote
I should be able to hook up any number of phones as long as the PS can handle the lamps and signalling to each of the phones, is that right?

Correct. The limit is the lamp current draw. Large systems use lamp extenders, either relay-based or solid state, to allow many more phones.

Quote
If I wanted to, can I use the KTU415A and KTU415B to work as a direct link to say line 3 and line 4? so, if I pick up Line3 from one phone it would ring line4? This is somewhat confusing to me how this would work. If its just the same to remove them, I can do that and look for a couple more SB4k's.

That's almost the way they work, but they are intended to interconnect remote systems. Let's not use those or talk about them yet. Best to remove them and put them in a box. Patience, patience...

Quote
Do each of the KTU's align with each of the CO Lines? In other words, there are 4 slots for KTU's, should I have the 400D in the correct slot that corresponds with CO-Line 1? The KTU Slots are numbered J1-J4, do these correspond to each of the C0 inputs/outputs. (J1, C01, block 43-44)?

Correct

Quote
I see different types of wires which makes me think there may be some special something happening here. I will get a picture of this and get your thoughts.

Hmmm. Those wires concern me.  You may have bought a field-modified unit.  There are simple reasons to modify the back-wiring, and there are silly reasons. Time will tell. I will help you walk through the possibilities and retro-fits.

Quote
As for a 118A frequency generator, it appears the KSU has one installed. After reading your message, I actually picked up another one I had seen on eBay, so, I have another one coming as a spare in case this one for some reason does not work. So, with that, I should have the ring generator sorted out. I am not sure if I understand how this works through ringing phones, if C01 triggers, it does not ring all phones as would seem right, not enough power I guess. So what determines which phone will ring?

We already touched slightly on this topic. We'll get back to it later.

Quote
I have been on study time with this new bible, the 551C KSU Practice. Much of the practice terminology and many of the diagrams are Greek to me. I can somewhat understand what its saying to do, but the why's keep creeping up on me.

It's a new language. Your questions are astute and well thought out.  All will be revealed to the diligent student. Trust me.

 
Quote
Can you explain how these amphenol connectors are supposed to connect to KSU? Should I have a single amphenol that comes out of this box and split from there to feed say 4-5 phones? How traditionally is this done? Should I run the 25 pair from the internal block to another external block that contains more rows, like you have mentioned a 6 row 66B25, then connect like 4 amphenol's to this and then expand over to another 66B25 to have another 5? A general diagram of how this would hook up would be so helpful I think.

Installing a 1A2 system can be an art form. There are rules about specific practices, but the overall installation can take many forms.  Any of the suggestions you cite are acceptable.  It depends upon the ultimate goal...just a few phones to demonstrate your cool toys, or a larger and more complex system. Even in the field, an installer was given latitude in his design, depending upon the possibility of expansion.



Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Victor Laszlo on August 30, 2017, 08:17:43 PM
Quote
How would the dial selective work? if using a 401-type KTU, can you then "dial" an internal line to another internal phone? I may need to come back to this question later, I am not sure if I fully understand what dial selective entails. If say I don't have any CO lines (incoming phone lines from the telephone company), could I if I used a "401 type KTU" use the phones completely independent and dial from one to the other?

I have started a new post to discuss the various intercom options.

1.  Manual signalling.   Boss pushes a button on his phone, and a buzzer activates on the secretary's desk (or vice versa) or at other locations, if there are more than one button. Secretary/employee performs a pre-arranged task. No voice connection, therefore no need for a KTU plugged in.

2.  Manual intercom.  Boss or anyone presses a key to access a voice link, the key lights up on all phones e/w (equipped with) that link, then presses a momentary button, and a buzzer or ringer activates at the secretary's/others' desks.  Guy at the other end picks up the same link, and converses. Requires a battery feed, which can be any one of several devices. In your case, a 401A or B KTU.

3.  Dial selective intercom. (DICM...pronounced exactly as you might suspect.)  Pulse or DTMF.  As the name implies, anyone with a DICM key presses the dedicated key for DICM, and dials a single- or multiple-digit code. A buzzer activates at the selected station. The called person answers and a conversation ensues.  Others may listen in and talk.  Equipment will not plug into or fit inside the 551 KSU. The ICM's can be plug-in cards that go into larger KSU's or they can be stand-alone little boxes. Google "Teltone" or "Melco" Intercom.

4. Enhanced DICM.  Features can be added to the above scheme to provide dial tone, busy tone, machine ringing, privacy, call-waiting, camp-on, etc etc etc.  Western Electric and the competitors made them.

Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Weco355aman on August 30, 2017, 08:46:24 PM
Hi digoxy118
I 100% agree with Victor, 1A2 is a simple concept but you do need to have some basic understanding. I got my 1st 1A2 at 14 1/2, at that time there was no public info, late 1970's. I had to figure it out on may own, today the internet has a lot of great info and also some bad info. I recommend first to connecting 1 line and one phone to get a understanding, if you try to wire up the entire system at the 1st time you may frustrate yourself. Locate the 25 Pair color code (Google) and print it out, the 1st line only needs 6 (1st 3 pairs) wires connected between the phone and the 551 (KSU)  the telephone line is only 2 wires, The rotary and ITT 2564 will not be concerned about the polarity of the phone line going to the line card (400)type KTU. The Western Electric phones will not dial out if the line polarity is reversed. I would hold off on the intercom until you have a better understanding of the system, The ITT 1a2 key manuals are simpler than the BSP's for basic understanding. The BSP was trained tech's, the beginners had simple layout and learned from lab instructors and senior installers, As Victor said there was a reason for everything. No one will be critical of you learning. Enjoy you self. P.S. I may have the 118 mounting bracket.   Phil         
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Weco355aman on August 30, 2017, 08:54:40 PM
The BSP that was posted also needs to be printed out so you know where to connect the Tel line and the phone. The 551 C is the best to lean on, the others are inside of box that is tight to work in,
Have fun and keep asking questions,
Here is a link to the 1A2 systems that I sell on ebay
 link.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-1A2-Key-System-with-3-2565-Phones-551-Ksu-/162616551572?hash=item25dcb3a894:g:6joAAOSwuMFUaY38

I do not know how to cross post photos from ebay. Sorry
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 30, 2017, 08:55:44 PM
Starting off in the hobby trying to understand the key system arena will be a bit difficult, because you do not yet have the more basic understanding of general telephony. But, your questions and understanding, so far, indicates that you are starting to get it quite nicely. 

Rest of quote omitted, read up to see Victor's message.

 I am fine with ringers of course, I never realized that there were different ring duration's and pauses between rings, that is very interesting, thanks for sharing this. I have been reading many places over the web and find that many people seem to want to configure using buzzers and so this makes me think that they were well used. I, once I gain a good understanding of how this operates, I can look at later possibly getting something like this configured.


These statements refer specifically to 1A2 telephones and systems:

Omitted please read up to see Victors quote.

 - I have absolutely put together a 118a Ring Generator and the 551C It has the interrupter so I think I am good to go on "RING" output. I am planning to add one CO, this I would think would need to ring at least one phone.

 Where I am now:
 - Western Electric 551C, 28D2 PS, KS-19175 L1 Interrupter
 - 118a Ring Generator on the way, its shipped. (Will use zip ties to strap down). I will actually have 2 more of these, didnt realize I picked up two, anyone need one of these NOS?
 - phones right now and will have two more in a couple of days. 3-2564's(waiting on 2), 1-564HD(565H* double marked) and 1-565HKM
 - I have 4 amphenol cables coming and some extra 25 pair cable also on the way.
 - Pre wired 66block with a single female amphenol, as understand I may not be able to use this.
 - 66 Block punch down tool, got this today!

  Based on another post here:
 - I will be removing the 415's, I need a couple more SAN/BAR 4000F KTU's, know anyone?
 - Is it possible to have you analyze the wire connections in the back of this if I were to take some close up pictures? These extra wires do not appear to be factory but could be. They are also soldered and not wire wrapped the way so many of the other connections are, they are different types of wire. Tracing them, they run from each of the KTU's-interrupter-PS-block. On the block, I see where many things have been jumped also. Hey, this could all be standard stuff, however, its better to have an expert look it over.
 
 Over all, I do want to understand fully what I am doing and how this awesome 1a2 technology is supposed to work. It would be great to put this together with era wire based on WE Standards, or even Bell. The correct color codes I plan as much as possible to follow so if for example one of you guru's see it, you would know exactly what your looking at. With that, I would be learning the same as many of the techs worked on these in the field. I would get a lot of satisfaction in putting it together the way it is supposed to be put together.




 
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 30, 2017, 09:20:25 PM
I have started a new post to discuss the various intercom options.


 I completely appreciate that, I am somewhat verbose as well and some of these messages are gaining some ground quick. I think for now, the easiest way to get these working with the equipment I have is in my opinion the best solution for now. Once I get my head around what I have, I can then start looking into "upgrading". I do like the enhanced DICM though, this sounds involved. For nostalgic purposes though putting this together in the same method as many offices ran them is what I would like to tackle first.

 Thank you for putting this together, very informative, as is most all of your posts. Learning a lot fast.

Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 30, 2017, 10:02:10 PM
Hi digoxy118
I 100% agree with Victor, 1A2 is a simple concept but you do need to have some basic understanding. I got my 1st 1A2 at 14 1/2, at that time there was no public info, late 1970's. I had to figure it out on may own, today the internet has a lot of great info and also some bad info. I recommend first to connecting 1 line and one phone to get a understanding, if you try to wire up the entire system at the 1st time you may frustrate yourself. Locate the 25 Pair color code (Google) and print it out, the 1st line only needs 6 (1st 3 pairs) wires connected between the phone and the 551 (KSU)  the telephone line is only 2 wires, The rotary and ITT 2564 will not be concerned about the polarity of the phone line going to the line card (400)type KTU. The Western Electric phones will not dial out if the line polarity is reversed. I would hold off on the intercom until you have a better understanding of the system, The ITT 1a2 key manuals are simpler than the BSP's for basic understanding. The BSP was trained tech's, the beginners had simple layout and learned from lab instructors and senior installers, As Victor said there was a reason for everything. No one will be critical of you learning. Enjoy you self. P.S. I may have the 118 mounting bracket.   Phil       

 Hello Phil, (et/all)

 Thanks for your feedback, greatly appreciated and you have some excellent points here. I think I am going to agree with you on starting with one line, this would be something that I can focus on. First, let me ask, the "BSP" is this the reference to the "Practice" I have been tying to decode? If so, where might I find anything at that is ITT 1a2 Manuals, are these online also? I will google for this in a moment but if you have a website with a downloadable links would be great.

 There should be a few 25 pair amphenol 1a2 cables coming.
 - Should I connect this directly to the block in the KTU or connect it to an external block?
 - How would this be done in the field?
 - Is there any documents you can recommend that will show me the connections for line1 to the KSU block?
 - I will look for and obtain the 25 pair color code, I would want this to be true to WE! I may have to clarify what I find.
 - If I am going to work with line1, does it require a 400KTU in J1 (first KTU slot)?

 If you have one of these brackets, that would be absolutely amazing. I have looked everywhere for one of these, as so many have said they are made from Unobtainium. I am also looking for a deep sea 551C Cover, I think these may all be submerged in the North Atlantic. Rumor has it, one of these was crushed between the Titanic and and a chunk of ice.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 30, 2017, 10:15:29 PM
The BSP that was posted also needs to be printed.....

 I have printed out and have been reading through "Bell System Practice (BSP!) AT&TCo Standard Section 518-215-407, Issue 2, June 1981". This is the most recent one I could find, I found one also from the 70's that is nice to compare and understand the differences between the 551A/B and C. All good Stuff.

 If there is yet another "bible" I should have at my fingertips, please let me know what they are and I will certainly find them and print them, really enjoy delving into this stuff, way to much fun.

 I did study your ad on eBay, I look at it often, every time I search for 1a2, Western Electric 551C. You dont know how close I came to smashing that buy it now button, I wanted to build one though, as fun as it would have been to drop a working system on the table, I wouldn't understand what I was looking at. That system I think is good for a business slap it in and go. With all that said though, you might have good insight on what I may need to buy, and, may have something stocked. Let me know.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Weco355aman on August 31, 2017, 12:13:14 AM
If you don't  know about Telephone collectors international, they have a library with lots of Phone information. If you think that your interest will grow, then join and you will have many others that share you phone interest.

Look for ITT 601a Ksu.  Also Itt 512a will work as well, Itt had a clear and easy to read layout of how to wire the phones and KSU, Please note they did things much different than bell. But its great info, after you study it then the BSP may be easier to understand.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 31, 2017, 12:16:36 AM
Look for ITT 601a Ksu.  Also Itt 512a will work as well

I will look these up right now, thanks for the quick response.
Mike

Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Weco355aman on August 31, 2017, 12:18:42 AM
Here is a link to a large system, Please be sitting down, This is what a nice size system looked look. Yes this is a present installation as of 8-2017 working 1A2 system, I have about 300 lines of 1A2, But I also have my own Central office to supply dial tone, when finished ill have more that 300 key phones wired to it,
This was built to show off large key systems, and also I like phones.

 

http://www.stepswitch.us/   this goes directly to my unfinished web site.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 31, 2017, 12:41:46 AM
Please be sitting down http://www.stepswitch.us/  this goes directly to my unfinished web site.

Phil, this is your 1a2 hobby system? I remember seeing this page a few weeks ago, started with the picture of I guess you standing in a isle. This system is huge! way more than I would ever put together. How do you find the time to work with that? Watched a couple of video's, commented on one as well, subscribed of course.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Babybearjs on August 31, 2017, 12:58:29 AM
here are the pics you requested... I hope they help..... the first 3 are of my San-Bar 6610 and the rest are the 551-C
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Babybearjs on August 31, 2017, 01:09:04 AM
here are the last few pics:
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 31, 2017, 01:10:46 AM
here are the pics you requested... I hope they help..... the first 3 are of my San-Bar 6610 and the rest are the 551-C

 Hey John,

 It doesn't appear you are using much on the 551C? I see you have a small RJ11 Jack installed onto the Ring Generator Bracket (The bracket I dont have). Is that for the CO or for a set? Good quality pictures to, looks like that KSU is great shape. Do you have much terminating on the KSU Block? If so, you have any close up shots of your connections? Sorry so many questions. Do you have a thread on here somewhere you display and discuss your 551C?

 The SAN/BAR unit looks really good to.

 Thank you for taking the time to post these pictures. I kept looking for a "LIKE" Button on the 551 pics, there isnt one! :)

 Mike
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric 551C.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 31, 2017, 01:30:27 PM

 Updates:

 Weco355aman - Says he might have a 118a Ring Generator bracket, would this not be a god send?
 rdelius - Has some low cost 66 blocks, I am working with him to obtain a few.

 Needed - 2 SAN/BAR 4000F KTU's.
 Needed - 1 Western Electric 551C Plastic Cover.
 Needed - Short length's of 25 pair cable for connecting from KTU to Station Blocks.

 Wanted - Picture sharing of your Western Electric 551.
 Wanted - Recommended acquisitions of equipment to play with that utilizes the 551.

 


 Set (phone) connection to KSU.

 The reason I am working so close in detail here is that I would like this set up as it would be in the field. If one of you guys who worked on this equipment were to see my set up, I would want to know that it is done correctly and know that it what would be expected in the field, please let me know if this sounds right, and, if you have any suggestions, comments, recommendations or anything at all, feel free to chime in, i really want to do this right in the spirit of respect of these older 1a2 systems.

 The common method from what I understand in connecting a 25 pair amphenol connector from a set (a phone) to a KSU is through a 66 Block.

 Here is what I would like to do:
 Step 1
 - A. Connect a female 25 pair amphenol connector to an external 66 block (I will call this a station block).
 - B. Plug a set (a phone) into the female amphenol connector for testing.

 Step 2
 - A. Run connect wires from the KSU 551C Block to the newly wired station 66 block.

 Questions:
 (1) 1-A, What type of 66 Block should I use? I have asked for a few different blocks from a user here on the forum and may be able to acquire 4 row 50, 6 row 50 I think is what they are. Which type would be used in the field connecting this equipment? If phone set amphenol 25 par connectors are connected to these, would it make sense to use the 6 row 66 blocks?

 (2) 1-A, I have dug deep to try and answer this question through practices, images posted on the web, asking in forums and have yet to connect the dots on this question. When connecting the 25 pair to the station block, do I follow the standard color set wht/blu, blu/wht, wht/org, org/wht, wht/grn, grn/wht etc? If I am right, these would connect from pin 1 of the block all the way to pin 50 following the standard code (posted the 50 pair below), this should be the same up to 25 pair right?

 (3) 1-A, Once the station block is installed I should then be able to add 2-3 25 pair amphenol female set connection points using the color code?

 (4) 1-A, I should then be able to daisy chain these station connection blocks by punching down a 25 pair from Block Station block A to Block Station block B, then systematically add more 25 pair amphenol connectors to block B?

 (5) 2-A, This has been on my head for the last 24 hours, its like a nail driven into the frontal lobe. In the BSP ISS 2 Section 518-215-407 Fig3 draws out the pin connection of the line connections pretty clearly "TO KEY TELEPHONE SETS". This shows Lines 1-4 connections on rows 1 through 24. Is this all that needs to be connected to a 25 pair cable that is run externally connected to a station block? How about Audible Signal Connections? Is there anything else I need to pick up and carry out?

 (6) 2-A,  When connecting the 25 pair that is to lead out to the station block, is it traditionally done in the 551C block to connect this 25 pair on the left side or the right side of the block?

 (7) 2-A, Is there on this forum somewhere someone has simplified the standard connections to 1a2 KSU connections? I would think it would be something like this? (see added image, color code stamped on this would be very helpful).

 LINE1
 T - wht/blu
 R - blu/wht
 A - wht/org
 AI - org/wht
 LG - wht/grn
 L - grn/wht

 LINE2
 T - red/blu
 R - blu/red
 A - red/org

 (8) 2-A, Would it be feasible, practical or/and any type of standard to wire a single amphenol connector to the 551 block to carry out to a station block that is equipped with a female pre wired?
---------

  I am without a doubt over the top appreciative of any knowledge shared with my project. I understand this is a lot to be asking from a forum group. My willingness to learn this 1a2 system can only be carried out by the few individuals who would like to teach a young pad-wan like myself. Thank you for any assistance what so ever, even the smallest bits can cast light on so much.

Mike
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: HarrySmith on August 31, 2017, 02:07:10 PM
I have no knowledge of the 1A2 system to share but I wanted to comment. I think it is great to see a new person with such an intense interest. This is what our forum is all about, we have gotten a little bit away from it recently so I, for one, am glad to see it again! I know there are plenty of experienced people here who will be happy to help and I look forward to maybe learning something along with you. I have always believed the only stupid question is the one you don't ask!
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 31, 2017, 02:39:33 PM
I have no knowledge of the 1A2 system to share but I wanted to comment. I think it is great to see a new person with such an intense interest. This is what our forum is all about, we have gotten a little bit away from it recently so I, for one, am glad to see it again! I know there are plenty of experienced people here who will be happy to help and I look forward to maybe learning something along with you. I have always believed the only stupid question is the one you don't ask!

 Hey Harry, thanks for the feedback. I do delve into some of this stuff pretty heavily. There are so many people here that like to converse on these subjects, it really makes it fun. I do indeed have a lot of questions, I get by with a little help from my friends, albeit, new friends.

Mike
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 31, 2017, 03:14:12 PM

 Just had the Mail Lady drop off a few things, its like Christmas around here! All of this is going to be used on the 551C, hopefully.

 Two new to me phones, these really need some going through. Sending one of the dials to Steve Hilsz (found his name on the forum). The expert Dial God.

 Phones
 1 C/D 500 12/56
 1 C/D 500 10/55

 Amp Cables!
 1 - 10 foot Extension Cable M/F
 2 - Male connection cables
 1 - Female connection cable.

 CO Lines.
 I picked up this Blue-tooth connection box that connects a cell phone to a regular phone. It is supposed to provide ring/tip as it should from a CO. I am curious to see if I can make this work with the 551C as a CO Line. From what I understand people have made these work using the SAN/BAR KTU's. I dont think these will work with the 400D KTU's but not sure. In all, I am not sure if it will work at all, weeeel seeeeee.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: rdelius on August 31, 2017, 04:03:14 PM
500 sets will  need to be rewired with a-lead control to work on  1a2 ksus. 564 sets are what you need for all functions to work
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on August 31, 2017, 04:12:20 PM
500 sets will  need to be rewired with a-lead control to work on  1a2 ksus. 564 sets are what you need for all functions to work

 I knew they would require something to modify them, or, special something to get them to work correctly with the KSU. This is all part of the experience. These will be a lot further down the road but, I can at least get them looking nice and use them on my regular phone line hopefully.
 
 Think I am about there on phones rdelius, unless someone comes along with a deal I cant pass up on 1a2. I should have 5 1a2 phones and these two 500's.

 Appreciate your feedback as always, thanks for looking out for me.

 (sent you a PM right?)
 Mike
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Weco355aman on August 31, 2017, 05:27:51 PM
The X-link will work with 400d iss 15, also 400g and h ktu card's
I have a few 400h cards, also ITT k400e will work as well.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Jim S. on August 31, 2017, 05:59:48 PM
I have played with Xlink before. I think it a very practical way to make a rotary phone work.
JMO,
Jim S.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Victor Laszlo on August 31, 2017, 06:27:09 PM
Quote
I knew they would require something to modify them, or, special something to get them to work correctly with the KSU. This is all part of the experience.

Very simply, here is some background info about single line telephones. It might help guide you as you play with Chapter 2 "Key Systems" before you had immersed yourself with Chapter 1 "Basic Phones."

My comments refer to WE or equivalent 500, 2500, and 56x and 256x phones. There are others, that use the same technology, but are just bigger with more wires.

Every SLT has a switch hook (SWHK). That's the electrical switch that operates when you take the handset off-hook, and restores by gravity when you hang up.  It has, among other contacts, two sets of MAKE (normally open) contacts. One set opens and closes the TIP side of the line, and the other set opens and closes the RING side of the line. Tip and Ring are terms that refer to the metal, current-carrying parts on a switchboard plug, and by extension and convention, they refer to the two wires on a CO line. Tip, Ring and Sleeve are the three leads in a switchboard cord. Look at a stereo headphone plug and you will get the idea.

In every key set, the line selection keys MAKE the Tip, the Ring, and the A lead. The individual A lead, when grounded in the tel set, operates the A relay in the associated line card. That card lights the line lamps by sending 10Vac on the Lamp lead for that line, out to the phones, and then back to ground on the (LG) lead.

SLT's used on 1A2 systems need to be converted to "A lead control".  One set of the SWHK contacts are "borrowed" to create the MAKE contact for the A lead. One set is kept in service to open/close the line. One side (Tip, let's say) is continuous through the phone, but Ring is interrupted by the SWHK contacts.  You need to do this conversion (by simply moving a couple of wires) so that the SLT will light the lamps on associated key sets, and not cause other electrical non-compatibility such as false hold, no ring trip, etc.

So, now, in addition to understanding the deal with using a SLT on a key system, you also know why each key on a key set needs 3 pairs, aka 6 wires (actually 5 because we can use one common ground return wire for all the individual A leads) between the KSU and the tel set.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Victor Laszlo on August 31, 2017, 06:42:31 PM
Teaching 1A2 by typing messages causes a syndrome known as "Oh..wait...there's one more thing I need to explain..."

As you proceed, ask whatever you need to know. It may be our fault that it wasn't included in the first messages, but we'll catch up and eventually (after a few years) you'll know as much as we do.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Babybearjs on September 01, 2017, 12:19:08 AM
the jack shown on my 551C is for the incoming CO lines. its a RJ-45 jack and allows for all 4 lines to be connected. I can send you pics of my system I have in my house if you like, whats your regular email address? this way you get the pics, unless you've already seen the pictures on the forum...
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on September 01, 2017, 08:44:02 AM
the jack shown on my 551C is for the incoming CO lines. its a RJ-45 jack and allows for all 4 lines to be connected. I can send you pics of my system I have in my house if you like, whats your regular email address? this way you get the pics, unless you've already seen the pictures on the forum...

 Can you post them here in this forum if its a 551 KSU? Or if you prefer email, I think you can get to that through my profile. I would rather not post my email here in public.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on September 01, 2017, 08:57:59 AM
Very simply, here is some background info about single line telephones. It might help guide you as you play with Chapter 2 "Key Systems" before you had immersed yourself with Chapter 1 "Basic Phones."

 Thanks for this victor, good info.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on September 01, 2017, 09:06:06 AM
The X-link will work with 400d iss 15, also 400g and h ktu card's
I have a few 400h cards, also ITT k400e will work as well.

 Thats good to know. I have read that the 400d was to temperamental for the X-Link.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on September 08, 2017, 09:25:13 AM
Questions:
- What more per line do I need to punch down on the 551 Block? I have punched down lines 1-4 but only T, R, A, AI, LG, L. It just seems there should be more to do here for buzzers or ringers or whatever. If so, an understanding of colors and what to punch down here would be for some great discussion.

- On a Facebook post, one mentioned that it appeared the 551 block was set for buzzers after reviewing some of my pictures. I have no idea how to determine this and understand what to modify to set this to ringers. I have included pictures if one could take a look at this.

- I have the 118a Ring Generator, I would like to attach this to the RG and RB block connections however, there does not seem to be a polarity marked on the ring generator, only two screws to screw on leads, is there a polarity on this ring generator? if so, what connector goes to each the RG/RB?

Updates 9/8/17 :
 - Added a single female emphenol cable and connector to right side of KSU Block, ran out bottom of KSU Box.
 - Connected amphenol splitter/adapter to female end of emphenol.
 - KSU Powers on, everything as far as voltage looks good.
 - Connected two key sets (phones)
 - Verified stepping through each line, lamps work fine on both sets.
 - Made outgoing call through Key Set - KSU using X-Link, works great, sounds great.
 - Tested many of the key-sets I have, they all seem to work the same.
 - I have scrapped the idea of using an external block.

Needed:
 2 SAN/BAR 4000F KTU's.
 1 Western Electric 551C Plastic Cover.
 1 118a Ring Generator Bracket.
 3 Female ended amphenol cables, to punch down 551 Block.
 
Wanted:
 Picture sharing of your Western Electric 551.
 Recommended acquisitions of equipment to play with that utilizes the 551.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Victor Laszlo on September 08, 2017, 11:00:55 AM
The output of the 118A is alternating current. It is is therefore not polarity sensitive. As long as one side is connected to the B battery ground (as shown by the black wire in your photo) it will work OK.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: poplar1 on September 08, 2017, 01:12:24 PM
Be sure to remove the red and blue wires that are going  from G+- and S+- to RG and RB before connecting the 118A
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on September 13, 2017, 08:38:00 AM
Sounds good guys, I will give that a try as soon as I get a few minutes to get it hooked up. I am actually stalling a bit to see if I get lucky with a bracket for the 118a. This would be great.

I am using the 551 now with a 565HKM Rotary, I have it on and use it to pick up calls from my cell phone. Luckily my cell phone rings and I know I am getting a call, but it all seems to work.

Will get some more work done on it in a few days and will report back. I do have a few more questions posted above if anyone has some answers.

Thanks for the help once again guys.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Victor Laszlo on September 13, 2017, 10:20:45 AM
Be cautious when installing a bridging adapter, if the associated telephones are key sets with 25-pair mounting cords. If you refer to the appropriate BSP's, you will read the explanation. Basically, you need to insulate and store the Violet leads inside the sets that are used for on-hook dialing and talking (speakerphone service.)  If you don't you will get unwanted interaction between the sets.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on September 13, 2017, 11:00:01 AM
Be cautious when installing a bridging adapter

 Yes, I did run into this. It took me a minute to figure out that one of the phones was causing this, after isolating the problem down to one phone, I removed that phone from the mess of connections and all worked fine. I wasn't sure what was causing this and still not sure. The isolated phone however does work without any problem by itself.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: poplar1 on September 13, 2017, 11:31:09 AM
For common audible ringers:

(1) Remove the red and blue straps from G+-/S+- to RG/RB

(2) Connect the 118A Freq. Gen. to RG and RB

(3) Punch down the yellow-slate/slate-yellow of the 25-pair hang-off cable to the upper left B1/R1 on the block inside the 551C.
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: digoxy118 on September 13, 2017, 06:36:18 PM
For common audible ringers:

 Poplar1 - The Angels in heaven are looking down upon you. After getting this punched down the way you explained, I have given wings to many angels this afternoon, bells ringing like its Christmas! Thank you Poplar1, you have me up and running with ringers!

Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Doug Rose on September 13, 2017, 08:10:57 PM
David....do you ever miss?  Outstanding......Doug
Title: Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
Post by: Victor Laszlo on September 13, 2017, 09:45:12 PM
Quote
I wasn't sure what was causing this and still not sure.

The violet leads are bridged, along with all the other leads. There are sneak paths between the phones over the violet leads. The BSP will explain it, and you can trace the sneak paths on the wiring diagram.