Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => Pay Station Telephones => All Other Pay Telephones => Topic started by: Sigmaz on December 19, 2017, 11:45:31 AM

Title: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Sigmaz on December 19, 2017, 11:45:31 AM
Hey gang, here's a quick one for ya..

I just picked up a WE single slot that has a protel 8000 installed.

I configured the phone with Jim's settings and asked it to call home for his custom rate load.

I can hear his modem pick up for a split second, then the receiver goes silent for about 5 seconds then I hear a data burst and the line hangs up.
This sounds kind of like his system didn't like what my phone had to say.
Does anyone have any idea what I'm doing wrong? Or is this service no longer available.

Background info: I first had tried to perform a download through my Asterisk Server via an SPA-1001.. I figured that at 300 or 1200 baud I shouldn't have much of a latency issue, but after a few attempts I pulled the phone and went to my office.

Again I tried via my PBX, this time physically connected to one of the FXO ports of my office server.. Still no dice, I thought maybe the card could be slowing down the audio stream so I took it a step further and tapped into my FAX machine (yes we still have one) line. Same result. same exact sounds on the handset.

Any help is appreciated..

FYI I do have a copy of ExpressNet 1.55 but I haven't had a chance to set up a lab to tinker with it yet.

If I could manually trigger ExpressNet to Dial and the phone to "AT A" on command I could get away with just a length of satin cord.... <bangs head>
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Randie on December 19, 2017, 12:06:58 PM
Sigmaz,

I was thinking the same thing (just connecting up a line from the phone to the modem on a local PC w/Expressnet), but never went much beyond thinking about it.  Think you'd have to have a line simulator (dial tone), but a simulator costs more than my phone!  If you figure out how to make it work, I'd sure like to hear about it!
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Sigmaz on December 19, 2017, 12:47:07 PM
Well I know that if you have the ability to communicate with the modem directly you can force it to dial or originate a connection without a need for a dial tone by adding an X0 or X3 to disable dial tone detection in the Dial command string
On the phone side, I don't know if there are any commands to punch into the keypad to force an auto answer carrier.

As for simulating the line the attached schematic should do the trick..

idk.. just thinking out loud too..


Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Sigmaz on December 19, 2017, 02:35:42 PM
But this brings up a couple of good question that probably only a few here can answer..

What makes the Protel UPMS1200 so much different than a standard Hayes compatible modem?
Can protel phones in fact be programmed by "run of the mill" modems?

I see in ExpressNet that you can select an "Other" type of modem..
Will selecting this option and defining a standard INIT string do the trick? or is a Protel Modem really necessary?

-jon
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: TelePlay on December 19, 2017, 02:40:31 PM
idk.. just thinking out loud too..

What DC bias voltage do you think is seen on the line with that circuit (24 VDC and 1k resistor).
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Sigmaz on December 19, 2017, 03:18:52 PM
Full disclosure, I'm a little hesitant to answer...

Gotta say, I'm slightly intimidated by your signature and affiliation with a group of people that clearly have vast more experience with telephones and associated systems than myself.

I'm merely a hobbyist/enthusiast. That being said, I found this diagram while searching for "DIY Phone line simulator".
It's my understanding, (albeit only based on the knowledge of an enthusiast) that the bias voltage measured at the capacitor would be 24v and the line could provide ~24mA of current.
Of course if you're measuring between respective open Tip/Ring pairs you wouldn't see any bias.

I'm not sure if you're inquiring or testing me. I feel I should suppose the latter. But that's probably because I'm a newbie here.

I do think I found a possible solution to a technical stumbling block, and it seems legit to me,
If you feel I'm incorrect in any way please do feel free to point out my error.

I wouldn't want to be marked as a bad egg for giving faulty info.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Payphone411 on December 19, 2017, 03:23:03 PM
A Protel modem is not needed, the below is from the Expressnet Manual.
You can use your own modem but you have to setup Expressnet to be able to use it/understand it.

Expressnet is able to program the modem via the software.

Sorry I tied to format this the best I could.


ExpressNet®
Modems
Parity
Modem Setup
Field Definitions
{continued)
This field should normally be set to "N." The program does not require parity.
This field may be changed for diagnostics purposes only. Changing this field for normal program operation
may result in the loss of communication with your payphones.

Bits Per Character
This field should normally be set to "8" (8 data bits per character.)
This field may be changed for diagnostics purposes only. Changing this field for normal program operation
may result in the loss of communication with your payphones.

Stop Bits
This field should normally be set to "2" (2 stop bit).
This field may be changed for diagnostics purposes only. Changing this field for normal program operation
may result in the loss of communication with your payphones.

Protel Modem
This field should be set to "Y" if a Protel modem is installed.
If a non Protel modem is used this field should be set to "N"

Polling Speed
Set this field to match the baud rate of the phones that this modem port will be communicating with.
If the baud rate of this modem port is different than the baud rate of the modem in the phones, communication
between the computer and the phone(s) may be corrupted.

Change Test Modem
This field is used to set up parameters for new modems or to test a modem that is currently connected to this
port. Upon selection of this option a new screen is displayed prompting you to define the operating parameters
for the modem. Reference the following page for information on setting theses operating parameters.
ADDING A NEW MODEM
a. Use the arrow keys to highlight the field Change/Test Modem: and then press [SPACE].
b. Press [F3] Add.
c. Enter a descriptive name for the modem. Any combination of up to 20 alpha/numeric
characters may be used.
d. Press [F2] Save.
e. Define the parameters for the new modem. (See next page for field definitions.)
f. Press [F2] Save.


EDITING AN EXISTING MODEM
a. Use the arrow keys to highlight the field Change/Test Modem: and then press [SPACE].
b. Use the Up/Dn arrows to select the modem to be edited.
c. Press [F7] edit/test.
d. Edit the parameters for the modem. (See next page for field definitions.)
e. Press [F2] Save.


TESTING THE MODEM
a. Use the arrow keys to highlight the field Change/Test Modem: and then press [SPACE].
b. Use the Up/Dn arrows to select modem to be tested.
c. Press [F7] edit/test.
d. Use the arrow keys to highlight the field labeled Test Command.
e. Enter the command to be sent to the modem.
f. Press [F8] to send the test command to the modem. Page 7-17



ExpressNet®
Modems
Modem Setup
Field Definitions
(continued)
Listed below are definitions of each of the option fields on the change/test modem screen.

Model
This field may only be edited when adding or cloning a new modem definition file.
a. Enter the model name of the modem that will use these setup parameters.
• Any combination of up to 20 alpha/numeric characters may be used.
Example: PROTEL

Description
Enter a descriptive comment that can be associated with the modem being defined. Any combination of up
to 40 alpha/numeric characters may be used. Example: PROTEL

Init
Use this field to specify the command that the program should send to the modem to initialize it. If this string
needs to be modified, reference your modem manual for acceptable command codes and then specify the
applicable string.
   Note: By default the program assumes that a Protel modem is being used and thus sets up the
initialization string for this modem. If a non Protel modem is used the initialization
string must be reset for the modem being used. In addition, the option labeled "Protel
Modem?" must be set to "N".

Answer
This field is used to specify the command that instructs the modem to answer incoming calls. This command
is usually defined as ATA. If this string needs to be modified, reference your modem manual for acceptable
command codes.

The number of rings that the modem will wait before answering an incoming call is defined in the "SO" register
of the initialization string. For more information on changing this setting, reference your modem manual.

Dial300
Enter the command that will instruct the modem to dial for connection at 300 bps. This command is usually
set to ATDT which tells the modem to dial the number in DTMF. If the phone needs to dial in pulse (DP,)
the dial string should be set toATDP.
The dial command instructs the modem to go off hook and dial the numbers following the dial command.
The numbers to be dialed are defined in the Auto Polling and Manual Polling section of the program.
4/17/95 XNETRM001.0 For more information on variations of the dial command, reference your modem manual.
Page 7-18
Dial1200


Reset
Test Command
ExpressNet®
4/'17/95 XNETRM001.0
Modems
Dial1200
Modem Setup
Field Definitions
(continued)
Enter the command that will instruct the modem to dial for connection at 1200 bps. This command is usually
set to ATDT which tells the modem to dial the number in DTMF. If the phone needs to dial in pulse (DP,)
the dial string should be set to ATDP.
The dial command instructs the modem to go off hook and dial the numbers following the dial command. The
numbers to be dialed by the program are defined in the Auto Polling and Manual Polling section of the
program.
For more information on variations oi the dial command, reference your modem manual.
Reset
Enter the command that will instruct the modem to reset. This command is used to reset all command variables
and registers to their default values and also erase any commands currently in the modem's command buffer.
The reset command is usually set to ATZ.
Test Command
Specify the commands to be used to test the modem. Reference your modem manual for a listing of modem
test commands.
This concludes the definitions of the modem setup fields.
Page 7-19


Report
Information
ExpressNet®
4/17/95 XNETRM001.0
Modems
Communication Errors
This function may be used to view a report, on screen, detailing errors that occurred during communication
between the computer and the phones.
Listed below are descriptions of each of the fields of information that may be displayed on this screen.
The information included in the report is as follows:
Date ........ Date that the error occurred.
Time ........ Time of day that the error occurred.
Group ..... Group that the phone is assigned to.
Site ......... Telephone number of the phone site.
P# ............ Modem port communicating with the phone.
0=COM1
1 =COM2
2 = DIGI1
3= DIGI2
9= DIGI8
E# ............ A number indicating the error that occurred.
Error ....... A message describing the error that occurred.
















Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Sigmaz on December 19, 2017, 03:40:29 PM
A Protel modem is not needed, the below is from the Expressnet Manual

Sorry I tied to format this the best I could.


It was really cool of you to go to the trouble. Formatting is just fine.

2 stop bits? at 1200 Baud? I guess they wanted all the slack they could get, Old phone lines can be troublesome.

Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: TelePlay on December 19, 2017, 04:38:41 PM
Full disclosure, I'm a little hesitant to answer...

Gotta say, I'm slightly intimidated by your signature and affiliation with a group of people that clearly have vast more experience with telephones and associated systems than myself.

I'm merely a hobbyist/enthusiast. That being said, I found this diagram while searching for "DIY Phone line simulator".
It's my understanding, (albeit only based on the knowledge of an enthusiast) that the bias voltage measured at the capacitor would be 24v and the line could provide ~24mA of current.
Of course if you're measuring between respective open Tip/Ring pairs you wouldn't see any bias.

I'm not sure if you're inquiring or testing me. I feel I should suppose the latter. But that's probably because I'm a newbie here.

I do think I found a possible solution to a technical stumbling block, and it seems legit to me,
If you feel I'm incorrect in any way please do feel free to point out my error.

I wouldn't want to be marked as a bad egg for giving faulty info.

None of the above.

Just curious and since I don't know the current in the circuit, was just guessing at the DC component on the line. I would think it would be somewhere around 10 volts DC. I know of biasing a line with DC but doing it and testing it are something way above my pay grade.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Payphone installer on December 19, 2017, 05:52:58 PM
I read some of this stuff and I can say some of you folks get to deep in the woods,a protel modem is the fastest simplest way,the settings 411 posted also work well. 411 I used your 411 for years you know me and your trouble reporting system. 411 knows his stuff when it comes to protel.
When I say to far in the woods you can drive a car and understand that it has a engine and even what kind. You do not need to know the crank diameter or the piston gap on the cylinder. Understanding the concept is better then the deep dive. Jim
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: tallrick on December 21, 2017, 09:46:14 PM
If it is confirmed that a Protel modem is not needed to run Expressnet is there any particular modem you used that worked? I have a bunch of vintage modems to choose from, internal and external. Am debating whether to go with a 386 or 486 or newer desktop computer to run Expressnet on or an old laptop. Honestly if I had my way I would stick a 386 motherboard in one of my XT cases with a CGA monitor and click clack IBM keyboard. Those of us without analog phone lines simply cannot use a remote computer to program our Protel phones. I hope the 3.5 inch floppy that the Expressnet software is on is even still good because I have not been able to find a download for it anywhere.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Payphone installer on December 22, 2017, 10:15:37 AM
I still have the software running at my office on a doss computer as I recall there were problems with it running on a windows machine. O am talking on windows 98.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: tallrick on December 22, 2017, 12:23:06 PM
Dos 6.2 was what I used last time, what version are you running?
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Sigmaz on December 22, 2017, 03:05:47 PM
I'd really love to find a copy of Panorama. But good luck with that right..
 ;D ;D

I have been testing ExpressNet running on a Windows 98 Virtual PC machine and it seems to function (software wise) properly.

I copied the install files to the root of C: and installed from there, and then cleaned up by simply deleting the 8 installation files.
the install.dat script is coded to install from the root of the drive the files are stored to. Typically A:
The suite cannot be installed from a subdirectory of a drive because of the way the install routines are written.
They can however be reworked. But I didn't feel like messing with it, especially since deleting 8 files is the only cleanup work

Never thought I'd say this but, I am waiting for the delivery of a USR 56k external modem. Should be here by the 30th

I can redirect the VM's com ports to the host machine's physical port. so that should get me a path to talk to the modem.. then the rest should (hopefully) just work.

I know that there used to be issues between using LPT ports in DOS vs Windows but that had much to do with spooling and drivers.

I can't say I know of any serial issues, But I'll find out for sure in a few days.

Yes, I know.. I'm taking a deepwoods trip but I like to pull back the curtain and watch the wizard yank on the levers and turn the cranks.

I still have the software running at my office on a doss computer as I recall there were problems with it running on a windows machine. O am talking on windows 98.
But does the test site profile still exist for 5555555555?
I read that you said it was deleted back in Feb '17 perhaps it happened again ...
I don't think you got back to us on that yet. (Thanks! in advance)
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Payphone411 on December 22, 2017, 08:50:55 PM
Expressnet will run on Windows98 SE and below in DOS mode.
That’s what I run on.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Sigmaz on December 30, 2017, 02:56:36 PM
OK!
I've got Dos 6.22 and ExpressNet booting off an SD card via USB reader..
It makes a nice tidy easy way of keeping the machine from being a special purpose rig. The virtual machine route had issues and was too finicky.

OS/Hardware wise everything is fine as far as that goes however.. I'm having a little trouble with some other operational things that are most likely the result of a messed up program load in the phone.

Does anyone have the lowdown on programming code 28 I was lead to believe that this is used for forcing the phones modem to use either 300 or 1200 bps ( I was informed to enter 28 01010101 * to force the phone to 1200 but I think this bit may be the source of  some of my trouble.

Also.....
I have to force the PC modem to 300 bps (AT...&N1) to get communications with the phone but then I just hit the next wall.

ExpressNet is reporting I have a problem with my security code (Err 13) and fails the poll attempt.
I tried leaving the code empty, 0000, and a self defined value in the options. no dice. may be because i never got *#3 to work...

I have initialized the phone several times (00 xxxxxxxxxx *, 25 xxxxxxxxxxx *) but still have this issue.
Is there a factory default jumper or code that can be entered to dump the nvram settings from it's previous life?

I'm also interested in any docs on the 29x range of programmable features.
I'm taking a hunch that range pertains to the pin codes for coin box totals, coin box clearing, card pin...
I wish there was more available documentation out there...

So it's a few things I'm running into.. the phone will train down to 300 to accept polls, but I have a security code issue.. and the other way around is that the phone will call the pc and connect at 1200 at the modem layer, but the data is corrupted because the modem assumes I have a protel modem?..
FYI Protel modem Y/N option is set to NO..

I don't care if it takes longer, the one who tells me how to force the phone down to 300 gets a star.


Thanks guys
Jon


Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Payphone installer on December 30, 2017, 03:52:16 PM
email me on my email with your phone number I can help you. jimrayxx@aol.com it is way to much to type.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Payphone installer on December 30, 2017, 04:14:02 PM
The baud rate or modem speed can be  adjusted in the software. It is set in the site record. Do you have any firmware loaded in the software? Do you have a rate file set up in the software? Do you have a options file set up in the software? These are all imports that are necessary for the phone to take the download. What board are you trying to download? This may help.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Payphone installer on December 30, 2017, 04:15:38 PM
instructions
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Payphone installer on December 30, 2017, 04:16:44 PM
more
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Sigmaz on December 30, 2017, 05:50:36 PM
The baud rate or modem speed can be  adjusted in the software. It is set in the site record. Do you have any firmware loaded in the software? Do you have a rate file set up in the software? Do you have a options file set up in the software? These are all imports that are necessary for the phone to take the download. What board are you trying to download? This may help.

I do have a site record, costing record, and options record set up.
As for firmware,  I do not know where in the file structure it would be stored or where to get any update packages .
The software copy I have doesn't show any folders.
I am attempting to load an 8000 series board. FYI I have 2 and they are both behaving the same..
They are also both from the same source.
Thanks for the cheat sheet captures..

Jon

I'll email you now.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Duffy on December 30, 2017, 05:56:18 PM
Payphone installer

I hope you don't mind, I cleaned up your pictures and put them into PDF form.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: TelePlay on December 30, 2017, 06:14:18 PM
Payphone installer

I hope you don't mind, I cleaned up your pictures and put them into PDF form.

Duffy,

I could not open this file in any of the 3 pdf programs I have on my computer. Each result in this error message.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Sigmaz on December 30, 2017, 07:02:41 PM
wierd.. it opened for me in the browser without issue.
maybe he fixed it already....
 ;)
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Duffy on December 30, 2017, 07:12:50 PM
Duffy,

I could not open this file in any of the 3 pdf programs I have on my computer. Each result in this error message.

Works for me... I can send it to you though an PM if you want.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: TelePlay on December 30, 2017, 07:17:03 PM
wierd.. it opened for me in the browser without issue.
maybe he fixed it already....
 ;)

Weird is right. It opened up just fine on another laptop I use. Must be my dungeon machine that has the issue. Both laptops are using Win7 with Firefox. Computers, right?
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Sigmaz on December 30, 2017, 07:32:38 PM
I'm on Win7 with chrome on this Lab PC
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Payphone installer on December 30, 2017, 08:41:49 PM
I am not in front of a PC with the software running and have not been for a long time,but I can look at it on Tuesday. I do know that as you look at the site record on the right as I recall it says firmware version once you talk to the phone this will populate with the version number. If your chassis has never connected it will not be there. There are certain versions of firmware that work better on certain chassis.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Dan F on December 31, 2017, 12:50:16 AM
No problem for me. Windows XP, Adobe Reader 11

Duffy,

I could not open this file in any of the 3 pdf programs I have on my computer. Each result in this error message.

Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Payphone411 on December 31, 2017, 07:44:38 PM
I can post the Expressnet Software manual on my website tomorrow.
Also what screen shots do you want.
Title: Re: My Protel Pay Phone with issues
Post by: Sigmaz on January 03, 2018, 03:11:32 PM
YEAY!!!!

I got it to take a download!!

just on a whim I hit the *#2 command as If I was switching the chassis out.. sure enough it took the Download without complaint!

That's big news for today. I'm so excited!
Of course the phone number and rates and options will be fixed but for now this is a huge deal since I've been hacking at this unit for a couple of weeks.

(Oh, and nevermind the flags, This test was done with a spare chassis laying on the bench)