Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Technical "Stuff" => Topic started by: AE_Collector on November 27, 2011, 03:36:44 PM

Title: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 27, 2011, 03:36:44 PM
One thing that I have never really paid a lot of attention to is the various models of AE Dials.

I know that the earliest AE dial would be the large Strowger 10 digit dial that was then turned into the more familiar large Strowger 11 digit dial. These are the large dials found on Strowger Wooden wall phones and Strowger Pot Belly Sticks. By the way these were dials for 3 wire phones where 3 leads were needed back to the CO to put through a call.

Then they came out with the smaller dials and I believe that the Sunburst would have been the first one lasting only about 1 year until it was upgraded to what we now call the Mercedes Dial. These dials were all slightly smaller than the modern 3” dials, I think they were 2 7/8” inches or so in diameter. Some or maybe all of the Sunburst Dials were made for the 3 wire system as well. Either the Sunburst or the Mercedes variants were available for both 2 or 3 wire Exchange systems as CO's were converting to a 2 wire dialling system at the time.

There was a type 23 that was still smaller than 3” but it looked very much like the type 24 and up in the way it’s number card holder was designed.

After that came the Type 24 Dial presumably developed in about 1924 consistent with AE's model numbering scheme of the era where models began with the year.

Then in 1936 the type 24 was upgraded to a 24A36 which had what was called "Pawl Quieting" so that it didn't click while being wound up (not while it was returning to normal like the WECO dials that clicked).

Then on to type 51 and after that the type 52.

I have started this thread because even though I call myself AE_collector that doesn't mean that I know a whole lot about this stuff. I'm hoping that those who know anything about any particular model of AE dial will tell us what they know and maybe even post pictures of the front and the back and this can become a resource for information on AE's dials.

Terry

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 27, 2011, 03:37:39 PM
Here is a PDF that gives lots of great info on most of the AE dials from the Type 24 on up. I'll use this to build a shorter comparison chart and then hopefully add pictures. There is a comparison chart on page 8 of the 30 page document. G-Man pointed this document out to me.

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=70&Itemid=2

A few basics of AE dials from the document to get started:

Type 24 Dials (1924) clicked on wind up. Type 24A36 (1936) Dials had "Pawl Quieting" which quieted but didn't completely eliminate the clicking on wind up. You can still faintly hear he clicks.

Type 24 and 24A36 Dials had Stamped brass bodies with a silvery color to them as though they were tin plated. The next dial, the Type 51 (1951) and all later dials had the die cast aluminum/zinc bodies.

The Type 24, 24A36 & 51 Dials all had single contacts for pulse and shunt. Beginning with the Type 51A (1954) all contacts became Bifurcated (double contacts). The 51A also had tapped bosses on the back for mounting a rear dust cover.

The Type 52, 52F, 53A, 53AF, 53B, & 53BF Dials are the ones that allowed for the larger plastic number plates used on AE 80's & 90's. The "F" indicates wire wrap and soldered lead connections where the ones without the "F" are screw terminals like all of the predecesors. The "A" and "AF" are SATT Dials and the "B" and "BF" are SATT B Dials.

Type 54, 54AF & 54BF (1960) are all for use with AE 182 Desk Starlite Phones and later 192 Wall Starlite Phones. They have the Electroluminescent Disk in them and a square Numberplate. All are wirewrap/solder connections and the A & B versions are for SATT use as described with Type 53 Dials above.

I January 1974 all Dials from Type 52 through Type 54 were redesigned changing a lot of parts to plastic. The Shunt Cam was changed to Aluminum (from Brass I believe).

Type 154A Dial (1968) is the smaller Dial with moving Fingerstop for AE Styleline Phones. There were sigificant changes to this dial over the years as well.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 27, 2011, 03:38:38 PM
I am going to reserve a few spots right at the top here so down the road I can sumarise all the information and pictures of various dial types and bring it to the top of this discussion.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 27, 2011, 03:42:57 PM
Okay, that should do it . I haven't seen anyone do THIS before so thought I would give it a try since only 6 pictures can be included in one single post.

Let the replies begin!

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 27, 2011, 04:33:56 PM
I've been fascinated by the AE dials, especially the early ones.  I've been taking notes every time I find information about these dials, and here's a brief summary of my notes:

1909 - type 9 dial, Sunburst
1911 - type 11, Mercedes dial card holder, cardboard number plate and glass cover.
1911 - type 11, mercedes dial card holder 2 3/4 " fingerwheel, ceramic number plate
1918 - type 18, mercedes dial card holder,  2 3/4" fingerwheel
1923 - type 23, came with the round number card holder.   2 7/8" fingerwheel, and larger finger holes.
1924 - type 24.  3" fingerwheel.

That's all I have, and it may not be correct.   The type 11 have little nubs on the back two mounting brackets, and a screw hole only on the front tab.  Later all three brackets had screw holes and no nubs.  I don't know yet what defines the type 18 dial other than the extra contacts.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: rdelius on November 28, 2011, 10:40:26 AM
the type 23 had mounting holes in the standard pattern and the fingerwheel had larger holes
Robby
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 28, 2011, 01:13:26 PM
the type 23 had mounting holes in the standard pattern and the fingerwheel had larger holes
Robby

Standard pattern like the type 24 and later dials?

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 28, 2011, 05:01:30 PM
This is what I think of when I refer to a #23 dial -
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 28, 2011, 05:25:52 PM
#11 on the left, #18 on the right.  Both of these fingerwheels are 2 3/4".  I purchased a half dozen of these dials before I figured out the differences.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: GG on November 29, 2011, 12:41:37 AM


51-A was the standard 3" dial in the 1970s and probably goes back to 1951 per what we're learning about AE nomenclature.

52 was the extended numberplate dial used in AE 80s, and probably goes back to 1952. 

These numbers were in use in the mid to late 1970s, and probably persisted until AE switched over to the dials with the plastic ratchet pawls. 

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 29, 2011, 12:51:07 AM
51-A was the standard 3" dial in the 1970s and probably goes back to 1951 per what we're learning about AE nomenclature.

52 was the extended numberplate dial used in AE 80s, and probably goes back to 1952. 

So the Type 51 replaced the 24A36. If so the AE 40 & 50 would have had 24A36 in the first 11-12 years and then the type 51or 51A dials in the last 9-10 years.

Presumably the AE 80 was the first AE phone to need the extended number plate dial (52) and it didn't come out until 1954 at the very earliest I believe but as we know, AE was always pretty loose with numbering so they may have gone with 52 for a dial that was a 51A but with extended number plate just to keep the numbers adjacent to one another.

Lots of good info guys!

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 29, 2011, 12:54:43 AM
This is what I think of when I refer to a #23 dial -

So it appears that the 11, 18 & 23 dials all have the older type mount and then the Type 24 changed to the more modern dial mount configuration. Anyone want to second this observation?

What other "small dials" have I missed between the LARGE Strowger dial and the more modern 3" dials? Just the Type 9 Sunburst? Thanks for the list WDS. This has helped me already becasue I didn't know that there were so many variations of the early dials and if I had ever heard the mosel numbers it had escaped me long ago.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: GG on November 29, 2011, 01:16:55 AM


Dave, I have here in my hand an AE dial that looks like your 23 in the first plcture except the fingerwheel is chrome and there's a black stamped metal disc with a screw in the center rather than a number retainer.  The disc is indexed through a tiny little tab that fits into a hole in the fingerwheel just past digit 0.  The disc also has little holes or slots near the location of digits 4 / 5, and near the location of digit 0, that conform to the layout of the little tabs on the retainer rings used on AE dial blanks.

However the screw in the center of the disc is a round-head screw such that you can't put a retainer ring in place or the screw will bulge up into the paper number label and thereby cause the retainer to fail to be seated.  And the screw used in the center of the corresponding type of disc from an AE dial blank does not have the same threads. 

The fingerwheel is exactly 2  11/16" and the base of the dial is 2 3/4" in diameter (slightly larger than the fingerwheel). 

The backside of the dial lacks the little holes seen around the periphery of the dial in your type 23 photos, which appear to be at about 2:00 and 8:00 as seen on the photo there.  Those holes are also absent in the photo of the backside of your type 18 dial.  This makes me think I've got a type 18 here (I have another of these around somewhere, with a ceramic Keystone disc in the center instead of the black metal disc).

What do you think?  And also, can you post photos of what's behind the "Mercedes" number card retainer? 

--

I'm also looking at a dial that's basically a 51-A except it has the "military-style" off-normal contacts on the back (the extra contacts that open when the dial is off-normal, to make it compatible with WE 5H for use on 302s) and is marked 838G on the back, and is in a round box labeled D 84838 G. 

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: GG on November 29, 2011, 01:24:20 AM



Terry, you can't tell a 24-A-36 from a 51-A by casual visual inspection; from the front they look identical.   

You can either a) wind up the dial and listen: 24-A-36 will have a quiet ratchet sound and 51-A will be silent; or you can b) take off the fingerwheel and look for the following:

24-A-36: has a piece of piano wire over the ratchet pawl.  This is what gives it the "quiet ratchet sound" compared to the louder clicking of the type 24 when the dial is wound up. 

51-A: has a little ratchet-lifter, which makes it silent when wound up.  The ratchet-lifter is another very thin washer-like disc on the main shaft, with one end that holds the ratchet pawl off the ratchet wheel when the dial is being wound up.  The ratchet-lifter will typically have a rectangular piece that sticks out on the opposite side of the lifting surface, in the vicinity of between digits 4 and 5.  When you rotate the main shaft, that little rectangular bit will appear to lag behind slightly, which is how it's supposed to act as it lifts the pawl off the ratchet wheel.

Also there are differences in the AE logos on the backside of the dials:

Type 24:  From the rear, the AECO logo "AECO" appears in an oval on the backside in roughly the same location as the diamond that replaced it on later models. 

24-A-36: the logo is a diamond with a slightly larger dividing line (or two lines) between the letters AE and CO in the diamond, and the diamond is "taller" relative to its width, than the version of that logo used on the 51-A. 

51-A: the logo is a diamond with one dividing line between the AE and CO portions.

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: stub on November 29, 2011, 01:39:56 AM
Terry,
          This was listed, a few yrs ago, as a Type 9, 1909 Sunburst . That's all I know about it.    stub  
                                                              ( Pics are copies)                                        
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: G-Man on November 29, 2011, 04:48:35 AM
This is in the TCI Library-                                                                                                       stub
                                               http://tinyurl.com/7faj2o3

Also-
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=70&Itemid=2
Types 24, 24A36, 51, 51A, 52, 52F, 53A, 53AF, 53B, 53BF, 54F, 54AF, 54BF and 154A

Thanks!
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 29, 2011, 07:32:34 AM
Here's a picture of the ring that holds the number card in place on the #23 dial.  GG, can you post a picture of your dial?  Sounds like someone may have switched the #23 fingerwheel for an earlier one.  Or maybe you have a GPO version of the mercedes?
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 29, 2011, 07:52:29 AM
Here's a picture of the two types of mercedes dial  - the one on the right doesn't have that ratchet pawl, instead it uses a flat piece of metal.  It combines the ratchet pawl and the metal flat piece that holds it in place into one flat piece.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 30, 2011, 10:53:22 PM
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=70&Itemid=2
Types 24, 24A36, 51, 51A, 52, 52F, 53A, 53AF, 53B, 53BF, 54F, 54AF, 54BF and 154A

This PDF has a ton of useful info to help differentiate various AE dials from the type 24 on up. I have added a summary of the info covering AE Type 24 Dials and up in my second post at the top of this thread.

Thanks for pointing this one out to us G-Man.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: GG on December 01, 2011, 12:28:45 AM


Dave, on the one I have (and the other one like it with a black fingerwheel), the disc shown in your photo is what's in the dial center, but with a round-head screw and without a retainer ring.  However it fits the same retainer ring as AE manual dial blanks.

From the next set of photos, the ratchet pawl spring is same as the one under the left "Mercedes" ring, but w/o that intermediate cardboard insert. 

Dial numberplate is held to dial chassis by three bent prongs in the rear though one of the prongs is missing.  In the fingerwheel photo, mine is the type shown at the left.  In the pictures of rear of dial photo, mine is also the type shown at the left. 

Though, the dial rear shown at the right looks VERY familiar, I recall holding one of those in my hands years ago, and thinking that the off-normal contacts had broken off because they should have been on the right (d'oh!).  Maybe that's my other example of this type, or maybe something else, I'll have to look around.

I'm still lagging on getting photography operational here.  Tonight I'm doin' the ol' worky-work, programming a switch or two while logged in here.  (Reading & writing here while waiting for PBX database screens to load over dialup).  Got another switch to program for cutover next week.  Anyway, long back-stack before I have time to get my photo setup going.  (Better to have too much work than not enough these days.)
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Wallphone on December 01, 2011, 05:56:43 AM
Here is the dial chart in 997-300-500 (page 8) from the TCI Library turned around for easier reading.
This chart & one for the # 51 / 52 dial can be found in the TCI Library here < http://tinyurl.com/83koyny >
Doug Pav
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: kleenax on December 02, 2011, 06:57:38 PM
I have a couple more dials to throw into the thread here. I haven't heard anyone mention the difinitive difference in finger-stops, or did I simply miss that part? Additionally, there should be some note of the distinct metamorphosis in number rings from the early, glass-covered paper number rings to the early THICK porcelain, to what we had in the end. By the way, the glass on the early examples (with paper number ring) is SUPER-THIN (3/64"), and about impossible to cut in a conventional manner. Probably would have to be etched with acid.

Lastly, I have attached photos of an early "Kellogg" dial that although similar to an AE dial, sure does look different from the back! And, I also included one photo (I have many of it) of the strangest dial that I have ever seen; an "American Automatic Telephone Company" dial (of sorts). I literally found this dial apparatus on the FLOOR of an old antique shop when the owner KICKED it out of the way like you would an old beer can!
Photos attached.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Wallphone on December 02, 2011, 08:12:51 PM
Nice looking dials Ray. I'll trade you a 1A2 Key System for that last pushbutton dial. ;D I wonder how many of THEM were ever made. As for Kellogg dials I have noticed that some 10D dials have a worm shaft that is manufactured differently. Instead of cutting the worm into the shaft they wound a stiff "wire" around it and spot welded the ends (see pic). Has anyone ever seen this style of worm shaft on an AE dial?
Doug Pav
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: GG on December 02, 2011, 10:51:45 PM


Ray, check your messages, I'm interested in a couple of your GPO dials.

Re. the first AE dial there: looks like an Australian version, with that lettering. Yo everyone, notice the impulse cam: on first glance it appears as if one of the wings broke off but it's also possible that it just revolved twice as fast so the single wing was all that was needed.

It would be interesting to know what instructions they put where on that card retainer that's divided into quarters.

I have one of those early Kellogg dials minus fingerstop and fingerwheel, aside from which it runs like almost-new. The impulse cam on that bears an interesting resemblance to what WE chose for the #6 and #7 dial.  Question is whether I should pester a friend at a machine shop to make me a fingerwheel & fingerstop for it, or offer it up as part of a trade for something else?

Does your odd pushbutton dial make regular dial pulses?  Apparently it doesn't have a way of storing digits ("pause before pressing next button"), which may be why it didn't get off the ground: too many impatient people getting wrong numbers.  Does digit 5 have extra contacts or what's up with using it as a "ring" button?

Wallphone, re. your 10-D: 

That arrangement of the worm looks familiar but I can't say for sure I've seen one like that on a Kellogg 10- dial.  Though, I'm darn sure I've never seen that on an AE dial, it would have immediately struck me as an exception. 

Re. Kellogg 10-G and possibly 10-D: when you dial 0 on those, the dial hits an internal stop that's a tiny bit ahead of the fingerstop or exactly even with it, so there's a risk of wearing down the D-shaped mounting hole for the fingerwheel and then the fingerwheel not matching up perfectly with the digits.  The fix for which is either a) dial 0 gently, b) see if the fingerstop can be altered or repositioned slightly without doing damage, or c) disassemble entirely and grind the internal stop slightly to give it more room. 

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on December 17, 2011, 01:48:45 PM
#11 on the left, #18 on the right.  Both of these fingerwheels are 2 3/4".  I purchased a half dozen of these dials before I figured out the differences.

Back to Dials here again.

WDS:
The apparent difference between the #11 (left) and #18 (right) is that the #11 appears to only have pulsing contacts while the #18 has additional contacts to short or disconnect the receiver. Is that how it appears to you as well?

However, it looks as though the #11 was designed to have room for more contact pile-ups so maybe that can't be used to tell them apart. Maybe they could be ordered with or without the shorting contact set back then.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on December 17, 2011, 02:05:26 PM
The first picture is the #11 from the side, the second picture is the #18.  Notice the #11 has extra contacts.  Maybe this is a later #11?  (or maybe it's any ultra rare #11 1/2?)  Otherwise, I think you're right about the differences between the #11 & #18.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on December 17, 2011, 05:40:37 PM
So that is the same #11 dial as the one you posted here earlier? Are the extra contacts a part of the pulsing contact pile-up?

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on December 17, 2011, 05:41:58 PM
Here's one on ebaY at the moment. Any thoughts as to which model it is?

Terry

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150718567111
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on December 17, 2011, 06:24:53 PM
It looks like a standard #18 without the dial card ring.   
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: rdelius on December 17, 2011, 09:05:59 PM
Have an American Electric stick whth the Keystone dial . This is from Philidelphia
Robby
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on December 19, 2011, 06:12:10 PM
Kleenax - that odd looking Kellogg Dial you posted a picture of - I found a picture of it in the 1923 Kellogg Catalog.  Page 254
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: kleenax on December 19, 2011, 10:32:41 PM
Kleenax - that odd looking Kellogg Dial you posted a picture of - I found a picture of it in the 1923 Kellogg Catalog.  Page 254
Excellent!  Thanks for posting this!  I don't have that catalog; only the newer editions.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: GG on December 20, 2011, 05:31:57 AM


Yeah, thanks majorly.  Instant guide to disassembling the one I have.

Question is, is there anywhere one might find a replacement fingerwheel and fingerstop for those, or do they have to be custom made?  (Mine is missing those parts, eeyow).

Kleenax, do you still have any of those old GPO #10 dials for sale, with the small number cards?  I'm looking for two, one for a 150, one for a 232.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on December 27, 2011, 03:20:17 PM
Here's a Kellogg dial for sale.  

http://tinyurl.com/kellogg-dial
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: GG on December 29, 2011, 08:06:25 AM


That one is probably a little older than mine, which has the number plate on some kind of plastic material. 

Darn, almost $90 and two days to go: that's going to end up out of my price range, so I'm not going to even try for it.  Hopefully someone from around here ends up with it though.  It would probably be current for a Grab-A-Phone. 

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on January 06, 2012, 02:44:59 PM
For future reference, it sold for $145.77 - not bad for a broken dial.  The shunt contact was broken off.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: GG on January 07, 2012, 07:44:19 AM

Eeyow, $145 with a broken off-normal contact.  I should almost be willing to list mine without the fingerwheel & fingerstop, to see if the buyer of that one wants another in order to cobble the parts together and make one working one. 

Since we're straying a little from the original topic...

I just scored a GPO No. 8 dial in chrome or stainless steel with numeric numberplate for $50, and a solid metal fingerwheel of the same style (small number label) for less than $15 (that I can install on a No. 10 dial to "cheat" and make it look like a No. 8 dial:-)  These are headed for a Tele. 150 desk stand and a Tele. 232, in whatever combinations & permutations look right.  My inclination is to keep the Tele. 150 in all black as far as possible, and use stainless steel for the Tele. 232.

If you try using the old solid metal fingerwheels from No. 8 dials on No. 10 dials, you MUST be careful to check the clearance between the fingerwheel, the numberplate, and the fingerstop.  You will need a very thin spacer (a washer is too thick) to raise the fingerwheel just a tiny bit so it doesn't crack the numberplate when screwed down, but not so high that it gets jammed on the fingerstop.  Work slowly and do not tighten the center screw fully without checking clearances and testing the dial as you go.  I ran into this issue and fortunately didn't damage anything along the way.  (However, trying to make a trigger dial look like a No. 8 dial is right out; these mods are intended for slipping cam dials only.)
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: DavePEI on July 13, 2013, 09:55:16 AM
Hi All:

Curiosity calling. I know I once read an explanation for this, but why is it that some AE 24 dials have 5 terminals - some have 6. Now, a 6 terminal one may be used in the same circuit as a 5 terminal one, by jumpering the top terminals and then wiring as a 5 terminal dial. Both varieties are labelled AE 24.

It is my impression that we see more of the 6 terminal variety here in Canada (those dials made at Phillips/AE in Brockville). Did it have something to do with compatibility with retrofitting the dials on other brands of phones, i.e. Northern Electric as was often done?

Dave
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: poplar1 on July 13, 2013, 10:48:11 AM
Hi All:

I know I once read an explanation for this, but why is it that some AE 24 dials have 5 terminals - some have 6. Now, a 6 terminal one may be used in the same circuit as a 5 terminal one, by jumpering the top terminals and then wiring as a 5 terminal dial. Both varieties are labelled AE 24.

It is my impression that we see more of the 6 terminal variety here in Canada (those dials made at Phillips/AE in Brockville). Did it have something to do with compatibility with retrofitting the dials on other brands of phones, i.e. Northern Electric as was often done?

Dave

If there is a strap between the inside pulsing spring terminal and the innermost shunt spring terminal, then it would seem that you would have to have 5 terminals, lest the talking circuit be shunted out at all times.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: DavePEI on July 13, 2013, 10:53:35 AM
Hi All:

I know I once read an explanation for this, but why is it that some AE 24 dials have 5 terminals - some have 6. Now, a 6 terminal one may be used in the same circuit as a 5 terminal one, by jumpering the top terminals and then wiring as a 5 terminal dial. Both varieties are labelled AE 24.

It is my impression that we see more of the 6 terminal variety here in Canada (those dials made at Phillips/AE in Brockville). Did it have something to do with compatibility with retrofitting the dials on other brands of phones, i.e. Northern Electric as was often done?

Dave

If there is a strap between the inside pulsing spring terminal and the innermost shunt spring terminal, then it would seem that you would have to have 5 terminals, lest the talking circuit be shunted out at all times.
No, but there was one when the phone arrived. I don't believe this was the original dial on the phone,, as the phone was received with the dial, but not wired up. Once I removed the strap you mentioned, all went back to normal as you say, because it was no longer shunted out. The shorting strap that remains is on the top terminals of the shunting springs, making it the equivalent of a 5 terminal AE 24 (whereas in most AE 24s these are physically joined). I have two of the 6 terminal dials, both marked AE 24 here.

When I go over to the museum later, I will take a photo of one of the 6 terminal AE 24s.

The drawing below shows the standard AE 24 terminals and springs (black) with the extra terminal and removeable link superimposed (red).

Dave
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: G-Man on July 13, 2013, 01:46:39 PM
AECo type-24A36 dials came in a number of different flavors including some with contact spring pile-ups specifically configured for Western Electric telephones.

While the AK-25 is the most common pile-up used on Automatic Electric telephones, some of the other pile-ups include the following:

                                       AK-24, AK-26, AK-27, AK-28, AK-29

Schematics for them are shown in the Automatic Electric catalogs.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: DavePEI on July 13, 2013, 02:04:27 PM
AECo type-24A36 dials came in a number of different flavors including some with contact spring pile-ups specifically configured for Western Electric telephones.

While the AK-25 is the most common pile-up used on Automatic Electric telephones, some of the other pile-ups include the following:

                                       AK-24, AK-26, AK-27, AK-28, AK-29

Schematics for them are shown in the Automatic Electric catalogs.

Without dissecting one of the 6 terminal AE 34s I have, I can't tell if it is the same as one of the other spring configurations, but it must be. Anyway, I guess it was more curiosity than anything, as usually you see the AK-25 combination, then I ran into two 6 terminal ones in a row (yes, I did accidentally say 4 vs. 5 terminal, but of course that is 5 vs. 6 terminals - one of the problems with having the dials in the other house, and typing the message here, as I couldn't look at the dial at the same time as I typed  :) Thanks, G-Man - you have satisfied my curiosity!

Dave
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: poplar1 on July 13, 2013, 02:14:19 PM
Sorry, but I was confused. The link I was talking about was #14 on a 5-terminal dial. I'm not familiar with the 6-terminal variety as shown in red.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: DavePEI on July 13, 2013, 02:18:53 PM
Sorry, but I was confused. The link I was talking about was #14 on a 5-terminal dial. I'm not familiar with the 6-terminal variety as shown in red.
Ok, so I am still curious. I have seen several of them, and currently have two here. I am pretty sure someone detailed the reason they were made this way, and it seems to me if made it easier to sell them to manufacturers of other phones, and could still be used on AEs, but I could be mistaken... Memory doesn't get better at my age!

Dave
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: poplar1 on July 13, 2013, 02:25:32 PM
The Signal Corps dials have an extra set of contacts that are normally closed. These can be used in place of a 5H.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: DavePEI on July 13, 2013, 03:02:12 PM
Ok, maybe this is part of the answer. I was looking at schematics for the NE Uniphone, and they call for a dial with the 29AK spring arrangement. Now, this looks as though it is the same arrangement and does have 6 terminals. By strapping two, it will function as a 25AK.

Interesting - you learn something every day! About all I have seen here are 29AKs as opposed to 25AKs - when in AE equipment, they always have been strapped.

Below the 29AK diagram, the more common 25AK.

Dave
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: DavePEI on July 13, 2013, 03:56:40 PM
AECo type-24A36 dials came in a number of different flavors including some with contact spring pile-ups specifically configured for Western Electric telephones.

While the AK-25 is the most common pile-up used on Automatic Electric telephones, some of the other pile-ups include the following:

                                       AK-24, AK-26, AK-27, AK-28, AK-29

Schematics for them are shown in the Automatic Electric catalogs.


Can you provide a link to an AE catalog that shows these pile-ups. I don't see this in the M section that is on the TCI site.
They are shown in the 1944 4055D catalog. I have a copy on disk. Not sure where I got it. Page 34.

Dave
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: poplar1 on July 13, 2013, 06:22:52 PM
With some help from Paul F., I found the link to the catalog---it is 4055-D, not 4055D.  On page 31, it says (the fine print) that the shunt contacts are shown in the off-normal position, in other words, as they are with the finger wheel rotated.

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/11195-aeco-catalog-4055-d-1944-ocr-r
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: stub on July 13, 2013, 07:04:16 PM
Dave,
         AE Bulletin No. 1015 , Jan. 1, 1929, pg. 28 .     stub
                                    ( Left click on pic to enlarge)
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: paul-f on July 13, 2013, 07:32:57 PM

With some help from Paul F., I found the link to the catalog---it is 4055-D, not 4055D.  <snip> 


Thanks for pointing this out Dave.  I added 4055D to the keyword list, so it can now be found either way.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: DavePEI on July 13, 2013, 09:19:52 PM
At any rate, this has proved that you need to watch the contact configuration of a dial - it isn't merely enough to change over to a dial of the same model number.

I have no idea whether the drawings provided in a phone are drawn accurately to the point where the dial contacts are shown in their correct open or closed state, or whether those dials are shown cranked, or at rest. Nor could I see that because for an item that small, my vision is too poor to be able to see - I would see only a blur.

But the point is one has to be aware there are variations within AE 24 dials, and you do have to watch for them.

One just does the best they can, and I've never seen one yet I couldn't fix with a bit of work and thought.

Dave
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: stub on July 13, 2013, 11:17:36 PM
Dave,
           Here's another different contact arrangement (AK 26) on a AE 24 dial. This is on a AE 1A. stub
                          ( Left click on pic to enlarge)
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: stub on July 14, 2013, 08:08:47 PM
Here's another different AE 24 Dial contact arrangement  D-730342-A , AE Bulletin 1015, 1-1-1929 , pg. 28 ,  before AK numbers. ( AK28 )  stub
                                                                         left click on pic to enlarge.  
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on October 22, 2013, 08:07:16 AM
I modified my earlier post on page 1 to include a 2nd type 11 dial.  It seems the early type 11 had the paper number plate and a glass cover like the sunburst dial.  Maybe the change can be traced by the patent number on the fingerwheel?
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Contempra on October 22, 2013, 09:47:42 AM
Kleenax - that odd looking Kellogg Dial you posted a picture of - I found a picture of it in the 1923 Kellogg Catalog.  Page 254
Excellent!  Thanks for posting this!  I don't have that catalog; only the newer editions.


If you have this catalog, can you post it here please? thank you in advance. ;)
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on October 22, 2013, 09:54:03 AM
Much too large to post.  go here:

http://tinyurl.com/58xlx5

1923 catalog page 254
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Contempra on October 22, 2013, 10:30:39 AM
Much too large to post.  go here:

http://tinyurl.com/58xlx5

1923 catalog page 254


thank you for the link wds...beaucoup de choses dans ce lien :).
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on October 28, 2013, 01:39:58 AM
Okay, this one is a Type 23 I'm thinking?? Porcelain Number Plate.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on October 28, 2013, 06:14:37 AM
Yes, type 23.  Larger fingerwheel to accommodate the larger center number ring, and mounting screws on the back of the dial.  Nice looking dial.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on October 28, 2013, 02:21:35 PM
I own a grand total of "one" of these early type AE dials. It is on an AE Stairstep Candlestick. None of it has ever been restored and it REALLY needs it.

I decided it was time to figure out what dial type it is and I'm going to guess a type 11 with a porcelain numberplate based on the pictures wds posted on the first page of this topic. It definitely has the thinner fingerstop of the type 11 dial that wds has and it has a porcelain plate. It only has the one spring pileup of the type 11 as well though I wonder if there were different spring pile-ups available for specific uses.

The back of it also looks just like the one wds posted half a dozen posts back.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 01, 2013, 08:00:42 PM
Don't know what the model number is for this phone.  This is the 3rd one for me now.  One is a no-dial, two have dials.  The dial on this one wouldn't spin, so I took it apart, cleaned and adjusted it so it works nice now.  This dial is a little odd - the back seems to be from a model 23 since it has the mounting screws on the back.  From there, everything else seems to be from a very early type 11.  The porcelain number plate does not have the hooks on the back, and under the plate I found the original cardboard number plate.  I'm guessing they removed the glass cover and replaced it with the porcelain.  The porcelain plate does not have the hooks on the back, and instead has a little nub that prevents it from spinning around.  It has a retainer ring to hold it in place, much like the retainer ring on the WE dials.  The is a date written on the back, 6-20-23 which coincides nicely with the type being 23.  Also, the fingerwheel is the smaller type - a hair less than 2 3/4 which is associated with the early dials, not the type 23.  

I'm wondering if this type 23 dial was built up using type 11 parts.  That would explain the round card ring that was on it also.  I replaced the round ring with the mercedes ring since it looks better that way on the smaller fingerwheel.  

First picture is phone as purchased, the 2nd is after I replaced the ring.  
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 01, 2013, 08:07:17 PM
Here's my other one.  I like this one better - has the mercedes dial with the glass cover over the cardboard number plate, and the letter "A" in the receiver arm.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 01, 2013, 08:50:51 PM
That is an interesting one wds. I came close to buying that phone but once again fell asleep at the switch and once I woke up, it was on its way to your place! (Story of my life on ebaY)

Who knows if it was refurbished with some newer parts or was made from various parts right from the beginning. Is the 1923 date stamp on the back ink? Could have been dated at a refurb then? A date on an AE item is a collectors item in itself!

My Type 11 dial also might have a retainer ring to hold the porcelain plate in place as I can't see what is holding it together otherwise. And I ca nsee what looks like a paper numberplate under the porcelain plate though it may be plain paper to provide a softer backing for the porcelain plate. One day I will open it up.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 01, 2013, 09:02:46 PM
Your right - I've never seen a date on an AE product.  Date is in pencil.  2nd picture shows the retainer ring, which is held on place by that piece with 3 arms - which is held in place by the large gear that is held in place by the fingerwheel, which is held in place by the spring on the back of the dial..............
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 01, 2013, 09:46:46 PM
I mis-spoke on the first paragraph.  There aren't mounting screws holes on the back of the dial - this dial uses the adapter ring to mount the dial.  Also the three mounting brackets on the back have one bracket with screw holes, and the two top brackets have the nubs.  That makes this a pure type 11 dial.  The 6-20-23 date on the back must be a refurb date?  That would better explain the porcelain number plate and the round card holder.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 01, 2013, 10:21:53 PM
Yes, my type 11 has one screw and two "nubs". Rather than using 3 screws in the 3 mounting tabs they put the "nubs" on two of the mounting tabs as though they were screws protruding from the tab that slip into the matching screw holes and then a single screw finishes off the installation. So from what you have seen, only the type 11 had that?

All of the earlier Big Strowger 11 digit dials that I have seen have pencil writing on the back as well. 

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 02, 2013, 09:46:39 AM
Yes, I believe the type 11 can be identified by the two nubs and one screw hole.  Later the dial had screw holes in all three brackets.  What I don't know yet is what defines the type 18 dial.  The type 23 is easy to identify with the larger fingerwheel, and the mounting screw holes directly in the back of the dial.  So little information about the Mercedes dial makes it hard to piece together a timeline.  There are also different fingerwheels.  I have 5 different fingerwheels that I've seen on the Mercedes dials.  The first four wheels are all nickel plated.  The last one is the type 23 that always came in black.  First one is an odd one, has the patent on the front - don't know what it's application was.  2nd one has the patent on the front.  The third one no longer has the patent date.  For a while I associated this one with the type 18, but I'm not sure.  The 4th has a blank fingerwheel.  I assume this dial was used on non-ae equipment, much like the WE parts that had the "w" when used on non-bell equipment.  The 5th is the type 23 fingerwheel.  The same in appearance as the 3rd one, but larger in size to properly accommodate the round card holder.  

Also note four different fingerstops in these pictures.  I found five different fingerstops in my pile of Mercedes dials.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 02, 2013, 12:26:42 PM
With all the refurbishing of equipment as well as mid production improvements and changes that went on it is likely difficult to pin down exactly what model dials came with what parts.

How is the Type 23 fingerwheel larger? Is the diameter of this fingerwheel larger than the case of the dial unlike the others?

Are the first 4 FW's pictured flat where as the last one is like the later AE metal FW's that are stamped from thinner metal that is pushed through at the fingerholes to make it seem even thicker and therefore more comfortable against your finger when turning it.

Dave: Since this has pretty much turned into a continuation of the AE Dial Identification discussion, do you mind wds if I add this topic onto that one (merge them)?
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5867.0

I have asked Gary G what early dials he has so we can possibly do some more comparing. If anyone else on the forum has any input or pictures of these early Pre Type 24 dials please let us know what you have.

Thanks for all the pictures and detail Dave. I have never known much at all about this generation of AE dials but am learning.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 02, 2013, 01:54:08 PM
Yes, feel free to merge.  The type 11 fingerwheel is about 2"11/16.  The type 23 fingerwheel is 2 13/16".  While the increase of 1/8" may not seem like much, it allowed for the round card ring to fit without interfering with the finger holes, and also allowed for a larger finger hole.  I can't see any difference in the thickness of the fingerwheel, but maybe I will take some of my dials to work and make a more accurate measurement with a micrometer.  The early 2 1/2" North dial is 2 5/8" across the fingerwheel.  Then north came out with the same dial in a 3" version, then came out with the modern 3" dial.  Kellogg had their early version of the Mercedes, however I believe it was a full 3".  I don't have one to measure - maybe someone with that early dial could confirm the dimensions?  SC did not have an early dial.  
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 02, 2013, 02:01:32 PM
For comparison, the 2 1/2" North, and a 3" North.  
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 02, 2013, 02:07:43 PM
Oops, I didn't think to check if you were on line Dave. I just merged the two topics while you were posting to one of them. Hope I didn't mess you up! Quite amazing that more things don't "Blow Up" on the forum when something like this happens.

What I was thinking re the thickness of the fingerwheels was that some of the early ones were solid metal with fingerholes punched in like some of the NECo & WECo FW's but looking again it looks as though all of the AE FW's have fingerholes pressed in to make thicker sides to the opening giving the impression that the metal is thicker.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on November 08, 2013, 07:38:11 PM
I finally brought my micrometer home and measured several AE dials.

Type 11 - blank finger wheel #1.  2.75" fingerwheel, .472 Fingerhole, .084 thick, 2.86 back o.d.
Type 11 - blank fw #2. 2.75" fw, .463 fingerhole, .086 thick, 2.86 back
Type 11 - inscribed, no patent.  2.73 fw, .465 fingerhole, .082 thick, 2.86 back
Type 23 - 2.83" fw, .492 fingerhole, .082 thick, 2.85 back.
Type 24 - 3.0 fw, .494 fingerhole, .14 thick, 2.999 back.

The type 11's are fairly consistent.  The type 23 has a larger fingerwheel, back is the same as the 11.  
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 08, 2013, 09:56:36 PM
Thanks for the numbers Dave.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: BDM on May 01, 2014, 05:47:39 PM
Gents, can anyone supply any info on the differences of these to supposed AE number plates? Really I wonder if one is older than the other but I understand that question may not be answered so easily. Notice the differences especially with the 1 6 and 9. Plus the font is thicker on the left plate. No markings on the backs of these plates. Both came off AE40 sets and were very dirty. Indicating they had been on these dials for some time.

(http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr233/bdm123456/AEdialplate1_zpsb243a8dd.jpg) (http://s487.photobucket.com/user/bdm123456/media/AEdialplate1_zpsb243a8dd.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on May 03, 2014, 08:54:32 PM
No knowledge here Brian other than the thought that it probably was just a font change. I have never looked at them that close before. Will have to check some more of mine out.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: BDM on May 03, 2014, 11:29:23 PM
Seems like W.E. categorized and recorded just about everything. In comparison, it seems A.E. did the opposite. I know, kind of tough if not impossible to say :o
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: wds on August 21, 2014, 07:07:07 PM
Sunburst sold today - I was high bidder for about 5 minutes.  Long before the final sales price of $1907.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: JorgeAmely on August 21, 2014, 09:06:10 PM
Gents, can anyone supply any info on the differences of these to supposed AE number plates? Really I wonder if one is older than the other but I understand that question may not be answered so easily. Notice the differences especially with the 1 6 and 9. Plus the font is thicker on the left plate. No markings on the backs of these plates. Both came off AE40 sets and were very dirty. Indicating they had been on these dials for some time.

(http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr233/bdm123456/AEdialplate1_zpsb243a8dd.jpg) (http://s487.photobucket.com/user/bdm123456/media/AEdialplate1_zpsb243a8dd.jpg.html)
I have one AE40 and the numbers wheel looks closer to the one pictured on the left, but the upper circle of numeral "8" is a litte bit narrower.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: JorgeAmely on August 21, 2014, 09:10:00 PM
See below ...
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: BDM on August 21, 2014, 09:12:03 PM
Hmmm, interesting
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Slal on November 05, 2014, 09:41:31 PM
This came off an AE type "F" phone & can't find exact match in photos out there.

51 dial or some sort of military variant?

The back has following stamped on it: "0D-4" and "879A"     

Any of those numbers offer a clue exactly when made or if ever refurbished?  Also trying to get estimate of how old phone itself is.

thx

--Bruce 
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Kenton K on November 05, 2014, 09:50:58 PM
I'd say AE24
It has a stamped case and no silencing pawl which makes me think its a 24.


KK
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Slal on November 06, 2014, 10:45:21 AM
Thanks for replies.

I'd read that topic.  Too bad that GTE doc doesn't have photos of 24A36 & 51.

Post by "GG" was very helpful but seeming left out of the discussion is 51 dial without the "A" suffix.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5867.msg70490#msg70490 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5867.msg70490#msg70490)

Based on the logo on the back I'd agree with Kenton, but problem is my "mystery dial" is silent windup.  Also, the dial I have has a base that's either aluminum or its plating prevents a magnet sticking to it.

Does anyone know if pawl lever retrofitted onto 24A36 dials by military?

Meanwhile seller on eBay claims to have a 51 (#311023436915) & it looks almost exactly like mine except for two mysterious cutouts near governor & near "AE" logo.

*Love* to say it's a 24A36 since phone supposed to be out of ship from WW-II, but of course they'd have modernized other things when flight deck was angled for jets around 1952 to 1953.

"51" dial from pre 1954 or 24A36 dial with pawl lever (if such a thing ever existed?) 

thx

--Bruce
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: rdelius on November 06, 2014, 11:24:43 AM
I have seen many dials in navy sets that dated in the 1970s.The dials used the same brass chassis as the type 24 and 24a36 and the same method of attaching the pile ups.These dials sometimes had plastic impulse gears similar to later dials.There was the same pawl assy as on the type 51 dial.There was also a screw holding the return spring that was normally not on civilian dials.That dial on the Ebay auction was most likely for a remote control system for radio equiptment..It is not ww2 vintage but most likely mid-50s up to early 70s based on the goldish finish it would have been greyish then.Note the 24/24a36 type brass chassis,not zinc like the civilian type 51 and 51a dials.The red impulse cam was not on the earlier dials and was plastic by the mid 70s.The cut outs were for a dust cover i beleive. This is not for a telephone unless modified
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: rdelius on November 06, 2014, 08:10:31 PM
The frame? of chassis ? of both AE types 24 and 24a36 were made of brass almost 100% of the time.The 51 and 51a and 52 were zinc .Exceptions were some military or industrial dials which used the brass chassis even though used later type parts.I took down to polish 100s-1000s of these dials while at COT over the 25 years I worked there.This does not include the foreign made or dials used on tp6a sets.The Telephonics dails were zinc ,possibly before AE
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Slal on November 10, 2014, 09:50:12 AM
Looks like the question of that 'silencer' part will remain a mystery then.  One member here was kind enough to e-mail me an AE bulletin on how to service 24A36 dials.  It's dated 1949 and no mention of that part.  It was for civilian dials though.

Anyway, finally got the phone itself disassembled as far as I can for restoration so will be creating topic there.

Thanks for replies and of course very special thanks for nice surprise when checked e-mail the other day.  :) 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: rdelius on November 10, 2014, 10:31:28 AM
type 24 dials had no provision to  lift the ratchet during wind up so they clicked
Type 24A36 dials had a piano wire spring to deaden the noise
Type 51 and later dials had a sliding disc to keep the ratchet from engaging the teeth on the main gear
I would condider the military dial a type 51 or 51A  if using these descriptions.I have seen Phillips (Canada) dials that were of the style of the 24 and 24A36 (old brass frame style) but were silenced in the same manner as a type 51.They could not be side mounted like the Type 24 of 24A36 because the holes in the switch pile up were never drilled
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 10, 2014, 11:47:50 AM
I have now merged Slal's topic here to the larger AE Dial Identification topic. I see a fairly good description of each model type back on Page 1 - Reply 1.

So the "Pawl Quieting" of the 24A36 was just a change in the spring wire material? I assumed that there was some other change in the design as well.
<edit> back to Reply 13 from GG on page 1 he wrote:
24-A-36: has a piece of piano wire over the ratchet pawl. 

I always thought the Pre Type 51 dials had stamped steel cases as the material always looked like steel. Eventually I realized that a magnet wasn't attracted to it so it isn't steel.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Slal on November 11, 2014, 10:33:39 AM
I always thought the Pre Type 51 dials had stamped steel cases as the material always looked like steel. Eventually I realized that a magnet wasn't attracted to it so it isn't steel.
Terry

So did I but doesn't the 24A36 in the AE illustration look like it's die-cast?

I'd also associated hex nuts on bottom with 51 series.

What am I missing here?

thx

--Bruce


 
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on November 11, 2014, 10:50:42 AM
And the spring pile-up isn't removable on that one either.

The AECo diamond has a single line seperating the upper and lower portions.

From what I gave read here trying to learn how to determine which model any particular AE dial is, that one looks like a Type 51 to me.

The AE Dial identification document specifically says that the Type 24 does NOT have a cast type housing and that the Type 51 DOES. The document doesn't mention the Type 24A36 housing (though the table  says No to Die Cast Zink case) which leaves open the possibility that the material used for the case isn't aligned 100% with the model number change. Maybe late production 24A36 dials switched to "Die Cast Zink".

Below is the identification chart and picture from the document.

Terry

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Slal on November 12, 2014, 07:00:50 PM
Yes, GTE clearly states 51's are 'die-cast' w/shunt & pulse springs mounted directly to base or 'chassis', etc.

Maybe that's what a member meant in an e-mail where he also included an attachment.

(paraphrase)  "To add to the confusion..." 

By accident, searching for docs on military phones/dials may have turned up same bulletin (#528) at TCI.

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/1019-ae-bulletin-528-type-24a36-dial-ocr (http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/1019-ae-bulletin-528-type-24a36-dial-ocr)

Has me wondering if possible to tell difference from the back at all. : 0 !

Does anyone have a photo of that 'quieting' spring on pawl? 

I think GTE states spring is on tip while another AE says (paraphrase) "note quieting spring towards the middle of pawl..." 

I like puzzles... ; )

thx

--Bruce
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Jack Ryan on May 10, 2015, 11:43:05 PM
Typically the black die-cast dials are Type 24A36 bit I don't know if that is always the case.

The AE procedures are not always correct when listing information about older dials. Contrary to those documents, late 24A36 dials were cast bodied and Type 51A dials were used in the AE80.

The change between models is not clear from the rear. The introduction of the 24A36 was around the time the company logo changed from the oval to the diamond but some 24A36 dials have oval logos. And some dials have been rebuilt so identification is tricky.

There are a least two different quieting springs used on the 24A36 - the original being a piano wire.

AE used a friction device for full quieting on the Type 51 dial. The Kellogg and some of the Signal Corps versions used a different mechanism.

There are pictures in other threads - most recently about the Kellogg version of the Type 51 dial. (I presume there is a search function)

The Type 51A is identical to the Type 51 except that the spring contacts are bifurcated.

Jack
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Fabius on May 11, 2015, 09:09:04 AM
What about the very first dials used in La Porte Indiana in the first automatic exchange? If memory serves me that exchange was capable of 100 lines and had 96 subscribers at its peak. They were simple make & break keys (like a simple telegraph key) but still a "dial". The building where it was located is still standing.

I did a Google search and I can not find a picture of one of the first dial phones. There is one in the La Porte County museum and I'll get over there to get some pictures and post them.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Jack Ryan on May 11, 2015, 09:13:02 AM
What about the very first dials used in La Porte Indiana in the first automatic exchange? If memory serves me that exchange was capable of 100 lines and had 96 subscribers at its peak. They were simple make & break keys (like a simple telegraph key) but still a "dial". The building where it was located is still standing.

I did a Google search and I can not find a picture of one of the first dial phones. There is one in the La Porte County museum and I'll get over there to get some pictures and post them.

Yes, the first dials were lever operated and there were quite a few variations between that the first Type 24 dial. I thought the discussion was about dials derived from the Type 24.

Jack
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Fabius on May 11, 2015, 04:58:35 PM
One thing that I have never really paid a lot of attention to is the various models of AE Dials.

I know that the earliest AE dial would be the Strowger 10 digit dial that  was then upgraded to the Strowger 11 digit dial. These are the large dials found on Strowger Wooden weall phones and Strowger Pot Belly Sticks. By the way these were dials for 3 wire phones where 3 leads were needed back to the CO to put through a call.

Terry

Nope, nothing was said in the opening post about this thread being limited to type 24. In fact as seen above it starts off mentioning the Strowgers.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Jack Ryan on May 11, 2015, 07:54:34 PM
OK, sorry I didn't follow the thread back that far.

Those early dials are interesting. Amongst other things, they reflect the lack of confidence the engineers had in the ability of the subscribers to operate the dial.

There were never really any 11 digit dials; some of the dials has 11 finger holes but the '0' and the 'operator' hole generated the same number of pulses. The additional hole was provided so that they would not have to explain to the subscribers (and confuse them) that the '0' had two functions; it could be used to contact the operator and it could also be used as part of a subscriber's number.

There was an interlock so that the dial could not operate unless the receiver was lifted. This prevented the subscriber from starting to dial too early. There was also a variation that prevented the subscriber from forcing (speeding) the dial home (attached). This was re-introduced with the Sunburst dial.

The earliest of the rotary dials were not marked '0' - they were marked 'x' instead. It did not seem logical that '0' would generate 10 pulses. I believe the 'x' is a Roman 10.

By the way, these are called "three wire" but they did not actually use three wires; the "third wire" was, in fact, the ground return.

Jack
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: unbeldi on May 11, 2015, 08:44:25 PM
The dial for the AE Strowger three-wire system was in fact a rather different beast than any of the later dials.  It did not generate a linear pulse sequence in the subscriber loop by loop disconnect (LD) signaling.  Instead, the dial pulsed by CLOSING two circuits separately. The two line wires separately operated on the vertical and rotary selectors of the exchange equipment, and the two wires were therefore not called ring and tip, but 'vertical' and 'rotary', each closing a separate circuit via the third connection, the ground.
There was no talk battery on the line during dialing, and the subscriber had no idea what was happening during that time, the phone was acoustically dead.

Here is a circuit diagram for this type phone, which was available as a wood wall phone and the desk stand shown. The dashed box "impulse" shows the two dial pulsing switches.  At the end of the call, the exchange equipment needed to be reset, and the phone therefore had a set of "release" contacts which were activated when the receiver was hung up.

I constructed the diagram based on the illustrations in the book by McMeen & Miller, ca. 1912, which has an excellent discussion of the topic. Without a diagram like this it is almost impossible to deduce the operation of this dial, and the whole telephone in fact, from any of the contemporary drawings.  If you want to understand these telephones, you need THIS diagram, and I have never seen an understandable diagram anywhere else.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: Jack Ryan on May 11, 2015, 08:49:37 PM
Yes, very different indeed. Some have spoken about making an interface so that these dials can be used - I don't know if one was made.

Early phones had no CO talk battery at all - they were local battery. And manual ringing.

Jack
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: markosjal on June 15, 2017, 08:49:59 PM
Anyone here have images of model  80/90 dial mounting. I do not have one in hand and would like to see the mounting assemby for the 52/53 type dials. I am assuming 80 and 90 use same dial mounting.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: AE_Collector on June 16, 2017, 10:06:11 AM
Not a very complete answer but this topic has pictures that show the way the steel bracket mounted to the back of the dial on an AE90 clips onto a stud on each side of the dial mounting frame. The AE80 dial mount is the same. Older versions were similar but had a screw rather than the stud.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14899.0

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
Post by: rdelius on June 16, 2017, 10:16:27 AM
The type 80 and type 90M sets have different dial mounts .The earlier  type 90 with the modified type 80 base might be the same