Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Telephone Wiring Diagrams => Automatic Electric Wiring Diagrams => Topic started by: handworn on May 20, 2012, 09:45:02 PM

Title: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on May 20, 2012, 09:45:02 PM
Hi everyone,

I just got interested in early telephones pretty recently when I picked up what proved to be an AE model 1A at an antique store, in fine condition.  Unfortunately it didn't come with a ringer box.  I got an AE ringer box, but I suspect based on my research since then that it's not the correct one for this particular model.  Anyone know the exact original ringer box for it?  But anyway, if I can get these two to work together I'll call it good for the moment.

Can anyone help me figure this out?  From what I've seen on the forums I thought I understood how to connect the ringer box to the wall, with replica cords I got, but I just get a busy signal when I connect it (admittedly without the phone) to the wall and then call myself.  And I don't know how to connect the phone to the ringer box; the diagrams I've seen seem to suggest four cords are needed and the replica cord I got only has three.  And I haven't seen a diagram of where to attach them in the ringer box.

Here are the photos:

(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu27/bellowsburst/DSC_0420.jpg)
(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu27/bellowsburst/DSC_0417.jpg)

Thanks a million!
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: AE_Collector on May 20, 2012, 11:25:48 PM
I can't tell for certain but I think that is just a ringer box, not a subset. You need a subset which will have a ringer as well as an induction coil in it.

AE made a full subset as well as a ringer only in that type of box. The coil would be mounted directly under the terminal strip in the box you have if it is actually a full subset.

That style of box/subset would be appropriate for an AE 1A phone if it is a full subset.

Welcome to the Classic Rotary Forum by the way!

Terry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: stub on May 21, 2012, 01:17:23 AM
handworn,
                Welcome to the CRPF.  You have , what looks like, the 4 leaf hookswitch version of this phone. The 32 Compact Type subset is what my catalog said to use with it. As Terry stated , you need to have the induction coil in the subset.
                 Hope this helps . ( click on the pics and they will enlarge) stub
 
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: stub on May 21, 2012, 01:20:57 AM
handworn ,
                  Remove the cloth cord from the ringer box ( BR/ white , BR/red , BR/black ) and it should ring , as wired, when you call your number.  stub
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: handworn on May 21, 2012, 10:38:00 AM
Thanks a lot!  I don't know much yet about all these things or how these work, how to test components, et cetera.  What would an AE induction coil of that era look like?  Is there a book I should read that would help? 

Thanks again!

I can't tell for certain but I think that is just a ringer box, not a subset. You need a subset which will have a ringer as well as an induction coil in it.

AE made a full subset as well as a ringer only in that type of box. The coil would be mounted directly under the terminal strip in the box you have if it is actually a full subset.

That style of box/subset would be appropriate for an AE 1A phone if it is a full subset.

Welcome to the Classic Rotary Forum by the way!

Terry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: handworn on May 21, 2012, 10:44:44 AM
Stub, it says you're a "Hero Member" and you sure are.  Thanks a million!  If I manage to find a 32 ringer box I'll try to post actual photos.  I assume the one I have is the standard size, which with your information gives me an idea of the compact's size.

Is eBay, where my ringer box came from, the best place to move it along?  Since it's not correct for this phone I might as well.

handworn,
                Welcome to the CRPF.  You have , what looks like, the 4 leaf hookswitch version of this phone. The 32 Compact Type subset is what my catalog said to use with it. As Terry stated , you need to have the induction coil in the subset.
                Here is the diagram for this phone with the correct 32 ringer box and the only pic of the ringer box I have. Hope this helps . ( click on the pics and they will enlarge) stub
 
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: AE_Collector on May 21, 2012, 03:37:43 PM
From the outside they look the same. You need to see pictures of the inside to know what it is for sure.

First picture is the AE 32 Ringer (Only).

Second, Third & Forth pictures are the AE 32 Complete Subset.

The pictures that I have posted of the complete subset have the older style ringer and Induction Coil in them where as many out there will have the newer (smaller) ringer in them like my first picture and your ringer.

Older type ringer or new ringer makes no difference. Keep in mind though that many of these subsets and ringer boxes may not have SL (Straight Line) ringers in them but will have frequency ringers for party lines in them so you might get a subset that won't ring! Look for the "SL" marked on the ringer.

Terry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: handworn on May 21, 2012, 04:09:01 PM
Thanks, Terry.  Any recommendations on where I might look for one, besides eBay?

Matt
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: AE_Collector on June 17, 2012, 02:13:56 PM
Matt:

Sorry but I still haven't mailed you the 32 subset. I got worried that I still wasn't sending you the exact subset that you need as there seem to be many variations. I contacted Stub who looked through some of his catalogs and confirmed that there are variations so we need to look at this closer but I haven't had the time this past week.

I think the subset that I posted pictures of above is the exact one I was planning on sending to you. I think that the drawing in it indicated a 4 conductor cord was needed. How many leads are there in your cord from phone to subset?

Stub: What version of 1A do you think Matt has?

Terry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: LarryInMichigan on June 17, 2012, 02:54:38 PM
I think that it is important here to check whether or not the handset has the buikt-in inductor coil.  The subset will depend on that.

Larry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: AE_Collector on June 17, 2012, 03:19:15 PM
I don't think that it would need a subset if it had the built in induction coil unless you wanted a ringer box with it. But I think there may be sidetone or antisidetone versions. Stub scanned a bunch of catalog info and emailed it to me (thanks again Ken!) but I haven't had time to really go through it all yet. Maybe I'll try to post a bucnh of it into this discussion.

Terry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: LarryInMichigan on June 17, 2012, 03:35:13 PM
It would still need a condenser which I would expect would be in the subset.

Larry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: AE_Collector on June 17, 2012, 04:17:05 PM
We will have to wait to see what Stub has to say but I sort of thought that the sets with induction coil receivers were primarily for use on in house PAX systems where the phone wasn't miles away from a CO and therefore I didn't think that a condensor was needed other than one for the ringer. But, I really don't know much at all about this sort of stuff...

Terry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: handworn on June 17, 2012, 11:28:10 PM
Hi Terry,

There are 3 cords in the cord that I got for phone-to-subset, and four in the subset-to-wall, though according to another thread here you only need two for that connection-- the others are redundant.  You're probably right about the other, though-- I probably need a four-line cord for phone-to-subset.  Don't know where to get it, though.

Matt
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: TelePlay on June 18, 2012, 12:15:22 AM
A quick fix, and only temporary if you wanted to find original cords later, would be to use the 4 conductor line cord, which looks like Silver Satin line cord, between the desk set and the subset and the 3 conductor (looks like cloth) as the line cord.

Wire is wire.  ;)

You can find cords/wire on eBay if you know what you need and wait for it to come up for auction or buy it from Old Phone Works

http://tinyurl.com/c3zuyth

or other places that sell old telephone stuff.
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: stub on June 18, 2012, 01:08:17 AM
         The AE Catalog 4055, says that all central battery dial monophones were furnished as  anti-sidetone booster sets, now if handworns' phone has 3 wires on  back the receiver end it is the induction coil receiver version and is called a Type 11-A . The type 11-A can be used with any ringer box that has the 1mfd. or 2 mfd. capacitor ( condenser). Some people wanted new phones  and didn't want to buy new ringer boxes, that is when they put the induction-coil receiver to work. They could use the new1-A with their old ringers. ( 3 cond. cord for induction coil receiver and 4 cond. cord for seperate induction coil  to the subset.)
         The same catalog says that the Type 1-A desk deskset requires a ringer box with a special circuit. I would assume the special circuit would be the addition of the induction coil to the ringer box thus making it a subset. You could get a metal box( type 21 style ) with induction coil # D-281901-A  or use the Compact type 32 Ringer box with the induction coil in it..
          The 4055-A Catalog said you could get the Compact Type 32  Ringer box with whatever you wanted in it-" Space is provided for ringer, induction coil, and 2 condensers".  So I guess either types would be correct , metal or plastic. Hope this helps.  stub
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: AE_Collector on June 18, 2012, 02:02:10 AM
Hi Stub:

I had in my mind that for anti sidetone it was a 5 conductor cord from phone to subset and sidetone only needed 4 conductors. Am I one conductor too many in each of those scenarios?

I looked at the drawing inside the cover of that 32 subset (reply #6, pic 2, 3 & 4) and it mentioned 4 conductor cord to tel set which made me think sidetone. Hopefully I am wrong (yet again!) and 4 conductor means anti sidetone and all will be well. And yes the ringer is a SL. You should hear it ring!!

What else can he do to confirm tha the has a 1A and not an 11A? A picture inside the receiver would do it, right? Does Handworn need to check the switch hook contacts or would a count of the leads coming into the base from the hook switch pretty much tell the story?

Of course Handworn will need a 4 conductor cord rather than the three conductor but he can improvise until he can purchase the correct cord.

Thanks for the help Ken,

Terry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: stub on June 18, 2012, 02:27:48 AM
Terry,
          If you use a 302 based subset it will have 5 conductors to the subset, 4 or 5 leaf hookswitch.
 My concern is the 2 caps. in your subset. I was thinking that one was for the frequency ringer and the other for metallic or ground ringing. I can't find anything yet to help me figure it out ???
           Here's a pic of the induction-coil receiver . It is the same as the 32A14. I don't think he has it because I didn't see the 205 ohm wire wound resistor in the base of his phone.  At this point I am confused ???.   stub
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: kleenax on June 18, 2012, 05:27:17 PM
Here's the AE Bulletin No. 1015, Jan. 1, 1929.   stub

Hey guys;

I am coming into this late, but I don't think you will find a dial on an 11A (induction coil in handset) model.

Anyway, I have coils (original) if the original poster of this thread simply wants to "slap" a correct coil into his ringer box. POOF; it would then be a correct subset. For a 302 (101 induction coil type) subset, you can either use 4 OR 5-wire "deskset cord" (cord from deskset to subset). There are wiring schematics on the TCI Library website for guidance.
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: stub on June 18, 2012, 06:17:08 PM
 AE Catalog 4055, pg. 6.   ;D     stub
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: poplar1 on June 18, 2012, 06:51:59 PM
I'll admit to being totally confused: the photos of catalog pages show 7006 and 7007 subsets instead of 32, and refer to desk stands 103 and complete phone 102 instead of 1A.
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: AE_Collector on June 18, 2012, 07:51:57 PM
In Canada, well in BC at least, we always called the 1A sets "1003" sets. Then I saw lists in an AE Catalog that showed the 1003 to be a model 1, version 003 which was something along the lines of being equipped with a dial and something else about the configuration. I think we called the larger black steel subsets 7007's here as well.

AE seems to have had so many different numbering schemes for things that it is hard to keep anything straight.

I'm putting Stub in charge of sorting everything to do with AE numbering out and then reporting back to us once he gets to the bottom of it all! If you have any time left then Stub, figure out how we can date AE stuff.....

Terry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: stub on June 18, 2012, 08:24:29 PM
 poplar1 ,
               Don't worry, I have the catalogs and I'm confused as well. :o
               I have my 1A  ( 4 leaf hookswitch)hooked up to a SC 425 E network 5 cond. cord and it works fine , just hide the network in the box. After all this I think I'll just display mine like it is. What ever you get I'll help with wiring diagrams and there are plenty at the TCI Library.

Terry-  the only dates I have are on the catalogs( date printed). You know how dates and AE got along ;D
           You are the man putting together info on AE, I just have the catalogs for the wiring diagrams cause I can't remember anything unless it is written down. ;D
  kleenax -  I didn't think there was a dial on the 11A either till I read about it. If I run across a 32 ringer box I'll keep you in mind. thanks,  stub
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: handworn on June 26, 2012, 08:11:56 PM
Stub asked whether there were four wires, as it appeared, coming out of the hookswitch tube.  This, for whatever it's worth, is the answer:

"Actually there appear to be 5 wires coming out of that place (assuming I understand correctly which location we're talking about).  One goes to attachment #1 and shares that attachment with another wire that vanishes into the large cloth wire that leads to the handset.  One goes to attachment #2.  (Nothing goes to attachment #3)  One shares attachment #4 with a wire that goes to the mechanism under the dial.  One goes to the other side of the mechanism under the dial.  And the last of the five wires goes to #7."

I have to say, the whole thing looks pretty untouched since it was new.  Original wires and all.  If people want detailed photos of where things go or a diagram of what I see, I'll try to oblige.  Thanks for everything!
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: AE_Collector on June 26, 2012, 09:31:50 PM
Have you taken the plate off of the top of the cradle to take a look at the hookswitch contacts? Carefully unscrew the large diameter nut around the plunger so you can lift the cover plate off. If you can post a close up picture of the contacts that would be great!

Stub: Sounds like a 5 contact hookswitch??

Terry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: stub on June 26, 2012, 10:24:25 PM
Go here to the TCI library  -         http://tinyurl.com/7nfqash
 and scroll down to( I think the 14 th post)-  AE 1A Monophone Desk Set, 1003 Tl
                                                     AE 1A Monophone Desk Set, 1003 Monophone and 32 Subset.
 I think I got the right one this time , assuming it is a 5 contact hookswitch.  stub

Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: AE_Collector on June 26, 2012, 10:43:05 PM
Yes Stub, I would say THAT IS IT! As you say, for a 1A with 5 point hookswitch and a COmpact 32 subset with two condensors. And it needs a 4 wire cord from subset to telset which is what I noted on the subset I was looking at. It has 2 condensors as well. Since condensors are prone to "going bad", has anyone encountered this type of rectangular metal cased AE condensors that were bad?

Many thanks for the hours you put into researching this Stub. WHat you need to do now is start a new thread titled AE 1A telset connections to AE Compact 32 Subset and post that circuit diagram along with discussion about 5 contact switchooks etc. Then I can "sticky" it.

So I think I have the correct subset for you Handworn.

Terry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: AE_Collector on June 26, 2012, 10:48:06 PM
Then I thought I would just cut and paste the schematic in here like a picture but....HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

Terry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: stub on June 27, 2012, 12:59:34 AM
Terry,
           Sorry , I had to find batteries ;D  Yes on the capacitors going bad . On Briny's 40 no ring post ,I had a 4 mfd. / .08 mfd @ 500 V D C one side went bad .08mfd.

  Put pic where you want it ;D  stub      ( use camera) :o    
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: AE_Collector on June 27, 2012, 01:16:11 AM
Thanks Stub. Tuned up the title and sticky'd it.

Terry
Title: Re: wiring for Automatic Electric 1A
Post by: handworn on June 27, 2012, 11:05:41 AM
I'm not sure how to unscrew the nut; it's flush with the plastic.  There are what look like two square openings which could perhaps be used to unscrew it with needlenose pliers, but I'm not sure.

Glad we seem to think your subset would work with my phone.  Thanks!


Have you taken the plate off of the top of the cradle to take a look at the hookswitch contacts? Carefully unscrew the large diameter nut around the plunger so you can lift the cover plate off. If you can post a close up picture of the contacts that would be great!

Stub: Sounds like a 5 contact hookswitch??

Terry
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: AE_Collector on June 27, 2012, 07:54:05 PM
You need a "Monophone Tool"! Without that, as you say needlenose pliers will work but very careully so you don't scratch anything up. You probably don't need to worry about it now though if it is too difficult to sort out.

Terry
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: AE_Collector on July 18, 2012, 12:26:40 AM
Hi Matt:

Wondering how the 32 subset I sent you is getting along with your AE 1A set? Do you have them hooked up and working?

Terry
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on July 21, 2012, 05:48:47 PM
Okay.  AE_Collector's ringer box arrived in good order, and after some consultation I sat down with temporary wiring to hook everything up and see if it worked.

It didn't.  Busy signal.  Hmm.  I examined the diagram (the one some kind soul posted earlier in this discussion) closely, tracing where each wire went and was supposed to go according to the diagram.  It appears to me as though the phone itself was rewired according to some odd logic I couldn't follow.

Here are photos:

(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu27/bellowsburst/Phoneinnardsexplained.jpg)
(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu27/bellowsburst/Subsetinnardsexplained.jpg)

#1 in the phone is supposed to have two wires, one that goes to the switch (it does) and one to the ringer box (which I added).  Someone connected to it a wire that goes to the handset.

#2 in the phone is OK-- it has one to the switch as it's supposed to and one I added to the ringer box.

#3 in the phone is supposed to have two wires, to the switch and to the ringer box, but someone removed the screw entirely.  I supplied a screw and attached the new one to the ringer box, but the switch one is not there currently.

#4 in the phone should and does have one to the dial and one I added to the ringer box, but it should not have one to the switch.  Yet it does.

#5 in the phone has nothing connected but the cloth outer wrapping of the cord to the handset, I suppose to take the tension off those wires and make them last longer.  The diagram shows no connections that go there.

#6 in the phone is as it should be, with a wire to the handset and one to the dial.

#7 in the phone has only a wire to the switch; it should have wires to the dial and handset, too.  Oddly enough, the connection at the dial that #7 should connect to is taken up by a wire directly from there to the handset.

#8 in the phone has a wire to the dial as it should, and one to the handset too, but should also have one to the switch and doesn't have it.

So I could change the extra switch wire on #4 to #3 (or #8) and change the extra handset wire from #1 to #7, but that leaves the missing dial wire and missing switch wire, and the extra, mysterious wire from the dial to the switch.  There are supposed to be 5 wires coming from the switch, but there are only four, so supplying one would return it to original configuration, but what exactly was someone trying to accomplish with this rejiggering?  Any ideas?

Also-- is my connection of L1 and L2, from the ringer box to the wall plug, OK?  As I said, I saw on another discussion here that someone said the ground was not necessary, but I'm unsure of myself.

Also-- AE_Collector said I should use a Monophone Tool to unscrew the switch assembly.  Where can I get one?

Thanks a million!

Matt
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: AE_Collector on July 21, 2012, 08:23:03 PM
Hi Matt:

I will have to study this for awhile (and hope that Stub sorts it all out before I have to) but a couple of quick comments.

Monophone Tools are very difficult to find. The Monophone tools would remove the cover plate from the switch hook so we can see how many contacts are in there. Just carefully use a pair of needle nose pliers to turn the nut around the plunger button and remove the cover plate.

Ground is not required. Worst case is that a wire has to be moved in the subset to make it ring on a private line without the ground. Ground isn't needed for anything else.

Terry
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on July 21, 2012, 10:31:36 PM
 Matt,
         Try breaking this up into two projects. 1st , disconnect the phone from the subset. Now on the subset ,take a jumper wire and put it on the grd side of connector base and hook it to the L 1 next to it. Hook up line in wires to L1 and L2 and dial your number from cell. Don't touch either line in or ringer wires while ringing ,it will BITE, AC voltage!! Did it ring ? That just bridged the ringer and it should work. The diagram wants you to go back thru the hookswitch, maybe later if we have to.
         Here is the monophone tool.   I used the needlenose pliers for years, very carefully!!stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: AE_Collector on July 21, 2012, 10:54:29 PM
I think that I hooked the subset to L1 & L2 and it rang VERY WELL before I mailed it off. That was all I did though. Need to go back a page or two in this thread to re-read 4 and 5 wires from switch hook though.

Terry
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on July 22, 2012, 12:09:00 AM
These phones were wired a lot of different ways depending on the type of subset and the number of hookswitch wires or contacts.  Need to identify the hookswitch wires and location. If the phone were mine , I would start all over after I traced out the hookswitch wires and see if they were connected right. Yeph, one wire at a time.
        My AE 1A is wired for 4 hookswitch wires and won't be any use here.
        The note on the diagram for individual ringing has you to move the green ringer wire to #10 on the induction coil and that removes the ring capacitor labled B and grd from the circuit completely. Hence the reason for the two types one with 1 cap.( Individual ring) and with two capacitors (Party 2 and Party 1 ringing).  Sorry I couldn't be of more help.  stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on July 22, 2012, 12:26:53 AM
Here's the 5 contact hookswitch and wire connection in the phone base. The color code is off on the last three of these wires but they are in order as per diagram. Hope this helps.   stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on July 22, 2012, 11:47:25 AM
Hi Stub,

I thought I had the line in wires to L1 and L2 already (the green and red ones in the photo-- does it matter which goes to which?).  And I wasn't quite sure what you meant by "take a jumper wire and put it on the grd side of connector base and hook it to the L 1 next to it," so I did my best-- is this photo what you meant?

Thanks,

Matt

(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu27/bellowsburst/subset2.jpg)
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on July 22, 2012, 03:29:51 PM
Hmm.  Well, I got the subset ringing okay.  And after taking apart the switch and inspecting which wires were going to which connection numbers, I rewired the telephone as per the diagram.  I also opened up the handset and saw which wires were going where.  The only thing I did with that was to take the handset wire that was, strangely, connected to #1 and connect it to #7 as it should have been, 'cause the others were correctly going to #6 and #8.

And it's closer to working, at least.  When I call myself, the ringer box rings (I took that bridging wire off, of course) and removing the phone from the cradle, triggering the switch, does cut off the ringing.  But there's no connection at the handset, and no dial tone after pushing the switch down and letting it back up again.  I tried dialing, and could hear the dial tone just for a second while dialing, and could hear a clicking in the earpiece when dialing according to the length of the dial's rotation.  But at the end of the dialed number, nothing.  So now I'm mystified and am not sure what else to try.

The handset seems to be working properly, since I'm hearing anything at all, and it looks like it's correctly wired per the diagram.  Here's a photo of the inside of the sending end.

(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu27/bellowsburst/handset.jpg)
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: LarryInMichigan on July 22, 2012, 04:21:35 PM
Have you verified that the shunting contacts on the dial are open when the dial is in the rest position?  It sounds like the receiver might be shunted when it should not be.

Larry
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on July 22, 2012, 10:09:56 PM
Handworn,        
                 You are missing the terminal link on your dial. You can use a small piece of wire inplace of it , shown in pic. This will help . We can go back to the ringer later if needed. stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: LarryInMichigan on July 22, 2012, 10:51:34 PM
Stub, that's a good catch.  I thought that something looked amiss about the dial, but I couldn't see it well enough to notice that the bridge part was missing.  The lack of that part would not explain the symptoms described though.

Larry
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on July 23, 2012, 12:10:07 AM
Larry and Terry,
               I saw the missing part on the dial but I missed where Handworn said it was 4 instead of 5 hookswitch wires.
Handworn,
               I went back and reread your reply on the number of hookswitch wires 4 not 5 right ? Which hookswitch do you have   A - 001 or  B - 003  ?
               Check your PM. stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on July 28, 2012, 11:06:50 AM
Hey all,

It turns out I was wrong-- I have 5 hookswitch wires, not 4.

How do I tell what number hookswitch I have?  I don't remember seeing a label on it.

I attached a piece of wire as a replacement terminal link, but it didn't solve the problem completely.  I still only have dial tone when turning the dial slightly, which makes me think there's a connection there that's made only when dialing which should be connected constantly.  Calling in works, but again only when the dial is turned slightly.  That is, I call, it rings, I pick up the handset and hear nothing, I turn the dial and hold it turned and instantly I hear the connection to my cellphone, which again goes dead when I let the dial go back (though the call is still active).  Is there something to adjust in the dial?
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: HarrySmith on July 28, 2012, 02:19:25 PM
Sounds like the contacts on the back of the dial are not working properly or it is not connected to the hookswitych properly. Can you get a clear closeup picture of the contacts both in park position and with the dial moved?
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on July 28, 2012, 05:05:34 PM
Handworn,
                The pic of your dial looks ok. The fact that you hear when you turn the dial indicates it is working now.  Take a small piece of paper and clean the contacts with just the paper. Pull it thru the contacts like in the pic. If this doesn't work you will have to bend the 1st contact (far left in pic) to the right putting more pressure on the 2nd contact . (To enlarge pic, left click in pic)  Don't bend it too much as the 1st contact will need to open and close as the cam rotates when number is dialed.
                That was very nice of Terry to send you a subset up front !    stub
                
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 01, 2012, 10:58:43 AM
About Terry's generosity, I completely agree, stub, especially since I haven't been a member here very long.  I'll be sending him payment for the subset soon.
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 01, 2012, 10:59:22 AM
Oh, and by the way, stub, thanks for your advice too!  I'll try that.
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 01, 2012, 11:22:42 AM
Stub,

Putting a piece of paper through there did clean it some-- there was schmutz on the paper every time-- but it didn't solve the problem.  Would pulling the paper trick with fine-grit sandpaper be better?  And though I could bend the first contact (I haven't yet), it seems to contact the second pretty well already.  Can you explain theoretically what is supposed to happen here?

Thanks,

Matt
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: poplar1 on August 01, 2012, 01:26:12 PM
You could also connect the two wires that are on the left (looking at the back of the dial) together temporarily just to see if you have dial tone; the contacts they connect to should have continuity except when they open up for the number of times corresponding to the number dialed. If you don't have dial tone with the wires touching, then cleaning the contacts won't solve the problem.
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 01, 2012, 01:38:54 PM
handworn,
                Connect the 2 contacts with a jumper wire like David said. You may still have a hookswitch wire miss placed yet. When you pick up the handset you should have dial tone with the jumper wire on those 2 contacts. When the dial is at rest or park the 1st contact is parked away from the cam. When you turn the dial just alittle it will drop down to the cam and when released it will pluse up and down as the cam moves it .  Check your PMs.  stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 03, 2012, 01:11:03 AM
Matt,
         Verify that the hookswitch wires are correct . Starting at the top of my 5 contact hookswitch as # 1 and work down .   Top  1st contact goes to phone base # 8
                                           2nd "                                     " # 2
                                           3rd "                                      " # 1
                                           4th "                                      " # 3
                                           5th "                                      " # 7
 In reply # 43, is the last contact on the right side of the dial at rest or park, OPEN like mine? That's what Harrysmith, Larry was talking about the receiver being shunted when it's not supposed to be. If wires are wrong it could be completing the circuit as your slightly turn the dial and the shunt springs could be suppling power to the receiver instead of shorting out the handset during dialing.
                                                        Your closer, don't give up, we will get it .      stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 03, 2012, 11:36:17 AM
Hi Stub,

I was pretty careful about which wires go where on the switch, making them conform to the diagram.  I'll try again if need be.  Anyway, I just tried the connect-the-two-contacts-with-a-wire thing, while holding the handset to my ear, and nothing happened.  What did happen (I have no idea if it was caused by connecting the contacts) was that the line started giving me that razzing, repeating sound that happens if the switch is open too long-- if the handset is off the cradle too long-- and I could actually hear it oh-so-faintly even with the dial in at-rest position.  (When I turned the dial slightly, of course, it jumped up to full volume.)

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Matt
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 03, 2012, 11:40:54 AM
Matt,
        When you jumped the 2 contacts on the dial you should have gotten dial tone. There has to be a wire in the wrong place somewhere. Did you check your messages?    stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 03, 2012, 11:43:56 AM
Matt,
        Try swapping the red and the orange handset wires  orange 7  and red 8   and see if handset volume and dial tone are there. I couldn't tell the colors apart from here.   stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 03, 2012, 04:43:52 PM
Do you mean swapping the wire that goes from the handset to 7 swapped with the wire that goes from the handset to 8?


Matt,
        Try swapping the red and the orange handset wires  orange 7  and red 8   and see if handset volume and dial tone are there. I couldn't tell the colors apart from here.   stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 03, 2012, 11:06:06 PM
Matt,
          Yes.  stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 04, 2012, 12:40:16 PM
It didn't fix it; there was no dialtone at all in that case, even with the dial turned a little.  I would think it wouldn't be anything to do with the connection to the handset, if turning the dial makes the connection properly.
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 04, 2012, 07:59:07 PM
Matt,
         O K , back to the dial then. On yours I see that the shunt springs are in a different sequence than mine in picture. On my dial all shunt contacts are open until you move the dial. When the dial is rotated all the shunt contacts are closed which places separate shunts around the transmitter and the receiver during dialing to stop the loud pops of the impluse contacts making and breaking. I haven't seen this type of arrangement before . This is the only thing I can see that might cause your problem as Harry and Larry suggested.  Picture shows different types of dial spring arrangements. Your dial looks like a D-730535-A which would be used for different wiring  subsets. This might be the reason for strange wiring when you got the phone .
           After all the work you have done, I think you can take it apart and rearrange it to work IF the brass stem is long enought to activate the contacts. Yes, move the middle contact ,with stem , to the outside. Don't break off the ceramic end . I think it will work. If not you will need another dial or the right set of contacts.  Hope this cures your problem ;D
                                                          stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: AE_Collector on August 05, 2012, 12:31:45 PM
Stub:

The dial picture you posted is Matt's Dial or a different "normal" dial? If Matt's dial is an "odd one" maybe that helps explain the bridging strap that was missing on Matt's dial initially.

Kudo's to BOTH of you for hanging in there with this project. Stub for spending countless hours researching, taking pictures and posting pictures and scans for Matt (and many other people on this list), and he does all of this on Dial Up Internet access. And to Matt for not giving up and/or disappearing from here in the middle of this project.  I have seen others asking for help here throw in the towel way too soon never to be heard from again.

Terry
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 05, 2012, 11:11:20 PM
Terry,
         The dial pic above is mine for reference , Matt's dial is on the 1st page.
          I believe if we can get those shunt springs back in the way my ( pic posted) dial is, that this baby will be fixed. If we have to , he can send it to me and it will work, one way or another!!!
           I just wished we could talk on the phone instead of all the typing :'(    stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: LarryInMichigan on August 06, 2012, 08:49:28 AM
I just took a close look at the back of the dial in first picture in this thread, and I am about 99.8% convinced that someone dismantled the shunt spring stack and put it back together in the wrong order.  I have the identical dial on my desk next to me now, and I can see how that could happen.  It should be a very quick and simple fix.

Larry
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: poplar1 on August 06, 2012, 09:01:40 AM
In any case, if the phone is wired for the correct dial (and not the dial as currently misconstructed), then the wires on the right side in the picture (where the 3 contacts are) can be safely removed and isolated while testing---they should make (connect together) only while the dial is operating.

The only difference is the loud pops in your ear while dialing so you don't want to hold the receiver near your ear. If you still don't have dial tone (and the pulsing contacts on the other side are making contact), then, again, it is not the dial that is the problem.

OR---since there is nothing on the 3rd terminal from the left, you could move the wire on  the far right to this terminal since 3 and 4 appear to be open except (I assume) when dialing.
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 06, 2012, 11:42:48 PM
Matt,
       Does your phone have a wiring label on the base cover? Could you post a pic of the base #'s and diagram? It would be very interesting to try to figure out how this unit was wired and what designation # AE gave to it. 8)
       Here's what I found out about your dial-  AE Bulletin No. 1015 - Jan. 1, 1929 - pg. 28 - my pic # 004 calls it a D-730343-A on the type 24 dial . That would explain the missing link and the strange wiring . This is a real dial spring arrangement and not home made.
       In AE Catalog 4055 - June 25,1934 - pg 28 they changed the number to  D- 730535-A on the 24 type dial.
       In AE Catalog 4055-A - June  1937 - pg 32 they changed the numbers again to - AK-26 on the 24A36 dial and the rest of my info call it a AK-26 . I've never seen this arangement before.
        Terry this would be a nice one to start a AE Phone Code Survey on !!!!  Again, any other information would be greatly apprecitated!    stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 07, 2012, 12:46:29 PM
Hi Stub,

Yes, there's a label, though partial.  Here's a photo and a closeup photo of the dial spring assembly.  I haven't removed it so I don't know if there's a model number on it.  As you can see there's an oval reading "A.E. Inc. / Type 24 / Made in U.S.A." on the back of the dial to the right of the spring assembly.

(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu27/bellowsburst/DSC_0257.jpg)

(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu27/bellowsburst/DSC_0262.jpg)

I haven't called you because you're home so late.  If you want to try it some other time of day let me know, although I'll be leaving for about ten days' vacation this Friday.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 07, 2012, 02:15:50 PM
Handworn,
                DON"T CHANGE your springs , the stem is too short to work!! You will need a new set with the stem that is long enough to operate the contacts!!!!!!! You can change the middle contact out with a longer stem one. Let me see if I can find one in some of the old dials I have.
                You are just about done!!!!  stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 07, 2012, 04:30:42 PM
Well, I wasn't going to mess with the springs without any idea what I was doing.  What's the stem, and why is it too short to work?  I don't know enough about how these things are supposed to work to understand.

Handworn,
                DON"T CHANGE your springs , the stem is too short to work!! You will need a new set with the stem that is long enough to operate the contacts!!!!!!! You can change the middle contact out with a longer stem one. Let me see if I can find one in some of the old dials I have.
                You are just about done!!!!  stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 07, 2012, 07:25:32 PM
 Matt,
         Try this as a last resort, place a piece of paper in between the last contact on the right of your dial, like mine in pic. and leave it there and call again and see if it will work without moving the dial. If it is wired right it should work. Let me know.  Your diagram is correct, and looks easier to use than the one I posted , use it to double check your wiring if it doesn't work. The subset wires go- phone 1 to induction coil 1 ,phone 2 to induction coil 2 , 3 to 3, 4 to 4. BTW I'm home most of the time if you want to call. 7am to 10 pm Central Time    
        Here's a pic of the Dial Spring Assembly that you need with the long stem .The one on yours is too short. On your dial ,Type 24 and the  24A36's, the sping assembly with come off with 2 screws and you can replace it as a whole unit(pic 003- impluse and shunt). That would be the easiest . Does the last contact on the right of your dial have a hole in it in line with the brass stem on the middle contact?
        The dials I have are for the 182's and 192's and won't work to good (shape and style are different).  
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 07, 2012, 08:27:23 PM
Hi Ken,

It did work.  I got ringtone at the normal volume without turning the dial.  (A cool moment!)

I assume that your screwdriver in the picture is pointing to the stem?  Of course I can't tell for certain, but mine looks about as long as it should be according to the picture.  Also, in your picture, it looks as if the stem and the central golden thing are not supposed to be touching.  In mine they are touching when it's at rest, though when the dial is turning the central thing of course turns away from the stem.

I'd rather not replace the entire thing if I can avoid it, for the same quirky reasons I had for wanting the original subset to work without the workaround that someone mentioned.
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 07, 2012, 08:30:32 PM
I also notice that in yours, the element at the far left with the squiggle at the bottom is touching the irregularly shaped thing at the bottom that spins only when you release the dial after having turned it.  On mine it's not touching when at rest.  Significant?
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 07, 2012, 08:31:49 PM
Matt,
         Attach that piece of paper on the dial so it won't fall off and try to dial your cell from this phone and see if it will connect.    stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 07, 2012, 08:44:03 PM
Matt,
          Did it dial out correctly?  You can call me now if you like and we can talk about  the rest of the fix.   You will get the computer answering machine and I will call you back because I only have this one line.  stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 07, 2012, 09:05:31 PM
Yes, it connected.

Matt,
         Attach that piece of paper on the dial so it won't fall off and try to dial your cell from this phone and see if it will connect.    stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on August 07, 2012, 09:10:04 PM
Matt,
        Did you hear any loud pops in the receiver while you were dialing?
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 08, 2012, 12:16:23 AM
Yes, I did.  I didn't know if that was normal or not.
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: poplar1 on August 08, 2012, 12:18:33 AM
Did you try moving the wire from the far right dial terminal to the one that currently does not have anything connected?
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on August 08, 2012, 11:20:14 AM
I don't remember that having been suggested before.  Do you mean the middle terminal that would ordinarily have that rigid metal bridge running from it to the second-from-the-left terminal, currently replaced with a short wire?

Did you try moving the wire from the far right dial terminal to the one that currently does not have anything connected?
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: poplar1 on August 08, 2012, 11:33:51 AM
I didn't see the piece of wire; so if that too is removed, then that would free up that gold-colored screw which is 3rd from left. Moving the wire from 5th screw (furthest to right) to this one, then the two contacts that are making properly would short the receiver out during dialing in order to suppress the clicks. (I suggested this in reply #66 8/6/12 9:01 AM). This is not quite as good as the original circuit once you get the proper dial, but is better than nothing.
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on March 14, 2013, 12:19:37 PM
Hey all.  Stub helped me find an AE dial I could cannibalize, and after some fiddly part-swapping, the phone now works!  And looks great on my antique rolltop desk.  I wish its headset tone were a little louder, but maybe that's how they were in the 1930s (since there wasn't so much electronic amplification then).

Anyway.  My sincere gratitude to everyone who helped!  You guys rock.
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: poplar1 on March 14, 2013, 01:34:01 PM
Make sure the diaphragm on the receiver is not bent or rusty.
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on March 14, 2013, 09:05:05 PM
Matt,
         That's great!! You hung in there and overcame!! Now you know it's about time to get another one  ;D  stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: handworn on March 21, 2013, 12:34:40 PM
What does the diaphragm look like?

Make sure the diaphragm on the receiver is not bent or rusty.
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: poplar1 on March 21, 2013, 12:51:39 PM
It is the thin, flat metal disk that you see when you remove the receiver cap. If it is painted on one side, the painted side should be facomg out.

See photos in reply #13 in link below:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5552.0
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: wfs1933 on April 23, 2015, 05:01:35 AM
i seem to now have a handset with the same 3 wires going to the reciver like the picture (ae #38 handset) i am completely lost  it seems to have no attaiction for the diaphrain  how can this be wired  ?
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: AE_Collector on April 23, 2015, 10:56:11 AM
Which picture are you referring to wfs?

Stub can help out more but if the receiver unit itself in the handset has three leads it s an induction coil handset and is for use with an AE phone that is designed for an induction coil handset. These phones look the same on the outside but use a different wiring scheme. It wont use the normal 1A set to a 32 subset wiring.

Check this topic to see if it is what you have:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11490.0

Terry
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: stub on April 24, 2015, 12:09:55 AM
wfs1933,
             If you are a TCI member you can go to the Singingwires Archives , 05 - 2014 , pgs. 7-8 , " Connecting AE       Induction-coil Handsets to Monophone Desksets ", by Mr. Meyer , might be helpful for you. The early induction-coil receivers (281582 ) were only 95 ohms and had to have the external wire wound 205 ohm resistor and the handset cord has 3 conductors. Some time later ( 1934 ? ) the external resistor was replaced by winding it inside of the receiver  ( 295 ohms - 282251 ) 2 conductor handset cord and they both look identical. No subset is needed for either type of induction coil handset . To find out which one you have ohm between terminals 2 and 3 with other wires disconnected. 95 ohms needs the external 205 ohms resistor and 295 ohms won't . You will need a ringer box.
              Here's diagrams that might help - 1st one -early induction-coil receiver with resistor and 2nd one- the later version with no external resister.   stub
Title: Re: Compact AE32 Subset wiring for Automatic Electric 1A Telephone
Post by: wfs1933 on April 26, 2015, 02:55:48 AM
Thanks! i am also glad i only need a ringer and not the subset
it was stupid of me not to first look in the tci libary first.
i seem to have the older one with the coil  im sure this phone has never been touched.