Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Telephone Wiring Diagrams => Western Electric "all other" Wiring Diagrams => Topic started by: bingster on March 14, 2009, 02:53:23 AM

Title: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on March 14, 2009, 02:53:23 AM
You've just bought a telephone on eBay, and it looks like one of the phones below:


(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18474.0;attach=164824;image)



Now you want to take your first step to making the phone work.  But which telephone do you have? 

MODEL IDENTIFICATION
You can tell which model you have by the marking on the back of the "neck" of the phone, just below the ridge between the base and the cradle.  It will most likely say either "B1" or "D1."   These are the model numbers of the telephone base.   The small round base is the "B1", and the wider oval base is the "D1."  Often, these are referred to by the numbers "102" and "202," but these numbers actually pertain to the internal wiring schemes and not the overall telephones.  Each model can have either wiring scheme.

After determining which model you have, you can tell which wiring scheme you have by looking at the mounting cord, which is the cord that runs from the telephone to the subset.  If the phone's mounting cord has three internal conductors, the phone's wiring scheme is "102."  If the phone's mounting cord has four conductors, the wiring scheme is "202." 

For an explanation of the technical differences between a 102 and a 202, please see > this thread. < (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4670.0)

TELEPHONE WIRING
Using one of the first two diagrams below, you can  check to make sure your phone is wired correctly.  Over the years tinkerers have their way with telephones, and many are found to be wired incorrectly.  Choose the diagram that matches your wiring scheme (102 or 202).  Once the phone is wired properly, it's ready to be connected to a subset and placed in service. 

A note about the telephone diagrams:  The M1E cords (dial cords) are shown in blue and purple for clarity.  In reality, both cords are black.  If your phone is missing these cords, you can use any similar size wires to replace them. Click on each image for a high-resolution image.

SUBSET CONNECTION
Diagrams 3 through 5 show the method of connecting a 102 or 202 to a 634, 684 or 685 subset.  When connecting a 102 (three-conductor mounting cord), the method of connection is the same as for a 202, except that there is no black conductor in the mounting cord of a 102.  Simply connect the other three as indicated.  Click on each for an enlarged version.

Since most condenser wires have faded from their original colors to varying shades of brown, making it difficult to tell if the condenser is wired properly, the last diagram shows the original colors and positions of the wires coming out of the 194A condenser, when viewed from the condenser's end.

IMPORTANT:  B- and D-mount telephones which are equipped with an E1 handset MUST be connected to a subset for proper operation.  Despite what unscrupulous ebay sellers may have told you, this is NOT an option, and extended use without a subset will cause permanent damage to the handset.  B- and D-mount telephones which are equipped with an F1 handset are not as susceptible to this damage, but the functioning of the telephone will be more satisfactory when it is connected to a subset.  In short:  Use a subset--it's the other half of your telephone.

SUBSTITUTING A 302 OR 500 BASE FOR A SUBSET
For those who don't have a subset, a 302 base may be substituted, in which case the diagram labeled "634/684 101A Induction Coil" is used. 

A 500 or 2500 base may also be used as a subset, in which case the diagram labeled "685 Subset" is used.  When using a 500 or 2500 base as a subset, all the switch hook wires which are soldered to the network should either be unsoldered or snipped off.  Because of this alteration to the network, only a base which has no value and which is unfit or truly not needed for regular telephone service should be used. If you don't wish to unsolder or snip the soldered wires (and that's understandable), they may be left in place, but the switch hook arm must then be tied in the down position, and the dial wiring removed from the network.  Using one of these bases as a subset also requires a jumper wire to be connected between network terminals "RR" and "L1".  Any short piece of thin wire will work for this.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: FrankC on August 08, 2010, 12:15:22 PM
Hello Bingster, thank you for enlightment on the difference between a 102 and a 202. I always thought: 102-round base, 202-oval base.
Can you please tell me that if I am using a mini-network is it necessary for me to use a subset on either of the above models? I know the phone won't ring without a subset, but am I doing any damage to either the phone lines or my phone by not using the subset? Does a mini-network replace the need for a subset? Thank you for your help with this. Frank
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: AE_Collector on August 08, 2010, 03:36:01 PM
Amazing Drawings Bingster! Beautiful work.

Terry
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Doug Rose on August 08, 2010, 03:44:51 PM
Darrin...outstanding!!....Doug
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on August 08, 2010, 05:58:25 PM
Thanks for the compliments guys.

Frank, the mini network replaces the need for a subset.  Obviously, it can't ring, but it contains the critical part of the subset, in miniaturized form, which protects the handset elements from damage.  You're good to go with yours.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on August 08, 2010, 08:19:33 PM
Great job Darrin, and great explanations too.  

To everyone else about the differences between the 102 and the 202:

For a long time, I assumed that the 102 was the older round base, and the 202 was the newer elliptical base.  I think it is a natural thing to expect a physical difference in the actual model appearance and assume that is the way it worked.

The B and D mount can be wired for either 102 or 202 wiring.  102 is the sidetone wiring, using a sidetone subset, and a 202 is the improved antisidetone circuit that used the antisidetone subsets.

The belief that the round "B" mount is a 102 and that the elliptical "D" mounts are 202 model phones is a belief that is also touted by many an e-Bay seller that writes as if they know what they are talking about.  The newcomer, of course will tend to believe someone that sounds authoritative.

All that being said, the D mount did come out at about the time that antisidetone telephones were being pushed by the phone company.  It is probably true that more "B" mounts were originally wired for 102 service than for 202, and that more "D" mounts were wired for 202 service than not.  This would also contribute to the confusion.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: AE_Collector on August 08, 2010, 08:36:49 PM
Good summary of the 102 and 202 Bill. Even I understood that and usually all I understand is why your AE 80E won't ring.

Terry
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on August 08, 2010, 08:49:44 PM
Yes, but if I remember correctly, you got it to ring for me too!

:)

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: AE_Collector on August 08, 2010, 09:09:11 PM
Yes, but if I remember correctly, you got it to ring for me too!

:)



80E's have a ringer auto-disconnect feature. Drop the phone or even a sharp hit and the capacitor flies out of the push in connector and that's the end of it ringing. When on a "Bells don't ring" repair, having the customer point at their 80E set always brought a smile to the repairmans face.

Terry
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on August 24, 2010, 11:24:45 AM
The cord from the phone to the subset:

Red wire to R in the subset
Green wire to G in the subset
Yellow wire to L2/Y in the subset

The line cord from the subset to the wall:

Yellow - Not used
Red to L1 on the subset
Green to L2/Y on the subset

Red and green go to each of the two wires in the wall, and it does not matter which goes to which.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Doug Rose on August 24, 2010, 11:30:19 AM
Darrin...these are positively outstanding. Made so easy even I can do it. How about s schematic for the subsets? Everytime I find one not working, I have to take a working one off the wall and so a stare and compare. These are wonderful. Its like Old Telephones for Dummies. Great work....Doug
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on August 24, 2010, 12:48:21 PM
Penn:

Have you carefully checked the wiring inside the 102 base?  I would start there.  One thing to look for that I have seen a million times is the shaft of the spade tip on the end of the wires touching another one.  Sometimes they move a little bit when tightening the screws down and one winds up touching another one right next to it.  Check the ones on the dial especially.

Other than that, maybe a photo of the inside of your phone would help.

Also check this:

The receiver cord, if it is standard for WE should also have three wires Red, Black, and White.

Check inside the handset to see that they are connected to R,B, and W, respectively.  Inside the body of the phone, the white should be connected to W on the dial, the black should be connected to BK on the dial, and red should be connected to R on the dial.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: HarrySmith on August 24, 2010, 01:11:01 PM
Very nice work, Bingster :)
You have some talent there, is that part of what you do professionally?
Thanks for taking the time to do it for us ;D
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on August 24, 2010, 06:43:32 PM
Thanks, Harry.  I used to use Photoshop once upon a time, when I did graphics work, so I guess that helps a bit.  But honestly, stuff like this is so simple anybody could do it with just a little practice.

Darrin...these are positively outstanding. Made so easy even I can do it. How about s schematic for the subsets? Everytime I find one not working, I have to take a working one off the wall and so a stare and compare. These are wonderful. Its like Old Telephones for Dummies. Great work....Doug

I've added a 634/684 subset diagram to the first post, that I hope will help.  I thought about going literal, and showing the realistic positions of each component, but the subsets went through several revisions throughout the 1930s, and the parts changed their look and position with each version.  So I colorized this one, removed extraneous information, and added a few things that I thought would help with clarity, and hopefully that will help the "diagram-phobic" among us.

To get back to Frank's question about wiring in a mini-network, the job isn't as simple as running a few wires from the network to the phone's terminals.  It requires wiring changes inside the phone, as well.  I've had a look at the diagram for doing this, and to be honest, I can't make heads or tails  of it.  It might be easier in the long run to keep your eyes out for a proper Western/Northern Electric 634 or 684 subset.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on August 24, 2010, 08:59:07 PM
The connection of a 102 should be identical, except that the black conductor of the mounting cord is missing.  The mounting cord (the cord that connects the phone to the subset) of a 102 is made up of three conductors (red, green, and yellow), whereas a 202's mounting cord is four conductors (red, green, yellow, and black).  But remember that if you have a B-mount and a four-conductor mounting cord, then you have a 202, rather than a 102.

The method of connection is the same, whether the phone is manual or dial, and it makes no difference which dial the phone has installed in it.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on August 25, 2010, 01:58:28 AM
Penn:

The 395 transmitter was the original for the older E1 handsets, and was a horrible transmitter by today's (or yesterday's) standards.  It is also called a bullet transmitter due to its construction that has the ball-like protrusion.  It's technical name was the barrier-button transmitter.  It came on the scene in the 20's and was replaced by the F1 transmitter in the mid to late 30's.  The E1 handset was retrofitted to take the F1 transmitter element with an adapter.

The F1 handset was specifically designed around the F1 transmitter.  The F1 transmitter was replaced by the T1 transmitter when the 500 came out in 1949.  (1948 for the early trial sets).

So, an F1 element in an E1 handset is perfectly acceptable.  In fact, many B mounts and D mounts were also retrofitted to F1 handsets when the E1's went south.  Sounds like your problem was the 395 transmitter in the handset you have.  Normal wear and tear and normal currents should not make them smell burnt, however.  Maybe it took a lightning hit in a past life.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: paul-f on August 25, 2010, 02:16:06 AM
Larry Wolff's book, Desk Telephones of the Bell System, states that the F1 transmitter housed in a 625A enclosure replaced the 395B in E1 handsets in 1935.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Penn0920 on August 25, 2010, 10:38:37 AM
Hi Bill,
well thanks to all of your help, I got her up and running.  Many many thanks.   I'm just curious have you ever salvaged a bad bullet transmitter?  I'm thinking about getting a voltage reading, and sticking in a condenser mic in there with an approx. resistor.

Penn
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on August 25, 2010, 11:50:17 AM
Penn:

If there is no physical damage to the bullet transmitter, you could empty out all the carbon and salvage carbon granuals from several T1's to fill the 395B.  I believe it would take several T1's to do a bullet, but I have never done it, even though I have one that I have been wanting to truy, but have never had the time.  It would be trial and error as to how full to fill the 395B.  The carbon in the 395B I believe is readily accessible via a screw plug at the peak of the bullet dome once the bakelite bullet cover is off.

As to the condesner mic, or even an electret mic, it has definitely been done.  There is ample voltage.  On the 102, 202, and 302 sets, the transmitter is in series with the primary of the induction coil and those are connected directly to tip and ring of the phone line.  Under load, you have about 35 mA (give or take) and about 6-8 volts (give or take).  Unloaded, the voltage coming from a telco central office is 48.  From a Voip router, it can be anything from 24 to 48 unloaded, but under load it usually winds up being 6-8.

With no electronic devices connected, polarity in the older phones was not an issue.  If you use a mic that is dependant on polarity, you know what to do.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on September 06, 2010, 05:49:10 AM
I've updated the initial post in the thread to include better subset diagrams for the 634/684 subset.  They were redrawn from images of subset interior schematic labels. 
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Wallphone on September 06, 2010, 02:13:55 PM
Nice work on the updated diagrams Bingster (as usual). I didn't see any where on the Forum how to hook a 425 network up to a WE 202 (#2, 4, or 5 dial). Maybe I missed it.
If you go to the TCI Library > http://www.telephonecollectors.org/library/weco/weco.htm < and look up "202 set with 685 Type Subset", that should do it.
Dougpav
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on September 06, 2010, 07:54:53 PM
Bill did some study on this a while back, and determined that the common method of connecting a 425 network to a 202 is overly complicated, and the network will work just fine without the need for extra conductors in the mounting cord and without modifications to the wiring inside the phone.  Here's the post:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=1958.0

I'll try to work up a diagram for this setup.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Wallphone on September 06, 2010, 09:08:16 PM
Thanks for looking up that earlier post Bingster. I have bench tested the other circuit and it seemed to work fine. I will try this way of doing it too. I like the idea of using a 425 instead of the mini networks because then you have the option of using a ringer. I'm looking forward to your diagram.
Dougpav
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 06, 2010, 10:23:33 PM
Bingster,

I would be very happy to see a pictorial diagram based on that.  I was thinking of doing it some day myself, but my computer graphics skills are not very great.

Looking forward,

Bill
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on September 07, 2010, 05:41:37 AM
The new 685/425B subset diagram is up on the first page.  If any problems are spotted, please let me know. (I checked and double checked, though.)

A couple notes on the 685 subset (the one with 500-style components):  There's nothing soldered to the network in this subset, which is as it should be.  However, if you use an old 500 base as a subset, you will find several conductors soldered directly to the network.  ALL these must be removed, either by unsoldering them or snipping them off.  Also, note that there is a jumper wire attached between terminals "RR" and "L1."  Any short piece of wire will do for this purpose.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dennis Markham on September 07, 2010, 08:59:47 AM
Awesome diagrams, Darrin.  Thank you!
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 08, 2010, 09:56:56 PM
Darrin:

Great work, and I have been at work doing some testing.  I have one slight change to the 102/202 with the 425B network to make.

That is, under furhter consideration, the black wire is best connected to B rather than C.  It creates a little more boost in local volume, and does a better job of sidetone suppression.  C will work, but B is better, AND it has the benefit of being more the norm as in hooking the black wire to "B", AND B is always a screw terminal and C is usually a solder terminal in dial 500's.

I should have seen that before.  Kind of like a duh!

With the 102, the black wire does not exist, and therefore is not connected at all.

Maybe two separate diagrams would be in order.

This will work on ANY 425B and above, including 4228B and many, many others that are based on 500 and 2500 wiring, including Princesses, etc.

I can work up a 425A diagram, which would be different, but I doubt there are any out there to be used as subsets, and are found mostly in the coveted early 500 phones, so I won't at least unless someone wants it.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: paul-f on September 09, 2010, 12:16:48 AM
Thanks for looking up that earlier post Bingster. I have bench tested the other circuit and it seemed to work fine. I will try this way of doing it too. I like the idea of using a 425 instead of the mini networks because then you have the option of using a ringer. I'm looking forward to your diagram.
Dougpav

Doug,

You always have the option of using a ringer -- even without a mini network.  All you need is a capacitor and the ringer in series across L1 and L2.  (You don't need a 425 network to get the capacitor.)
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on September 09, 2010, 04:35:37 PM
Thanks for the update, Bill.  I've replaced the 685/425/etc diagram with a revised version.  Also, instead of having one for 202 and another for 102, I just added a note to the diagram regarding the black mounting cord conductor.  I think I'll try this out tonight, as I haven't given it a go yet. It seems so much easier than the other way, which is really rather complicated.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 09, 2010, 06:00:49 PM
Darrin:

It looks good.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on September 09, 2010, 06:22:52 PM
Thanks, Bill. I've since tested it on a 425 and a 4228 and I'm suitably impressed.  Nice work.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 09, 2010, 07:19:31 PM
For me, the drawing would have been the hard part.  Thank YOU!

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dan on September 09, 2010, 08:48:54 PM
My mounting cord (the one that goes from the phone to the subset) has been cut off. It is wired like your 202 picture (I have a D1 phone).. I have a nice three wired cord (green, yellow, red). Can I use this as the mounting cord in a antisidetone setup since it doesn't have the black cord that is mounted on the phone ?
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on September 09, 2010, 10:32:56 PM
Absolutely you can use it. It won't be antisidetone, though. With the three conductor cord it will be a 102 sidetone setup, even if you use an antisidetone subset. It's really not that big a deal, though. Give it a shot!
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dan on September 09, 2010, 11:32:15 PM
I'll try it to a 425A network and see what happens. Thanks
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 10, 2010, 01:21:24 AM
Dan:

The 425A is a different animal than a 425B.  Using a 425A without the equalizer in the circuit, I can get it to work just fine with the 3 wire sidetone circuit using the same connection points as with the 425B.  Using the 4-wire antisidetone black wire, there is no equivalent convenient place to hook it, except to C.  Unfortunately, the one and only 425A network I have is in a good early phone.  It has the hookswitch wires soldered in place, and I can't easily test that assumption.  Perhaps later on when I have the time to do a little soldering.

You could leave black unconnected and go sidetone.  Using the equalizer on a non-500 phone is counter productive.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dan on September 10, 2010, 08:45:07 AM
Thanks, I meant a 425B, my 425A is on my 1950 We500 and I certainly don't want to part this one out. Sorry for the typo.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dan on September 10, 2010, 03:18:08 PM
Maybe someone can help me here. I wired it up to an old 425B subset out of a WE500. I took off the dial, handset and unhooked the hangup switch except the two soldered on connectors. I didn't want to cut them off unless I have to. ? (this may be my problem). I used a 3 connector cord from the phone to the subset. Per your diagrams , the mounting cord is wired  on the phone, red to red, yellow to yellow and green to green (102 style). (see picture 1).

(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/a202002.jpg)

 The other end of the cord to the network is yellow to L2, green to G and red to red (see picture 2).

(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/a202.jpg)

 Wall cord to plug in the house  is green L1 and red L2 .

Picking up the phone I get no dial tone, whether the hangup switch from the WE500  is depressed or not.  Calling the "creation" results in a good ring, but when I pick up the F1 handset I hear pulsing noises made from the ringing.  ??? This is greek to me.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 10, 2010, 04:28:48 PM
Make sure to put the jumper wire between L1 and RR
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 10, 2010, 04:38:27 PM
One other thing..... with the hard-wired soldered terminals on L2 and C, you will not be able to talk unless the hookswitch is unsoldered from at least one of these terminals or the hookswitch is in the down position.

Something I don't think we discussed before.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dan on September 10, 2010, 05:10:52 PM
Thanks Bill, I'll put in the jumper and hold the switchhook down and see how it goes!
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 10, 2010, 05:17:10 PM
Don't forget to stand on one foot and rub your tummy and pat your head!  :)

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dan on September 10, 2010, 05:33:38 PM
I'll resume this tommorrow. Gotta go to a HS FB game! thanks Bill!
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dan on September 20, 2010, 07:23:58 PM
Finally resumed this. I used a 425B network. The phone rings true, dials out great, but the volume in the handset is darn near  imperceptible. It is very faint. I did use the jumper.


To eliminate the handset as the source of the problem, I hooked it up to a 634 B-A subset and it is much louder and works better.

Any ideas?
(Other than buying another subset?). :)
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 20, 2010, 08:04:10 PM
I had typed a reply that was to take the hookswitch wires off R and GN, but I see from your photo that you already did. 

When I get home from work tonight, I will look at your photos again and see if I can see anything wrong.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dan on September 20, 2010, 09:58:55 PM
Thanks Bill ,here's the way it currently looks:

Network (wired 102 style)

(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/202001.jpg)


Wiring in base. (the  mounting cord is brown, handset cord black rubber)

(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt253/dvortv/202002.jpg)
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 20, 2010, 11:00:05 PM
Dan:

The red wire should be connected to R, Not RR.  The jumper should be between RR and L1 as you have it.

See the attached for the place to connect the red deskset wire.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dan on September 20, 2010, 11:38:48 PM
Hey Bill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5URYhXE55bo&feature=related     --> (  dead link 7-14-17 )

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18474.0;attach=164885;image)


Thanks :) all fixed and good!
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on September 21, 2010, 01:00:46 AM
I love that scene.  Very appropriate to telephone repair.  Good work!
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 02, 2010, 12:32:38 PM
Hello!  I am new here and need the wiring diagram to install a mini network into my WE 202.  It is a 1934 WE 202 with a 1948 5H dial and a F1 handset.  I already rewired it using a diagram on one of these forums, but it will not dial out, it just "acknowledges" the fact that I used the dial.  It did not acknowledge the dial until I rewired it either because the dial was apparently not hooked up inside it.  I am not sure why.  Help is appreciated!
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on October 02, 2010, 01:45:02 PM
The first question is which mini network are you needing to wire?  Is it the AE mini network from an AE Style Line?
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 02, 2010, 09:18:16 PM
Yes I believe that it is.  It looks as if it will barely fit into the phone.  This will make it possible to actually dial, right?
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on October 03, 2010, 01:25:12 AM
Dark:  Is that a play on Darth Vader?  Welcome to the forum!  And if appropriate, may the force (of phone collecting) be with you!

To answer your last question, yes that will need to be there not only to dial out, but to properly match the line to the phone, if it is wired correctly.  

Since there are several variations out there, perhaps some photos of what you have would help.  Since a photo can tell a thousand words, it is better if we can start there.  Otherwise we can be here until Luke Skywalker takes over the universe exchanging various posts.

If you can, take a photo of the insides of the phone that show clearly (and hopefully in focus) how it is wired and what the mini network looks like.

Sorry for the teasing, but I am a tease.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 03, 2010, 01:44:14 AM
Funny that you should mention Darth Vader.  The Dutch words "darth vader" translate to dark father!  There is a story behind my screen name that I might share some day.  When I get back into town I will send pics of my rewired phone.  I have viewed others on the internet and what I have is almost 95% universal.  The other 5% have a wire or two in different locations.  I also have a pic of the mini network.  It looks HARD to install in the phone.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Jim Stettler on October 04, 2010, 01:50:01 PM
I just searched Remco's site with "cording". several documents came up. The first has quite a few of the wire drawings. I suspect so do the others.

I think everyone really likes the colored drawings, If you get bored this winter Bingster, maybe you could color a few  :)

Just a thought,
Jim

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 04, 2010, 07:36:03 PM
Here is my rewired phone.  The black wires I am uncertain about even though the diagram I used showed it explicitly. A diagram for this would be greatly appreciated!  I tried to use one I found on the internet, but it did not make sense.

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/2506/luatCN.jpg
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Jim Stettler on October 04, 2010, 08:07:53 PM
that is an AE mini network, they were used in the stylelines (AE trimline).

I think old phone works has a sheet of diagrams for wiring this network to many different phones. The diagram sheet was originally from house of telephones and I suspect a copy is probably in Remco's site.


This is what works for me, when trying to follow diagrams:

When trying to reason out the diagrams, keep in mind there are various components that all phones have:
Line In (2 wires Tip and Ring)

Transmitter (2 wires)
Reciver (2 wires)

[the transmitter and receiver may share a common wire, consider it 2 seperate wires for each with a common tie point.]

at least 1 switch.
a speech network

If it is dial then it also has a set of pulsing contacts and a set of shunt contacts.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Find these parts on your phone and then on the diagram.

Concentrate on 1 element at a time. Keep at it until all the components are landed. Test it out.

You still might be fuzzy on the diagram, but you will probably have the phone wired correctly.

If the phone works then study the diagram against the parts and it will probably become a little clearer.

Works for me,

Jim
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 04, 2010, 08:34:18 PM
If memory serves the indecipherable diagram I mentioned WAS from the website you mentioned.  It is hard to believe that at this time I have been unable to find a streamlined idiot-proof wiring diagram for this!
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Jim Stettler on October 04, 2010, 09:07:15 PM
That is the same drawing oldphoneworks has.
My house of phones drawing is a different drawing, but it shows the same layout.

I havn't studied the photos. Assuming that all your wiring is correct, you could have a bad mini neywork.
Just a guess,
Jim
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Wallphone on October 04, 2010, 09:19:28 PM
The drawing that was posted was from Ray Kotke. Everything that you need should be on this page.
> http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&task=search_result&Itemid=11 <
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Jim Stettler on October 04, 2010, 09:33:17 PM
Dark Father,
Assume the phone is wired correctly. Try wiring the mini network like this:


Network wire color to termination point

Yellow   to dial BB (term 4)
White to dial R (term 5)
Pink to BK (term 3)
Green to transmitter
red to transmitter
Blue not used
[ The term # is looking at the dial back w/ the seperate terminal as term 1.

The switchook is shown between L2 and dial Y (term 2)

Jim
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 04, 2010, 11:02:42 PM
Thanks!  I tried to use it and actually heard dial clicks a few times when it was hooked up.  But the dial tone remained steady.  I do not know which is transmitter, receiver, etc.  Still trying...
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on October 04, 2010, 11:11:32 PM
Transmitter is the part you talk into, and the receiver is the part you hold to your ear.  The receiver will have a 2-conductor cord that goes into the back of the base, and the transmitter should have either two yellow wires going up through the perch to the back of the transmitter, or the wires will be one yellow and another will be a yellow with a yellow and brown stripe.  That is unless someone has modified the wiring.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 05, 2010, 12:59:50 AM
Jim S I tried your idea and it did not work for me.  Also I do not have a red wire on my mini network, it is black.  I am beginning to think that my phone may have some serious issues.  I do not see how since it gets a clear dial tone, and a few times I heard clicks when I dialed it. FRUSTRATED!! ???  Perhaps my dial is bad.  I have used every possible combination that I can think of with trying to hook up this mini network. 
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 05, 2010, 01:09:50 AM
I have noticed that some of these phones are wired using the seperate red (R) term and others use the (R) term on the dial.  I have even seen some that has one red wire on each which seperates them.  Which is correct?  Note my previous pic of my rewired one.  When I opened this phone the red handset wire was attached to the seperate term (there was no wall-mount wire so I installed one to get the phone going so I have no idea where THAT red wire belongs).  As it is now BOTH of my red wires are on the dial term marked R.  Both my black wires occupy the same spot on the dial (term #3).  Why all the variations?
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on October 05, 2010, 09:45:35 PM
With a dial, both reds go to the R terminal on the dial.  The "R" terminal on the mount is not used.

No dial, you have no choice but to put them on the "R" terminal on the mount.

With dial, both blacks should go to "B" on the dial.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on October 06, 2010, 01:57:40 AM
The easiest (and certainly least frustrating) way to go with this might be to check ebay for either a proper subset.  Or if you're on a budget, a cheap modular 500 will work, giving you an easy to use subset for $5 or $10.  This way, you won't have to worry about all the wiring modifications, and could use the standard connection diagrams.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 07, 2010, 01:53:50 PM
I know of an antique store that has a no-dial version phone with the subset.  I did not want to go that route.  This network issue simply makes NO sense!  OTHER people get their mini networks to function.  Why not mine?  I have a feeling that I must send this to a phone repairman to be gone through.  The only thing that I am wondering about is the dial.  There is a small screw that attaches the dial that is apparently missing in this phone of mine.  Perhaps it was used as a parts model.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on October 07, 2010, 03:15:45 PM
Dark:

Dont be discouraged, I am sure I can help you out and get this going, and if not me, there are others too.

It looks like a standard AE mini network, and so it should not be a problem.  I check in from time to time during the day from work, and right now is one of those times, and since I am at work, I don't have the information to help you out.  I have also been very inundated at work this last week and have spent very little time on this board.

I can take a look at it later tonight when I get home, but I probably won't be home until  about 8pm Pacific, and I see you are on Eastern time.

So, if you can bear with that timeframe, good, otherwise maybe one of the others will be able to jump in.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dennis Markham on October 07, 2010, 03:40:12 PM
I have a question to ask....am I the only one seeing the same red phone?  I see the Batman phone posted 4 times, but others may be seeing a different image.  Bill made the comment that it "looks like an AE mini network". 

What are the rest of you seeing??

Thanks,

Dennis
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: HarrySmith on October 07, 2010, 03:40:53 PM
Batman Phone. I did see a blurry picture of the network somewhere.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Kenny C on October 07, 2010, 03:46:09 PM
A red Manual 500 with a bat man dial card  and Modular
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dennis Markham on October 07, 2010, 03:47:38 PM
Looking back on it, I see at least 9 of those images.  Perhaps Dark Father is using that as his "signature"?
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Kenny C on October 07, 2010, 03:49:37 PM
thats explains it LOL
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 07, 2010, 03:56:32 PM
Yes, that is my temporary signature.  I wanted it as my avatar but it would not load correctly.  That is my desk phone that will soon be joined by the WE 202 that I am fixing.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Wallphone on October 07, 2010, 04:43:05 PM
Let's all take up 1/5 of a MB with our signature and see how long it takes until Dennis has to go to a higher rate plan for the Forum website.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dennis Markham on October 07, 2010, 05:47:03 PM
I think it's hosted off-site, at Photobucket, so that isn't an issue.  If it wasn't I think the software would not allow an image that size for a signature. 
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on October 07, 2010, 07:36:36 PM
I have a question to ask....am I the only one seeing the same red phone?  I see the Batman phone posted 4 times, but others may be seeing a different image.  Bill made the comment that it "looks like an AE mini network". 

What are the rest of you seeing??

Thanks,


Dennis

Dennis:  I was ignoring the red manual 500 photos.  The network I was referring to was several posts back.  I too was confused as to why I kept seeing the same photo until I checked his profile that shows that as his signature.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 07, 2010, 08:10:56 PM
I used my cell phone to call the phone as a test.  I gave the cell to my son and sent him to the other room. I could hear him talking to me, but he could not hear me.  Maybe this phone is more broken than I thought.  And I thought this would be an easy fix!
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on October 07, 2010, 08:46:35 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with the phone.  There's really not much there that can go wrong, and they almost always work when wired correctly.  The problem is that these mini-networks require the phone to be wired incorrectly, and that introduces a lot of confusion when it comes to connection and troubleshooting.

I found this image on ebay, and it may help you with this.  It shows the same mini-network installed in a 202.  If you can trace the wiring and make it identical to this, I'm sure your phone will work fine.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Wallphone on October 07, 2010, 08:53:02 PM
The same phone is missing that screw, right? With that screw missing your dial contacts could be set wrong. I think the transmitter has to go through the pulse contacts.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on October 07, 2010, 09:49:46 PM
I have a 202, and I have an AE mini network.  I will wire them up tonight and I will post detailed instructions.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on October 07, 2010, 11:23:38 PM
Here it is.  I am assuming that since you have wired it up so that the cord going out of the phone is connected as you have it that you are going to mount the network external to the phone.  Wiring it inside the phone is a tight fit, and requires some way of attaching the network to the base with insulating double sided sticky tape, which can be very challenging, so an external mount is a better and easier solution.

So, what you need are:


Connect as follows:

Red line cord wire to the first terminal on the strip connector
Green line cord wire to the second terminal strip connector

Pink Mini Network wire to the first terminal strip connector
White Mini Network wire to the third terminal strip connector
Yellow Mini Network wire to the fourth terminal strip connector
Red Mini Network wire to the fifth terminal strip connector

Yellow 202 deskset wire to the 2nd terminal strip connector
Green 202 deskset wire to the 3rd terminal strip connector
Black 202 deskset wire to the 4th terminal strip connector
Red 202 deskset wire to the 5th terminal stip connector

Put a piece of tape on the ends of the following Mini Network wires, as they are not to be connected, and should not come in contact with any other wires:

Black
Green
Blue

Attached is a diagram that shows these connections:

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 08, 2010, 06:39:03 AM
Thanks phonesrfun!  I actually hooked up what I could and was able to dial with the phone.  Now my next issue.  I do not have a 7th (red) wire on my mini network.  Mine has yellow, white, pink, green, black, and blue.  I hooked up everything except for the fact that I have no red wire and got a dial tone.  The volume was low and when I tried to dial I kept getting the "cannot be completed as dialed" recording.  So thanks to your help I am many steps ahead of where I was!  Now I need to figure out why I am missing a red wire.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Wallphone on October 08, 2010, 07:07:29 AM
Use the Black wire instead of the Red wire. Some networks have both and they are one & the same as far as the circuit goes. They must have designed it with both the Black & Red wires for usage on a 4 wire handset.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on October 08, 2010, 10:22:24 AM
Yes, the black is the same as the red.

The mis-dialing could be caused by the missing screw on the dial.  That screw holds the dial switch pile-up in place at the correct place for proper dial adjustment.  First hook up the black in place of the red and see what happens.  If it still mis-dials,  Check with Steve Hilsz for the missing screw.

He is not on this forum, but his web site is at:

http://www.navysalvage.com/

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: DARK FATHER on October 08, 2010, 03:22:47 PM
My phone has now made its first call since I bought it!!  The black wire on the mini network did it.  The volume is lower that I thought it would be (not a big deal) and it still mis-dials sometimes.  Curiously when I try to dial my wife's number it ALWAYS gives the annoying recording of "cannot be completed as dialed".   I guess it "has a screw loose" so I must buy another.  And that should do it!!  Thanks millions to all who helped me with this.  It was very important for me to get this hooked up myself rather than have a repairman do it.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Doug Rose on October 08, 2010, 05:43:57 PM
Darrin....how about doing a nice color schematic for a North Galion. I just got one with a WE dial and I want to put an AE 24 in its place. I know nothing about the North Galions Any help would be GREATLY appreciated....Doug
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on October 08, 2010, 06:35:37 PM
I think I can manage that.  Stay tuned.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Doug Rose on October 08, 2010, 06:51:00 PM
thanks Darrin....I do appreciate it....Doug
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: paul-f on October 08, 2010, 07:27:46 PM
Doug,

Try the TCI Library...
  http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&Itemid=35
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Doug Rose on October 08, 2010, 09:29:50 PM
Doug,

Try the TCI Library...
  http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&Itemid=35
thanks Paul...I appreciate it....Doug
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: marty on January 28, 2011, 11:23:31 AM
Hi All;
I just this week got a D1 phone and a Bell Box... The phone has almost all of its wiring gone, except for two connections to the Handset.... The Hand set is an F1, but it has 4 wires coming out of it , instead of the three that are shown in the pictures... Two White wires to the receiver, and a Black and a Red to the transmitter... It also has (I think) a #6 dial, the dial has inked on its back 6M-3  9-66.... the Bell Box has a ringer with 163 stamped on it and a 425b induction unit, all in an enclosed ATT pink case enclosure, I was told it was a bell box for a Pay Phone.... I have looked at all of the Diagrams from this site and So would like to know what is the best way to proceed with the wiring to make it work.....
THANK YOU Marty 
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: marty on January 28, 2011, 12:02:04 PM
HI All;
Here are some pictures of what I have, (If I can figure out how to post pictures)...
THANK YOU Marty
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Wallphone on January 28, 2011, 12:04:33 PM
Marty, here is how the 4 wire handset is wired to the network. Wht to Gn, Blk to B, and the other white and the red to R.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Dennis Markham on January 28, 2011, 12:26:19 PM
Welcome to the Forum, Marty.  When you post a photo (like you did) you should see a link for "additional photos". You can upload 6 per post.  Maybe you could post a few more.

Sounds like someone may have used a cord from a 500 type set with your F1. But like Wallphone (Doug) indicated it can be connected.

You're going to need a four conductor cord to go from the phone to the subset, then a mounting cord from the subset to the phone line.

That looks like it's marked 685A (the subset)?

See if this post helps.  It's for wiring a phone like yours to a 685A subset.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=544.0
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: marty on January 28, 2011, 02:28:59 PM
Hi All;
THANK YOU for your help... I tried to post other photos to the last message, but all that it took was the last one... I am sure it is operator ERROR !!!!!!!!!!!
THANK YOU Marty(http://)
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: marty on January 28, 2011, 09:53:16 PM
Hi All;
I am going to try and send another photo... Also In the "Find of the Month", I am wondering if mine conforms to you "Finds".....
I got my phone a "D1" and the Subset (Bell Box) and another Touch Tone phone all for FREE, from a friend who has to move from His place in a little more than a week.. I am Helping Him move. and He years ago work for the Phone Company... And So I have these units.... I figured out how to upload more than one picture...
THANK YOU Marty
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: marty on January 28, 2011, 11:59:17 PM
Hi All;
THANK YOU, this link, was the link I first ran into, when I found your web site.... And I was SO impressed, that I decided to Join your group, and see what else you have for me .... I have started to look at ALL of your past postings under Technical Stuff and Repairing.... Very Interesting...
THANK YOU Marty
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: marty on February 01, 2011, 07:11:49 PM
Hi All;
I hope that this is a better photo... Now for the Subset wiring...
THANK YOU Marty
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: marty on February 01, 2011, 09:10:19 PM
Hi All;
Here is the Subset, I hope that photos are enough to tell what I have, I have not wired the line out wires to the phone line.... (I need to find one that has wires on one end and a plug on the other), I have one Just have to find it....
THANK YOU Marty
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on February 02, 2011, 12:13:07 AM
Hi Marty,

As far as I can tell, everything in the subset looks okay.   It's a bit hard to tell where the wires on the terminal board go, though, so if it doesn't ring, take the four ringer wires off the terminal board and move them all to the network:  black to "L1", red to "L2", slate (grey) to "K", and slate/red to "A".

Inside the phone:

The red wire from the mounting (connecting) cord AND the red wire from the handset cord, both go to the "R" terminal on the dial.  

Both white handset wires should be connected to the "W" terminal on the dial.  The "W" terminal is tucked down low, to the right of the other terminals.



Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: marty on February 02, 2011, 04:25:21 AM
Hi All;
Bingster, Attaching the Two white wires to the "W" terminal on the Dial , Would Short out the Receiver Connection in this Particular Handset, I have it, where one is Connected to the "W" and one to the "R" connection on the Dial, may not be right , but at least it doesn't short out the receiver ...
THANK YOU Marty
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Wallphone on February 02, 2011, 08:07:51 AM
Marty, I think that both Bingster & myself weren't quite correct in our previous answers. When I told you how to hook up a 4 wire handset I was thinking about how I do it when I test them with a 425 network and my BK 1050 Telephone Analyzer. Here are some links to the TCI Library. If you stare at them long enough I think that you will find the answer to your problem. The extra White Receiver wire on your handset will go with the Red Transmitter wire. (Dang, looks like the actually drawings didn't show up according to plan. That certainly didn't make it easier. Directions below.)
> http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=2203&Itemid=2 < ( go to the 685A which is 12th one down)
> http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=2138&Itemid=2 < (Go to 1st one)
> http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=2139&Itemid=2 < (Go to 2nd one)
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: marty on February 02, 2011, 03:52:02 PM
Hi All;
Wallphone, What is your real name ??? I think I have it hooked up correctly, but will Look at the Links, Just in case.... THANK YOU!!!!!!  What I am Really Interested in IS your B&K 1050 Telephone analyzer.. Do You Have a Schematic for the unit??? I have a B&K Television Analyzer and their Flying Spot Scanner and a Picture tube Checker... I like the Old B&K Products, I may be able to make one from a Schematic... Won't know Till I see a schematic, and Could you send some pictures of the B&K unit...
THANK YOU Marty
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Wallphone on February 02, 2011, 08:55:44 PM
Marty, my real name is Doug, it's usually at the bottom of my postings. Here is a pic of my BK 1050. The manual only has a block diagram in it, it doesn't have a schematic.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: marty on February 02, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
Hi All;
Doug, Thank You for the picture, I have a chance to make a trade for one from another member... Which would make me very happy....
THANK YOU Marty
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Stingo on April 08, 2011, 12:54:34 AM
Quote
A 500 or 2500 base may also be used as a subset, in which case the diagram labeled "685 Subset" is used.  When using a 500 or 2500 base as a subset, all the switch hook wires which are soldered to the network should either be unsoldered or snipped off.  Because of this alteration to the network, only a base which has no value and which is unfit or truly not needed for regular telephone service should be used. If you don't wish to unsolder or snip the soldered wires (and that's understandable), they may be left in place, but the switch hook arm must then be tied in the down position.  Using one of these bases as a subset also requires a jumper wire to be connected between network terminals "RR" and "L1".  Any short piece of thin wire will work for this.

Hi Bingster,
My apologies if I am posting too early, being new here. I hope I don't screw this post up. I have been reading and studying the threads on wiring up subsets, trying to narrow it all down to my specific WE 202 (see it in my avatar)...

I am using an old 2500 touchtone with L1 & RR jumpered per the instructions above. I plan to just secure the switch hook down rather than disconnect any wires to it. I am a TOTAL newbie at this and today is the first time I've even considered how a phone works, and I want to get the 202 operational. It DID work on its original vintage line. I got it from my friend's mother with ringer box missing.

My problem is I am unsure how to wire the 202 "4 prong" plug (Red, Yellow, Green, Black) to the 2500 and then to the wall jack. I am also wondering if there is any further rewiring that needs to be done to the 2500, other than the jumper from L1 to RR...

The 2500 "IN" has Red, Yellow, Green, Black.
The side jack for the handset is Red, White, Green, Black. (I'm assuming this doesn't get used for anything...)

Thanks!

Stingo
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on April 08, 2011, 04:16:17 AM
Hey Stingo, it's never too early to post! And you didn't screw anything up, either.  Welcome aboard!

Congratulations on your phone, and on having the excellent sense to use a subset with it.  I'm assuming the 2500 you have is modular, that is, the phone has the clip-in plugs for the handset cord and the line cord.  If it is, just unclip the handset cord from the side of the phone and tuck it in a drawer somewhere for safekeeping, as it'll only be in the way otherwise.  To hook the 2500 up to the phone line, just clip a modular line cord into the back, and the other end to the wall jack.  Once you've done that, you should have a properly functioning subset.  Pretty easy, right?

Hooking the phone up is just as easy.  I'm not sure what kind of plug you have at the end of the 202's cord, but it's not necessary, and won't connect to a subset.  There are a couple standard Bell System plugs (if that's what you have), and they have a single screw that holds the plug together.  Unscrew that screw and pull apart the pieces.  Inside you'll find four screws that hold down the ends of the colored conductors in the 202's mounting cord.  Unscrew all four to loosen the conductors and remove the cord from the plug.  From there, simply connect the four conductors to the proper terminals on the 2500's network as shown in the 685 Subset diagram (red to R, green to GN, yellow to L2, and black to B).  The positions of the terminals on your network may not be in exactly the same places as they are in the diagram, but they're all there, just the same.

Beyond the L1-RR jumper and tying the hookswitch arms down, there's nothing else that needs to be done inside the 2500, and you should be good to go.  Give that a try and let us know how it goes.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Stingo on April 08, 2011, 01:53:10 PM
Great! I'll give it a go....  :) I appreciate this so much! Glad to be here....
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Stingo on April 09, 2011, 12:54:49 AM
Okay Darrin, I am wiring the phone cord to the 2500 (subset).... Got all the wires connected except black. I can't fnd a terminal labeled "B". I am attempting to attach a couple photos - one of the actual terminal plate in the 2500, and a drawing I did identifying the terminals.... Can you advise me where to connect the black wire?

I had to rewire the phone with a new wire as the old was made of a cloth type wire and clothe insulation so soldering was next to impossible.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on April 09, 2011, 01:46:22 AM
Ahhh, you have one of those ultra new-fangled 2500s.  No worries.  You should also be able to connect the black conductor to "C" on the network without much difference in function.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Stingo on April 09, 2011, 02:11:37 AM
YAY!!!!!!!  :)

Done :) I tested it with the black connected to "C" and everything worked except the receiver volume is really low.... ?
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Babybearjs on October 11, 2011, 02:00:33 AM
You did a beautiful job. there is a new person on the forum thats looking for this help, you guys need to share this with him.... I can't remember his name off hand...
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Marcelo L. on October 11, 2011, 12:35:33 PM
You did a beautiful job. there is a new person on the forum thats looking for this help, you guys need to share this with him.... I can't remember his name off hand...

Could it be me?  ;D
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: RCMcDonald on October 21, 2011, 05:22:26 PM
Greetings all-

I'm new to the forum, but have already found it invaluable in getting a using a 2500 unit I've had knocking around as a subset to a D1/F1 (202?) desk set I recently picked up.  The wiring diagrams at the head of this discussion are invaluable for making this work.  I'm not quite out of the woods yet, as I can get the unit to ring and receive incoming calls, but when I dial out, the dial tone remains constant, even though I'm dialing numbers.  Can anyone here enlighten me as to whether I should be looking for a wiring problem or an issue with my dial?  I've checked and rechecked the wiring against the diagrams, and it looks good.  Something else I might have missed?  I did disconnect the keypad and the hook switch in the 2500, but it seems to me this problem is probably in the 202.

Thanks in advance for the help
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: HarrySmith on October 21, 2011, 07:59:59 PM
HI and welcome to the forum. A few pictures of what you are working on is always helpful, back of dial and network connections to start with. Also if you read down a few posts it is stated by Bingster you have to tie down the switch hook, I believe disconnecting it is not correct.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: RCMcDonald on October 22, 2011, 11:21:58 AM
Harry -
Thanks for your post.  I removed the hook switch wires based on the initial post by bingster, where it states "When using a 500 or 2500 base as a subset, all the switch hook wires which are soldered to the network should either be unsoldered or snipped off.  . . . If you don't wish to unsolder or snip the soldered wires (and that's understandable), they may be left in place, but the switch hook arm must then be tied in the down position, and the dial wiring removed from the network."

Did I miss something?  The network in this phone is a 4228B.

I think you're on the right track, though as it does seem to be something to have to do with being on-hook or off-hook.  If I leave it connected for a while the line goes dead.  If I disconnect the line and reconnect it, I get a dial tone again.  Does that make sense at all?
Thanks for the help.

Bob McDonald
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: oldphonelover on October 24, 2011, 04:36:33 AM
By any chance do you have diagrams like this for candlestick phones? I have one of those with a dial and your mapping helped big time on my 202. So I am hoping you have candlestick maps as well like these. I have looked everywhere for the wiring but can't find one with my dial. Thanks and GREAT! work BTW...
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on October 24, 2011, 05:08:23 PM
I have similar black and white images of candlestick wiring, but I don't have a dial candlestick to glean color information from. 
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: oldphonelover on October 25, 2011, 03:04:11 AM
maybe it well help can u post it? and thanks
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on October 25, 2011, 11:12:56 AM
Wiring diagrams for candlesticks are specific to the model numbers and the hookswitch pile-up configuration.  I think it would help greatly if you had a model number of the candlestick.  Western Electric sticks had the model number embossed on the back of the perch for instance 151 AL.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on October 25, 2011, 04:05:35 PM
Very true.  Plus, the only cording diagrams I have are for the following sticks:

50AL
51AL
51CM
51C
51CL

From that list, I'd probably only bother with a colored cording diagram for the 51AL, which seems to be the most commonly found phone from that list.  I don't have any diagrams for anti-sidetone sticks (151AL, e.g], as my diagrams are from AT&T 4566-February, 1926, which predates anti-sidetone.

However, I'll gladly scan a black and white of any other phone from that list, if anybody needs one.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on October 25, 2011, 06:31:29 PM
Being that I am at work at the moment, I can't break loose on a research project, but the TCI site has some cording diagrams on it.  We can check there.  Do we know yet which model oldphonelover has?

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on October 25, 2011, 06:43:29 PM
Not yet.  I think it would be a good project to embark on, anyway, though.  The 20AL, 40AL, 51AL and 151AL are frequently encountered, so I think doing those would be a help, regardless.  If we can find clear diagrams for the 20, 40 and 151 in the library, that is.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: bingster on October 25, 2011, 07:29:03 PM

Did I miss something?  The network in this phone is a 4228B.

Bob McDonald


Hi Bob,

I can't make out where the yellow wire in the mounting cord is terminating on the network.  Is it on an "L2" screw?  At first glance, everything else looks to be correct.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: oldphonelover on October 25, 2011, 10:16:04 PM
Going to try to attach two pic's. I am not sure of the model and it looks like they have used different parts to create a candle phone [maybe] but here is a pic of the stem and a pic of the dial. The only wire layouts I find don't include that red contact? I think they upgraded the dial along the way. So here are the two pic's. if some one can tell me a wire layout I well cook you dinner [LOL]. I also have four wire cords I replaced from phone to ringer. I got the subset down and connected to wall... [ok going backward...LOL]. Thanks for all your help guys.

Oh I found the marking on the back that say's it is a 20al?

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: johnnyjt on March 06, 2012, 05:03:34 PM
Here is a 102 Dial that I d/l and colored...

It looks better now.

JohnnyJT  8)
South Philly
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: oliva7 on April 14, 2012, 08:07:37 PM
I've wired my WE D1/202 to a 685/425B subset, but cannot tie the final black wire from the mounting cord to the D1 because my phone has a filter/ pulse suppressor (unsure of terminology) not shown on the diagrams.   So- where does the last wire go?  Also, on a slightly different tack, I have a 4 color line with a modular jack connected to the subset; are the black and yellow wires really superfluous.   Strangely out of focus photo attached, loose black wire draped across the center.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: oldphonelover on April 14, 2012, 08:54:34 PM
Hello,

First I am very new at this so don't take the suggestions in stone...

Try this diagram and see if you at least get a dial tone and go from there. I would still join the wires as they should be even with that thing on there. See if it works?

you might check the wires on there as I think one the jumper on the left might be wrong "BK" here's a pic of the one I followed.

as for the jack I beleive your correct in the extra wires. You only need the two I beleive to get a tone at least it seems that way on modern lines.

Let me know if it works.

SMiles
Ron
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: oliva7 on April 14, 2012, 09:23:06 PM
Tried your suggestion and on the test call(s) I could barely hear a thing, but the call went through and the other end could hear me just fine.  And the bells scared the cat- I haven't heard telephone bells in years.   ;DSo- thanks, but now I have something new to work on.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: canuckphoneguy on April 15, 2012, 08:55:58 AM
Thanks for the excellent diagrams! I'm bookmarking this page for when I finally get one of these 102s or 202s (or both)  :P
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: dhilarious on June 18, 2012, 07:19:38 PM
I tried to wire my phone based on your diagram and it did not work.  basically, everything worked except the dial.  It had a dial tone, it would ring and receive calls, however when you turn the dial it just keeps a dial tone.  So I made a change and it worked.   I skipped the yellow line mounting cord wire and I jumped Y to BB.  I know your diagrams are correct but with my phone only this would work.  Any reasons why?

(http://www.antiquevintageitems.com/products/images/201.jpg)
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on June 18, 2012, 07:26:17 PM
Which subset are you wiring this to?

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: dhilarious on June 18, 2012, 08:16:01 PM
Which subset are you wiring this to?



Its a very small   subset/ringer.  Just a little longer than a deck of cards.  Its pretty cool.  I does say something like "bell systems property" and the sound is really great.

(http://www.antiquevintageitems.com/products/images/subset.jpg)
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on June 18, 2012, 09:31:15 PM
The problem is the black ringer is only a ringer and not a subset.  That hookup is not covered in the easy wiring diagrams, since it is not a subset.

A subset has not only the ringer and ringing capacitor, but also the induction coil and talk capacitor.  Your ringer only has the first two items in it.  Your ringer looks to be an E1 from a Princess phone.  It will certainly work as its intended purpose as a stand-alone ringer, but it will not serve as a subset to your D mount (202) phone base.

You will need to get a 634 or 684 subset which includes the ringer, or make a subset from a scrap 302, or hook it up to a 425-type network from a junker 500 or make a cheater subset from parts from Radio Shack.

-Bill 
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: AE_Collector on June 18, 2012, 10:14:48 PM
I was going to say that looked like a Bell Chime to me rather than a subset.

Terry
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: dhilarious on June 18, 2012, 10:23:58 PM
The problem is the black ringer is only a ringer and not a subset.  That hookup is not covered in the easy wiring diagrams, since it is not a subset.

A subset has not only the ringer and ringing capacitor, but also the induction coil and talk capacitor.  Your ringer only has the first two items in it.  Your ringer looks to be an E1 from a Princess phone.  It will certainly work as its intended purpose as a stand-alone ringer, but it will not serve as a subset to your D mount (202) phone base.

You will need to get a 634 or 684 subset which includes the ringer, or make a subset from a scrap 302, or hook it up to a 425-type network from a junker 500 or make a cheater subset from parts from Radio Shack.

-Bill 

I am confused, everything works.  I have many 634 and 684 subsets, but they are huge.  Why do I need them my the phone does everything (rings, makes calls, dial tone, etc). 

Let me know what I am missing.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: dhilarious on June 18, 2012, 10:27:43 PM
(http://www.antiquevintageitems.com/products/images/subset2.jpg)
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: poplar1 on June 18, 2012, 10:45:24 PM
Putting all the parts from a 634A or 684A subset into the phone itself would have taken a lot of room on the desk, although there is a wall phone (653A) that does just that. In 1937 the parts were made small enough that they could fit inside a 302, and this was small enough for most installations.

A car with no headlights, brakes, windshield wipers, horn and only first gear "runs>" A 202 was never intended to be a complete phone unless it was connected to a subset.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: dhilarious on June 18, 2012, 10:50:09 PM
Putting all the parts from a 634A or 684A subset into the phone itself would have taken a lot of room on the desk, although there is a wall phone (653A) that does just that. In 1937 the parts were made small enough that they could fit inside a 302, and this was small enough for most installations.

A car with no headlights, brakes, windshield wipers, horn and only first gear "runs>" A 202 was never intended to be a complete phone unless it was connected to a subset.

I get all of that, but I am still unclear.  Every function on my phone works.  It dials out, receives calls, rings, etc.  So I am asking, why do I need to change this part for a "real" subset.  If this is not a subset, why does everything work.  Thats all I asking because this is all new to me.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: AE_Collector on June 18, 2012, 11:53:27 PM
Have you used the phone as a daily driver including long distance calls etc? A Network equalises the volume that you hear in the receiver so that your voice isn't considerably louder than the distant parties voice. This situation compounds the further you are from the CO so if you use a VOIP phone service provider that might not be a factor at least.

Terry
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: TelePlay on June 18, 2012, 11:54:45 PM
The problem is the black ringer is only a ringer and not a subset.  That hookup is not covered in the easy wiring diagrams, since it is not a subset.

Isn't that black ringer an early EMC1 that was used on or with the early 701 Princess phones, the Princess phones that did not have a ringer inside the base, and where ever else an in line ringer was needed for whatever purpose the user had in mind?
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: poplar1 on June 19, 2012, 12:08:43 AM
One thing you might have noticed is that when you hang up there is a loud pop in the receiver. (Or that when you mash the brake pedal, nothing happens.)
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on June 19, 2012, 12:35:19 AM
Basically, you currently have the transmitter and receiver in series and they are directly across the line.  DC goes through both the transmitter and the receiver.

DC is only supposed to go through the transmitter with only a small AC current going through the receiver.  The subset, big as they were, has an induction coil and a capacitor in them that splits the transmitter and the receiver into two different paths and a isolates the receiver from having direct current across it which can demagnetize the permanent magnet inside the receiver and make it useless.

The subset also both boosted the signal going out so people on the other end would hear you better, and provided antisidetone compensation so that your own room noise and your own voice are not heard so loud in the receiver.

That's what a subset does.

Telephones were developed in the 1870's.  The 202 and associated subsets were a product of the 1920's and 1930's.  Coils and capacitors were huge by today's standards.  The subset was necessary back then, otherwise as cheap as the Bell System was, believe me, they would not have designed phones to have them if they were not necessary!

It was not until the late 1930's that components were small enough so that the entire phone could be placed in one housing.  Thus the Western Electric 302.  In the 302, they basically moved all the components of a 202 with 2 boxes (The subset + the phone body) into one housing.  After the war, even more advances were made to the size of capacitors to even get better compactness.

So, you can do your phone all you want with no subset.  There are no subset police out there.  Just remember, you will have better performance, it will be more authentic, and you will extend the life of the receiver in your handset by having a subset.

Cheers,
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: AE_Collector on June 19, 2012, 12:41:24 AM
1928 actually! Though little more than a subset with an AE 1A molded onto the top to make it a 1 piece unit.

Somewhere I recently saw a pair of Western Electric versions of the AE#2, One was green and the other was red :)

<-----------AE #2 from 1928 (until I change my Avater at least - If the picture to the left IS NOT an AE #2, insert picture of AE #2 here)

Terry
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on June 19, 2012, 12:56:17 AM
Bragger!

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on June 19, 2012, 12:57:20 AM
You are right, though. WE took a page right out of the AE catalog and made their own.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: AE_Collector on June 19, 2012, 01:11:00 AM
Lots of copying went on.

Terry
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: dhilarious on June 20, 2012, 08:57:51 PM
wow, im having no luck.  I have 2 202 model phones both with a 685(a) subset.  one with a 5H dial and a newer one with a 6A dial (Imperial).  Anyway, I tried wiring my subset and phone exactly as the diagram.  When I do that it rings but no dial tone or anything else.  So I open my imperial  202 it works and  has the same subset and its wired different in both the subset and the phone itself.  I re-wired it the same as the imperial and it works.

I will try to get pictures when I can but one thing I remember was that there were 1 or connections that needed to be on the side tab strip that you said does not need anything.  There were  maybe 2 other differences as well.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: stevie M on October 29, 2012, 07:29:21 AM
Hi everyone.  I'm new here and I wanted to say that I used this to connect both my 202 and 211 to 685 subsets and they now work perfect.  My question is are there any similar diagrams for connecting a western electric candlestick with a 5H dial to a 425 network?  the phone has 2 transmit wires and 2 receiver wires and nothing connected to the switch hook so I'm at a loss where to begin.  Thanks in advance for the help.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: poplar1 on October 29, 2012, 09:26:43 AM
It is possible with some rewiring. Can you look on the neck and see if it is marked something like 50AL, 51AL, or 151AL? Normally you would need 5 conductors between the desk stand and the subset.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: jfrutschy on December 01, 2012, 11:03:27 AM
 ???Hi my name is John.  I have had your pix of your wiring diagrams for the 102/202 series with dials in front of my bench so i had them memorized.  ha-ha.  You mentioned these Bayer's who are wiring the phones to work but not using the subsets, they sell them with the Lil ringer box.  Is this also damaging to the phone since your not using the other half of the phone???    I wired my first restored phone n tested it it but FORGOT to omit the black mounting cord wire. got a dial tone (weak) and no break in the signal when dialed.  I inspected the EBAY phone I bought!!!! I sent that pic I havent done a thing in fear of damaging the phone ( I have alot of work in it as I am sure your aware, probally more so cause I am less knowledgeable.  The phone came with the Lil ringer box and was only wired using the RED n Green from the mounting cord (  Is this what will cause the damage, this kind of wiring?   If so then I need to just ommit my black mounting cord wire and add a subset and do like your drawing and USE SUBSET??

Thank you
John.....Another noobie
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: poplar1 on December 01, 2012, 07:30:14 PM
John, it will definitely work better with a subset or mini-network. (The mini-network fits better in the round base phone than in the oval one.) If you use a subset, you will need 3, 4 or 5 conductors between the phone and the subset (depending on the type of subset), and 2 from the subset to the wall jack.

Without a subset or mini-network, you risk acoustic shock to your ear and damage to the receiver.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: jfrutschy on December 02, 2012, 11:35:19 PM
Thank you!  If I use the mini network can the small ringer be used?  Found a 634 subset so I can have it both ways have to check on the wires like yous said...

Does the ae wall phone using the 24 dial have the componets to actually build a subset???  It looks just like a subset.  I have tons of questions this is so much more interesting than repairing computers.

Thanx again
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: poplar1 on December 03, 2012, 12:45:16 AM
John,

Either way will work. The 634A subset would be more authentic.

On landlines you can usually have the equivalent of five ringers of the type used in 500  sets (the rotary dial phones that everyone had in the 60s-70s). If it is a 634A, you might have to have fewer phones ringing.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: jfrutschy on December 03, 2012, 12:54:16 AM
Gotcha.   Guess 1 634 would get my collection a little jump.  This is my 1st 102, that was in fantastic shape, just had to tweak it some.  Working on  3 more 102's and 2- 202's.  All been glass beaded blasted and are getting powder coated as we speak.  Dials ready!  Handsets bin polished up.  This is so cool!  Thought I wanted to fly RC Planes.   Thanks again.

john
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: poplar1 on December 03, 2012, 01:04:10 AM
The AE 24 wall phone is equivalent to a AE 21 candlestick phone wired to a subset.
You may want to restore the AE 24 rather than using it to make a subset.

For 202s, you can use the base of a Western Electric 302 phone. There are lots of these phones that are cracked so they can be used for parts. One of the members here makes covers that fit on the 302 bases to make your own subsets.

You still need 4 conductors between the 202 and the subset.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: stub on December 03, 2012, 01:22:24 AM
 jfrutschy ,
          Ray Kotke, who goes by kleenax, is one of the folks who can supply a 302 subset cover.  stub
             
                                          http://tinyurl.com/3fqlkak



Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: zaphod01 on May 27, 2013, 01:31:40 PM
I used the wiring diagram in this thread to build a working 202 on the cheap. Got the phone from ebay for $29.99. It probably went low because the seller correctly identified it as Northern Electric. I built a subset using a rusty 500 base but had very low volume on the first attempt. The line cord was very brittle and I didn't trust the cable ends I built for the subset side. I had a 4-wire handest cord from an old 500 (broken at the grommet). I installed spade ends on the handest cord, pulled out the line cord from the 202, and installed my cord. Of course, the line cord I built had a black, red, and two white wires. I just connected one of the white wires to green and sorted it out on the subset side later. The new wire solved my volume problem. It ain't pretty but works!

Robert

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Mr. Bones on May 27, 2013, 04:59:07 PM
Nicely done, Robert!

     Always remember, one of Murphy's Laws is as follows:

     "If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid."

Best regards!
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: poplar1 on October 16, 2014, 12:30:55 PM
202 wired to a 685A subset per BSP 502-320-414, Issue 1, December, 1971, using a 5-conductor mounting cord.

http://telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/2780-502-320-414-i1-service-202b-c-d-hand-telephone-sets-tl

(Submitted to the TCI library by remco-e)
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Steve on February 28, 2015, 03:40:10 PM
Hi all,

 I'm having a bit of a problem with a d1 I'm trying to get working.

I've had this for about 20 years, and just now trying to get it working correctly. I bought this phone from an antique shop hooked up to work without a subset.

since i got it, even with no subset it has a nasty case of hook switch and dial "pop". I have it hooked up to the subset now following the wiring diagram on this forum.

I am able to make calls now, but the ringer is not working. also the hook switch/dial pops are still present.


my next step will be to bend the dial contacts down as reference here http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4848.0


hopefully that will cure the popping.

but, can anyone tell me how I might get the ringer to work?

here are some pictures of how I have it connected. I had the ringer connected a few different ways, starting with the wiring diagram here http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=784.0


Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: WesternElectricBen on February 28, 2015, 05:40:35 PM
"20 years later," a perfect time to begin working on your project. :)

Could you please elaborate your setup so we can better help. To start of, please do this by telling us the kind of subset/induction coil?

Ben
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Steve on February 28, 2015, 07:09:54 PM
"20 years later," a perfect time to begin working on your project. :)

Could you please elaborate your setup so we can better help. To start of, please do this by telling us the kind of subset/induction coil?

Ben


 Sorry, I seem to have posted this twice. here is the current thread

 http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13815.0

Thanks for the help so far all.

20 years IS a long time. life got in the way I guess.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: vinhvinny on April 15, 2015, 12:16:26 PM
I am using  the 425E network from my WE500 as the subset  for my 202.

Can someone show me how to test the voltage before and after this subset is hooked into it, to make sure that my made up subset actually works and will prevent damage to the handset?


Thank you
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: b3tamax11 on June 12, 2016, 04:33:02 PM
Quick question, I just picked up a Northern Electric 584DX subset off of eBay, it looks pretty similar to a 584 subset, I am assuming it is fundamentally the same as far as wiring goes?

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: unbeldi on June 12, 2016, 06:04:42 PM
Quick question, I just picked up a Northern Electric 584DX subset off of eBay, it looks pretty similar to a 584 subset, I am assuming it is fundamentally the same as far as wiring goes?

Is it really labeled 584 ?
It should be a 684BX, as it has a 101A induction coil.

Here is the wiring schematic:
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: b3tamax11 on June 12, 2016, 06:59:17 PM
Checked the eBay listing again, definitely stamped 584 DX. Perhaps this subset was tinkered with and rebuilt on the base of a 584?
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: unbeldi on June 12, 2016, 07:17:15 PM
I see, the 584DX was a bell box only, without an induction coil.
So, someone added the induction coil to the box and turned it into a 684BX.   I think they used the same base plate.
They probably also had to exchange the condenser, I doubt they would have let the 584DX a 195A condenser pack.


PS: looking at those pictures, I am not sure I can see four leads coming from the condenser, perhaps the capacitor was not changed.

PS: No need to change the condenser, the NE catalog says that the 584DX also used the same condenser.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: b3tamax11 on June 23, 2016, 05:24:47 PM
I got my 584DX/684 subset with the 101A induction coil today in the mail, and I have everything wired up according to the 101A coil wiring diagram on the first page, however the phone doesnt work at all. I noticed that in the original diagram, the terminals for E and GND are labelled as L2 and R on my set. Is my wiring situation different than the diagram?
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: unbeldi on June 23, 2016, 05:31:59 PM
I got my 584DX/684 subset with the 101A induction coil today in the mail, and I have everything wired up according to the 101A coil wiring diagram on the first page, however the phone doesnt work at all. I noticed that in the original diagram, the terminals for E and GND are labelled as L2 and R on my set. Is my wiring situation different than the diagram?

Yes, the terminal board in the 584DX needs different terminal designations than the 684BX, because it doesn't have the induction coil with its terminals.
You just have to repurpose them according to the 684 diagram.

PS:  your wiring seems ok.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: b3tamax11 on June 23, 2016, 06:05:59 PM
Attached for reference is the wiring inside the set itself. At this point I feel like it could potentially be the handset cord which is the problem. Its the original one to the set and the spaded wires are very brittle and somewhat cracked.

EDIT: I put another handset with a new cord onto the set to test it and it works perfectly. Time to get a new handset cord!
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: dsk on July 24, 2016, 03:47:12 AM
My D1 has a diagram from
 Associated Telephone Co LTD 
Still it fits best here under WE phones.  It has an AE dial (as described in diagram) and My home-made subset are based on a Kellogg circuit.

dsk
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Babybearjs on September 07, 2016, 02:08:52 PM
You know, I hate this at times.... I so used to wiring the 302's that I always try to wire the 202's to match the 302's wiring scheme.... using a 5 wire subset cord.... instead of the 4 that is always shown... you have the green and yellow, that would be equivalent to the blue-brown and yellow-brown wires, the red-white direct to the line and the black from the condenser and the red receiver wire direct to the coil... its frustrating when you get so used to wiring thing the same way that when you try to follow another earlier schematic it screws you up.... because you know where the wires are suppose to go....
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: poplar1 on September 07, 2016, 05:54:17 PM
It's true that there are 5 wires from the top section of a 302 to the base. However, you can rewire a 302 using only 4 wires as follows: Move the red handset wire from R onthe induction coil to R onthe dial. Also, move the red/slate jumper wire from L1 to R on the induction coil. This makes the wiring equivalent to a 202.

The only difference is that when the dial is operated, in the original 302 wiring (5 wires), tip and ring are shorted except when the dial pulse contacts open. In the modified circuit, the primary (L1 - R) of the induction coil is still in series rather than a complete short. This has little effect on the square wave of the dial pulses.

The 202 circuit with 4 wires connected to a 302 base, 634-type or 684-type subset is correct. However, the black condenser wire should not be connected directly to the induction coil (L2-Y terminal). Rather, it connects to the black mounting cord lead from the 202. The green wire from the 202 is equivalent to the green (not the brown-blue) hookswitch lead of the 302. The yellow wire from the 202 is like the yellow (not the brown-yellow) hookswitch lead in the 302.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: markosjal on May 11, 2017, 09:32:49 PM
Years ago I  bought a simple answer only telephone . It was an AE style handset, with NO DIAL. I took it apart and later cloned it into a WE type handset. It had inside, a simple network of Capacitor, varisor and 2 resistors ( I remember the components formed a square) and an on/off switch  and slapped a Buscom SoftTouch on it. This served me well for many years.

This "Mini Network" as I recall was a 1uf cap and I think one resistor was 330 Ohms.

I later stuck one in a WE 202 and used that for many years as well.

Unfortunately I have lost the diagram.

It is much like this on page 12 but without capacitor across the switch and this one is missing 2 components.
http://oldphoneguy.net/images/oldtex22bw.pdf
If anybody else knows of this circuit, please share.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: Phonesrfun on May 11, 2017, 11:27:44 PM
Try this link:  This circuit has been discussed as a "cheater" subset.  It really works quite well.  No antisidetone compensation, and a little less than optimum in gain but it really works quite satisfactorily.  Notice that for a 202, there are 4 wires;  Red, Green, Yellow, and black.  Just tape and store the black wire as it is not needed.  With a little ingenuity, you can probably figure out how to just put it directly inside the 202 base.



http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2849.msg39770#msg39770 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2849.msg39770#msg39770)


Basically, the resistor goes in series with the transmitter to divide the voltage between the resistor and the transmitter.  The receiver goes across the resistor, but with the capacitor in series with the receiver.  The capacitor keeps DC out of the receiver, but allows the AC signal to pass to the receiver.

-Bill
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: markosjal on May 12, 2017, 12:42:30 AM
That is a more simplified circuit , and nearly identical to the one I linked to on the Paul F Site.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: unbeldi on May 12, 2017, 09:36:35 AM
Years ago I  bought a simple answer only telephone . It was an AE style handset, with NO DIAL. I took it apart and later cloned it into a WE type handset. It had inside, a simple network of Capacitor, Variac (or varisor) and 2 resistors ( I remember the components formed a square) and an on/off switch  and slapped a Buscom SoftTouch on it. This served me well for many years.

This "Mini Network" as I recall was a 1uf cap and I think one resistor was 330 Ohms.

I later stuck one in a WE 202 and used that for many years as well.

Unfortunately I have lost the diagram.

It is much like this on page 12 but without capacitor across the switch and this one is missing 2 components.
http://oldphoneguy.net/images/oldtex22bw.pdf
If anybody else knows of this circuit, please share.

What is an answer-only telephone ?  No transmitter ?   A manual, no-dial phone is good for answering and originating.


Circuit for the RC 'network':
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10617.msg112976#msg112976

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10617.0;attach=79826;image)

The term 'mini-network' is generally accepted for the small PCB-based transmission units by ITT and AE, which are perfectly well-performing AST hybrids.

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: markosjal on May 13, 2017, 01:10:39 PM
What is an answer-only telephone ?  No transmitter ?   A manual, no-dial phone is good for answering and originating.

Like a Butt set without monitor mode and no dial . It was encased in an AE handset. Simple switch near cord  for on / off.

I later replicated it in a WE handset with a buscom soft touch (microphone replacement with touch tone keypad) to make it into a full phone. Yes it was a Frankenstein however a good frankenstien. I always wanted a simple mount on wall hookswitch for it and never found one.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: markosjal on May 14, 2017, 02:17:54 AM
...Circuit for the RC 'network':
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10617.msg112976#msg112976

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10617.0;attach=79826;image)

The term 'mini-network' is generally accepted for the small PCB-based transmission units by ITT and AE, which are perfectly well-performing AST hybrids.

The problem with this diagram specifically on say the 202 is that it would require a four conductor handset cord.

I just crammed the R/C "Micro network" into a 202 with F1 handset and made some refinements to accommodate the 3 conductor handset cord. I will try to document it and diagram it. I also did it without adding any more terminal strips in the phone (at one point I thought that was impossible). I hot glued the Capacitor to the middle of the base and came up with a "quick connect" method for it so the base with capacitor can be completely removed and reinstalled more easily. The resistor connects at one end to an existing terminal and the other end has another "quick connect" . This quick connect on the resistor was simply a way to avoid adding another terminal. 

After having made 2 calls now am quite impressed as the sidetone is not that bad. It would be nice if there was a little less. But it is perfectly usable at least on my UTStarcom IAN-02EX VOIP ATA.  Also interesting is using the "Makes last" contacts, i get no loud popping. I suspected I would still need a varistor, diac or dual diodes across the receiver but see no need. 

I will also be posting what I remember of a "better micro network" as I do remember the component layout (all four of them) to which the handset , and hookswitch connected. Maybe some genius here can figure out where what all connected and component values. I must have built it 100 times as a kid for lack of real phone networks. Oh yea that was before Internet and I was the "weird kid" collecting old phones.


Mark
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: poplar1 on May 14, 2017, 05:56:33 AM
The problem with this diagram specifically on say the 202 is that it would require a four conductor handset cord.


If the hookswitch had only 3 make contacts, then a 4-conductor handset cord would be needed. With 2 sets of 2 contacts, as in a B1 or D1 mounting, then only a 3-conductor handset cord is needed.

In both a 20-AL and a 102, when off-hook green goes to the receiver, yellow to the transmitter, and red to the common trans./rec. In both, one side of the transmitter and one side of the receiver are opened when hanging up. In both, the receiver opens first to prevent acoustic shock (pops in the receiver).

Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: markosjal on May 14, 2017, 11:06:01 AM
If the hookswitch had only 3 make contacts, then a 4-conductor handset cord would be needed. With 2 sets of 2 contacts, as in a B1 or D1 mounting, then only a 3-conductor handset cord is needed.

In both a 20-AL and a 102, when off-hook green goes to the receiver, yellow to the transmitter, and red to the common trans./rec. In both, one side of the transmitter and one side of the receiver are opened when hanging up. In both, the receiver opens first to prevent acoustic shock (pops in the receiver).

As I said "In this diagram...." please see attached . There you will see the handset circled and there MUST me 4 wires to said handset according to THIS diagram

Mark
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: poplar1 on May 14, 2017, 11:42:58 AM
Both this diagram, and the one that I was replying about, are of a desk stand, not a 202. Despite the fact that the hookswitches in both diagrams are drawn as if they have 2 pairs of contacts -- as the Y/BK and the GN/W in a 202, if you look closer you will see that the contacts are labeled R/W and R/YY. In fact, both Rs are the same contact spring, and the 3 springs make to complete the path from the R terminal to both the transmitter (YY) and the receiver (W)....The first diagram also has "desk stand" designated in blue.
So the transmitter and receiver are separate units, not a handset.

With 3 contact hookswitch, 4 conductor handset cord would be required. But a 202 has a 4-contact hookswitch.

Hopefully, unbeldi can better clear up the ambiguity of the two R contacts in each drawing.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: unbeldi on May 14, 2017, 01:24:35 PM
Hopefully, unbeldi can better clear up the ambiguity of the two R contacts in each drawing.

The diagram is a circuit diagram, not a wiring diagram.   Having two Rs only means that it is the same terminal, as is the case of the well-known configuration of a three-leaf hookswitch of a simple candlestick.  A circuit diagram shows the logic of a circuit, not necessarily the actual connection points.  One can design the logic of the two switches in many different physical expressions.

The diagram expresses a general method.  It should not matter whether the attached desk set is a 102 or a 202, with the reservation of not connecting the black wire in case of AST sets.  It is only important to adhere to the standard color coding of the conductors in the WECo mounting cord, which produced the receiver signal across green and red, and carries the transmitter signal between red and yellow.  The same applies to the simple RC adapter.

The simple RC 'network'  functions by using the resistor as the audio source for the receiver.  The voltage drop caused by the received audio signal across this resistor provides the audio power for the receiver.  The resistor should be adjusted for optimal listening experience, enough loudness and minimal signal reflection (echo) and will probably end up falling into the 200 to 600 Ω range.  The standard terminating impedance for telephone sets is 600 Ω.  So the resistor value depends on the impedance of the receiver used, and the length/line impedance of the local loop.   The capacitor only serves to block direct current flowing through the receiver, and should therefore be dimensioned large enough to not attenuate the signal unduly.  2 F might be adequate, but larger is just fine.







Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: unbeldi on May 14, 2017, 03:29:26 PM
As I said "In this diagram...." please see attached . There you will see the handset circled and there MUST me 4 wires to said handset according to THIS diagram

Mark

Again this diagram is schematic only.   In a telephone with a hand-held receiver and fixed transmitter, there are four wires, but when a combined handset  is used, it was customary to use a common return conductor for both transducers.   In that case the center two conductors are a single one and only a single two-point switch would be needed, if you can bear the popping noise. But since that was an unacceptable performance issue the designers added additional switches to make sure the receiver is the last element connected after establishing the direct current circuits of the telephone.  The precise way this was accomplished in each telephone type is almost always the only difference between the circuits of the model lines.  The principle of circuits was essentially the same.  Once you understand the principles, you can wire any telephone in a correct manner with whatever switches you have available, if at least sufficient.

PS: a possible layout when using a handset telephone, with two separate switches as found in the B1 or D1.  In practice, the  WECo circuit for the D1 handset mounting in the 202 telephone also moved the second switch in the red common handset conductor to the yellow wire, as shown in the last schematic.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: markosjal on May 15, 2017, 09:26:39 PM
Is there a collection of these diagrams posted here somewhere? for instance 202 with dial?. I posted a thread about my 202 wiring with mini R/C network can do a diagram.
Title: Re: W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams
Post by: dsk on May 16, 2017, 01:20:00 AM
Is there a collection of these diagrams posted here somewhere? for instance 202 with dial?. I posted a thread about my 202 wiring with mini R/C network can do a diagram.
My 202 with a dial: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16538.msg171093#msg171093 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16538.msg171093#msg171093)
I hope this may help.

dsk