Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Telephone Troubleshooting and Repair => Topic started by: gands-antiques on January 12, 2012, 11:22:49 PM

Title: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: gands-antiques on January 12, 2012, 11:22:49 PM
I need help wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A subset.

The 202 has 5 wires and I need to connect them to a 685A subset.

The 5 wires coming from the phone are white, green, yellow, red and black but the terminals on the subset are 1, 2, K, L1, L2 & G.

Can someone please tell me the correct way to connect the wires from the 5 wires from the phone to the 85A subset?

I also have a wall module plug/cord but it only has two wires,,,red and green.

Thanks
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 12, 2012, 11:38:01 PM
Here is alink to a diagram in the TCI library:



http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=2138&Itemid=27

Understand that your line cord has different colors than the diagram for the line cord.  Don't assume that the red, green and yellows of your line cord are connected the same as the red, green and yellows in the diagram.  Check them all out from the diagram, and translate accordingly.

Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: gands-antiques on January 12, 2012, 11:46:59 PM
I had already located and viewed the WE schematics on the site you provided but I couldn't figure it out for my subset.

Is there anyway to get a color conversion of the 5 phone wires... white, green, yellow, red and black to the 1, 2, K, L1, L2 & G terminals on the subset..

Thanks a lot!!
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 13, 2012, 12:18:16 AM
I guess I or someone else will need ti talk you through it.  In order to do that, however, I will need to know how each wire of the line cord is connected inside the 202 body.  I could guess, but to be absolutely sure, I will either need you to tell me or take a good photo and post it.

Remember that the 685a subset came out about 30 years after the 202, so the wiring is non- standard.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: gands-antiques on January 13, 2012, 08:35:37 AM
Bill,

Thanks for the welcome.  I really appreciate your help. 

The 5 wires coming from the phone are white, green, yellow, red and black.

The terminals on the subset (when looking at it with the bells away from you are from right to left
are 1, 2, K, L1, L2 & G.
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 13, 2012, 05:40:43 PM
I can further reply tonight when I get off work.  Most of your connections to the subset will be made directly to the network and not to the terminal board, but I can get to that tonight.  That photo is perfect.

I am in the Pacific time zone, and I will be done with dinner at about 7pm.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 13, 2012, 10:01:28 PM
OK, I am home from work and have it all laid out for you.

The 685A subset is a later piece of technology than the 202 was originally connected to, but when connected to this subset, you will get pretty much the same effect of that of a later model 500 set out of the 202.  This "improved" response will probably be undetectable to most people, but it will be better than connecting the 202 to an earlier subset.  The 685A subset uses a 425B network instead of a plain old induction coil and capacitor combo found in earlier subset models.  Due to the difference, a 5th wire is needed to connect the 202 to the 685A subset.  Your phone has a cord with 5 wires, but inside it is not wired quite correctly.  The following changes will get those wires connected to the right places to be able to be connected to the 685A subset.  Note that these changes will not hurt the phone in any way.

In fact, when the Bell System came out with the Continental and Imperial 202 versions in the 1950's, they were often connected to the newer technology subsets such as the 685A.


You will need to move a few wires inside the 202 body:

Unhook the two red wires from the dial “R” terminal and move them both to the spare “R” terminal that is shown in the photo to the right of the dial.  The “R” terminal on the dial will no longer be connected.  The desk stand cord you have is not an original to the phone, and so the red wire is a little short.  Already it is a stretch to get it connected to the R terminal on the dial.  You may need to play around with the routing of the wire to get it to stretch over to that R terminal.

Unhook both the black wires from the “BK” terminal on the dial and connect them together with a small nut and bolt that you can then tape over with electrical tape.  Unfortunately, there are not spare terminals inside the 202 body, so this needs to be done with a small nut and bolt.  Once taped, that will just float around in the phone, so it is important that it be taped well enough not to come in electrical contact with anything else, or noise will occur.

Currently, you have two white wires connected to the dial “W” terminal; one from the handset cord, and one from the desk set cord.  Leave the one of the handset cord connected there, and move the white wire of the desk set cord to the “BK” terminal of the dial.  Now you're done inside the phone body.

Now connect the four wires of the desk set cord to the 685A subset.  

Note that when I talk about the network, I am referring to the square box with the black plastic cover with all the screw terminals on it.  When I talk about the terminal strip, it is the black strip at one end with the 1, 2, K, L1, L2 & G designations:

Red desk set wire to the R terminal on the network
Green desk set wire to the GN terminal on the network
Black desk set wire to the B terminal on the network
White desk set wire to the RR terminal on the network
Yellow desk set wire to L1 on the 685A terminal strip (Not L1 on the network)

The black covered cord with the red and green wires that are connected to L1 and L2 respectively on the terminal strip are the wires that connect to your phone line.  If the other end of this cord does not have a modular plug on it, we will need to discuss how to connect this to your phone line.

Good luck, and please report back with the results, and by all means ask any questions you may have.
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: gands-antiques on January 13, 2012, 10:47:58 PM
Bill,

Thanks a million for all of your excellent instructions. I won't get a chance to do the wiring until Monday because I setup today at an antique show and it will go on all weekend. 

I will be sure and let you know how all of the wiring goes as soon as I can get a chance to try it. 

Thanks again and I really appreciate your help!!

Gary
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 13, 2012, 10:50:42 PM
Cool, Glad to help, and good luck with the show.  You must be in a warmer climate, or the show is indoors (or both).
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: gands-antiques on January 16, 2012, 01:39:56 PM
Bill,

Thanks a million!!  Your instructions were excellent and the phone and subset are working LIKE NEW!!

I  have one more 202 with a F1 receiver, a dial with 4 wires connected to it and a 687A subset that I would really appreciate the same type of wiring instructions if you wouldn't mind.

I'm attaching pictures of the 2nd phone dial area, the 687A subset and the 4 wires that are currently attached to the phone.

Thanks again and I really appreciate it. 

Gary
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: LarryInMichigan on January 16, 2012, 03:15:19 PM
I believe that the 687A is only a ringer, not a subset.  You could probably turn it into a subset by attaching a 425 network to the base (where the capacitor currently is) if the cover will fit over it.

Larry
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: gands-antiques on January 16, 2012, 03:31:01 PM
Thank you Larry.  If it is a ringer only and not a subset, will it ring when the phone is called?  If so what is the difference between a subset and a ringer?

Thanks,
Gary
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 16, 2012, 03:38:41 PM
The ringer only has a ringer and a capacitor that is required in the ringing circuit.

The thing that makes a subset a subset is the induction coil and audio capacitor in addition to the ringer and the ringer capacitor.

The 685A subset on your other phone has the 425 network (That square box with all the terminals on it).  The network contains the induction coil, the audio capacitor, and a few other components to make the phone work properly.

The induction coil and audio capacitor are the key ingredients.  They provide impedance matching to the phone line and isolate the receiver in the handset from being directly connected across the line which can demagnetize the receiver from having direct current across it.

If you don't have another subset, there is a circuit I call a "cheater subset" that consists of a single resistor and a single capacitor that can be assembled in a modular phone connecting block.  All the parts are available at Radio Shack for about $5.00 total.  The connecting block is the most expensive item of the three.

Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: gands-antiques on January 16, 2012, 03:44:53 PM
Thanks Bill.

Has some of the guts been removed from my 687A and if not, why were they made if they don't work

Does this "cheater subset" mount insind my 687A ringer box?

What shouldI ask for if I go to a radio Shanck?

Thanks agin Bill..the other one is working perfectly.

Gary
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: LarryInMichigan on January 16, 2012, 04:08:21 PM
Wouldn't it be possible to mount a spare 425 network to the two open holes in the base of the 687A?  That would seem like the easiest solution.  The 425 network can be used with a four-wire mounting cord as was described somewhere on this forum.  I used one, and it works well.

Larry
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 16, 2012, 04:30:54 PM
To answer Larry's question.... I do believe they used the same back plate, so I would say yes, all you'd have to do is remove the capacitor from the 687 and drop in a 425B network, and you would have a 685A subset.

To answer Gary's question. the 687A ringer is original.  Nothing has been removed.  The only purpose of that box is to serve as a remote ringer, like for instance in a separate room from a phone so that you know there is an incoming call.  It's only function is that of a ringer.  It just happens to be built from many of the same components as the 685A subset.  Western Electric and other phone manufacturers were good at that.

Here is the link to the cheater subset.  Notice that there are two ways of building it.  One is on a terminal strip, and the other way is a much neater version that is installed in a modular terminal block.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2849.msg39770#msg39770
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: gands-antiques on January 16, 2012, 04:31:54 PM
Where do you get a 425 network and how much do they cost?

Thanks,
Gary
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: LarryInMichigan on January 16, 2012, 04:42:33 PM
Where do you get a 425 network and how much do they cost?

Thanks,
Gary

There are millions of them floating around.  I am sure that many forum members have lots of them to spare.  I may have a couple somewhere.

Larry
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: gands-antiques on January 16, 2012, 05:03:38 PM
I am confused....If it will ring when a call is coming in then why can't it just be used as is?

Thanks,
Gary
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 16, 2012, 05:25:28 PM
The subset is not just a ringer.  The ringer is in the box, but the more important part of the phone is the induction coil and capacitor for the voice circuit.  A subset contains both the ringer and the voice circuit.

When the 202 was designed and used in the 1920's and 1930's the coil and capacitors were so large that they had to be located outside of the phone body itself, and thus the use of the subset.  When the 302 came out in 1938, it was a technological breakthrough of sorts because the phone was self contained, as technology allowed them to make the parts smaller.

It has often been said that if you buy just the D1 part of a 202 which is just the phone body, you only have a half a phone.  the other half is in the subset.  The 687 you have is only an extension ringer, and is not a subset.

Sorry if this is confusing.  :)

Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: gands-antiques on January 16, 2012, 06:03:43 PM
Thanks for the explanation.

For future reference, what are the subset model numbers with everything included that I should look for?
I know the 685A that you helped me wire works good.

Thanks,
Gary
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: Phonesrfun on January 16, 2012, 07:01:59 PM
Hi Gary,

The most correct subset for the time period of the 202 would be either a 634A or a 684A.  Then, of course, the 685A which is a subset based on the technology of the 1950's and later which uses 5 wires instead of 4.  A line cord with 4 wires and the 634 or 684 subset is more the norm.

Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: gands-antiques on January 16, 2012, 10:04:29 PM
Thanks Bill.  I will remember these subset models he next time I buy a subset.

I'm attaching another picture of my three subsets. The one on the left is the one that you helped me wire and it is working great. I also have a 687A that needs a 425 network that you told me about and a 684BA that needs the bells.

I know someone who repairs old phones and subsets and he told me he woud fix up these two subsets but he hasn't given me a price yet. He is also going to add the blackplastic phone to wall modular plug wire.

What would you estimate for the cost (labor & material) to add the bells, 425B network and the black modular wires for attaching to the wall ?

Thanks,
Gary

Thanks,
Gary
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: marty on March 16, 2012, 08:37:22 PM
Hi All;
One possible solution is to take the ringer from the middle ringer and combine it with the older subset on the right (in the picture) it is an older subset, but it should work with the ringer you have.. Others in the more know should correct me IF I am wrong about this...
THANK YOU Marty
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: gands-antiques on March 16, 2012, 09:52:06 PM
Marty,

Thanks a lot for your reply...

I ended up getting a set of bells added to the 684BA subset (right subset) and a 425B network added to the 687A subset (center subset) and they are both working fine now. 

Thanks again,
Gary
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: poplar1 on October 16, 2014, 12:49:02 PM
This diagram is like the one Bill linked to in Reply #2, but may be easier to read. It's BSP 502-320-114, Issue 1, Dec., 1971 in the TCI library.
http://telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/2780-502-320-414-i1-service-202b-c-d-hand-telephone-sets-tl
Title: Re: Wiring a 202 with 5 wires to a 685A Subset
Post by: luns on October 02, 2015, 08:28:45 PM
For anybody who might stumble into this thread, there's another closely related thread at http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11465.0 where poplar1 shares two different BSPs for wiring to a 685A. The second one, 502-200-404 shows the same wiring diagram as has been shared in this thread.

However, I prefer the subset wiring in the first BSP in the other thread

211: [NOTE: Can also be used for 202]
BSP Section 502-320-400 Issue 2, January 1971
Service 211-Type Hand Telephone Sets

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/2773-502-320-400-i2-service-211-hand-telephone-sets-tl

In 502-200-404 and 502-320-414, L1 is jumpered to RR, with the BK and Y wires for the hookswitch/DP switch serve as a jumper from L2 to C. Terminal F is left floating.

In the 211 diagram, L2 is jumpered straight to C, and L1 is tied to F. The hookswitch/DP switch then connect from F to RR.

The important difference is the inclusion of terminal F. The 425B/D/E/F/J (but not 425K used for touch tone) network has a capacitor from this terminal, which together with the resistor of the equalizer, forms a snubber network for the dial contacts. This would serve to suppress RF interference, and should also help with the longevity of the dial contacts.

The L61A filter serves a similar purpose, and it may be that the BSPs that bypass F assume the presence of this filter. For desk sets without an L61 (and maybe even those with it), I see no reason not to take advantage of the snubber in the network.