Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => Collector's Corner => Topic started by: Dan/Panther on March 20, 2010, 11:08:11 PM

Title: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 20, 2010, 11:08:11 PM
I recently posted a thread and then retracted it.
I was watching an auction, and got outbid earlier. I was going to share about it, because I was not going to bid higher than the guy did. The bid showed at $510.00. I had bid $500.00.
Well I posted the auction and in the mean time I went back to it, and found out the guy had withdrew his bid. I of course did not want to publish the auction, for obvious reasons. Well it ended and I did win for $224.00. I hope not a fools bid.
Here are 3 photos to compare.

1) In the first photo, one I'm sure we are all familiar with, notice the numbers and letters around the 10 position. In case you can,t make it out it says;
"O/ Operator/ Z

2) In the second photo also check the numbers and letters around the 10 position. "O/ Operator/ Z. Dennis mentioned in another thread recently a VERY RARE number wheel and probably impossibly to find.

3) Also notice the plunger levers are flat horizontally, and not vertical.
Notice the equalizer box left of  the dial.

4) Notice in the last photo, something I have never even heard of before.
It says;

"Do Not Open, In case of set trouble,  return set to Bell Telephone Laboratories, Murray Hill, New Jersey."

5) Notice in Pauls photo of VERY EARLIEST 500 sets, the plunger levers are vertical, in the photo of the phone I won, they are laying horizontally.

I know it's rough, but it looks beautiful to me. Also notice the fingerwheel is broken, and appears it was made from plastic.



I think I have either scored a 49-500, or a prototype 500. Any comments ?
When I get it, I promise many detailed photos.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 20, 2010, 11:47:49 PM
got my fingers x'd for ya d/p.......but i wonder why did the first guy withdraw his bid ???
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 21, 2010, 12:22:34 AM
His bid was $1601.00, I think he panicked and was afraid he might win. I was sweating bullets at $500.00, then I upped it it $750.00 after I saw his bid of $1601.00. What really &&&&ed me off was, it revealed my maximum bid, and I had to up it in hopes the $500 would stick in everyone mind, and not think I would up it because it was revealed.
then it went to the wire at $15.50, when I refreshed I thought I had won it at $15.50, and that I had made a judgment error in what I thought was looking at. Then it finished at $224.00. I didn't panic at the price, because it confirmed, I was not the only one that saw it's potential, 130 people viewed the auction.
this is why I don't like it when people post auction that are active, other than the contest we have. This I thought was a sleeper because the photos were bad and no one was asking questions.
I must say to Jorge, I'm sorry I pulled the original post, and did not give the link to the auction, it had 2 hours to go. I hope you understand.

Dennis told me, when I said I would love to have a 500 with my Birth year, but unfortunately I was born in 1949. He said; "Don't give up, there may be one in your future, or something similar. He may well have been right, I sure hope so.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 21, 2010, 01:00:44 AM
D/P:

Good luck with that phone. At your convenience, please post the auction number.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 21, 2010, 03:44:01 AM
This is super exciting Dan!  I think you've found the Holy Grail of 500 sets!  That dial bezel alone has to be one of only a few, if any are still left.  Does it have a cover and handset?

Great find and great deal!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on March 21, 2010, 04:31:37 AM
D/P, I really really hope that this is what you're looking for. 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 21, 2010, 08:58:29 AM
Dan,

I was the bidder that bid $222.22.  I did  not see this post prior to the end of the auction, in fact not until now (8:49 AM on Sunday morning).  I was alerted to this item over 24 hours before it ended.  Not for the rare dial bezel but because of the rare, early chassis.  I was alerted by another collector about the auction and not as a result of your post here on the forum.  I noticed the Z/O on the dial bezel from the lousy photo.
 
I knew by the ebay feedback number that an experienced bidder had bid, but of course didn't know it was you. But I still would have bid.  Had I  known that you had bid $500 I would not have because I wasn't going to bid that high.  

So based on your posting here, I take it you are the owner of that chassis?  Congratulations.  The only thing that stood between you getting it for $15.50 and $224 was me.    Had I known the story ahead of time I would have saved myself the trouble and you $200.  I never saw the $500 bid as I didn't log on to snipe it at the end until a few minutes before it ended.  By that time it was still $15.50.

We all look forward to plenty of photos about this unusual item.  I think Paul Fassbender would love photos as well.

~Dennis

Wait a minute...let me think about this.  YOU were the only one thing that stood in the way of me getting it for $15.50! :)

Jorge (and others), here is the auction:  http://tinyurl.com/ygx6btc
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Doug Rose on March 21, 2010, 09:52:30 AM
D/P ....outstanding find!!! I have never see a 49 500 set, so I am hoping you will be able to show it to us....good luck, I think it was a great gamble....Doug
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 21, 2010, 10:14:34 AM
Interesting to see the auction page.  Had I known about this phone I would have been in the running as a 49' or prototype 500 is high on my wishlist.  I think it's easily worth a grand.  Clearly the seller had no idea what it was, they seemed to think it was just a junker, crappy pics, no mention of date codes or even that it's a model 500.

Glad it not only went to a collector who knows what it is, but to D/P who will really treat it right.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 21, 2010, 11:34:06 AM
McHeath, I was also glad that the seller did not sell it under the table to a "vulture" who may not have seen it.  Perhaps there were no inquiries to the like.  As Dan said, over 130 people viewed the auction.  That's not a terrible lot, but a good amount.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 21, 2010, 11:36:56 AM
Noticed that it seems to have front pads attached with screws, like the 302?

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 21, 2010, 11:38:50 AM
It looks like the real deal to me.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 21, 2010, 12:12:05 PM
What would you all do with this phone?  (out of curiosity)  Would you leave as it, give it a good cleanup but leave incomplete, add the missing parts to make it functional, or what? 

I would clean it up, probably would have contracted that job out with one of our pros on the forum as I'm not the best at it.  Certainly would have hooked up a handset to see if it worked.  But then not sure, leave it as found with all the missing parts means it's all original, and it's a very historic phone.  Adding parts needed to use it could give the satisfaction of using it. 

Wonder where the seller got it? 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Craig T on March 21, 2010, 12:18:10 PM
Not often I keep the shines in my pocket, but I would wipe off the dirt on this one and leave it. Put a nice clear plastic case over the top of it, like one of those cake covers. Don't forget to draw a crown around the top of the plastic case b/c this one is the new king of 500s.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 21, 2010, 12:23:17 PM
Dennis;
I'm really surprised that of the 130 views, that only two or three seemed to see what was hiding there. Why didn't your friend bid ?
I think of the 130 views probably 100 were my views, I kept looking at it about every few hours all week long. I was a nervous wreck, and very edgy all week.
I've seen these type auction go to the wire at pennies, then hit the big bucks in the last 5 minutes.
If this turns out to be the real deal, I must ask everyone to me help in determining exactly what to do with it. I may have been the one that ultimately won it, but I some how feel it doesn't belong to me alone. This may very well be the only one of it's kind, as I've heard that even though others own one, photos, or physical appearances seem not to exist.
I hope I'm not overstating how I feel about this. From what I've learned over the past 18 months, most seem to agree this is the Holy Grail of phones.
If it were any other phone, my instincts would want me to clean it up, and find parts to put it back to original condition. However, I don't think that is the case with this.

Crig;
I feel pretty much like you do right now.

Tom;
Believe me I do also.

Jorge;
that is what I felt, I wonder where to find information on it's original condition ?

Doug;
The real gamble was hoping I bid high enough. The evidence was there, that it definitely was not anything usual.

McHeath;
I don't know where he found it, but I bet he's going to be looking very hard for a long time. He lives near Murray Hills NJ home of Bell Labs. I bet some landfill there is full of 49-500's.
Maybe they had an on site disposal area, that could still be uncovered.

 
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Craig T on March 21, 2010, 01:25:15 PM
D/P How very "unshelfish" of you  :)

I am not sure where they threw them out in N.J. but I have heard plenty of horror stories about "The Dumpster Behind The Phone Company Office" from the folks around here. Oscar the Grouch probably ended up with them!  :-\
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on March 21, 2010, 04:07:33 PM
I'd be shaking like crazy looking at that phone.  I don't have paypal at the moment and have missed out on a lot, but of course, couldn't afford this no matter how bad I wanted it.  I'm so glad that somebody who will know how to treat it right, and cherish it is going to get their hands on it.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bellsystemproperty on March 21, 2010, 04:41:24 PM
Please don't turn this phone into a lamp!  ;) ;) ;)
I wonder how the dial got like that. Maybe it was shredded?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on March 21, 2010, 05:20:17 PM
What a sleeper, and what a rollercoaster ride!

For illustrative purposes I concur with the idea of a clear body on, with an easy release, this would be ideal for its appearences on exhibition, and obviously you wouldn't be trying to claim the clear body is in any way original, or how about getting a Dremel and making a real one similar to these pics, you could cut up an un-needed half decent 500 case?

Just food for thought, and well done, glad it went to someone who appreciates it.





Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on March 21, 2010, 05:22:27 PM
based on this amazing drawing from a brochure:

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on March 21, 2010, 06:33:13 PM
D/P, you folks sure know your 500's!

Imagine I had stumbled over this and just put a decent 500 body over it and it would just be sitting in my house!

Hmmm, maybe I should double check my 554 network date... ;)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 21, 2010, 06:37:43 PM
Does anyone have any idea as to which handset it had originally.
My guess is it had a G1 design with F1 elements installed.
I know it had the Straight handset cord.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Doug Rose on March 21, 2010, 07:04:18 PM
D/P ...will you post the auction number so we can take a look at it....good luck with your find.....Doug
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on March 21, 2010, 07:06:50 PM
Glad you got this phone....surely important and rare.  It has me thinking about WE policy regarding what was done with these '49s once production of the 500 was off and running in 1950. This example does look to have been put in the 'Trash' pile of some kind at some point. Provokes a flashback of that huge pile of phones I came across in 1971 as a child fishing along a river in Connecticut. Yours thankfully this phone does not look to have been outside though....no rust.

The Murray Hills Bell Labs is where the transistor was invented in 1947 or 48, earning Bell Labs the Nobel Prize! I'm going to call my Father in law regarding this......for his father, a physicist, worked briefly at Murray Hills during WWII on the development of radar !

This must be a prototype with that writing on the base......unusual to say the least. Never seen that.

As to how to proceed with it.....some of the restoration/display ideas mentioned are good ideas. In a way simply cleaned and left in it's current state and presented at shows would work since it is such a rare item - until research and location of correct parts can be done. It would be among the very few "rough condition" sets to draw a crowd at an event.

Thanks for sharing the photos & details......we've all learned something important about 500 history.

Drew
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 21, 2010, 07:35:28 PM
D/P:

The ringer seems earlier than a C2A. Notice that it appears to have a metal strap running above the ringer coil. That would be another first in this phone. Normally there is nothing connected on the top of the ringer.

The dial seems to have a recessed space for the nut that holds the wheel in place. That is unusual also.

I don't believe it is a production model, probably a field trial unit instead.

Paul Fassbender could give you a good assessment of this phone. He has lots of Bell prototype units.  
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 21, 2010, 08:11:59 PM
I've been gone most of the day so I'm just getting to answering your post Dan.

I can't speak on behalf of my friend.  I don't think he realized it had the Z/O plate.  He just noticed the Bell Labs and the different look.  It wasn't something apparently that he was interested in buying.

It was in the category that I don't often look, therefore I didn't see it and would not have had I not been alerted.  I didn't notice the Z/O plate until yesterday afternoon.  I decided then I'd try and buy it.

It's kind of like what I read about people that win the lottery.  The best thing may be just to hang on to it without altering it until  you've given it some thought.

I think the eBay counter only counts each I.P. once.  You can visit a thousand times and it will only count you once, if you were logged in...I think.  I tried it yesterday.  My subsequent visits did not raise the count.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 21, 2010, 08:31:59 PM
Let us know when it arrives. I am so happy to see the "Bigfoot" of model 500's. I would put a G-1 black handset on it for completeness sake with a straight cord.

I little soap and water or 409 and aThat's all you need.

Wow! I am speechless and happy for you!!!! 8)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 22, 2010, 12:16:08 AM
Jorge;
you may be right, I went by what was posted at Pauls site, he said the earliest 500 were C2A. But if this is in fact a prototype it could well be some other ringer. Any ideas what it might be ?
I will re-post the photos tomorrow, after a few inquiries.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 22, 2010, 07:30:20 AM
wow! what a saga! d/p i truly hope this is the holy grail it seems to be! i am going to reserve judgment on the treatment of this set until you complete your research & have more photos. i am leaning towards display in some type of clear case. maybe with an engraved plaque :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Netdewt on March 22, 2010, 09:44:11 AM
Definitely clear case and keep everything cleaned but unrestored. That would be super cool. Waiting for more pictures!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bingster on March 22, 2010, 06:59:13 PM
Did the earliest versions have plastic fingerwheels?  I've never seen a metal fingerwheel break up like that.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 22, 2010, 08:42:22 PM
Bingster;
My though exactly, It was either plastic, or bakelite. My guess Plastic.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 22, 2010, 11:40:09 PM
I'm betting that a replica of the fingerwheel could be made by someone skilled in casting plastics.  That would be interesting to have, perhaps you could sell them, you know advertise them as the original design fingerwheel for the 500.

Paul F's site notes that the 1948 prototypes had a green cloth covered ringer coil.  I'm wondering if this phone is perhaps one of those due to it's odd switch hook design, strange ringer, screwed on feet, and very early dial, it will be interesting to see.  I think you really hit pay dirt on this one D/P, if it's a 48' then you may very well have the only one in existence. 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 22, 2010, 11:54:15 PM
McHeath;
I can only hope. If only a handset and shell would show up :o :o :o
I think I can find a straight handset cord.
I got tracking confirmation. The phone is in the system, and on it's way.

I'm posting the photos again so everyone can see how it compares to the one in the Henry Dreyfus photo, and the Pacific Tel magazine of 1949.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on March 23, 2010, 07:37:10 AM
D/P   Can you share what is known about the 1948 prototypes ?  More is known and has been written about the 4,000 1949 field test sets.

I would imagine you'll find some dated commponents on this gem.  Please have someone snap a picture of the look on your face when you open the box with this phone in it  :o
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 23, 2010, 11:21:53 PM
Dan;
To be perfectly honest with you, I didn't know there were any officially dated 1948, I think maybe prototypes were fabricated in '48, and I'm leaning towards this may be one of them, I really hope it turns out to be 1949.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 24, 2010, 12:07:34 AM
I am back from vacation. I have read thru this thread with interest. There are lot's of good points on this thead and I have "lots" of opinions to add. So I am going down the list and making comments as I go.

First off, Congratulations on the great Karma D/P.
( I like the concept of Karma, You reap what you sow). D/P does good things for the hobby and collector community.

I am curious abot the dial ring. I suspect it is clearcoated or backpainted. Probably clear coat.

Sorry D/P. I don't think it is a '49 , even money on it being a '48 field trial.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 24, 2010, 12:09:33 AM
Noticed that it seems to have front pads attached with screws, like the 302?



Someone on the list mentioned they had an early (50?) 500 w/ 302 feet.

I suspect this set has 302 feet.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 24, 2010, 12:14:08 AM
Jim:

I have a 500 set with 302 feet. Another fine example of the phone company recycling old parts.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 24, 2010, 12:16:40 AM
What would you all do with this phone?  (out of curiosity)  Would you leave as it, give it a good cleanup but leave incomplete, add the missing parts to make it functional, or what? 

I would clean it up, probably would have contracted that job out with one of our pros on the forum as I'm not the best at it.  Certainly would have hooked up a handset to see if it worked.  But then not sure, leave it as found with all the missing parts means it's all original, and it's a very historic phone.  Adding parts needed to use it could give the satisfaction of using it. 

Wonder where the seller got it? 
I would leave it as-is with good intentions on cleaning it up later :D

My opinion on how to show this set,would be to clean it up, and put a clear 500 housing on it.

{Skipping ahead}

The fingerwheel may be an early 302 fingerwheel? If I couldn't get a "proper" fingerwheel, I would use a metal one, I suspect it would fit.

Handset elements should be G style.

The base looks llike Paul F. examples

Most definently contact paul F. Trade info regarding these early sets.

JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 24, 2010, 12:19:57 AM
Glad you got this phone....surely important and rare.  It has me thinking about WE policy regarding what was done with these '49s once production of the 500 was off and running in 1950. This example does look to have been put in the 'Trash' pile of some kind at some point. Provokes a flashback of that huge pile of phones I came across in 1971 as a child fishing along a river in Connecticut. Yours thankfully this phone does not look to have been outside though....no rust.

The Murray Hills Bell Labs is where the transistor was invented in 1947 or 48, earning Bell Labs the Nobel Prize! I'm going to call my Father in law regarding this......for his father, a physicist, worked briefly at Murray Hills during WWII on the development of radar !

This must be a prototype with that writing on the base......unusual to say the least. Never seen that.

As to how to proceed with it.....some of the restoration/display ideas mentioned are good ideas. In a way simply cleaned and left in it's current state and presented at shows would work since it is such a rare item - until research and location of correct parts can be done. It would be among the very few "rough condition" sets to draw a crowd at an event.

Thanks for sharing the photos & details......we've all learned something important about 500 history.

Drew

I have a good "field trial" story that covers about 3 different threads. I will do a New thread for it soon.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 24, 2010, 12:24:54 AM
I'm also leaning towards a field trial set of '48. The only thing I'm unsure of is the O/Operator/Z, number wheel.  That is what is on the Henry Dreyfus phone in his photo.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 24, 2010, 12:27:35 AM
Jorge;
you may be right, I went by what was posted at Pauls site, he said the earliest 500 were C2A. But if this is in fact a prototype it could well be some other ringer. Any ideas what it might be ?
I will re-post the photos tomorrow, after a few inquiries.

D/P


I really lean towards a "48.

More from "gut" instinct than "quotable" referances. However my "gut" instinct is based on what I have learned over the years. I am betting '48.

Now, since you have paid high$ for phone scrap, you won't mind going high when the "birthday" "49 comes round.

It is really a great, great, find.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 24, 2010, 12:32:24 AM
I'm also leaning towards a field trial set of '48. The only thing I'm unsure of is the O/Operator/Z, number wheel.  That is what is on the Henry Dreyfus phone in his photo.
D/P

My understanding is that is the field trial dial plate. ISTR The Known "49 is different, I am thinking the curved operator.

After you get it start a dialoge with Paul F. and swap some info.  Paul has a lot of info that isn't published.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 24, 2010, 12:38:05 AM
Dan;
To be perfectly honest with you, I didn't know there were any officially dated 1948, I think maybe prototypes were fabricated in '48, and I'm leaning towards this may be one of them, I really hope it turns out to be 1949.
D/P

There were "48 sets, These are the first field trials. I found this out when I was researching '49's. Production 500's started in 12/49.

So since you have a (probable) 48 field trial (50 made tested w/ 300 users). Now you need  a '49 field trial ( larger amount made(2,000) . The next set is a 12/49 production model.

Then go from there.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 24, 2010, 12:41:56 AM
Jim:

I have a 500 set with 302 feet. Another fine example of the phone company recycling old parts.


Iwas thinking that someone has a 1950 500 with 302 feet. I don't think that this would be recycling, but more early technology.

Does anyone have a 1950 500 w/ 302 feet?
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 24, 2010, 02:02:16 PM
According to USPS tracking, the chassis is at my post office. I should be able to get it this afternoon.
I will some photos A.S.A.P.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 24, 2010, 02:05:05 PM
Some photos ....  ??? ??? ???, please, make that many high resolution photos!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 24, 2010, 02:12:52 PM
Jorge;
I don't have a photobucket account, and I'm not sure if I can post Hi Res photos to the forum.
I guess it's time I got photobucket.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 24, 2010, 02:16:07 PM
Jorge;
I don't have a photobucket account, and I'm not sure if I can post Hi Res photos to the forum.
I guess it's time I got photobucket.
D/P
Can you convert them to pdf and use yousendit.com  for downloading?
I am sure Doc Remco would like to host some hi Rez photos of this phone. It is a very historical set.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 24, 2010, 02:21:23 PM
D/P:

I suggest Google Picasa. You can upload high resolution pictures there and the interface is nicer.

The forum s/w is also a good way to post pictures. Just reply a few times if you want to include more than 6 pictures.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 24, 2010, 02:29:26 PM

Jorge;
I signed up for Photobucket, now I'll try Picasa.

Jim;
Can I convert photos in Adobe reader?

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 24, 2010, 02:36:27 PM

Jorge;
I signed up for Photobucket, now I'll try Picasa.

Jim;
Can I convert photos in Adobe reader?

D/P

D/P,
I don't think so.
Newer operating system have a convert to PDF option.
I have played with PDFill for converting files. It has several pieces of free software, I liked it so well I paid the $20 for the full version w/ lifetime upgrades.
Pdfill.com

With pdfill you would print the photo to pdfill to convert. Print is used as a transfer command.

Pdfill is nice software, I haven't taken the time to learn it yet.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 24, 2010, 02:57:25 PM
D/P:

I suggest you upload them to the forum, so they become a permanent record in the forum backups.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 24, 2010, 05:15:29 PM
Jorge;
That is what I'm going to do.

I now have possession of the beast.
It is in rough shape, but not real bad, It is kind of like a newborn baby, Not good looking but beautiful.
Here is my take on what I have.
I'm not an expert but based on the evidence, I say it is a field test phone. Not sure of the date, but consensus is that they were 1948.
There is no date , every part is individually numbered, by the number of times 125 appears on the chassis, my guess is it's number 125, there is however another number on the bottom, D177001, my guess that's a Bell labs inventory number.

The finger wheel is plastic, and quite thick, but a duplicate would be very easy to fabricate, and  be almost undetectable. The dial face is one part clear injection molded reversed painted.
The dial itself is numbered 132, and another number of D177008.
The ringer is of the Green clothe covering, Which seems to be Field test. The number on it is 124, and D177006.
Here are some photos for now.

 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 24, 2010, 05:26:34 PM
Very nice, Dan.  One could study those photos for a while.  Will you be posting photos of the dial?  I'd be interested in seeing the back side of the dial....when you get time.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 24, 2010, 05:40:11 PM
Dennis;
Absolutely I will be posting more photos. The dial is like none I've seen before, standard mounting but works are completely alien to me. I want to make absolutely certain how every piece comes apart, before I attempt to remove anything.
Here are 3 shots of the dial inplace. I'll remove it later. Notice plastic gears.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 24, 2010, 05:46:21 PM
D/P, Dennis:

The dial in the picture could be a relative of the 7A dial.

North made a plastic wheel for their dials. It would be interesting to see if a North wheel could be retrofitted into this dial.

The network is interesting. The terminals plate overhangs the box containing all the electronic components.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 24, 2010, 07:14:23 PM
Here are some shots of the dial off the phone. I will have to post twice.
I'm surprised at how relatively clean everything is under the dust.
Note the back plate of the dial is solid aluminum. The contact pile is solid also.
The dial seems very uncomplicated, even to earlier dials, and the later cheap dials. This looks like something they should have stuck with. The dial still turns and returns very smoothly.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 24, 2010, 07:17:32 PM
And a couple more.
The finger stop is very different.
I'm going to remove the finger wheel and see how that's put together.
I love that, O/Operator/Z.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 24, 2010, 07:32:18 PM
D/P:

Very nice pictures. And the dial design, although it looks 9C-ish, it is on its own league.

I wonder if Paul F has seen something like this before. Please, let us know what he comments about the phone. Maybe you can convince him to join the forum and comment on this thread.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 24, 2010, 07:38:33 PM
I agree, Jorge it is very interesting.  Dan, I'm amazed at how clean the dial is inside compared to what the exterior looked like.  Similarities can be seen with the known technology at the time....the governor looks more like what one would see on the earlier dial, although the spring makes it different.  It's interesting also to see the evolution from that dial to what we know with the 7 series dials.  I don't recall if you used the word "alien" but it sure would apply.  Great photos.  I would also be interested in Paul's reaction to your find.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 24, 2010, 07:42:34 PM
Wow Dan Wow, you got a winner here. 1948 looks to be right.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Craig T on March 24, 2010, 08:21:48 PM
Great pics D/P, keep them coming as you go through the phone! Looks like a brass fingerstop? The solid backplate on the dial is cool too, what a great phone.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 24, 2010, 08:31:47 PM
D/P:

I am sure that you are treating this rare phone as a relic from the past, but when you get to the ringer, could you remove it and please post pictures of it by itself also?

Four sides plus top and bottom would be nice. In general, wires carry currents around in electric devices like this, but those pieces of metal over the ringer carry portions of the magnetic flux from the coil and magnet to other areas of the ringer. I am very interested in seeing how they did that back in forties.

If you removed the tape from the bottom, did that reveal a date somewhere?

One last thing, have you tried to see if a standard 500 housing fits well over this chassis?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 24, 2010, 09:01:26 PM
Now some shots of the number plate, and the finger wheel.
First the regular type finger wheel will not fit, the hole in the center though the same exact shape, is much smaller. When I first removed the finger wheel, I noticed a small piece of spring sticking out from under the center.  I thought I had a broken spring. Oh great, now I'm going to have to go down to Radio Shack to get a new one..... ;D ;D ;D
I though I had taken a photo of the broken spring before I took it off, but I didn't.  Well anyways it turned out to be a 60 year old straight pin, as seen in the First photo.
Second picture is of the dial mechanism protective cover, the screw was missing. So far everything is typical W.E. quality.
Notice the second tubular gasket behind the number plate. It's about twice the diameter of the one that goes around the outside of the dial. The one on this phone was there but had a small cracked off piece.
I cleaned up the dial face,  it is constructed of a single piece, injection molded, with the letters and numbers pressed into the plate, They are then painted white, and the entire back is then painted black. In the Radio world called Reverse painted. The numbers are just as permanent as the newer version, so long as you don't scrap away the paint on the back. As you can see it cleaned up rather nicely.
That's all for tonight.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 24, 2010, 09:13:34 PM
Jorge;
I will do the ringer next.
I haven't as of yet tried a 500 cover, as I'm afraid it may not fit, then I don't know what to do after that.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 24, 2010, 09:35:50 PM
Tremendously important find you have here!  And don't we all wish that the handset and shell were with it!!

What a sturdy dial design, and on a solid aluminum plate to boot. 

Here is what Paul F says about the 1948 trial units:

<<<1948  Field Trial of 50 pre-production sets.  (BSTJ*, 4/51)

Aluminum dial mount.
Bell coil wrapped in olive cloth (like 302s B1A).

*Bell System Technical Journal>>>

You've got both the aluminum dial mount and the olive cloth, so it seems like a slam dunk ID, and perhaps the only one to survive.

Keep the pictures coming as you get the chance please, they are very enjoyable.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 24, 2010, 09:39:55 PM
Here is a photo of the chassis under a '51 soft plastic  shell. It's the oldest I have.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 24, 2010, 09:44:27 PM
Looking good D/P. I am sure Dennis Hallworth can provide you with some pads to fit this phone.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Steve on March 24, 2010, 09:51:36 PM

 Dan/Panther,

 first off, I am happy for you!

that's a good score, you must have eagle eyes!

how does it feel to hold history in your hands?

when you put a case and handset on this you will have to call all the  Rotary Phone Forum members on it. you will make the other forums jealous :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Steve on March 24, 2010, 09:53:55 PM

 I feel like a kid at Christmas, and I didn't even get a present!

keep the photos coming.

CONGRATS!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 24, 2010, 09:55:58 PM
Dan, not to take anything away from any other posts from this forum, but this series of posts by you has to be the most interesting ones I can remember reading---at least to me.

Were you able to get any historical information from the seller?  Where has it been?  How did he happen to come upon it??

It would be nice to know where it's been all these years---kicked around from place to place.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: LarryInMichigan on March 24, 2010, 10:10:26 PM
I am really surprised that a 500 shell fits this base.  It looks like the screws align properly also.  I imagine that, in 1948, WE had already decided on the external appearance of the phone, as per Dreyfuss's new design, and that they were experimenting with the internal electrical/mechanical design.

Larry
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 24, 2010, 10:39:52 PM
That is a really interesting dial.
D#'s are usually Field trial or low production type items. Paul F said he may have some BSP's of some of the parts. The date and issuses of the Bsp's may help pin a date on the phone.

My vote is still for the '48 model I suspect you could sell that dial for more than you paid for the phone (I know you wouldn't, but I expect you could).

That is a very historical phone. You need to display it at the next show you attend.
Great find,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 24, 2010, 10:48:45 PM
Dan, not to take anything away from any other posts from this forum, but this series of posts by you has to be the most interesting ones I can remember reading---at least to me.

Were you able to get any historical information from the seller?  Where has it been?  How did he happen to come upon it??

It would be nice to know where it's been all these years---kicked around from place to place.

I second what Dennis said--I would love to know the history. My guess it was picked up at a land fill site. Amazing that the dial turns freely. Please hook up a receiver and a line cord.... You can recreate "Frankenstein'--It's alive , it's alive!!!! tremendously exciting stuff!! I bet you the network still works!!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Netdewt on March 24, 2010, 11:37:24 PM
This is really cool. Part of what I love is that you guys are obsessed about these phones enough to be able to recognize this, and the seller had no clue. Beautiful.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 24, 2010, 11:38:19 PM
Looks like a couple of 302 feet will work on that just fine.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 24, 2010, 11:42:32 PM
Yeah Dennis this is a very fascinating series of pictures, perhaps we ought to collect them and put them in a separate locked thread as a historical reference.  I've never seen any pictures of the 48' models, and it seems clear that WE had pretty much figured the 500 out by this point.  

It looks like they greatly simplified the dial for the production model, probably a cost reason.  I read in the 1950 press conference that the 500 cost more to make than the 302 but they figured that was okay as it would be more durable and they would get the money back in savings from less maintenance.  

Are you planning to see if this phone works D/P?  

Yeah Netdewt, the phone OCD runs deep here. ;)  This is perhaps the find of the decade when it comes to the model 500, heck maybe the find of the century.  It makes me wonder exactly what this phone is worth, we saw a prototype touch tone, in a 302 case, go for $17,000 last year.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 24, 2010, 11:49:39 PM
The real surprise is that the owner even bothered listing this phone.
The before photo looks like something most people would throw away.

The seller now has a great Ebay story to tell his friends.

D/P has a great "early 500" story to tell his friends.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: GusHerb on March 24, 2010, 11:56:58 PM
1948 would make it 62 years old, something like this makes it amazing to think about where it's been all those 62 years.
The dial gear's are layed out shockingly simple compared to later 500s.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 24, 2010, 11:59:28 PM
I don't know how to respond except to say, I'm just relaying my excitement to you guys through photos. It has to be one of the highlights of my life. I look at the photo with Henry Dreyfus and his Pre-Production 500, with the same dial face that this one has, and I wonder, Could this be that very phone?
I will definitely contact the seller, but then maybe I should just hope he lists more of the same. I told him to watch out for phones and parts, and he lives near Murray Hill, he said he will be keeping his eyes open.
I was concerned that I would either have to leave the phone dirty or take something away cleaning it up. It turns out, the chassis is not that bad, parts that are dirtiest are the ones that need replaced anyhow, like the finger wheel. I plan to inquire with some tool makers to see about having a duplicate wheel made. It appears that the phone has an oily coating of sorts on everything, and Q-tips takes it off and underneath it's pretty clean.

The Dial for example, all I did was wipe away the dirt and it looks like new underneath, that number plate was wiped with a very mild liquid soap and lukewarm water, a very soft brush and it cleaned up nice, all of the what appeared, to be scratches, were just in the dirt. It has one very small scratch at the number 10 spot, right above the finger stop.
As far as it coming apart, it's the easiest phone I've ever taken down this far, screws come out easy, none are even scored a bit. Very minimal amount of parts.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 25, 2010, 12:11:44 AM
Hmm, I wonder if this phone spent it life on a shelf someplace, never really used, and then got tossed around a bit towards the end?  Who knows what lurks in the Bell Labs nooks and crannies, maybe that's where it came from, someone was doing Spring cleaning and out it went.

The way the dial bezel is made seems like the way the it is made on my late 60's Stromberg Carlson, pressed in the letters/numbers, painted, then the black added. 

I bet if you could make duplicates of the dial bezel you could easily sell them to us phone phiends. 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 12:23:05 AM
Hmm, I wonder if this phone spent it life on a shelf someplace, never really used, and then got tossed around a bit towards the end?  Who knows what lurks in the Bell Labs nooks and crannies, maybe that's where it came from, someone was doing Spring cleaning and out it went.

The way the dial bezel is made seems like the way the it is made on my late 60's Stromberg Carlson, pressed in the letters/numbers, painted, then the black added. 

I bet if you could make duplicates of the dial bezel you could easily sell them to us phone phiends. 

Bell had clear dial rings w/ the imprints. I have seen full clear dial rings (no paint) on clear 500's. I also have a clear ring w/ white letters (1958 soft plastic Phone display set). I have a back painted "Howard Johnson" dial (white letters) and I suspect that they had them w/ black letters as well.

These rings were back painted for custom color sets. The rings are hard to find.

I am always on the look out for some of these for my collection.
Jim

Regarding oddball Bell stuff, I have gotten some of my more interesting Items that were back door company stuff. Some of my hard-to-find clear items were seconds. I think they were tossed and scrounged. I find it amusing that some of my more interesting items were the "trash" when they were made.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 12:28:23 AM
The dial face is molded from clear plastic, then the white color is painted in the recessed numbers and letters, then the black overcoat is added to the back. If you hold it up to the light it has a very obvious depth to it.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 25, 2010, 12:41:34 AM
Looking good D/P. I am sure Dennis Hallworth can provide you with some pads to fit this phone.

Long story but unfortunately I only have one that is the screw-on 500 shape.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 12:44:01 AM
Looking good D/P. I am sure Dennis Hallworth can provide you with some pads to fit this phone.

Long story but unfortunately I only have one that is the screw-on 500 shape.

Dennis

That is 1/2 as many as D/P.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 25, 2010, 12:45:12 AM
Looks like a couple of 302 feet will work on that just fine.

I just compared the dimples on the 500 screw-on with the dimples on a 302 and they do not line up.  The 302 footpads will not sit flush on the 500 base plate.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 12:48:10 AM
Looks like a couple of 302 feet will work on that just fine.

I just compared the dimples on the 500 screw-on with the dimples on a 302 and they do not line up.  The 302 footpads will not sit flush on the 500 base plate.

Dennis
Do you think D/P would be able to thread rivet 500 feet to match?
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 25, 2010, 12:48:57 AM
Looking good D/P. I am sure Dennis Hallworth can provide you with some pads to fit this phone.

Long story but unfortunately I only have one that is the screw-on 500 shape.

Dennis

That is 1/2 as many as D/P.
Jim

He can have it if he wants.  At least he will be at 3/4.  It is not doing any good sitting in my basement.

Also interesting the 500 screw-on does not have a felt cushion like the 302 or the 500 riveted do.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on March 25, 2010, 12:52:42 AM
D/P, I view each installment like a gripping drama I tune into every night.

Of course I'm not from the "right" side of the pond here, but can appreciate how much excitement this find is causing, its like industrial archaelogy.

And besides I love my 500's too!

As an aside, doesn't the ex Bell system companies keep much in the way of development designs or sets? Or was a lot of the paper and physical archive lost upon break-up?

Can't wait for the next episode, actually when you're done with it, this find and the story would merit its own website.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 01:01:58 AM
Here is a thread from bitso phone 5302.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=1887.msg25484#msg25484

It is a message I posted when the subject of early 500's was on my mind.

Mc Heath posted this link for the press conference of the '49 set::
http://www.telephonecollectors.org/DocumentLibrary/WesternElectric/500-Set-Design-1949.pdf

There is a lot of good info on early 500 sets scattered in the 5302 thread.
A posting I find amusing is from D/P

My guess would be,  they knew where all the early 500's were, and were recalled for inspection and probably torn down.
JMHO.
D/P


Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 25, 2010, 01:11:58 AM
Looks like a couple of 302 feet will work on that just fine.

I just compared the dimples on the 500 screw-on with the dimples on a 302 and they do not line up.  The 302 footpads will not sit flush on the 500 base plate.

Dennis
Do you think D/P would be able to thread rivet 500 feet to match?
Jim

Three problems with tapping a rivet type:

1.  The plate that would be tapped is only 0.030" thick and would barely get one turn.  It might be enough to hold but just marginally.  A 302 screw hole when blanked before tapping is extended and is close to 0.070".
2.  The rivet type plate is flat unlike the 302 which has a recess to allow the end of the screw to clear to not push into the leather.
3.  I just ran a 6-32 tap in a rivet plate and the hole is too big in diameter to get the full depth of the thread.  Not enough material to get a screw thread to grab.  It could be done but would need the next larger size screw to work.  Maybe a metric thread would work.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 01:12:42 AM
Here is another forum link for the 1949 treasure map.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=1910.msg25564#msg25564

D/P didn't follow the map, but I count his photos as the postings I requested.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 01:16:42 AM
It is really baffling to me that they would go to all the trouble to copy almost exactly the 302 foot pad design, yet make them totally different as far as mounting goes. The 302 is more of a straight triangular shape, whereas the 500 pads are rounded on the inside edge.
Not compatible.
And a shame.
Dennis let me know what you would want for the pad, 3 is better than 2.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 01:18:31 AM
I just read thru the thread I posted. It seems D/P had a lot of moral support on his quest. I sense a "Twilight Zone" theme to D/P's find.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 25, 2010, 01:20:24 AM
It is really baffling to me that they would go to all the trouble to copy almost exactly the 302 foot pad design, yet make them totally different as far as mounting goes. The 302 is more of a straight triangular shape, whereas the 500 pads are rounded on the inside edge.
Not compatible.
And a shame.
Dennis let me know what you would want for the pad, 3 is better than 2.
D/P

Name and Address - I'll mail it to you.

Dennis

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 01:29:09 AM
Jim;
It is almost spooky, Bwanna even said; "d/p should get the '49, as it would be his birthday phone".
I consider this phone to be close enough to satisfy that comment also.
I have spent the better part of my life collecting and enjoying vintage items, but his single item is heads and shoulders above all of the other items combined. I feel very, very, fortunate to have been able to obtain this phone. I wish I could share the feeling I have, when I look at it, an imagine what journey brought it where it is now.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 01:29:41 AM
It is really baffling to me that they would go to all the trouble to copy almost exactly the 302 foot pad design, yet make them totally different as far as mounting goes. The 302 is more of a straight triangular shape, whereas the 500 pads are rounded on the inside edge.
Not compatible.
And a shame.
Dennis let me know what you would want for the pad, 3 is better than 2.
D/P

Name and Address - I'll mail it to you.

Dennis


That is a great donation to the cause, Dennis.
Hopefully someone can contribute #4.

As you can tell D/P, We are all excited for you. That is a truly historic find.
Jim

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 01:33:26 AM
Reading thru my map, I realized you bought this from a seller in the city they were returned to. Therefore. you met the map's requirement. so the posting are quite valid. I was going to accept them anyway, but now I have to.  ;D


Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 25, 2010, 01:40:47 AM
It is really baffling to me that they would go to all the trouble to copy almost exactly the 302 foot pad design, yet make them totally different as far as mounting goes. The 302 is more of a straight triangular shape, whereas the 500 pads are rounded on the inside edge.
Not compatible.
And a shame.
Dennis let me know what you would want for the pad, 3 is better than 2.
D/P

Name and Address - I'll mail it to you.

Dennis


That is a great donation to the cause, Dennis.
Hopefully someone can contribute #4.

As you can tell D/P, We are all excited for you. That is a truly historic find.
Jim



Before we get too excited I just pulled apart the footpad I have and compared it to D/P picture and it is not a match.  The one I have has two dimples like a 302 but I went back to the picture of the base plate and there are no holes for dimples and the area around the mounting hole looks like a raised triangle shape.

This one will not work and because of the raised triangle area the rivet type will not work either.

Sorry folks.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 01:44:19 AM
Dennis;
Thank you, when I get another one I will have you recover all 4. Mine may do, but yours will DO JUSTICE to the project.
Thanks anyhow Dennis, they will, show up.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 01:45:43 AM
Dennis,
Do you have an opinion on a modified foot? Is there a production foot that could be easily modified for a "place holder"?

Your foot may be for the '49 model. It isn't a far guess.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 25, 2010, 02:08:51 AM
Dennis,
Do you have an opinion on a modified foot? Is there a production foot that could be easily modified for a "place holder"?

Your foot may be for the '49 model. It isn't a far guess.
JMO,
Jim

I will do some work on it tomorrow.  The one I have has a circular recess on the plate the fits against the base plate that is about 1/2" in diameter.  This should fit over the raised triangle.  I will press out the dimples so it fits flat. 

I compared it to a 500 leather footpad and it is the same shape but a little higher (0.270").  This may work as an interim until the originals are found.

I think the one I have maybe some type of Galion other than a 7H6.  If it works maybe one of those can be found for the fourth corner.  At least it will be better than going barefoot.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 02:12:43 AM
4 matching non-original screw feet might be a good route to go for displaying the phone. The original feet could be displayed next to it with a "wanted" sign.

Just a thought.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on March 25, 2010, 03:56:59 AM
I am just so very excited for you!!!  Seeing all the pics, I think I felt as excited as you have.  It's just been so great to read all of this!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on March 25, 2010, 08:39:57 AM
Surely this is among the most important post on 500 development this forum has seen.  This link Jim S. provided 'Bell Labs Notes on Conference', May 1949 is very informative - http://www.telephonecollectors.org/DocumentLibrary/WesternElectric/500-Set-Design-1949.pdf   On page 108, the mention of "throwing Test models to the floor" is a bit painful to read but this is what is done in the development process.  It might explain the rough shape of your find D/P.....a victim of Bell Labs abuse !

Great photos you've provided...a whole new look at the very first 500's,  thank you.

Drew
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 09:43:05 AM
I had a though about the feet, and wondered what the Galion feet looked like. This morning I turned over my Galion, and much to my surprise they are the same shape as the 500. Rounded on the inside, and not flat like the 302's. I haven't pull one yet, but I sure hope it's an internal match.
I have to take my dog to the vets today, so will be tied up until later.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 25, 2010, 10:39:25 AM
I had a though about the feet, and wondered what the Galion feet looked like. This morning I turned over my Galion, and much to my surprise they are the same shape as the 500. Rounded on the inside, and not flat like the 302's. I haven't pull one yet, but I sure hope it's an internal match.
I have to take my dog to the vets today, so will be tied up until later.
D/P

I just saw another post about screw on feet on a 500.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2407.0

It would be good to check them against these.  Drew says his are 1953 and I would be curious if they have the triangle depression.

I think Galions could be modified to fit.  They have On the Galions I have seen the screw goes from the outside to the inside and would need a nut on the inside to hold it.  I will take some pictures tonight of the various footpad plates to compare.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: wecoguy on March 25, 2010, 11:19:25 AM
Dan --  You have found a treasure!  It would appear to be the base and dial from one of the telephones used in 1949 field trials of the 500 set conducted by WECo and a few of the Operating Telephone Companies.  A probable reason for the wording on the base is that if the set failed for any reason during the trial, Bell Labs engineers wanted to know why.  They did not want anyone in the field trying to "trouble shoot" the failure.

The lettering on the dial at the "0" position IS indicative of trial sets as pictures from Paul Fassbender show.  Later, the "Z"  was dropped and the word "operator" was moved to a semicircle under the "0".  This arrangement was used briefly on production sets until sometime between June and December of 1950 when "operator" was moved the the gentle arc outside the "0" where it remained for the rest of the production life of the 500 set.

The shape of the plunger levers is certainly early as horizontal ones never made it into production.

As for the box to the left of the dial.  That is a 311A equalizer.  the 425 network was optimized for long loop performance to match the needs of the outside plant as it spread to suburbia and rural locations.  The 311A functioned to attenuate the louder signals when the set was located near a Central Office or on a PBX extension.  Improvements to the 425 network resulted in the production of the 425B which eliminated the need for the 311A equalizer.

For anyone reading this who is a member of Telephone Collectors International (TCI). Paul and I collaborated on a series of articles relating to the development of the 500 set.  These were published in the TCI newsletter beginning in January 2009 and concluded in August 2009.

Regrettably, your recent purchase is missing the housing and handset.  Although that detracts somewhat from having a complete set, the value and extreme rarity of what you have is GREAT.  The fact that the early dial number ring as used in the field trials is present is FANTASTIC.  In my mind, you got a bargain at $224!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 25, 2010, 01:00:03 PM
I had a though about the feet, and wondered what the Galion feet looked like. This morning I turned over my Galion, and much to my surprise they are the same shape as the 500. Rounded on the inside, and not flat like the 302's. I haven't pull one yet, but I sure hope it's an internal match.
I have to take my dog to the vets today, so will be tied up until later.
D/P

I just saw another post about screw on feet on a 500.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2407.0

It would be good to check them against these.  Drew says his are 1953 and I would be curious if they have the triangle depression.

I think Galions could be modified to fit.  They have On the Galions I have seen the screw goes from the outside to the inside and would need a nut on the inside to hold it.  I will take some pictures tonight of the various footpad plates to compare.

Dennis

I looked at pictures of the telephone mentioned by Drew.  It has 500 riveted footpads that someone used a screw and nut to put on.  You can see the dimples on the footpad plate.  Definitely not the same as D/P.

D/P - one thing you can check is if the circular recess on the Galion footpad will clear the triangular bump on your 500 base plate.  For now do not worry about the dimples.

If that one clears then the one I have will clear the bump.  Using only leather (no cushion) the thickness of the footpad will be about the same size and shape as a 500 rivet-on type with a cushion which should match what you have.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 25, 2010, 01:20:29 PM
I had a though about the feet, and wondered what the Galion feet looked like. This morning I turned over my Galion, and much to my surprise they are the same shape as the 500. Rounded on the inside, and not flat like the 302's. I haven't pull one yet, but I sure hope it's an internal match.
I have to take my dog to the vets today, so will be tied up until later.
D/P

I just saw another post about screw on feet on a 500.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2407.0

It would be good to check them against these.  Drew says his are 1953 and I would be curious if they have the triangle depression.

I think Galions could be modified to fit.  They have On the Galions I have seen the screw goes from the outside to the inside and would need a nut on the inside to hold it.  I will take some pictures tonight of the various footpad plates to compare.

Dennis

I looked at pictures of the telephone mentioned by Drew.  It has 500 riveted footpads that someone used a screw and nut to put on.  You can see the dimples on the footpad plate.  Definitely not the same as D/P.

D/P - one thing you can check is if the circular recess on the Galion footpad will clear the triangular bump on your 500 base plate.  For now do not worry about the dimples.

If that one clears then the one I have will clear the bump.  Using only leather (no cushion) the thickness of the footpad will be about the same size and shape as a 500 rivet-on type with a cushion which should match what you have.

Dennis
I think I may have a lead on an alternate footpad.  I found a North Electric TP-6-A (Army Signal Corp) and the footpad looks like the one I have.  It is shaped like a 500 rivet-on but it must be screwed on from the inside out.  This is different from the Galion which screws on from the outside in and you can see the screw head on the outside.  You can see one on ebay number 370351955263.  If this works maybe Steve Hiltz would have some available.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 01:44:05 PM
Dennis;
Thanks for all your help, nothing is more encouraging than people in know, offering as freely as everyone has to help me solve this mystery, and the reward being we can all 5reflect and enjoy that one more piece of a very big puzzle is in place. I want to thank you all sincerely for your advice, information, and offers, none will be forgotten thanks every body.

I'm currently in contact with Paul, sending photos and answering his questions. He has promised to comment to the forum, as soon as all the facts are known. He is busy this week with previous commitments but says he should be able to give a good assessment by the beginning of the week, or maybe a little sooner.

wecoguy;
I had kind of thought that it was a 48 field Test, but nothing would make me happier than to confirm you are correct and that it falls intro the 1949 year, which makes it my Birth Year. I will be holding my breath until That definitive answer is posted.

I hope to be able to say I own a 1949 W.E. model 500, Field Test or Production is not of major concern. Either from 1949, was a goal I felt I would not achieve.

I hope later today to be able to examine the ringer.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 01:52:31 PM
Dennis;
I think you may have found something. The base of that Galion even looks different than the two I have.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 02:27:17 PM
I'm getting ready to remove the ringer for photos for Jorge and Paul. Before I disconnected everything, I attached a pigtail line cord, and plugged it in and dial my home phone number.
I bet you want to know what happened don't you.


IT'S ALIVE, with that sweet sounding and familar 500 ring....These phones seem bullet proof.....

Photos of the ringer out of the chassis to follow shortly.

 D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 25, 2010, 07:40:14 PM
i just read this exciting saga from beginning to end....again! i get goosebumps every time. :) i certainly appreciate the education  on early 500 sets.

it is unfortunate that the fingewheel is broken, but i would not replace it. only if you could find the exact same one. normally i would not oppose making a whole phone out of various parts. this is the one instance when i do. it would be ok to fabricate the 2 missing feet, until the right ones could be found. i don't think i would add any handset either. unless you knew for sure exactly which handset (&components) would have been on it.

in my opinion this is a historical artifact that should not be altered.  i like the the idea of covering with a clear chassis for display purposes. i would not consider this an alteration, merely a protective cover.

on second thought about the fingerwheel. would it be possible to manufacture just the missing portion, in order to make the original whole again?

d/p, i am just so happy for you! and thankful that you were able to bring such an important piece of history to our little world.

i think we should revisit the idea of our forum BBQ. d/p & his magnificent find can be the guests of honor ;)

keep the photos & information coming!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 25, 2010, 07:45:57 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xos2MnVxe-c&feature=related


YES !! DAN/P YES! Was there any doubt it wouldn't ring?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 08:56:12 PM
Thank you Donna, I appreciate that.
Dan; For a second, I thought someone had video recorded me in my shop.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 09:06:22 PM
Here are some shots of the ringer removed from the chassis.
Notice in the third photo the two taped screw hole, This must have been for an alternate use of the ringer.


I must ask exactly what does everyone consider acceptable as far as cleaning things up is concerned. So far I've used Q-Tips, and a very mild cleaner on the metal parts, and on the plastic parts, warm soapy water to remove the grime. What would be considered a no-no ?

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 09:14:03 PM
Paul has requested that I remove the tape residue from the bottom so as to see if any other markings are present. One problem. The tape was Duct tape, and the glue has tried very hard. Does anyone know of a sure fire, and mild way to remove the dried tape residue, without using a harsh cleaner of solvent, which may damage the black finish, or damage any markings, as some of the green marking is covered by the residue. Also the word LOUD is directly above the arrow pointing, and is under the tape residue.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 25, 2010, 09:21:24 PM
I have attached three pictures.

The first shows the different (302, 500 rivet-on, Galion and mystery) footpad inner plates.  This is the one that is against the base plate when the footpad is mounted.  Unlike the D/P footpad all have dimples for alignment (which can easily be removed) and a circular recess to fit on the base plate.  The D/P has a triangular recess rather then circular and no dimples.  If the circular recess does not fit over the triangular bump in the base plate, I am sure it can be modified to fit.

The second picture is the outer plates.  This is the side that sits on whatever surface the phone is placed.  All but the 500 has a recess.  The recess is needed when the screw is used to attach the footpad to the base.  This rules out the 500 rivet-on type.

The last picture is how each footpad looks when attached to the baseplate.  The 500 rivet-on and Galion use outside to inside connection so they would not work.  The 302 has the flat top rather than curved so it is not desired.  The Unknown is a little smaller and a little less rounded to the shape but two mounted on the back end should be very difficult to see the differences.  The heights are the same so that will not be an issue.

I believe the Unkown is from a North Electric TP-6-A.  I have found that the TP-6-A (Army Signal Corp phone) were made by Connecticut, North Electric and WECo.  I have never seen any of them and do not know what manufacturer used the leather footpad.

D/P - can I get some dimensions on the triangular recess on your footpad?  If this is acceptable, I can take the dimples out and do any changes that may make it easier for this to fit.  Also we need to find another one.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 25, 2010, 09:24:52 PM
dan,  try removing most of the dried tape with a razor blade. but stop before you scratch the paint. then lay a soaking wet soapy washcloth on the spot for a while. if that doesn't loosen the residue, maybe goo gone or denatured alcohol. use the chemicals very sparingly until you see what the results are.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 09:25:28 PM
Paul has requested that I remove the tape residue from the bottom so as to see if any other markings are present. One problem. The tape was Duct tape, and the glue has tried very hard. Does anyone know of a sure fire, and mild way to remove the dried tape residue, without using a harsh cleaner of solvent, which may damage the black finish, or damage any markings, as some of the green marking is covered by the residue. Also the word LOUD is directly above the arrow pointing, and is under the tape residue.

D/P
I like citrus based adhesive remover. It is mild and I don't think it would hurt anything. The stuff I have on hand is

3M Adhesive remover citrus base. It is solvent free and food-grade. It is citrus extract and propane. It may attack some plastics.

I got this from a countertop guy.

sandman.com sells a lemon based adhesive remover

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 25, 2010, 09:32:41 PM
I have used goo-gone with success  also. I find it interesting the gongs are painted A  & B and not stamped like later ones.

I would clean it exactly like you are doing.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 25, 2010, 09:35:21 PM
I vote for goo-gone as well, it's a great cleaner but not harsh.

I think you are cleaning it up well, like I said earlier it's in good hands.

And who among us is amazed that it works??? :D

That ringer is seriously overbuilt. 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 09:36:04 PM
Regarding tape residue. I have been told by a coin collector that the make a n adhesive remover to remove old tape from currency. You could probably find some at a coin dealer.

I would not scrape the residue.



Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jester on March 25, 2010, 09:38:05 PM
I've used spray silicone lubricant on stubborn adhesives with good results.  Coat the area liberally & let it soak in for a few minutes.  Then gently massage with a soft toothbrush or the pad of your thumb.  When all is removed, a soft rag is all you need to remove the remaining lubricant, which will polish the finish on the base quite nicely.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 09:41:00 PM
Dennis;
The Galion appears to have the largest relief. I wonder if an appropriate nut could be sandwiched inside of the Galion foot so it could be screwed on from the inside. Anything between the foot and the frame would not show, and the Galion is about the best match for shape.
Here are a couple more ringer shots. The aluminum inner baffle unlike later 500's these are glued to the frame. The glue residue is very apparent and I'm not about to try to force them off.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 09:47:45 PM
I will start with the mildest, which appears to be Goo-gone.
Any objection to removing the tarnish from the ringer gongs, the insides are near mint, and the outsides are just slightly tarnished. A light treatmnet will bring them back to normal, I'm not suggesting a polished look, just to remove the darkness.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 25, 2010, 09:48:38 PM
I have been noticing the part#'s
D117xxx
With the last 3 digits being on different parts.

I would  guess that D117 was the main code for this version on 500

the xxx#'s are for the parts. The part#'s seem to start @001 and looks like they are probably sequential.

I would like to see a list of the parts and their #'s added to the list of accumulated info.

I am thinking proper handset elements may be D117xxx  #'s

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 25, 2010, 09:53:34 PM
i think the trick on removing the tape will be to let the goo gone soak into the residue. i suggested using the razor blade first because sometimes dried duct tape will flake right off with a little scraping. this leaves just a thin layer of adhesive to deal with. good luck.
 i vote for removing the tarnish on the gongs.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Wallphone on March 25, 2010, 10:12:10 PM
You might want to get the gongs looking a little better, as you suggested.
Don't forget about trying WD40 for the duct tape.
Let me know what you decide for feet.
I might have a donor phone I can get some off of.
Dougpav
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 25, 2010, 10:19:16 PM
Dan, the earlier C Series ringers had the gong baffles pressed on.  It is not unusual to find the early ones like that. I never noticed adhesive on those.

I would avoid cleaning the gongs.  You don't want to remove those A & B designations by accident. 

It's interesting to see how the ringer was modified for production.  But the basic design is the same. 

Nice photos.  If you can take one more from directly above, looking down, we haven't seen that view.

Thanks, Dan.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 10:34:46 PM
Jim;
The Chassis is numbered D117001, then followed by 125, and parts that are riveted to the chassis like the line switch mechanism is numbered 125 also, but the network portion riveted to the Chassis is 209, and the Equalizer is numbered 35 on the housing, but the insides are numbered D177018-35
I'm thinking the D117 is like you say, the 125, I'm thinking may be the number in a sequence, like 125, of 200 ?
The ringer is numbered D117006, then 124, I'm not seeing a definitive pattern to the 3 digits numbers.

Bwanna;
I think a soak is the answer. I'll try it where no graphics are located so I don't screw up.
D/P


Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 25, 2010, 10:38:07 PM
The last photo I posted was from above, would you like a closer shot ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 25, 2010, 10:39:18 PM
I'd clean the gongs a bit, but be careful of the lettering eh.  A good clean and removal of all dirt is helpful in preservation of pretty much anything, from what I know, which may be wrong but is what I've read and heard over the years.

Really interested to hear what Paul F has to say about it.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 25, 2010, 10:44:13 PM
I also vote to leave the gongs alone. I like the original patina.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Craig T on March 25, 2010, 10:49:41 PM
I leave the original patina on the bells on any of my personal phones. Just in case you are looking for something in b/w, there is cleaner you can get that will clean the black or dirt color out while leaving the patina intact.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 25, 2010, 11:05:50 PM
Sorry about that Dan. That one's fine.  I was wondering if there was any writing on the ringer where it appears on the other ringers we're familiar with.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 25, 2010, 11:19:08 PM
D/P:

Excellent documentation of the Grand Daddy of the 500!

I like to use 70% Isopropyl alcohol plus Q tips to clean everything under the hood EXCEPT ink markings. Those will go away forever when cleaned with alcohol. Of course, is it better to go slow. Just remember those guys in museums cleaning old bones. They use very small brushes and tools to prevent doing damage to things that are one of a kind.

I suggest not removing any screws near the magnet and coil in the ringer. It is a known fact that it will render the ringer weak and perhaps not ring at all. The gong screws are OK to remove.

Alcohol can be used to clean the black base, but use caution around the ink markings. And of course, test with a Q tip to see if it dissolves the black paint away. If it does, plain clean water should be more than enough. The top of the 425B network tolerates alcohol very well. I have gotten excellent results cleaning all screws by rinsing them in a small capped glass container with acetone (in a well ventilated, spark free environment). Shake for a minute and let the acetone evaporate over a clean paper towel.

Keep the pictures coming!  And thank you for sharing your treasure.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2010, 12:41:30 AM
Love your analogy Jorge. Imagine someone who couldn't care less about a telephone reading your analogy about treating it like a rare dinosaur bone..... Heck there are tons of dino bones out there, but this is the first '49 I've seen!

I wish the owner  who has a '49  would present pictures .Maybe it's a myth.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 01:20:40 AM

I wish the owner  who has a '49  would present pictures .Maybe it's a myth.

Dan;
It was explained to me that the reason the owner of the only known 49-500 won't share the photos etc. is the owner is afraid that he will be robbed for the phone.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 26, 2010, 01:25:55 AM
Dennis;
The Galion appears to have the largest relief. I wonder if an appropriate nut could be sandwiched inside of the Galion foot so it could be screwed on from the inside. Anything between the foot and the frame would not show, and the Galion is about the best match for shape.
Here are a couple more ringer shots. The aluminum inner baffle unlike later 500's these are glued to the frame. The glue residue is very apparent and I'm not about to try to force them off.
D/P

I used nickel silver brazing rod and a MAPP gas torch to braze nuts to the Gallion outer plates then filed it flush to the plate.  The nut has to be outside the outer plate to hold the footpad on.

Then I hammered out the dimples on the inner plate and put leather covers on them.  I'll let you fit them to the base plate.

I'll put them in the mail in the morning.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 01:41:14 AM
Here are 5 more photos of the chassis minus the dial. This is about as much cleaning as I plan to do. I feel any more cleaning would be over doing it.
Of course I will still finish the bottom.
At that point I will decide what to do from there. Or rather ask for suggestions what to do from there.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 01:43:56 AM
Dennis;
Read the post I just put up directly after yours. I didn't read your until after I posted mine. WOW!! absolutely fabulous.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 01:54:50 AM
When it came time to distribute the test, and trial sets, how did they select the recipients ?
I would assume they were not just randomly placed. I would guess maybe important clients, family, executives of Bell Labs ?
Any idea how this was accomplished ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 26, 2010, 06:16:39 AM
nice work d/p  & dennis!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bingster on March 26, 2010, 07:10:00 AM
There's something about that tape residue that has me thinking...

Since the residue stops at the edge of the base plate, rather than going up the side lip, that would seem to indicate that there was a shell on the phone when the duct tape was applied.  Duct tape hasn't been a universal household staple forever, I don't think, so it seems to me that the shell hasn't been missing for all that long.  Which would be very sad.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 26, 2010, 09:02:15 AM
Looking at the first photos, we can see that the mounting screws are there and in good shape.  So the housing was probably removed without force.  Dan/P I'm wondering if you communicated with the seller.  Any chance he has any part of the housing or other parts?  Did he give you any of the story of how he came upon this?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Doug Rose on March 26, 2010, 09:07:59 AM
DP.....be careful with the Goo be Gone. Make sure it will not remove the lettering on the bottom of the phone. Test is on another phone with lettering. I have had it remove or smudge lettering. It is coming out beautiful!...DOug
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 26, 2010, 09:26:00 AM
Those newly fabricated feet are fantastic!  And it really needs to have feet on all corners to protect it from wear and damage, so this is a really good idea.  Great job dencins/Dennis!

You've done really well on the cleanup, and it reveals the overall good condition of the phone.  I concur with others that a shell must have been on this phone most of it's life and only recently came off.  Recall how dirty the face of the dial bezel was.  And why would anyone put duct tape on the bottom?  That's a sign that someone did not really value it or perhaps know just how rare it was.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on March 26, 2010, 09:27:04 AM
This is a heck of a story.   I'm really enjoying watching the progress, as well as all the help and great ideas from others.  Dan/Panther, congratulations on a fantastic find and your quality work bringing this one back.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 10:13:27 AM
I would be curious how long the gray Duct tape has been around. I did wonder why the tape was there. This is what I think may have happened. The shell was on the phone without the screws being tightened. Maybe at some point, someone removed the tape, and possibly that is when thew finger wheel was broken off, it stuck to the tape. The ends of the tape looks like it was cut with a sharp object, between the base and shell.
I will get back with the seller, and see if maybe he can shed more light. I've been monitoring his auctions and didn't want to seem over anxious to see what he may find, but maybe this a is more important than future maybes.
I really am pleased with how the chassis looks, I didn't have to rub very hard to get 75% of the grime off. The base is still going to be a chore.

The original feet are in fairly good condition, should I have Dennis redo them, or leave them as is ? If they clear the relief on the bottom of the phone chassis, Dennis' feet are almost perfect  match, the shape is right on, and any modifications he did will not show, and I see no reason for them to be removed in the future.
The protective cover for the dial was missing the mounting screw,  I THINK it was a brass, pretty much like the ones holding on the covers of later models, but it would have to be about twice as long. Once I find the proper screw I can remount the dial and the base will be mostly complete.
Originally I favored a black, soft shell, but I think maybe the clear shell with Black handset and cords (Original Design ) would look better.
D/P 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 10:32:20 AM
I want to give a thank you to Michael Bachefski of New Jersey, for having the insight to at least think the phone had some value to someone, and for listing this gem on Ebay. If he had thought: "No one wants this piece of junk". Can you imagine it now in a dumpster someplace.

Oh! BTW, when O received the phone the handset cord, and line cord spade connectors were still attached to the networks, they had been cut off with diagonal side cutters. One thing to note, only the Red, and Green wire spade connectors  were attached to the network. That tells me the phone may have been in use recently. No Yellow or Black terminal wire on the phone. It appears someone opened the phone, clipped the wires for what ever reason and left the spade connectors on the network. That makes me think maybe it was part of a bigger pile and someone was just salvaging parts and placing them in separate piles ???


D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bingster on March 26, 2010, 10:42:14 AM
The plot thickens!

Regarding the feet... It's just one man's opinion, but there's no way on earth I'd alter the original feet that were on it when you got it.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 26, 2010, 11:26:52 AM
Bingster:  I respect your opinion.  Here, on this forum, it is good that we can voice opinions and not have the world crashing down on us.

For me, I would try to find the closest thing I could to a replacement.  Fortunately, replacing missing feet is just a matter of screwing them on and taking them off if you want to later.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bingster on March 26, 2010, 11:39:30 AM
I agree with you on that, so I think I may have misread Dan's question.  I'd definitely add the missing feet, but I thought he was talking about recovering the two feet that were present.  I wouldn't alter the ones that were original, but no, i don't think there's anything wrong with replacing anything that's missing.  That includes shell, handset, and cords.  I'd put a shell on it even if it's a hard plastic green from the 1970s--whatever it takes to protect the insides.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 26, 2010, 12:12:46 PM
Dennis H:

Wow! That is service that goes above and beyond the call of duty.

D/P:

I wonder what is the purpose of the nut on the side of the equalizer unit? The phone as is now looks fabulous.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 26, 2010, 12:35:04 PM
Dennis;
Read the post I just put up directly after yours. I didn't read your until after I posted mine. WOW!! absolutely fabulous.
D/P
D/P

Before I send these off to you I had one more question.  Last night I was thinking about the screw hole size.  I do not have a 500 base plate and made these to the size of the Galion hole in the footpad plate.  I checked this morning and I used a #10 screw.  I know 302's use a #8 screw.  Not a big deal since I can make them with any size screw but I would rather get it right before sending them.

Can you check the hole size in the base plate?  If you have an 8-32 screw see if it goes through the hole in the base plate.  If not use the wrong end of a drill bit to get the largest size that will go into the hole.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 26, 2010, 12:45:12 PM
The plot thickens!

Regarding the feet... It's just one man's opinion, but there's no way on earth I'd alter the original feet that were on it when you got it.

My opinion is if the feet are in reasonable to good condition and can be cleaned up then use the original.  If the feet are falling apart then recover them.  If the phone will be used in a house and on furniture then if in doubt recover them. 

In my case if I want the phone in the house (like on a desk or table) then I put new feet on it.  If I ever scratched a table or desk with a phone my wife would make sure it was the last one to ever got in the house.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 02:32:15 PM
Dennis;
The two original feet are in good condition, with only small tears at the very outside edge.
Whoa !! Back the foot truck up a bit.
I have just realized something VERY odd.

Either they had two different sets of feet, or on one end of the frame, the rounded portion faces out, and on the other end the pointed portion of the foot faces out. I will try to explain, but will add photos to better illustrate the point. At each corner of the frame, there are triangular protrusions that are used to locate the feet. Well upon examining the four protrusions, I realized that all four triangles face in different directions. That means that if all four feet were identical, the pointed portion would face out on the front of the frame, and if the same feet were mounted to the back of the frame the rounded portion would face out
See if the photos help explain what I'm saying.
Now the Dilemma. How was the base originally, did all four feet face the same way, or did the front face point out, and the back face rounded side out ?

My guess is the front feet faced point out, the rear faced point in.
  
Then I remember we have a photo of Henry Dreyfus with his original phone. When looking at the original photo.  It clearly shows front feet point out, back feet point in. So all four feet are the same just the protrusion on the frame make the direction different.
Now for the amazing thing I found out ALL 500's have the front feet point facing out, back feet point faces in.  Something I never realized before.

What's  more amazing is that apparently the competition didn't realize it either, as the Galion all face with the point out. Just a bit of trivia. How many already knew this ?????

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: LarryInMichigan on March 26, 2010, 02:53:08 PM
Quote
Now for the amazing thing I found out ALL 500's have the front feet point facing out, back feet point faces in.  Something I never realized before.

Gee, my 500s have been sitting here quietly all this time, and I didn't realize that the front and back feet face different directions.  The 302s are not like that.

Larry
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 02:54:09 PM
Dennis;
Here is a diagram of the foot as needed.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 02:56:42 PM
Quote
Now for the amazing thing I found out ALL 500's have the front feet point facing out, back feet point faces in.  Something I never realized before.

Gee, my 500s have been sitting here quietly all this time, and I didn't realize that the front and back feet face different directions.  The 302s are not like that.

Larry

Larry;
I understand we all learn something new each day, but in my case it amazes me I can handle an item day in and day out, and never know something that basic.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 03:02:02 PM
Notice around the shell mounting holes, both top and bottom shots, the paint is relatively gone, that tells me a shell was on that base for quite some time with the screws tight.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 26, 2010, 03:02:57 PM
This has been a most interesting thread.  I am so glad it is being discussed.  I liken it to an archaeological dig where D/P has discovered a new kind of dinosaur, and in a way he has.

Several posts ago, I believe someone asked a question about the handset that would have been used on the trial phone.  By the way there are many, many posts not only in this thread, but it seems that the whole forum has gone into hyperdrive recently.  It is getting harder and harder to keep up with everything.  That is a good sign, and I believe threads like this one keep a lot of interest going.

Now back to the handset.  Short answer is the G1 with the T1 transmitter and U1 receiver and 4 handset cord wires.

Some time ago, someone posted a pdf file that I read frequently that was a 1949  seminar/ press release by the Bell system on the development of the new 500 set.  The 425A network, along with the equalizer were specifically designed for the T1/U1 combination, and the 4-wire handst cord is also a product of that same development.  While this release was made post-trial period, the trial set that D/P has does have the 425A network and the equalizer, which is the whole point of the development of the new set.

At the risk of being redundant, here is another copy of that article.  It would be good "required" reading for anyone studying this thread, because of its relavance.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 26, 2010, 03:40:01 PM
Quote
Now for the amazing thing I found out ALL 500's have the front feet point facing out, back feet point faces in.  Something I never realized before.

Gee, my 500s have been sitting here quietly all this time, and I didn't realize that the front and back feet face different directions.  The 302s are not like that.

Larry

This is the same for all the 500 riveted feet I have replaced.  The alignment holes on the base plate for the dimples on the footpad set the direction like the triangular bumps do for this one.

I believe the neoprene triangle pads are also this way but have never worked with them.  Obviously it does not matter on the round neoprene.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 26, 2010, 03:46:38 PM
Dennis;
Here is a diagram of the foot as needed.
D/P

Thanks

I will change the nuts tonight to 8-32 and work on the triangle.  It will be more of a rounded area since the Galion already has the circular depression.  You can use the footpads you have to determine the direction to mount.

I will make the mounting screws about 3/8" long.  This should keep the end of the screw below the leather cover. 

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 26, 2010, 04:16:10 PM
The feet are this way (front in , back out) because they follow the lines of the housing above them ----want a rounded edge of the triangles to follow the edge of the base and housing.

The old five sided AE80 feet (plastic) have the elipitical rounded sides following the countour of the above housing too, and the three sided pointy area facing the inside.

I think if too much foot stuck out from the periphery of the phone, the corners could be more easily bent or knocked off.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on March 26, 2010, 05:10:22 PM
Chassis is looking nicely cleaned D/P, and the clear body and plain black handset sounds mighty fine for exhibitions, I'd finish it off (just my personal opinion) with a screwed small brass plaque on the front of the case saying something like "Pre-production Western Electric 500 set - 1948, restored 2010"

Gonna look the business when your done, and its fantastic it works!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 05:48:35 PM
GPO;
Believe me I'm  worked up about this.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jester on March 26, 2010, 05:55:25 PM
Several posts ago, I believe someone asked a question about the handset that would have been used on the trial phone.  Short answer is the G1 with the T1 transmitter and U1 receiver and 4 handset cord wires.
[/quote

I'm glad these points have been addressed.  One thing that sticks out on this set is how each single piece is "one of a kind", and at the same time the unit still "looks" like a 500, as all the special parts very closely resemble what most of us recognize as production components on regular 500's from 1950-2.  Because there are differences on the base, it is possible that the handset could also have subtle differences from 1950 & later handsets.  I don't think using a later G-1 would detract, though.  As Bill points out, it is perfectly compatible with the network & equalizer & the cord restraints will also work.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 26, 2010, 05:58:49 PM
Here is a link for the BSTJ 4/51

http://www.archive.org/stream/bellsystemtechni30amerrich#page/238/mode/2up


They article starts on page 239-270 on the page counter.

D/P I haven't read thru it yet, But I am sure you will want to.
(It has good photos). The set featured is newer than yours .
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on March 26, 2010, 07:27:13 PM
I notice that on page 268 of the above link, 'Improved Telephone' by Ingolis and Tuffnell it states that the 50 units used in the field test models during the summer and fall of 1948, that approval of appearance and performance was sought. So the design of the 500's shell and the G1 handset existed in mid 1948, earlier then the 1949 date so often mentioned ?

Drew
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 26, 2010, 07:44:21 PM
I notice that on page 268 of the above link, 'Improved Telephone' by Ingolis and Tuffnell it states that the 50 units used in the field test models during the summer and fall of 1948, that approval of appearance and performance was sought. So the design of the 500's shell and the G1 handset existed in mid 1948, earlier then the 1949 date so often mentioned ?

Drew

That is the elusive '48 sets, However, I have also read that the later '49 sets were the same models (no changes made).


If the #125 on D/P set is a serial# then his is probably a 1949 set.


Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 08:32:37 PM
I'm still trying to get the Duct tape residue off of the bottom.
Here is what has not worked so far.

WD-40
Goo-Gone
Mineral Oil
Alcohol
naphtha
lighter Fluid
Butane
I have to be extremely careful of the markings on the bottom, so I'm only testing on isolated areas where no markings are even close.
I even Googled to remove dried Duct Tape Residue, they said Baby oil, that's just scented mineral oil correct??? No dice.

D/P

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 26, 2010, 08:39:45 PM
I'm still trying to get the Duct tape residue off of the bottom.
Here is what has not worked so far.

WD-40
Goo-Gone
Mineral Oil
Alcohol
naphtha
lighter Fluid
Butane
I have to be extremely careful of the markings on the bottom, so I'm only testing on isolated areas where no markings are even close.
I even Googled to remove dried Duct Tape Residue, they said Baby oil, that's just scented mineral oil correct??? No dice.

D/P


Try citrus based adhesive remover. You can probable squeeze some citrus rind to get enough of a sample to try for experemental purposes. The spray I have uses propane as a propellant.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 26, 2010, 09:03:15 PM
Here is the Bell system Technical Journal 4/51 article about the early 500 set.
"An Improved Telephone set".

I copied it into a seperate pdf file for my own purposes. I thought some other folks might prefer to have it as a seperate pdf  file.
The link is a yousenditlink.com link and is good for 7 days.


http://rcpt.yousendit.com/843571645/01cb06e6a57c54ad7831e3810604bafc


Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 26, 2010, 09:45:58 PM
Thanks for that Jim, a nice article and nice to have a copy.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 26, 2010, 09:48:00 PM
more tape removal suggestions

bug & tar remover
3m adhesive remover
de-solve-it
acetone
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 26, 2010, 09:55:18 PM
Thanks for that Jim, a nice article and nice to have a copy.

Your welcome Dennis,

There are some minor issues with the pdf I posted. I think I know where I screwed up. I am going to experiment a bit more and try to get rid of the crinkles.
 If I can get a cleaner copy I will post a new link.
Jim (always proof b4 publishing  :o)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 26, 2010, 10:05:01 PM
I'm still trying to get the Duct tape residue off of the bottom.
Here is what has not worked so far.

WD-40
Goo-Gone
Mineral Oil
Alcohol
naphtha
lighter Fluid
Butane
I have to be extremely careful of the markings on the bottom, so I'm only testing on isolated areas where no markings are even close.
I even Googled to remove dried Duct Tape Residue, they said Baby oil, that's just scented mineral oil correct??? No dice.

D/P



If the glue has hardened you might try using a hair dryer to heat it up until soft.  Once soft you can use new duct tape to stick to it and lift it off.  The remaining glue can then be cleaned up by WD40.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on March 26, 2010, 10:18:51 PM
Tape remover:

It's maybe a tad obvious but our local Maplins (think Radio Shack) has a can of stuff called "label remover".
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 26, 2010, 10:28:58 PM
I read in a Bell Telephone Magazine article that the design of the G series handset was finalized in 1947.  Not sure if that's true of course, the magazine was written in the late 60's.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 26, 2010, 10:45:36 PM
Tape remover:

It's maybe a tad obvious but our local Maplins (think Radio Shack) has a can of stuff called "label remover".

Sandman.com has a lemon based tape and label remover. My understanding is that is also good for cord rejuvenation. I believe it is actually an arrow-magnolia product.
Citrus-base  adhesive remover products are surprisingly effective.

JMO,
Jim


Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 26, 2010, 11:00:00 PM
I read in a Bell Telephone Magazine article that the design of the G series handset was finalized in 1947.  Not sure if that's true of course, the magazine was written in the late 60's.

The time frame makes sense to me.
I was trying to see if I could find a reference in "Events in telecommunications history".
I did find an interesting "tidbit" for the 5302 folks,
 August 26, 1955. "Developements compleated to convert 300-type handsets to give most characteristics of 500-type" I suspect this means the GF handset is born.
I will keep looking for the G info.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 11:22:17 PM
I think I have the residue licked....No I didn't lick it off, I used Q-Tips to apply WD-40, let it set for about 30 minutes. The residue was still hard. So Out of frustration I used the edge of a plastic ruler I have. 90% of the residue powdered of, and about 5% came off with more Q-Tips, and WD-40. I will continue to use Q-Tips and WD to finish it.
Here's a photo of the bottom after most of the residue is gone.
The brown toward the front is into the black paint, and will never come out, it may be able to be covered that's about the best I could expect.

Jim;

So consensus is the handset used here, was most likely a straight forward early G1 handset ? Or might it have been a G1 design with F1 elements ? Any thoughts That is what I thought might have been in the set.

Straight handset cord, heavy line cord, and soft shell 500 case. Black plungers. I wonder what the markings were at the back relief, below the handset carriage. Western Electric, Bell System, or maybe blank ? Any ideas ?

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on March 26, 2010, 11:31:31 PM
my computer was being worked on and I got lost is this an actual 1949 set
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 11:39:59 PM
Kenny;
Most likely 1948 or 1949 Field Test set.
I won it on Ebay last weekend.
It was in sad shape as you can see. You have to read the entire thread a lot of very informative posts here. I've easily doubled my knowledge of 500 sets, and corrected many misconceptions I've had.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 26, 2010, 11:41:05 PM
D/P:

I would leave it as is. The tape residue leftovers are part of the history of the set.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 26, 2010, 11:44:14 PM

So consensus is the handset used here, was most likely a straight forward early G1 handset ? Or might it have been a G1 design with F1 elements ? Any thoughts That is what I thought might have been in the set.

Straight handset cord, heavy line cord, and soft shell 500 case. Black plungers. I wonder what the markings were at the back relief, below the handset carriage. Western Electric, Bell System, or maybe blank ? Any ideas ?

D/P


The whole idea behind the 500 was to get the added gain by using the T1 transmitter, so it would not be the F1 transmitter or the GF  handset that the 5302 used.  Definitely an early G1 handset which was made of bakelite, and a 4-conductor straight handset cord.  I don't know if the trials used vinyl or rubber jackets. The 1949 article says vinyl, but that was describing the final product and not the trial version.  Yes, a heavy line cord, using 3 conductors.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on March 26, 2010, 11:46:40 PM
I will later I am trying to get my reciver out of my handset it is stuck :P :-[ :-\
and i agree jorge
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 26, 2010, 11:55:31 PM
Jorge;
The chassis is pretty much all I'm going to do to it. I'll add the feet, dial, cords etc. but no more cleaning to the chassis. It's really nice the way it is right now, it has character, but yet it looks clean,
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 26, 2010, 11:58:06 PM
I think I have the residue licked....No I didn't lick it off, I used Q-Tips to apply WD-40, let it set for about 30 minutes. The residue was still hard. So Out of frustration I used the edge of a plastic ruler I have. (0% of the residue powdered of, and about 5% came off with more Q-Tips, and WD-40. I will continue to use Q-Tips and WD to finish it.
Here's a photo of the bottom after most of the residue is gone.

Jim;

So consensus is the handset used here, was most likely a straight forward early G1 handset ? Or might it have been a G1 design with F1 elements ? Any thoughts That is what I thought might have been in the set.

Straight handset cord, heavy line cord, and soft shell 500 case. Black plungers. I wonder what the markings were at the back relief, below the handset carriage. Western Electric, Bell System, or maybe blank ? Any ideas ?

D/P


D/P,


I assumed you realized it should be a pronged G1. ;D
 Straight black rubber cord.  G-type elements. I think the elements probably have D#'s.
Trans cup is a clear flat base cup. Date stamp is probably as early as 1947,  Ideally your date should be 1st or second 1/4 of '49 on the handset and associated parts.  

Housing  and handset markings were probably none or "Western Electric" handset, "Bell or Western Electric" housing.


The cord might be tough because the proper cord is Gasketed for a G handset w/ a 49 date.  I would rather use a later gasketed G handset cord vs a 302 handset cord, I think that would be proper.



"Cheats" for this phone are quite acceptable. It will take you years to get the true "proper" parts.



The closet clear "proper " housing I think is going to be a 1958 soft 500 housing. these were almost always on F-53115 phone company Display 500's. These are high end sets.

They made lots of hardwire clear 500's in the '70's. most got notched and most of the notching caused a crack in at least 1 spot. There is a grey WE mousehole that fits a standard notch.

All of the above are just my opinions. I would check w/ Paul F. and see if he scan get you better details on the other set.
Jim

Regarding GF and 5302 sets. The 5302 is a recycled set not a transitional set. The 500 becames popular and everyone wanted the "new" phone.

They designed the 5302 to give the new "look" to 302's.


Jim

I just saw the clean base, It looks great. I agree with the other comments.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 27, 2010, 12:09:08 AM
Base looks great!  I could not even see the word "Loud" before.  Looks like no other numbers or date codes were revealed by removing the tape residue.  

You've done some good detective work on this phone, and from what you've said it does seem that someone may have used it recently.  Any response from the seller about the shell and handset, and where he found it?

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 27, 2010, 12:10:59 AM
Check out the photo on page 15 of the window.
Spring 1950

http://www.archive.org/stream/belltelephonemag00vol2930amerrich#page/n15/mode/1up

Not the greatest tidbit, but still one for the scrapbook.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 27, 2010, 12:18:14 AM
I don't see what you are pointing out.  Either that, or I am lost as to which is page 15.  Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 27, 2010, 12:28:31 AM
Regarding GF and 5302 sets. The 5302 is a recycled set not a transitional set. The 500 becames popular and everyone wanted the "new" phone.

They designed the 5302 to give the new "look" to 302's.

Jim:

That is absolutely true.  A T1/U1 combination using the 302 insides would be way too loud and distracting.  They even pointed this fact out in the two field trial write-ups that have been posted here.

That means that when they dusted off the old 302 bases and made the 5302 cover, they could not use a G1 handset because the 302 induction coil did not have any equalization to lower the gain on short loops.  So, in order to do the 5302, they had to go back to the F1/HA1 combination.  However, they wanted, in most cases, for the 5302 to look like a 500, so they needed to go back and redesign the G1 handset to accept the F1 and HA1 elements, but still look like a G1 handset.  It is interesting to note that I have seem more 5302s with full F1 handsets than I have seen with GF handsets.

And you are correct, and many people don't realize it, but the 5302 is not a transitional phone.  It came on the scene several years after they plugged the market with 500's.  The 500 design was so successful that they wound up with tons of used 302's that had not lived out their full life.  Rather than scrap them, Ma Bell just applied a little make-up to the 302 and got a phone that outwardly almost resembled a 500.  Probably enough to satisfy most people that did not know the difference.

I am not making fun of the 5302 because I probably have 4 of them.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 27, 2010, 12:31:34 AM
I don't see what you are pointing out.  Either that, or I am lost as to which is page 15.  Can you elaborate?

Page 15 on the "display window " page ( not the book).
There is a photo of a D1, a 500, and a 302 The caption is that it is a display for the 1950 shareholders meeting.


It is a nice go-with photo for D/P's display
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 27, 2010, 12:33:20 AM
Bill,
The first phone we had when I was growing up was a 5302 w/ g/f. They changed it out when I was about 3-4.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on March 27, 2010, 12:57:09 AM
Base is done nice.

No need for further scraping/cleaning, overall a nice presentable chassis.

As long as the sticky bits are gone!

Coming along nicely.

Where you gonna source the clear body D/P?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Doug Rose on March 27, 2010, 08:39:34 AM
Dan...simply outstanding. This looks tremendous. After the MI show, contact Ray Kotke if you haven't already. A clear body and handset would really top it off. The bottom looks great, everything can be read. I'd stop and just add the feet. Great GREAT find! You just might have the last surviving piece of history....Doug
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on March 27, 2010, 08:57:53 AM
D/P    The base looks nice, and that's a good photo you've provided which leads me to yet one more thought about dating this phone. My guess is that sometime between the 1948 sets and the 1949 test models, the base plate stamping was changed from what you have to what we see in 1950,51, etc....but possibly later, in 1949 ?  It seems that this is among the more noticeable modifications with the 48-50 sets. Kind of wonder why WE did this since after reading notes on field test models, every one was very satisfied with appearance and performance, and it seems that the size of the base and the placement of components did not change, although how the feet are mounted changed, as discussed earlier in this thread. I think at some point, that number 125 stamped on your base will be tied to some Bell Lab notes on the 500 and will specifically date the phone and where it was tested. I would think there are notes on every one of the 4,000 1949 sets since they also sent out a 302 to be exchanged and compared with the 500 (same household)......thats just how detailed Bell Labs and WE were.

Also; Is there a U.S. Patent on the design of the 500 and what was the date it was filed.. Design Patents numbers are preceded by the letter D. For a second I thought that the number on this set, D177001 was the design Patent, but that number dates to 1956, so it's not a design Patent number.

Something tells me this will be among the longest threads the forum has seen ....

Drew
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 27, 2010, 09:43:23 AM
"old phones in movies", at 261 posts is tops. this thread is second at 203 posts. my guess is it will be the front runner before the week end is over.

btw, d/p, did i ever tell you.....nice work ;D
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 27, 2010, 09:57:22 AM
I read that great article on "An Improved Telephone Set", it's a very good source of info on the design of the 500 eh?

After reading that article I'm still leaning towards this set being a 1948 unit, one of the 50 that the article says were sent out for trail use in the summer and fall of that year.  The reason being is that these units were specifically pre-production models, and your unit has several features that seem to fall into that category.  The dial is a totally different design, as is the ringer, the feet, the hookswitch, and even the network top and the contours of the base plate.

The article says the 1949 trail units were sent out in November of that year and were pulled right off the assembly line, which also tells us that 49' units were being made that year and are out there someplace.  However, those trail units were production models and I'm assuming that they were the pattern of the later models that we all know so well.

Your unit has a very different pattern, and all the individual stamping of codes indicates that each part was being monitored carefully.

I wonder if Bell Labs would cooperate with you in determining the history of this phone?  Perhaps a letter or phone call to them would open up a direct line into the archives.  Betting there is some documentation there about this specific model.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on March 27, 2010, 10:44:57 AM
Key point McHeath.....I missed that about the '49s being pulled directly off the assembly line in Nov. 1949.

It's does seem rather likely that this phone is a 1948....one of only fifty, Wow !

We should make no assumptions about the 125 number indicating it's the 125th unit made - Like many serial number systems, they can start with the number 100 as the first unit or even the number 1000.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 27, 2010, 01:23:30 PM
Good point about the numbers marked on this phone not exactly meaning that it's number 125 in series. 

My own thoughts are given the cluster of unusual features this phone has that it's very early, and who knows it may be one of a kind. 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 27, 2010, 01:34:11 PM

I wonder if Bell Labs would cooperate with you in determining the history of this phone?  Perhaps a letter or phone call to them would open up a direct line into the archives.  Betting there is some documentation there about this specific model.

Dave Massey or Paul F might have some contact info for the archives.

I contacted Lucent back in 1999. The archives sent me a photo. Some of the other archives wanted to charge a search fee and then a copy fee as well.

I will PM  D/P the contact info I have from 99. I think the archivist I delt with is probably retired.


Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 27, 2010, 02:25:33 PM
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/category/communications/telephone/page/7/

Here is ad for the new set (page 7 2nd photo).  There are some interesting telephone ads on this site.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on March 27, 2010, 02:27:34 PM
I just got off the phone with my father in law who has an extensive scientific background - his father was also a physicist (co-author of The Principles of Electricity by Page/Adams) and was attached to the Signal Corps. during WWII and was working with Bell Labs in New York and New Jersey.  I told him about this phone we've been discussing....it's his feeling that Bell Labs would have kept a very close eye on these phones and it would have definitely been returned for examination and it was policy to destroy any pre production set after a thorough tear down, with the possible exception of a few being offered to the key people involved in the project. Bell Labs would not have wanted anyone in the public to have these or any of their components.  He also feels that there would have been extensive notes on each set, possibly a report on the entire group.

This info might be a bit redundant, but thought a comment from someone in the scientific community  of the 1940's would be of use.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 27, 2010, 02:35:56 PM
I read in a Bell Telephone Magazine article that the design of the G series handset was finalized in 1947.  Not sure if that's true of course, the magazine was written in the late 60's.

McHeath,
Here are some G proto-type designs from 1946
http://www.porticus.org/bell/images/dreyfuss_handset_prototypes.jpg

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 27, 2010, 04:14:45 PM
Jim;
How can I download the files, for future reference ?

GPO/ Doug;
Rays site shows almost every model clear shell, except the 500...

Drew;
Does the D177001 show up as a Bell Labs Patent ?

Bwanna;
Golly Miss Donna I'm Blushing...

McHeath;
I did email Lucent with the email address provided by Jim, I requested they send me the missing parts I need. (IT Could Happen)

D/P


Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 27, 2010, 04:20:05 PM
A point has come up concerning contacting Lucent Industries about the phone. Would they have any legal right to reclaim possession of the phone ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 27, 2010, 04:48:47 PM
A point has come up concerning contacting Lucent Industries about the phone. Would they have any legal right to reclaim possession of the phone ?
D/P


                         :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o


any legal minds here ???
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 27, 2010, 04:59:43 PM
For the photos, I have been right clicking and saving as a photo.

Another thing to do is to copy the cover. That way you have a referance for locating the magazine.

BTW the 3 photos were all located this morning doing internet searches


 For the BSTJ I had the title and issue. I went to the internet archive and started poking around. I had looked for it in the past and never found it.

To copy the Internet archive page.
I tried saving each page as a photo and pasted them in MS Works document.


In the past I have been able to print things and scan them back into digital.
It all depends on what the site will let you do.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on March 27, 2010, 05:19:59 PM
There must be both utility and design Patents associated with the 500, but did a quick search and did not see anything which seems odd. As I mentioned, design Patent D177001 falls under the year 1956, so your number must not be a design patent number since I'm pretty sure it would have been filed or issued in the 1948-49 time period.  I suppose it's possible that it was filed and not issued until 1956, but that's much greater a time period then usually seen. A detailed Patent search should bring up info on the 500, it's such an important piece of equipment.

 Prototype G handsets as early as 1946 -  bottom left looks close to the production version. I'd love to see case prototypes from '46.

See  http://www.uspto.gov/patents/process/search/issuyear.jsp
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bingster on March 27, 2010, 05:52:27 PM
A point has come up concerning contacting Lucent Industries about the phone. Would they have any legal right to reclaim possession of the phone ?
D/P

I'm no legal scholar, but I doubt very seriously that they could make any kind of claim for it.  The Labs were a part of AT&T then, but since AT&T was busted up, any ownership AT&T might have had would certainly not be claimable by today's Bell Labs.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 27, 2010, 06:10:55 PM
I added the photos to the links on from the previous postings.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 27, 2010, 08:09:56 PM
Dan/p, since the auction was so difficult to discern what it actually was, was it the dial plate that you noticed or the unique plungers? I am asking because I personally would have not seen the plungers.

The picture of the dial plate  BARELY shows the unique "operator" Z area. Imagine if the photo was 1/2 inch higher, this may have ended up in a trash can without bids.

I know Dennis and you noticed it. Would you have bid on it if the dial plate wasn't shown?

Also several of us (including me) would LOVE to know where he got this or the story behind it. Has the seller responded to any questions yet?

Lastly, I do not endorse a clear shell over it. I would put an early black 500 cover next to it on the side. Some people may actually be confused and think the phone came with an original clear shell. A picture of an early black 1948 or 1949 should be at least part of the display if the clear shell is used.

A 1950, 51 or 52 black  shell would work nicely.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 27, 2010, 08:22:09 PM
I agree with you Dan. Anyone interested in seeing the uniqueness of this set is only two screws away from seen it.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on March 27, 2010, 09:26:47 PM
I agree with you Dan. Anyone interested in seeing the uniqueness of this set is only two screws away from seen it.



Loose screws?  I've got a couple of those myself.   :)

As for the case - since the original isn't available, IMHO I don't know how much difference it makes whether it's a slightly later black 500 case, or one of the clear Kotke cases.   Neither's a true original.   Something to be said for the clear case idea, since it would show the uniqueness, non-production features of D/P's awesome find without requiring case removal on display.   That's kind of a security thing to me - look but don't touch if you aren't invited.   But as you suggest, Jorge, it's just two screws.   Swapping either a clear or a black case, or removing, isn't a big deal.  
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on March 27, 2010, 10:18:13 PM
Okay....I went back to page 4 of the thread and looked at the photos of the back of the dial.  The base is marked D-177001 & 125......the dial is marked D-177008 & 132.  If you add 7 to each number on the base, you get the numbers on the dial. They must both be serial numbers.

Sorry if this was brought up somewhere in the 200 plus replies so far, but I didn't see it.

Drew
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 27, 2010, 11:10:22 PM
Does anyone know what the offset is for hole in the center of a finger wheel.
If you draw a line straight through the center of the dial card mounting hole on the finger wheel, the dial is offset slightly. I get 11 or 12 degrees. Anyone know for sure.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 27, 2010, 11:39:31 PM
I keep looking at that photo of Henry Dreyfus and the preproducrtion set, I sure like the black on black.

Dan;
I like to take a close look at auctions with bad pictures. Mostly to see if I can pick up an early date 500. I'm trying to get one each of the 1950 to 1959 black 500, so far I have 9 all but the 50. then I started to concentrate on converting each year to my birth month, so far I've found 3,  54, 55, and 57
Second Just a few days earlier Dennis Markham had made a comment about the Z dial face, and that it would be very difficult if not impossible to find one. I also recalled seeing the pre-production photo with Henry Dreyfus. It appeared to me the phone had a strange dial, and plunger mechanism. When I saw the auction, I screen captured the photos, and enlarged them and enhanced them.
I knew right away I had found something different, but just how different I was even amazed. I spent the next week busting at the seems trying top hold it in, and praying literally that no one else would catch. It came down to the last day, I had put in a bid at $5.77, on  an opening bid of $4.99. Then someone else bid $10.50. I went back in and bid $15.77. Then I went and snipe bid $500.00. Well about 2 hours before the end of the auction , I went back and looked again, I was no longer High bidder, the price was now $510.00. I felt sick, because I knew right then that others saw what I saw. I went back to the snipe and put in $750.00. I knew I didn't have a chance and some high roller was going to get it for thousands probably. The cat was out of the bag. About 30 minutes before the end of the auction, I went back to check where it stood. Much to my amazement, I was once again high bid at $10.50. I though, what wrong Ebay has goofed up, then I thought refresh the page that was the problem. Same thing still high bid, then I checked thew bid stats. The guy that outbid me at $10.50 had retracted his bid, because he meant to type $16.01, instead typed $1601.00. he still didn't thing the phone was worth Even $20.00. I was in, Except for one thing, the ASS had revealed my high bid of $500.00, that &&&&ed me off and made me mad, because now anyone curious about the high price on this train wreck chassis would realize, at least one person thought it was worth big bucks. My heart sunk. I had it, lost it, had it again, and now was probably going to loose it again. I watched until the end, and no one outbid me at $10.50. Well I about pooped myself, until I refreshed the page and realized someone, had a snipe bid at $220.00. I though my luck, somebody just cost me $200.00, all kidding aside, that $200.00 never bothered me for one second, well maybe one second, because I new I had landed something special. But My snipe saved my butt and I ended up the winner. I will say I was a basket case until I got the phone in my hands, total about 10 days, I was a real Ass to live with for that time.

D/P
I wonder what the guys on ATCA email site are saying now about my brain damage, and DB cooper landed on his head.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 27, 2010, 11:59:36 PM
Dan, Interesting story. I can feel your excitement. I had nothing to compare to your magnitude except when I got my Dec 1950 phone for $20 at the flea market. He didn't even bother to get it off his truck. I had to ask for it. Then I lowballed him from 25 to 20 (kinda crappy, but I needed the $5 for lunch).

I think you are saying the plungers alone would've given you a good idea of it's rarity, so you have a great eye. I only would've spotted the unique dial plate.

How did your bid of $500 get revealed when the wrong bid was dropped? Are you saying that sellers know your maximum bid but other bidders do not? If that's the case, I could see major corruption --the seller could call a friend to drive the bid up but not quite hit your max bid (in your case, drive it to say 490 or so. )

I really don't know the intricacies of ebay.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 28, 2010, 12:06:59 AM
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/category/communications/telephone/page/7/

Here is ad for the new set (page 7 2nd photo).  There are some interesting telephone ads on this site.
Jim
It is interesting in the smaller picture (wherever it went) that the footpad above the ringer volume dial does not have a rivet.  It is a screw on just like D/P set.  My opinion is these must be pictures of a prototype since production started with riveted leather footpads.  The advertisement is dated Jun, 1949.

The other picture would seem to be how the prototype looked - clear plungers, black body, G1 handset, straight vinyl cord, Z under Operator on dial, black plastic fingerwheel, etc.

This is my vote how the phone should look.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 28, 2010, 12:10:12 AM
It would be even more amazing if the set was one of the first 50  1948 models--I am actually beginning to believe this to be the case!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 28, 2010, 12:51:27 AM
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/category/communications/telephone/page/7/

Here is ad for the new set (page 7 2nd photo).  There are some interesting telephone ads on this site.
Jim
It is interesting in the smaller picture (wherever it went) that the footpad above the ringer volume dial does not have a rivet.  It is a screw on just like D/P set.  My opinion is these must be pictures of a prototype since production started with riveted leather footpads.  The advertisement is dated Jun, 1949.

The other picture would seem to be how the prototype looked - clear plungers, black body, G1 handset, straight vinyl cord, Z under Operator on dial, etc.

This is my vote how the phone should look.

Dennis

Dennis,
Interesting point about the clear plungers. I would of guessed black for plungers.  
Hopefully Paul F. can compare photos of D/P's set and the other known set. That may help determine if D/P's is a 48 or '49. I still lean toward it being 1948.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 28, 2010, 12:59:26 AM
Not only are those plungers clear, they appear to be from a 302 as they are flat topped and rather short.  

As was noted this ad is from June of 49', so this is more than likely what your phone looked like D/P when it was intact.  
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 28, 2010, 01:16:22 AM
It also goes with the Dreyfus Pre-production photo. I would not have guessed clear plungers.
Notice also the modified frame by the ringer volume control, and the location of the word LOUD.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 28, 2010, 01:27:18 AM
Dan;
If you look at the bid history, it tells you what all previous lower bids were. So when the guy inadvertently bid $1601.00, it automatically put his bid at $510.00, enough to overcome my maximum bid. hen he retracted his bid, the high bid reverted back to $10.50, but on the bid history page it showed that my maximum bid was $500.00 before he retracted his. A major flaw in ebays system. If you want to know what a person has bid, just bid real high then retract  your high bid. Then go to bid history and see what the high was after your bid.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Vern P on March 28, 2010, 03:44:37 AM
Yes I know I am late on joining on this, but CONGRATS on getting this very rare set !!

I have not read the whole thing yet, so some or all of this may have been said But this is my 2 cents worth. 

This is a feild trial set, not a proto type.  I would clean it has is beeing done, and add old feet.  I will give you some if needed.  A copy of the finger wheel could be made. I would do so, as when this is put out for disply, folks will "dial"the dial.  Speaking of the dail, I would disply a photo of the back side with the phone to show it off. 

I do hope Dan will will write the story of this telephone, and share with the ATCA and TCI newsletters, as this is way to rare of a set not to share the info with the other collectors.

Again, yes I know I am late to this, and CONGRATS on a great find. Just my 2 cents worth. I don't know it all or clame to.

Vern P     
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 28, 2010, 08:21:10 AM
originally i thot the clear case was a good idea, however i see what jorge(?) means. someone might think the clear case was the original type case. i am still all for leaving the internal workings visible.

how about a museum type display. leave the chassis uncovered, set a shell next to it. of course add the appropriate handset & cords to the chassis. include informative photos & text. put the whole set-up under a portable display case. i think this would make a very impressive presentation at the various shows.

JMHO 8)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 28, 2010, 09:24:21 AM
I second Donna's idea.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 28, 2010, 11:58:06 AM
D/P:

Another way to share this rare finding is to write an article about the set and submit it for publishing to the Singing Wires magazine. You could contact Russ Cowell for information about guidelines and what not.

I am sure they would welcome an article 3 or 4 pages long with half a dozen pictures.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 28, 2010, 12:19:31 PM
Jorge:

That is an excellent suggestion.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 28, 2010, 12:53:06 PM
D/P:

Another way to share this rare finding is to write an article about the set and submit it for publishing to the Singing Wires magazine. You could contact Russ Cowell for information about guidelines and what not.

I am sure they would welcome an article 3 or 4 pages long with half a dozen pictures.



D/P
Paul F. would gladly help you turn your rough notes into a polished article, I suspect Russ would be willing to help as well. Any excess photos would get put into the bonus pages of the e-version.

Between Paul F. and Russ Cowell there is a lot of background info already collected about the history of this model.

The finished artcle could get posted as a locked thread on the forum.

There is so many good photos and unusual parts on this phone. That this would
make a good 5-1/2 x 8-1/2 color booklet. You could either  sell the booklet or have a pdf file set-up for booklet form, so people could print there own.

I would be interested in 2-3 booklets on this phone subject,  1 to read, 1 for the shelf, and a spare.


Jim
BTW since this is a field trial set and was to be returned to Bell Labs for repair, There is not going to be a BSP on this phone unless one was written for internal use at Bell Labs. Paul F. mentioned there might be some bsp's for some of the components. 
There may be different wording or ink color on the bases of the '48's and '49's Field trial sets.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 28, 2010, 01:22:56 PM
I have been asked about collaboration to write an article. I would be more than happy to supply anything needed in the way of Photos or text that would be required of me. I don't have any problem with that at all. I would feel much more comfortable having someone else ask me questions and then have them transcribe what I say into an article. As far a writing the article myself, I would fear I would not do justice to the phone due to my lack of advanced knowledge, whereas Paul, or Russ would be able to put all of my facts and photos in to proper historical context. Two Years ago, I didn't even know the difference from a W.E. and an A.E. desk set. I had one of each in black, and didn't know they were different phones.

Vern;
Thanks for your comments. As it turns out the feet are not common to any know style 302, early 500, Galion none are a match. If you have feet like the diagram submitted of course they would be a welcome addition. As it is right Now, Dennis Hallworth is fabricating the two feet needed.
as mentioned above I would welcome anyone willing to help write a GOOD article for ATCA, and TCI.
As far as the finger wheel goes. I'm in the process of drawing a detailed blueprint of then exact dimensions for a tool maker friend of mine, or myself to fabricate a new one. Photos below, of the feet and finger wheel. After the drawing is complete I will add the dimensions.


D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 28, 2010, 01:42:27 PM
Not only are those plungers clear, they appear to be from a 302 as they are flat topped and rather short.  

As was noted this ad is from June of 49', so this is more than likely what your phone looked like D/P when it was intact.  

The Pacific Telephone photo (pg 3 of thread) shows black plungers. The photo is dated 11/49.

I think the '49 production sets have black plungers, but it appears the field trial sets used clear. D/P's phone should be clear plungers.

JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 28, 2010, 01:53:15 PM
Anothered thought on escaped telephones. Phones used for photo shoots are probably likely canidates for slipping out back door.

Another thought.
Has anyone re-visited the Dreyfuss photo and studied the background photos?

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/79f7ddd94338f795_landing

I haven't yet, but I know there are some interesting photos in the background.


This link will allow a larger photo and acess to the Life photo archive:
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?imgurl=79f7ddd94338f795&q=telephone%20source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtelephone%2Bsource:life%26hl%3Den%26tbs%3Disch:1

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 28, 2010, 02:10:43 PM
I have been asked about collaboration to write an article. I would be more than happy to supply anything needed in the way of Photos or text that would be required of me. I don't have any problem with that at all. I would feel much more comfortable having someone else ask me questions and then have them transcribe what i say into an article. As far a writing the article myself, I would fear I would not do justice to the phone due to my lack of advanced knowledge, whereas Paul, or Russ would be able to put all of my facts and photos in to proper historical context. submitted of course they would be a welcome addition. As it is right Now, Dennis Hallworth is fabricating the two feet needed.
as mentioned above I would welcome anyone willing to help write a GOOD article for ATCA, and TCI.



D/P



I would see if Paul and Russ would do the article, They have background info on this phone. Their names on the article add authenticity to the subject.
I think an article should also provide the links to the 2 links that discuss the ""improved Telephone" ('49 conference and BSTJ 4_51).
Any of the other early 500 photo links should also be added. This is for the benefit of "early 500" researchers.
 This is where a booklet form would be nice. I would buy several, Mcheath is good for least 1 and so is Drew, My guess is also Vern P. for a printed booklet.
( I base this on observations of postings)

JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 28, 2010, 03:05:26 PM

Jim;
I can see it now, On Oprahs Must read  book list, New York Times best sellers list, Jay Leno, David Letterman, Book signing tours. Probably a Steven Spielberg movie deal, Tom Hanks of course would play me. I don't have time for that crap....I better find an agent quick, I've heard horror stories about fortunes being lost to the lawyers.... :P :P :P :o :o :o ::)
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on March 28, 2010, 03:48:29 PM
working title: "The Dreyfuss Code" if I find an original case in the jantors supply cupboard at Roslin Abbey, I can get the bus down and you can sign my book.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 28, 2010, 07:44:27 PM

Jim;
I can see it now, On Oprahs Must read  book list, New York Times best sellers list, Jay Leno, David Letterman, Book signing tours. Probably a Steven Spielberg movie deal, Tom Hanks of course would play me. I don't have time for that crap....I better find an agent quick, I've heard horror stories about fortunes being lost to the lawyers.... :P :P :P :o :o :o ::)
D/P

Don't go gettin scared.  Photos w/ short captions can make quite informative booklets.


Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 28, 2010, 08:33:30 PM
d/p.... i wouldn't make much of an agent (being so bashful & all :-[ )   but i can do great make-up/wardrode!  ;D

seriously,  do think about doing a booklet  :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 28, 2010, 09:09:30 PM
d/p.... i wouldn't make much of an agent (being so bashful & all :-[ )   but i can do great make-up/wardrode!  ;D

seriously,  do think about doing a booklet  :)
You are hired.
Why are you volunteering ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 28, 2010, 09:12:45 PM
I've just finished up the preliminary drawings for the finger wheel. Now all I have to do is add the dimensions and find a machinist to make it. I could make it, but it would take me days probably.
Anyone want a shot at it, or know someone ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 28, 2010, 09:15:50 PM
d/p.... i wouldn't make much of an agent (being so bashful & all :-[ )   but i can do great make-up/wardrode!  ;D

seriously,  do think about doing a booklet  :)
You are hired.
Why are you volunteering ?
D/P


I bet D/P could get a book signing gig at a telephone show.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 28, 2010, 09:20:00 PM
d/p, your drawing looks like very tedious work. nice job & good luck finding a machinist.

of course i am volunteering :)  as long as you pay all expenses while we are on tour  ;)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 28, 2010, 09:28:46 PM
I can see it now just like Walter Mitty....


Bwanna;
So far I have about 12 hours in that drawing, on paper the drawing is a 1 to 1 scale.
Computer makes it much easier, but a real draftsman could have drawn the wheel in a couple hours probably.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 28, 2010, 09:41:07 PM
I remember as a student in high school, taking drafting, one of those ecxercises in getting to know the compass was to draw a telephone dial.  That seems like a million years ago.  D/P, yours looks great!

Manual or computer, either way, that's one heck of a lot of work.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on March 28, 2010, 10:12:34 PM
Dan/P what material is the fingerdial being made from?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 28, 2010, 10:25:57 PM
I've just finished up the preliminary drawings for the finger wheel. Now all I have to do is add the dimensions and find a machinist to make it. I could make it, but it would take me days probably.
Anyone want a shot at it, or know someone ?
D/P
Nice job on the drawing.  Same question - have you identified the original material?

I have seen plastic sold both in 12" x 12" sheets and rod.  It looks like a lathe would be able to make most of the surface cuts then the holes could be drilled and lead-in edged rounded.  The center hole was probably two drilled holes to get the rounded ends then the sides filed flat.  The square holes also could be filed square.

If it is plastic then a machinist or a woodworker could make it.  Since I do not have a lathe (yet) I can not help.  I keep looking at table top lathes but can not justify (or afford) one --- yet.

I have found drawings of parts from that time period (1940's) were in fractions of an inch (not decimals) and angles were common - 30, 45, 60, 90, etc.  You will find the hole diameters are common sizes.  Also when making holes like the center hole, they used multiple circles.  An example the 500 footpad plates were made using four arches and two straight edges.  I think the issue was making the tooling with the existing technology.

Make sure you hang onto the original part.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Vern P on March 28, 2010, 11:45:47 PM
This is more of my 2 cents worth.  Good to know that you are getting help with new feet, since they are not of the 302 or 500 type.

For disply, I agree that a shell sat next to the base would be the best way to disply. I don't know I would put a hand set with it, as folks would "set it on the base" I don't know if this would hurt the base or not.  As for disply at shows. it would be best just to leave it out in the open and not in a case. I have done this in the past.

Yes a booklet would be a very good thing to have printed. It coud be made from just the story worte for the newsletter. As it would be easier to find when needed than the newsletter.

Yes Paul and Russ would do a great job of this. They did on on the delvolment of the 500 back in ealry 2009 for TCI. It was not given to ATCA to be printed, what a great loss.  I woud hope that the same thing does not happen with the story about this 500.

As for the dial,  job WELL DONE. As a machinst, (long out of the feild) I can see that it would not be hard to make. exceptely if they still working.

Again, just my 2 cent worth.

Vern P 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 29, 2010, 12:21:35 AM
The original material would have been Tenite, just like the rest of the phone. The wheel would have been injection molded. Since it would be very expensive to create a mold to inject only one, the only viable way to make a replacement would be to have a shop create a C&C program to make one out of Delrin or a suitable material.

We contract out plastic parts at work and Delrin is the plastic of choice, however, it is not too shiny as the one out of Tenite would have been. Maybe a clear coating at the end or black paint will yield something close to the original.  

My 2 cents for a total of 6 so far.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 29, 2010, 01:30:32 AM
The original Material is very brittle I assume it was Tenite. I had anticipated several materials, thought of round stock the decided a flat sheet would be easier to handle as my lathe will not go up to the 3" need to turn the part. However using a faceplate with a piece of flat sheet attached to it, would make the job much easier. the good thing about this is all of the hard portions of the dial are hidden, the easy parts finger holes outside edges etc, are the easiest parts to make.
Every piece of the original phone is being carefully handled and stored. The bask cover for the dial is very warped and the gears rub against it. Being tenite, to straighten it would surely end up damaging it, so I will use the method used by Radio restorers to fabricate new dial covers for radios that have yellowed or cracked after years of heat exposure. Making a wooden mock up, and .020" polycarbonate sheet, heated then formed over the mock up works exceptionally well and makes new dial faces almost undetectable, as originals.
back to the finger wheel material, I think ABS is a good choice, it is easy to machine, is very durable, comes in black, and as far as I know can be polished up to look very bright.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 29, 2010, 11:13:01 AM
D/P:

The tough part will be the rectangular notches into which the card ring snaps into. Have you thought of a method to do those?

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 29, 2010, 12:07:22 PM
I agree with ABS as a substitute.

If you do use Tenite you can find the machining guidelines from Eastman Kodak in this brochure:

http://www.eastman.com/Literature_Center/P/PP110.pdf

You can find the extrusion temperatures here:

http://www.eastman.com/Literature_Center/P/PP108.pdf

Just for reference Tenite II is fiberglass filled Cellulose Acetate Butyrate.

If you want to flatten the back cover you can heat it to pliable (before melting point) then put weight on it.  Tenite is amorphous so it warps less than a crytstaline plastic.  Once it is soft, flattened and cooled, it will maintain the new shape (crystaline tries to go back to the original shape).  Tenite melting point is 284 degrees Farenheit so you would want to stay at least 30 to 40 degrees below that.  

I soften plastic in a toaster oven but I judge the temperature using an oven thermometer.  Toaster ovens overheat then cool to get an avarage temperature.  I use an oven thermometer to make sure the maximum is not too hot.  Also make sure it is on a flat surface in the oven - not directly on the rack or you will get lines.  I also put the part on Reynolds Release aluminum foil so it does not stick to the surface.

I like the radio restorers method using wood and sheet covering.  I will file that for future reference.

Dennis

  
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 29, 2010, 02:02:18 PM
Jorge;
I think I will most likely use a round hole, then square file to shape.

Dennis;
The back cover for the dial is very warped and already has a hairline crack, I don't think I will even try to straighten it, Even if I could it's yellowed to the point that it's hard to see through. Polycarb sheet is crystal clear. I'll post a couple photos on the thread to show the mold. With the polycarb sheet, you just wait until it droops. Then it's ready.
Those two articles are keepers. I didn't know Eastman made Tenite, but now it makes sense. Eastman Acetate movie film shrinks after prolonged exposure to heat and improper storage, causing a rare movie not to be able to be projected any longer.
They must not have a very good testing system.
D/P
Gheez, I didn't even realize until after I posted the response I was in the thread.
Below are the photos for the polycarbonite method of dial face covers.
You place the lower part of the first photo onto a flat metal piece, about the same size as the upper part of the mold. Then you cut a polycarb sheet about 1" all around larger than the bottom part of the mold. Place that into the toaster oven on top of the sheet metal and lower portion of the mold. When the poly sheet droops, quickly pull out of the toaster oven and press the upper portion of the mold onto the part you just pulled out of the oven. Hold in place for about 30 seconds. Remove and trim the excess poly sheet. A very good replacement.
The third photo shows the results of this mold, on a 1937 RCA 7T-1 Tombstone radio.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on March 29, 2010, 02:19:34 PM
Well D/P, I just came across the threads dealing with your fantastic find, and absolutely feel that this rare item has landed in very capable hands.  I can only imagine how elated you are over this!

It's interesting that the bezel's numbers and letters appear to be the later injection style.  Looking at the bezel on my 10/50, the painted characters are more delicate looking, with the "P" and "R" not nearly as filled-in as on an injected type.  And on your set, you have a round letter "O" rather than the elongated numeral "0" at the 10th position.  It seems that with a set like yours, Bell Labs was trying out all of its concepts for the 500, and maybe didn't get the production fine tuned to implement everything at launch, such as the injection type of bezel which showed up in production a little later on.  It's also interesting that your bezel has the dots.  I thought the early trial phones didn't have the dots, which caused some misdialing, and so the dots were added to remedy that situation.

I agree with others who have said your set would have had the T1/U1 elements in a G1 handset.  IMO, Bell Labs would have been trialing those elements along with the rest of the set, and as others have stated, the F1/HA1 elements weren't designed to work with the 500's circuitry.

I have mixed feelings about a clear case vs. a black one.  I'd kind of want this phone to look like it did when it was sent off to be trialed. 

I suspect you'll find the correct early type G1 handset without much trouble, although I doubt it will be dated 1948 or 49.  I think maybe we've learned here that the seriously early 500's won't have the type of dating we're used to seeing on production sets.

CONGRATULATIONS!

Ralph
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 29, 2010, 02:30:10 PM
Ralph;
Thanks for the kind words. It has been a fun filled journey so far. I'm thankful for all of the very much needed and appreciated advice and parts, and help.
I hope to do this justice and I'm not hurry anything.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 29, 2010, 06:04:47 PM
I thought the early trial phones didn't have the dots, which caused some misdialing, and so the dots were added to remedy that situation.


CONGRATULATIONS!

Ralph

Ralph,
The dots are a very good point. I would guess the '48's didn't have dot's (at first) and the '49's did.


They original 50 '48 sets were used w/ 300 field trial users (6 different trials?) . I wonder when they added the dots. I would think the problem became apparenty early on in the trials. I wouldn't be surprised if the dots got added during the '48 field trials.
Has anyone come across a photo w/o dots?
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 29, 2010, 07:14:01 PM
tied w/phones in old movies at 261 posts. i wanted to be the one to put this one in the lead :P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 29, 2010, 10:08:02 PM
I think I read somewhere (it may have been in Ralph Meyer's book) that the dots originated with the 500 sets once the numbers were located outside of the finger holes.  The numbers were located outside the holes to that the user could eyeball the next number while the dial was returning.  The dots were there so the user could tell the returning wheel had stopped.  I'll get that book out and see if I can find that section.  It was my understanding that the dial bezels always had dots beneath the holes. 

I meant to look this up earlier today and I got sidetracked.  But that book is the only one I have.  Perhaps someone else has a reference document on this.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 29, 2010, 11:35:55 PM
I thought the dots were a target to aim your finger at.
I'm still a little, no a lot confused about the clear or black plungers, round top black, or flat top clear ? Two pictures I've seen shows both with O/Operator/Z, each with different plungers.
My train of thought tells me the clear was a older version, and changed to the Black, which would be production. I don't think practice was do something then go back to previous. I think the progression was Clear, Black, then finally Black. Not Black, Clear, back to black. My logic in thinking is this, IF someone had the power to change from Black to clear, and consensus was to go to clear, I don't think anyone would have argued to change it back, politics you know.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 29, 2010, 11:43:05 PM
The black ones are Bakelite, I believe.  The clear ones appear to be Lucite.  Which is cheaper?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 29, 2010, 11:56:24 PM
I would guess bakelite was cheaper, Lucite pointed to the future. The buck wins though.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 29, 2010, 11:57:22 PM
In Old Time-Telephones! by Ralph Meyer, Chapter 14 beginning on page 86 it covers the Western Electric 500-type Telephones.  

Beginning on the bottom of page 87 he writes:

     The dial, which was part of the Dreyfuss design, was arranged to improve dialing accuracy and speed.  To accomplish this, the numbers and letters were moved outside of the fingerwheel where they would no longer be obscured by portions of the wheel itself.  In principle, a dialer could take aim at the next number while the fingerwheel was still moving, thus accelerating the whole dialing process (Prescott 1952; Donovan 1991).  Ironically, extensive tests with the early design of this type showed that the dialing time was actually slower than with the older 302 set (Black and Cunningham1954; Flinchum 1997, 100-102).  From observiing participants in the tests, it was found that the time loss occurred at the end of the period when the fingerwheel was returning to it's rest position.  The dialer was slow to recognize when the dial had come to rest, because no frame of reference was provided by the black fingerwheel revolving over an all black background.  This was remedied by placing a white dot  at the center of each finger hole so the dialer could tell when the rotation had stopped.

So based on this, there was a trial bezel with no dots.  It is unknown if any sets were released that way based on this report but it appears to have been remedied while in the test phase of the model.


    
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 30, 2010, 12:03:33 AM
I agree with you D/P that the clear plungers are probably the older of the two, and for the same reasons that you argue.  

Do the hookswitches push the plungers up on a standard 500 shell when you fit it on?  Wonder if they changed the design so that it would be stronger?  A flat metal bar seems like it would be easier to bend and lose tension than the sideways metal bar of the standard design.  

Any word from Paul F about the phone yet?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 30, 2010, 12:05:52 AM
I was just kidding about using the dot to aim at, but at least it appears to have been a consideration.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 30, 2010, 12:31:52 AM
Yes Paul has been in contact with me but he is tied up this week, and said he may post to the forum early next week.
With a shell dated 1954, the black plungers seem to be at the normal height.
I meant to post about the mounting method used for the ringer. It is supported by 3 rubber bushings, and One screw located between the gongs, screwed into the base with a rubber bumper. the bottom of the chassis appears to have 2 rounded protrusions at the back located at each side of the ringer, but after closer examination, they are actually rubber grommets rounded on the outside of the chassis.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 30, 2010, 12:34:54 AM
Dennis Hallworth has told me that the feet are done and will be on there way here shortly.
Thanks you very much for your time and effort on this project.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 30, 2010, 12:59:41 AM

It's interesting that the bezel's numbers and letters appear to be the later injection style.  Looking at the bezel on my 10/50, the painted characters are more delicate looking, with the "P" and "R" not nearly as filled-in as on an injected type.  And on your set, you have a round letter "O" rather than the elongated numeral "0" at the 10th position.  It seems that with a set like yours, Bell Labs was trying out all of its concepts for the 500, and maybe didn't get the production fine tuned to implement everything at launch, such as the injection type of bezel which showed up in production a little later on. 

Specific to the bezel I found this paragraph on Pg 95 of May, 1949

http://www.telephonecollectors.org/DocumentLibrary/WesternElectric/500-Set-Design-1949.pdf

“That brings up the interesting matter of how we get these characters in here.  This number plate is plastic.  In the old set, it was ceramic.  Here we have a plastic which is the same material that we have in the housing: in other words, it is cellulose acetate butyrate.  The main body of the plate is clear plastic.  The characters are molded in from the underside but don’t come up to the front surface of the transparent plate.  Then we put white pigment in them.  Then we cover the whole back with black; and you have white numbers showing up very nicely through the clear plastic and against the black background.” 

I am not sure what you would call this - maybe overlay molding with white pigment in between but it is not two-color injection molding that I believe was used in later phones.  I suspect manufacturing issues caused the fallback  to the painted on numbers until two-color injected molding was available.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on March 30, 2010, 01:12:45 AM
Dan,

Now that other things in my life have quieted down a bit, I've had a chance to check some old notes on the early days of the 500.  I've added some of the material to the site. 
  http://www.paul-f.com/weproto.html#500

Note the shape of the line switch and ringer in the patent drawings.  They sure look familiar!

The patent numbers to search for are:
  G Handset: 151,614
  Base: 153,928
  Line Switch: 2,566,840
  Ringer: 2,590,500

Has anyone tracked down patent info for the handset elements?

We still need to find a known 1949 set to compare with yours and a 1950 set to fill in the gaps.

In lieu of finding a whole 1949 set, I'm collecting photos of dated 1949 components that have turned up in later sets, such as the 10/49 dial we discussed off-line.

I'd caution reading too much into pre-1950 photos used during the product launch.  The Bell System often used design concept sets (often painted plaster models) or field trial sets as subjects for the initial articles (including BSTJ and employee publications) and ads.  BSP fans have often commented that drawings in the Issue 1 BSPs often don't look a whole lot like the production product.

Don Genaro (former head of Henry Dreyfuss Associates [HDA]) once told me that numerous concept models were made for housings for the phones from the 500 thru Trimline sets.  The wood models for the G handset posted earlier are a good example.  You've probably also seen some of the photos that survived for the Princess and Trimline models on my site.  We're still looking for similar photos of 500 design models.  Most 500 models were apparently small variations on a theme, as the basic original design survived with only a few tweaks due to final component dimensions.

Don also said that HDA had warehouses full of the models for many years, but destroyed them in the 1980s to make room for other customers' models.  They also did vacuum cleaners, farm machinery and locomotives, among other products.

The set shown in at least one of the articles I've seen looks like a painted plaster model.

It's safe to say that HDA would have built both clear and black plungers and tried them out in various sets to see how they looked and to gauge viewer reaction.  The only thing we know for sure is that black was selected for the production sets.

Typically sets through field trial were made in a batch shop, not on the production line.  Once the concept was proved, manufacturing engineers got involved to wring out the last tenth of a cent on each unit.  The process continued through the life of the product.  I believe that process is evident in comparing your set's line switch, ringer and dial with the production parts.

There are many stories regarding when the aiming dots were added.  The Dreyfuss references suggest it was relatively early in the process, and that photos of sets without the dots are probably nonworking design concept models.

More to follow...

Paul
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 30, 2010, 01:33:50 AM
Dan, Paul, and everyone else,

For me, this has been a most interesting digest of information on the trial 500 set.  Paul, I have been a fan of your site for the last three and a half years that I have gone back into phone collecting.  One thing is for sure and that is that with the Internet and the ability to pool information that is both scarce and schetchy really makes the historical aspect fun.

When I first started collecting in the 70's there was really no information in the libraries and I had never heard of the clubs, so I was on my own, so to speak, in trying to piece together the information, and I now find that I was sometimes working with myths and a total lack of knowledge.  That, and raising a young family caused me to set my sights on other things, and it has only been the last few years that I have picked it up again (with a slight compulsive tendancy towards an addiction) 

Even with what we have, we sometimes need to use imagination and speculation to fill in the gaps.  So, rightly so, this thread has become the most read thread on this board.

Paul, may I extend my personal welcome to this forum.  I hope you will like it here,

Dan, you have become a star in your own right with your "archeological" find!

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 30, 2010, 02:52:47 AM
I would guess bakelite was cheaper, Lucite pointed to the future. The buck wins though.
D/P

I think the clear was first, then black. then clear on later colored 500's and then clear on all.
The 1939 WF clear 302's were lucite and it was a new and expensive plastic plastic.

All of the early recever cups are clear, first flat bottom, and then pronged, eventually they changed those to recycled "swirl" plastic,

In the case of the plungers, the material change may of had to do with strength and durability of the plunger plastic.

Clear was probably the design choice, they made a material chioce of black for production. Eventually they went back to clear once the materials met quality and cost demands.
Just some thoughts,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 30, 2010, 02:56:48 AM

It's interesting that the bezel's numbers and letters appear to be the later injection style.  Looking at the bezel on my 10/50, the painted characters are more delicate looking, with the "P" and "R" not nearly as filled-in as on an injected type.  And on your set, you have a round letter "O" rather than the elongated numeral "0" at the 10th position.  It seems that with a set like yours, Bell Labs was trying out all of its concepts for the 500, and maybe didn't get the production fine tuned to implement everything at launch, such as the injection type of bezel which showed up in production a little later on. 

Specific to the bezel I found this paragraph on Pg 95 of May, 1949

http://www.telephonecollectors.org/DocumentLibrary/WesternElectric/500-Set-Design-1949.pdf

“That brings up the interesting matter of how we get these characters in here.  This number plate is plastic.  In the old set, it was ceramic.  Here we have a plastic which is the same material that we have in the housing: in other words, it is cellulose acetate butyrate.  The main body of the plate is clear plastic.  The characters are molded in from the underside but don’t come up to the front surface of the transparent plate.  Then we put white pigment in them.  Then we cover the whole back with black; and you have white numbers showing up very nicely through the clear plastic and against the black background.” 

I am not sure what you would call this - maybe overlay molding with white pigment in between but it is not two-color injection molding that I believe was used in later phones.  I suspect manufacturing issues caused the fallback  to the painted on numbers until two-color injected molding was available.

Dennis
Kind of sounds like the back painted dials for custom color sets. I think D/P's set has a black "backplate"


jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 30, 2010, 03:18:11 AM
Hi Paul,
Welcome to the forum.
Your site is what convinced me that sources need to be cited, Like Bill, I accepted a lot of the Phone lore at face value.

Paul, I keep a shortcut to your site on my desktop and refer to it often, when I am bored and on the computer I sometimes "nose" around the site and It seems like I am always finding something else I hadn't seen yet.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Over the years I have noticed that lot's of things that were supposed to of been destroyed didn't actually make it to the landfill, they were "rescuded" along the way. Some of the Dreyfuss models might of gotten spared.
Watch for them on ebay and at telephone shows.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on March 30, 2010, 03:52:38 AM
I think the document dated May 1949 allows us to draw the conclusion that the dots were placed on the bezel fairly early in the trial process, perhaps even in 1948. 

D/P has found the next-to-impossible 500, so now it would seem that the truly impossible one would not have the dots.

I must say that after reading the technical information for the equalizer used on the early 500's, I'm wondering if I should be using my 10/50 phone as much as I am.  I'd hate to burn out the equalizer "lamp" on it. 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on March 30, 2010, 08:07:12 AM
I see the design patent for the base dated March, 1948 (just added to Paul's site) looks very different from the base of the 500 as it came to be.   Design patent for the base, D153,928 was issued on May 31, 1949. Unfortunately no photos or sketches came up when I searched this number. It looks like the design of the base was not settled until sometime in early 1949.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 30, 2010, 11:02:02 AM
Drew:

On those patent dates, if that patent you refer to was issued in May of 1949, it could have been applied for a few years earlier, and the actual design used with "Patent Pending".  Is there an application date on that patent?

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Wallphone on March 30, 2010, 01:24:56 PM
Drew,  Were you using Google Patents? I also use "Freepatentsonline.com". I think that I had to sign up for it (free) and maybe get a plug-in for Firefox when I first started using it. But it is a nice alternative to Google. You might not be able to open this, > http://www.freepatentsonline.com/D153928.pdf <
but it did show a phone housing in the patent.
Dougpav
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on March 30, 2010, 01:30:52 PM
That drawing looks very similar to both the Kellogg DK-500 "banjo" (at the cradle area) and also the North Electric (model number escapes me) with the recessed finger wheel.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 30, 2010, 01:34:52 PM
First, Paul welcome to our Forum, and thanks for your comments.
I described how the dial was made in an earlier post, Paul described in it technical detail. The process is called Reverse painted. At least in the world of radios that is what it is referred to as.
A clear base, with relieved highlights, The highlights are then painted the desired color, then covered with the final background color. you see the method used quite frequently on the dials of Transistor radios, and many toys.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on March 30, 2010, 01:51:08 PM
Yes...Patent D-153,928 filed March 19, 1948 and issued May 31, 1949.  It's just odd since usually a issued design patent looks just like the Drawing which is previously filed under the same number, as to keep people from copying appearance of the item which is the purpose of a design patent. The sketch in the March 1948 filing, and the final base of the 500 look like different phones. In the course of one year and two months from filing to date of issue, they obviously changed what the phone looked like substantially, I just don't recall seeing this happen with design patents, usually the filed sketches and the final patent issued are identical.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 30, 2010, 01:52:09 PM
I think the document dated May 1949 allows us to draw the conclusion that the dots were placed on the bezel fairly early in the trial process, perhaps even in 1948. 

D/P has found the next-to-impossible 500, so now it would seem that the truly impossible one would not have the dots.

I must say that after reading the technical information for the equalizer used on the early 500's, I'm wondering if I should be using my 10/50 phone as much as I am.  I'd hate to burn out the equalizer "lamp" on it. 
RP2813, where did you read that about the equalizer. ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on March 30, 2010, 01:57:42 PM
hey thats my birth day in 1948 ;D
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on March 30, 2010, 03:26:43 PM
D/P, I read the equalizer info in that same May 1949 document that an earlier post here linked to.  I haven't made it through the entire document yet, but the information about the equalizer filament gave me cause for concern, not only regarding the thing just burning out from use (although I think I read elsewhere that they were designed to last for thousands of hours) but also if the phone itself should take a tumble.  Unless the filament was manufactured along similar lines to a "rough service" light bulb, I'm concerned about its life expectancy but then again, Ma Bell designed and built the 500 with durability in mind and I would like to presume that the equalizer was made to withstand a certain amount of abuse, but I don't know.  I also don't know what sort of equalizer design was incorporated into the 425B network blocks.  Perhaps I'm worried over nothing.

All of this has made me wonder if I should track down a straight handset cord for my 10/50 and take it out of daily use.  It seems a shame to do so, as with vintage cars I've owned, I prefer to drive them rather than keep them under a cheese bell for show only.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 30, 2010, 03:33:15 PM
I think the document dated May 1949 allows us to draw the conclusion that the dots were placed on the bezel fairly early in the trial process, perhaps even in 1948. 

D/P has found the next-to-impossible 500, so now it would seem that the truly impossible one would not have the dots.

I must say that after reading the technical information for the equalizer used on the early 500's, I'm wondering if I should be using my 10/50 phone as much as I am.  I'd hate to burn out the equalizer "lamp" on it. 
RP2813, where did you read that about the equalizer. ?
D/P

http://www.telephonecollectors.org/DocumentLibrary/WesternElectric/500-Set-Design-1949.pdf

Starting on page 91.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 30, 2010, 03:48:17 PM
RP;
Being that the phone was not a user owned item, I would think they would have made the equalizer to last as long as the expected lifespan of the phone, as the subscriber would not be responsible for repairs, why would the company manufacture an item they would have to pay a service tech to constantly change. Mine appears to have resistance and continuity through the terminals as per my multimeter. And I'm quite certain no great care has been taken in the handling and storage of my phone which predates 1950 by I hope at least one year. the article state the EQ was rated at 3000 use hours. That's not as long as it sounds.

If you go by an average cell phone program of 1000 minutes a month. Then calculate it out. That's calculated over a projected 3000 hours useful lifespan, that's 180,000 minutes at 1000 minutes a month, that's 15 years, if you use it an average of 33 minutes a day. I wouldn't worry.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 30, 2010, 03:56:19 PM
The 1949 write-up quoted a 3,000 hour lifespan based on the new equalizer having a filament in it.  (The 425 B and later networks eliminated the filament-based equalizer, and replaced it with varistors).

Anyway, the 3,000 hour lifespan quote was based on their estimate that the filament should have about the same life as the average switchboard lamp.  I don't think at that time they really had much in the line of experience to really know how long it would last.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on March 30, 2010, 04:16:36 PM
I'm tending to lean toward the assumption that AT&T wanted everything over-engineered for exactly the reasons D/P stated re: the equalizer.  It could very well be that their estimate of 3000 hours could be way below the actual life span. 

I'll take D/P's advice and not worry about it.  My 10/50 usage averages out to only a few minutes per day.

I'm still not clear on how the equalizer works, though.  Let's say I'm calling my next door neighbor.  What's the equalizer doing as compared to calling someone across town who is served by a different switch?  Keep in mind that I am at the very edge of my switching office's reach.  Would things be different if I lived across the street from the switch?  Is there an easy way to explain this to us challenged masses?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 30, 2010, 04:28:58 PM
Ralph:

If you are far away from the central office, the current through the filament will be small, thus lengthening the life of the equalizer. I would keep using it as you do today.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 30, 2010, 04:30:29 PM
Apparently it reads the line resistance and adjust accordingly so a close call is not over modulated, like the article says; "to the point that the caller and the called could not stand the loudness"
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 30, 2010, 05:14:51 PM
RP:

The equalizer is kind of a volume control that bases its setting on the current it senses.  The current is a direct function of how far away you are from the central office, which is where your phone is connected to at the other end.  If you are 5 miles from the CO, then that is your loop distance, because that is where the central office battery that supplies the current is.  It doesn't matter whether you are calling accross the street, or across the country or to the Moon.  Your loop distance is the distance to the central office.

But lets say you work in an office that has a PBX that is 5 miles from the central office.  A PBX supplies its own battery supply for that system.  Any calls within the PBX are very short loops; maybe only tens of feet.  However, once you dial a 9 for the outside line the PBX switches your call over to the telephone company central office.  Now suddenly, the loop length turns from, say 100 feet to 5 miles.  The equalizer in the phone makes the needed adjustments to compensate for that and opens the volume wide open, and you will notice very little change.

A non-equalized phone like a 302 and earlier could have a very noticeable difference between long and short loops.  In a 302 environment, the local PBX could sound too loud, and a call through the central office could be annoyingly weak.

The equalizer was a giant step for the phone company.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 30, 2010, 05:23:08 PM
Welcome to the forum Paul.

Quote
We still need to find a known 1949 set to compare with yours and a 1950 set to fill in the gaps.

Are there any known 1949 sets?

Do you believe that this chassis of D/Ps is a 1948 field trial unit?


Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 30, 2010, 06:04:47 PM
we are getting a little off the topic of dan's amazing find. but to the subject of equalizers i would like to add that loads coils are installed in the plant now. simply put these are amplifiers placed at 6k intervals on loops >18k.
not sure when these came into use. but load coils ensure signal is as strong 8 miles away from the CO as it would be next door to the CO. so i am thinking once load coils were in use, the equalizer was no longer necessary ??? also due to this amplification, i think a 302 would sound just fine regardless of loop length.

http://tinyurl.com/ygq39yf

ps. bill g started another thread on this particular topic

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2430.0
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 30, 2010, 06:20:57 PM
Here is the 12/49 Life magazine article. Some photos are in the Life archive, However it does have a photo that shows a riveted foot.

http://books.google.com/books?id=VUEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA67&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false


Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on March 30, 2010, 07:21:33 PM
Here is the 12/49 Life magazine article. Some photos are in the Life archive, However it does have a photo that shows a riveted foot.

http://books.google.com/books?id=VUEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA67&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false


Jim

So far I have seen the following changes from field trial version to production.

1.  Footpads from screwed on to riveted changing the footpad and base plate tooling.

2.  The dial bezel changed from some type of molding process to painted on.

3.  The plungers changed from clear, flat top to black, rounded top.

4.  Dots added to the dial plate during the field trial.

5.  Plunger levers from horizontal to vertical
 
6.  Ringer mounting method(?) to something(?)

Were there other changes?

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 30, 2010, 07:31:25 PM
As far an what use an equalizer has on modern lines I don't know.  I do know that my 1951 J/K model 500, which has the 425A network and no equalizer, has annoyingly loud sidetone.  So annoying that I put a resistor on the terminal block to reduce it to tolerable levels, and now the phone is quite pleasant to use. 

But I don't know if this was a problem with having the 425A network and no equalizer.

Really nice that Paul put the blueprints up for the 500 series on his site, and they are just like the phone that D/P has!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 30, 2010, 07:56:40 PM
As far an what use an equalizer has on modern lines I don't know.  I do know that my 1951 J/K model 500, which has the 425A network and no equalizer, has annoyingly loud sidetone.  So annoying that I put a resistor on the terminal block to reduce it to tolerable levels, and now the phone is quite pleasant to use. 

But I don't know if this was a problem with having the 425A network and no equalizer.

Really nice that Paul put the blueprints up for the 500 series on his site, and they are just like the phone that D/P has!

This is absolutely the case.  A 425A network with no equalizer is basically the same as a 302's 101A induction coil and using the T1 and U1 combination of receiver and transmitter.  That is what the 1949 Bell System article authors were talking about when they said that the 425A network with the U1 and T1 on short loops without the equalizer would be intorlerable.

Your resistor accomplishes what the equalizer is designed to do, except your resistor is fixed and the equalizer varies on current.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on March 30, 2010, 08:21:59 PM
That perfectly explains what was happening.  I assume that the J/K series and other 500s made without equalizers in the early days of production must have been installed at certain distances that did not need the benefit of the separate equalizer unit.  A cost savings I guess.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on March 30, 2010, 10:11:45 PM
It's looking like it's no question that D/P has a definite field trial set according to the list a couple of posts up.  He has the non-riveted feet, horzontal plunger levers, a molded-character bezel and an unfamiliar ringer mount.  Enough research could maybe uncover a time line for when the various changes were made during the trial period.

This is about as close to the holy grail 500 as we're likely to see.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 30, 2010, 10:26:39 PM
I posted this in the wrong forum. What a\n idiot. I need to step back for a while I'm losing it.

Paul;
I have a couple quick items I would like clarified if you can.
In the first photo, what is the locked screw used for ? Is it an adjustment, or to hold internal parts in place ? I would assume all components were attached to the Black cover.

In the second and third photos, the number 125 appears on two separate components and you can see 124 on the ringer. What do these designate? I thought component numbers but two different components with the same number ?
there doesn't seem to be a definite pattern to the 3 digit numbers or the D177 numbers ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 30, 2010, 10:41:36 PM
The rear dial protective cover is Tenite, and warped beyond use, the mounting screw was missing so it was floating around for half a century and even with a new screw, would rub the gears. So I must make a new one. I use a method borrowed from Radio work. It's a wooden mock up, then Polycarbonite sheet is heated and force formed over the mock up. Cooled then trimmed. Here is the Mock up ready to be used to form the new Dial cover.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 30, 2010, 11:19:54 PM
D/P:

The 125 number is probably the kit number for all parts in a set. When the set was being assembled, someone must have borrowed a part (or the part was found to be defective) and the assembler took a part from the next kit to assemble this set. My theory and I am sticking to it.

The nut in the box is most likely a method to secure the bulb that contains the filament and thermistor so it doesn't rattle inside the box if the set is accidentally dropped. I haven't looked inside one of those boxes before, but in case there is a potting compound inside (to secure the bulb), then the nut is probably used to secure future accessories inside the phone. I kind of doubt this theory because the screw does not protrude much above the nut.

My February 1950 set does not have such nut.

Could it be possible to heat the dial cover with a hot air gun and try to bring it back to the original shape?



  
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 30, 2010, 11:27:16 PM
Jorge;
Tenite is so fragile, I'm sure I would either make it worse, or break it completely.
I would rather display all of the broken or worn out parts next to the completed phone, and save them as they, are rather than take a chance. they have slightly yellowed or amber colored polycarbonite, it should look almost like original.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 30, 2010, 11:39:47 PM
D/P:

The 125 number is probably the kit number for all parts in a set. When the set was being assembled, someone must have borrowed a part (or the part was found to be defective) and the assembler took a part from the next kit to assemble this set. My theory and I am sticking to it.


Jorge;
If I understood Paul, this is similar to what he explianed to me, but I still have issues because the network is 209, the EQ is 35, sure looks like a lot of defective parts, and I find it somewhat hard to understand why they would have such an unorganized numbering system. Especially for field testing. Somewhere, someone is sitting on a ton of Field test documentation.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 31, 2010, 12:14:16 AM
D/P:

The 125 number is probably the kit number for all parts in a set. When the set was being assembled, someone must have borrowed a part (or the part was found to be defective) and the assembler took a part from the next kit to assemble this set. My theory and I am sticking to it.


 Especially for field testing. Somewhere, someone is sitting on a ton of Field test documentation.

D/P

Copies of the field trial info probably reside in the personal files of the Bell lab engineers involved on the project.

I have a thick file of   early auto dialer info, (eBay) that came from the files of a bell labs engineer. These guys sometimes kept parts, models, and examples of some of their projects.

If you research the team members who designed the 500 set, locate them or their descendants, you may be able to talk them out of the files or maybe get some scans of the pertinent info.

There is a good chance the files were destroyed, sold on eBay, or perhaps, Donated to a local museum or historical society in or around Murray Hill, NJ.
I bet you could find a local historical society/musuem for Murray Hill, NJ by browsing the internet.

These files  would be a great go with.

Just a thought,
Jim

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 31, 2010, 12:23:36 AM
Hi D/P:

In a large organization like Western Electric and Bell Laboratories, all phones assembled during development don't really needed to be fully functional units.

For example, the marketing people just want phones that look and feel like the real thing, because they are just interested in showing them to people to see how they like it. In these units they probably fitted non working parts (such as networks, etc).

Perhaps the Board of Directors was having a meeting and the shop provided them with some units to amuse and excite the investors. Mock-up units would be more than enough. The Mechanical department want phones with all parts in place to determine fit and placement with the purpose of determining if all parts mate properly, check for corrosion problems, whether they were finished properly so assemblers don't get cut while putting the unit together, etc. The Electrical department really doesn't care much about plastics and housing, they most likely want units will all electric parts inside to test them in laboratories for circuit properties, electric shock due to lightning, incorrect wiring and all kinds of things engineers do.

In an environment like this, it is possible that the industrial engineers decided to use the base number (125 for example) as the serial number of the set. A traveler document went through all assembly stages and employees just wrote down in the document the serial number assigned to each part as the set was being put together. At the end of the assembly line, the traveler document was filed so that if the unit came back with a defect, they can track the defective part to a specific lot and try to solve the problem with a supplier.

There are many ways companies elect to assemble products for production, and variations most likely will exist. Unless we have an insider from WE or Bell, we can only theorize what method was used to put this set together.

My 2 cents for today.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on March 31, 2010, 01:08:47 AM
Quote
Paul;
I have a couple quick items I would like clarified if you can.
In the first photo, what is the locked screw used for ? Is it an adjustment, or to hold internal parts in place ? I would assume all components were attached to the Black cover.

In the second and third photos, the number 125 appears on two separate components and you can see 124 on the ringer. What do these designate? I thought component numbers but two different components with the same number ?
there doesn't seem to be a definite pattern to the 3 digit numbers or the D177 numbers ?

I have no idea of the purpose of the locked screw on the equalizer, and agree with your observations and speculations.  I'm with Jorge -- the production sets I've seen don't have this feature.  I trust you're not about to open it up to find out, so we'll probably have to be content with guesses until someone finds the shop manual for this set!

My guess on the numbering is that the D- numbers are unique to the macro design of the component.  In past club discussions the D was speculated to stand for "Design" and related to a Bell System design specification.  The D- number on the bottom of a set typically related to the overall spec for the complete set, while the D- number on a component (e.g. ringer) related to the spec for that part.  If there was a major change to the design, the next one made to the new spec would get a new D- number.

Checking other sets on my site (http://www.paul-f.com/weproto.html) shows that sets in the 20s - 31 used Y- numbers, from 32 - 50s used D- numbers and in the 60s - 70s used F- numbers.  Some have speculated that the F stands for "Field Trial" but I know of no definitive source to confirm that.

An example of one set with different F- number versions is the 1960 Contour.  Another project is finding samples of both versions to document the differences -- but that's a discussion for another topic.

I believe the shorter numbers are simply serial numbers for components made to the marked specification.  As has been pointed out, we don't know the starting number -- whether 1, 10, 100, etc.  Each part would have a unique number, so its origin and history could be tracked during assembly, testing and use.

Therefore your ringer is uniquely identified for tracking purposes using the two codes, D-177006 and 124.

If the Bell System assigned numbers like engineering firms I worked for several decades later, there was a clerk who maintained the master number assignment list. When an engineer needed a code for a new part, a quick call to the clerk got the next available number on the list.  Unless there was a compelling reason, there was no master numbering plan to assign numbers based on the component's form or function.

The primary real purpose of the D- numbers may have been for the accountants to accumulate material and labor costs of each component during the development phase.

Since the short numbers do not match for all components within the set, it's logical to conclude that they were not intended to match.  The fact that several are 125 or 124 is just coincidence.  

I'm open to other speculations...

Paul
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 31, 2010, 02:26:24 AM
I like Paul's theory. Something I would like to add is that I think the D# parts were "trayed"

Field Trial sets were made in small quantities and I suspect the parts were laid out sequentially into trays.  The assembler grabbed a part and assembled it into the telephone. If the D#  parts were laid neatly in trays it would make sense that most of the control #'s of the sets pretty much matched.

as an example: If the "ringer guy" dropped #124, he grabbed #125 and installed it. then picked up ringer 124 and put it in the next phone.  The control #'s wouldn't matter much unless the part failed.

The components w/o d# were probably already tried and true. They just needed a control #.

On this set the D#'s seem to be on major parts that were unique to the 500 set.

Just some guesses,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 31, 2010, 11:16:42 AM

I have no idea of the purpose of the locked screw on the equalizer, and agree with your observations and speculations.  I'm with Jorge -- the production sets I've seen don't have this feature.  I trust you're not about to open it up to find out, so we'll probably have to be content with guesses until someone finds the shop manual for this set!


About the only way to see what is inside the equalizer is to use an X ray machine. Not available to everyone, but if you have a friendly dentist, it shouldn't be too difficult to X ray that box. Just say Aaaaaah  ;D

Dan from Ohio, any ideas  ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 12:34:35 PM
Typically in my experience with a nut and screw in the center like that, You loosened the nut, adjusted the central screw to some specification, then re-lock the nut. But looking at a schematic of the EQ, The only thing I can think of is the screw was used to align the Thermistor bead, to the tungsten filament for maximum output of the Equalizer after assembling the EQ module. Later versions were modified to eliminate this problem maybe by the tube assembly. This version may have a separate filament and bead..
It would be similar to aligning the exciter bulb to the sound drum on a movie projector. Adjust the exciter bulb to maximum modulation without distortion of sound from the projectors amplifier, by aligning it to the sound drum.
If this is the case, once again it would in my mind points to an earlier version of the EQ.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Doug Rose on March 31, 2010, 12:41:00 PM
Hey Paul....welcome to the Forum. We are more than pleased to have you here. Your name is mentioned here often. You will not find a more passionate group in regard to telephones. This small group of collectors puts the previous lists I have been associated with to shame. Welcome aboard. Don't be a stranger, the forum needs your voice.....Doug Rose
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 01:27:15 PM
I was reading through the following document about the placement of graphics, and the dots on the new dialface, and it hit me that the logic of the dots wasn't right. Can anyone else see what I'm thinking ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 01:39:40 PM
Adding the dots only works if you are right directly looking at the dialface. So for the new dial to function as mentioned, you need to be in the same position you had to be in to use the old Dial.
From where my phone sits right now, I can only see the top half of dots 8 and 9.
I think the human brain is a little more advanced than to need a dot to point at, to insure you will hit the proper finger hole.
Below is a photo of my phone as I see it when I dial. I don't think the dots are a factor at all.
D/P.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 31, 2010, 02:05:45 PM
dan, where did that typed information come from? it does seem to be somewhat contradictory.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 02:39:51 PM
It came from a BSP from bell Labs about the design of the new 500 phone. Presented at a conference May 1949 I think it said.
It's posted somewhere in this thread I'll see if i can find it. I downloaded it from the link I think Jim posted ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on March 31, 2010, 02:45:11 PM
The typed material is from "Notes of the Discussions at the Conference of Bell System Lecturers, May 1949 pages 93-94.  The link was posted earlier.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on March 31, 2010, 03:00:02 PM
Yes, I saved a copy of that document and there is a link to it earlier in this thread.

I may only be speaking for myself, but the 500 on my desk is situated in a way that allows me to see only the dots related to numerals 5 through 0.  I don't need to get right on top of the phone to make sure I'm dialing 1 through 4 correctly, even though I can't see the dots for those.  I use the number adjacent to the hole in the fingerwheel to plan my next move, not the dots inside the holes.  They aren't numbered.

I doubt they ever considered putting the digits where the dots are and only leaving the letters outside.  It would make dialing more difficult and would have been a step backward to the dials of previous generations.  So I have a hard time seeing where adding the dots made that much of a difference, but seeing a 500 without them would, some 60 years after its introduction, look weird.

Regardless, the final configuration adopted for the 500 dial didn't put an end to the "Mr. Bumble" ads Ma Bell used to run on TV, so there were still plenty of WNO's (Bellspeak for "wrong number") being dialed after the number of 500's in service was higher than that of the 302's still out there.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on March 31, 2010, 03:26:20 PM
Do the dots make a difference?

I read somewhere that the Bell System did a lot of statistical research on dials and the human factors of dialing, using many groups of people over the years.  The focus was on identifying factors that could be improved to increase dialing speed and accuracy.

The main motivation was to improve utilization of equipment in the CO.  A small increase in speed or accuracy translated into millions of dollars in annual operating expenses.  This influenced the 500's design goals and was watched closely.

The 1977 Dreyfuss book claims "that adding the 'aiming dots' decreased dialing time by seven-tenths of one second."

When the colored 500s came out, further research was done on the contrast between the set color and the letter/number color on the dial plate to optimize these factors.  For example, that resulted in rose beige sets having white letters while the later light beige sets have black letters. (Some of the early research is referenced on page 98 of the 1949 document.)

[These factors were important for decades.  They were used as a primary justification for the expense of going to touch tone dialing many years later.]
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 03:31:24 PM
People routinely use Keyboards and calculators without looking at the figures. I don't think it too much of a stretch to imagine that the brain could figure out the numbers by looking at 10 circles laid out with numbers beside them.
I love the dialplate layout on the 500, and I can't imagine it being any other was. I just found the comment to be rather like Bwanna said, contradictory. I know that corporations spend untold millions on profiling users of their products, and apparently it is a science and it works. It sometimes defies logic.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 31, 2010, 03:34:57 PM
maybe it made a difference back in the day. when this phone stuff was new fangled business. we have been accustomed to the 500 type dial our entire lives.  those of us over 40 that is.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on March 31, 2010, 03:41:13 PM
Dan,

I believe the key word in your post is "routinely."  In those days, heavy keyboard and calculator users were mainly typists or in accounting departments using mechanical adding machines.

The average phone user probably only dialed a few numbers a day, so never got up the learning curve.  Long distance was still a luxury.

The dots weren't for "power-dialers" anyway.  Who cares if you saved 10% of their dialing time?  The goal was to speed up the novice dialer, who misdialed and was slow -- having to think about each digit dialed and perfrom advanced mental gymnastics such as figuring out which letters of the exchange name to dial.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 03:48:03 PM
What you say makes a lot of sense now, people were simpler then, everything was relatively new, industrial revolution was barely a generation new. It's like trying to explain email to a senior, or teaching your Mom how to use a remote.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on March 31, 2010, 04:02:33 PM
Ouch!  Those are our parents and grandparents  you're talking about.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 04:05:12 PM
Won't be much longer I'll be talking about us....
I never really put it in that perspective. can you imagine some teenager in the late twenties saying; "Gheez Dad, all ya have to do is put your finger in the number you want and turn the dial how much easier can it get".
Dad; "Yeah I know you said that before, but I keep getting the wrong person, darned new things, why can't they just leave well enough alone, what's wrong with an operator getting me the number I want. NO SOONER GET USED TO ONE THING AND THEY GOTTA GO CHANGING THINGS ON YA.?"
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on March 31, 2010, 04:08:58 PM
i am still young (although there has been some debate from my friends)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on March 31, 2010, 04:20:21 PM
Won't be much longer I'll be talking about us....
I never really put it in that perspective. can you imagine some teenager in the late twenties saying; "Gheez Dad, all ya have to do is put your finger in the number you want and turn the dial how much easier can it get".
Dad; "Yeah I know you said that before, but I keep getting the wrong person, darned new things, why can't they just leave well enough alone, what's wrong with an operator getting me the number I want. NO SOONER GET USED TO ONE THING AND THEY GOTTA GO CHANGING THINGS ON YA.?"
D/P

It might look a lot like this...
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zjlLb0tqGs&feature=related

(Pardon if this has been posted elsewhere.)

A higher resolution version is in the Prelinger Archives at archive.org.


Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on March 31, 2010, 04:31:40 PM
We may need a Chapter Two of 'Now it Can Be Told' as this thread heads towards 30 pages and no doubt will reach 40 or 50 pages or even 100.

I've enjoyed every post, but see a point where repetitive info and the inability to find a referenced statement will be upon us.

Just an idea ?

Some serious 500 history is being delved into, and it's great !

Drew
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 04:34:15 PM
Paul;
A couple questions. Is  there any one still here that was a part of all this back then. If so are they co-operative with discussing things that happened then.
And yourself, do you collect phones, or do you mostly do research and collect documention ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 04:38:21 PM
Paul;
WOW! That nailed it.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on March 31, 2010, 04:54:50 PM
Paul;
A couple questions. Is  there any one still here that was a part of all this back then. If so are they co-operative with discussing things that happened then.
And yourself, do you collect phones, or do you mostly do research and collect documention ?
D/P

I haven't run into anyone in collector circles that was part of the 500 development effort.  I'm still hopeful that we'll learn of someone (although time is clearly running out.)

Oh yes.  As the opening line goes: "My name is Paul, and I'm a phone collector."

Most of the phone photos on my site that aren't credited to someone else are or were in my collection.  As Jim hinted at earlier in this thread, the interest in documentation came after years of conflicting discussion among collectors.  We are gradually trying to seperate the fact from the folklore by quoting sources where possible and building on-line document archives.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 31, 2010, 05:22:16 PM
Typically in my experience with a nut and screw in the center like that, You loosened the nut, adjusted the central screw to some specification, then re-lock the nut. But looking at a schematic of the EQ, The only thing I can think of is the screw was used to align the Thermistor bead, to the tungsten filament for maximum output of the Equalizer after assembling the EQ module. Later versions were modified to eliminate this problem maybe by the tube assembly. This version may have a separate filament and bead..
It would be similar to aligning the exciter bulb to the sound drum on a movie projector. Adjust the exciter bulb to maximum modulation without distortion of sound from the projectors amplifier, by aligning it to the sound drum.
If this is the case, once again it would in my mind points to an earlier version of the EQ.
D/P

Does the screw have an adjustment slot across the center face?

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 06:04:56 PM
Jorge;
upon closer examination, no it does not have an adjusting slot which eliminates my theory of an adjustable Thermistor bead. However it could be a mounting for the newer tube. If that is what will determine the closest age of my set, I may have to open it and see, if indeed it is the mounting for the tube.
D/p
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 31, 2010, 06:49:02 PM
D/P:

Since it is such an early set, and the equalizer is a four contacts tube (pretty much like a light bulb), the screw and nut could be used to hold a socket in place. The tube and socket slide sideways inside the  container and it is secured to the side with the nut. From the socket I would expect four leads going to the terminal lid, which is secured with tabs to the equalizer box.

Just a theory. We need Dan from Ohio to X ray the box to confirm this.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 31, 2010, 08:58:33 PM
Hey, standard xrays (dental, in my case) will not show through the exterior metal (steel) . The fact the equalizer works has been determined. A dense metal like steel would just show as an opaque white on the film. A 3-D cat scan (I'm getting out of my league here) may differentiate metal densities and unlock what's inside.

I don't know any MD's who could do this, but for the general knowledge obtained, it would be worth it. If we could find  phone enthusiast, MD who knows?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on March 31, 2010, 09:03:32 PM
or superman w/his x-ray vision ;D
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 31, 2010, 09:21:11 PM
Jon Finder is a pediatrician and phone enthusiast.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 31, 2010, 09:22:46 PM
Paging Dr Finder......
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 31, 2010, 09:28:15 PM
Dan, I think the box is made of aluminum.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 31, 2010, 09:31:12 PM
I will take an aluminum pop can (soda for you easterners) and xray it and put a steel nail behind it to represent the tungsten filament . What are we trying to prove again? I'm a little lost....
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 31, 2010, 09:36:08 PM
My 1951 early production phone has an equalizer dated Dec 1950.  It has no nut on the side.  It is made of aluminum, and is not potted inside.  There is no conceivable need for a nut or adjusting screw on this particular production equalizer.

Here, for everyone's viewing enjoyment is a photo of the inside of the equalizer.  The lamp and the thermistor are a one-piece  glass-enclosed unit.  The varistor (not to be confused with thermistor) is the flat thing on the side.

It looks exactly like one of the photos in one of the journal articles that has been much quoted in this thread.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on March 31, 2010, 10:06:41 PM
Wow ,a jellyfish has invaded your phone  ;) :o ::)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 10:08:25 PM
I'm at a loss after seeing Bill's EQ opened. The tube is mounted directly to the lid. I can't figure what would be the need for the screw and the nut. I would assume the entire module would be mounted to the top of the EQ. Something is going on inside that predates the tube, is my guess.
Paul, any ideas what is inside that module ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 31, 2010, 10:12:43 PM
Yep, it just hangs there upside down like a bat.  Probably more like a bat than a jellyfish  ;D

When I opened the can, I noticed that there is no bottom to the equalizer can.  It is completely open at the bottom to the base of the actual telephone, to which it is riveted.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 31, 2010, 10:16:02 PM
D/P

This is just conjecture, of course.  Perhaps the trial model had some other alternative purpose in mind for a possible mounting that was not actually used, and thus the nut and screw.  Or maybe they had some way of attaching the tube inside that was overly engineered at the time and later production models had an easier way of doing it.

A late-coming thought I just had.....

Maybe the varistor used the side of the can as a heat-sink which could have been later found to be un necessary.  It is not uncommon for semiconductors to use a metal enclosure for heat dissipation, especially in older semiconductors that were not as tolerant to current as the ones of today.  The varistor is a semiconductor that is essentially two opposing back-to-back diodes wired in parallel.

It is certainly curious, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 10:21:25 PM
Paul talked about saving tenths of cents on production costs. Imagine 1 square inch of aluminum ( The Bottom Of the EQ ) over a million phones. That would be 776 square yards of aliumium. That would save a few bucks. then figure the bottom of the Network about double the size or more.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 31, 2010, 10:25:53 PM
I think the network does have a closed bottom, due to its being potted with some gooey substance.  I think the network can was also steel.  Probably to keep transient AC hum out from adjacent flourescent lights and transformers.  On the other hand,  the 302 101A induction coil was routinely completely un covered, but they did make a metal shield for the 101A that was occasionally used, but I don't know under what circumstances.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 31, 2010, 10:42:28 PM
I lean towards it being part of the mounting assembly and/or heat sink.  I wouldn't be surpised if the main purpose of the nut is to hold the cover in place.

In the bureaucratic world  it is not unusual to overdesign. The extras can be cut later for budget or attaboy reasons.  Many times "fluff" is encouraged, so it can be eliminated later.

In the case of BTL, the intial design/production cost, would be  tagged as R&D, and would get written off, rates could get based on development cost. Later if you could cut cost, the savings go into the profit column.

Design first, simplify later.
Just a thought,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 10:50:13 PM
Earl "Madman" Muntz, would go into his engineering Department, and clip components out of the prototype televisions. He would keep doing that until the engineers could no longer make the set work.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on March 31, 2010, 10:55:22 PM
I'm at a loss after seeing Bill's EQ opened. The tube is mounted directly to the lid. I can't figure what would be the need for the screw and the nut. I would assume the entire module would be mounted to the top of the EQ. Something is going on inside that predates the tube, is my guess.
Paul, any ideas what is inside that module ?
D/P

I don't know what's in there either.

Perhaps Bill's photo has given you the courage to try and pop the top off to take a look inside -- while hoping feverishly that the screw isn't connected mechanically to anything mounted to the terminal strip, or that they left enough play to allow the equalizer to be assembled after the nut was tightened.

While we're on the subject of cost cutting, saving the cost of the screw, nut and labor to drill the hole and assemble the parts would really add up in mass production quantities.  Not to mention what might be inside that was also eliminated.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 31, 2010, 11:00:36 PM
By the way, here is a page out of one of the documents we have been looking at from last week.  It is a grainy shot of the equalizer, and it is undoubtedly the production version.

PDF file is attached at the bottom of this post (1 page)

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on March 31, 2010, 11:14:41 PM
Excellent job Bill. I am sure this is the first modern picture of the equalizer tube ever taken.

Remember the 426A tube we discussed in the past and the method used to fasten it to the base? Brinybay took a few pictures of the tube in his AE80. In that phone and like in later 501 phones, the socket is held to the base with a screw. It is possible that inside D/P's phone there is a similar socket held with a screw and nut like in the 501 phone.

Since his is a field trial phone, it is possible that the engineers chose to mount the equalizer in a socket until they refined the circuit and found the most optimal equalizer model.

Once production began, they eliminated the socket ($$$ in the long run) and mounted the final equalizer tube directly to the terminals of the box lid.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 31, 2010, 11:19:34 PM
Jorge:

That is possible too.

My early 500 is also equipped with a cold cathode tube and is attached to the base of the phone with a single screw.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 31, 2010, 11:21:17 PM
Jorge,
That is a very good point, w/ a socket you could try out variations of tube design. once the tube was finalized there was no longer a need for the socket. The exsisting  tube may have a model # or date on it.


Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 31, 2010, 11:47:13 PM
Boy Jim you really like to dangle that carrot don't you. Got me thinking the only part in the entire phone that may be dated or traceable is in that EQ.
Well, All I can  say is, We'll never know then will we  ;D
Or maybe I'll open it up and look, and be the only one in the world that knows what's inside. :o :o Then again, maybe I already have looked 8)

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on March 31, 2010, 11:54:27 PM
Boy Jim you really like to dangle that carrot don't you. Got me thinking the only part in the entire phone that may be dated or traceable is in that EQ.
Well, All I can  say is, We'll never know then will we  ;D
Or maybe I'll open it up and look, and be the only one in the world that knows what's inside. :o :o Then again, maybe I already have looked 8)

D/P
Frightening, isn't it.

But doesn't the public have a "right" to know?

(a quote I heard somewher).
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 01, 2010, 12:08:05 AM
D/P:

YOU ARE KILLING US!!!  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 01, 2010, 12:27:15 AM
Somethings are just better left to the imagination. It's like saving that last present at Christmas time, once it's opened that's it. So you put it off and wait, and wait, and wait.....
10 years ago, when I moved into my house I'm in now, we bought the property as is, the guy just walked away and left everything. furniture even food in the cupboards the whole 9 yards. it took about 6 months to go through most of the stuff, it was sad and exciting all at the same time. Well anyways there was this wooden box in the the guys workshop. It was like a small footlocker. I saved that box for last, because once it was opened that was the end of the adventure. Do you know I did not open that box for almost 2 years. When I finally opened it, it was stocked full of automotive diagnostics equipment, Dwell meter, Timing light, amp gauges all the hot stuff to tune up cars. but can you believe it, I had the patience to wait 2 years without opening that box.
That is an true story.

D/p
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 01, 2010, 01:44:04 AM
Somethings are just better left to the imagination. It's like saving that last present at Christmas time, once it's opened that's it. So you put it off and wait, and wait, and wait.....
10 years ago, when I moved into my house I'm in now, we bought the property as is, the guy just walked away and left everything. furniture even food in the cupboards the whole 9 yards. it took about 6 months to go through most of the stuff, it was sad and exciting all at the same time. Well anyways there was this wooden box in the the guys workshop. It was like a small footlocker. I saved that box for last, because once it was opened that was the end of the adventure. Do you know I did not open that box for almost 2 years. When I finally opened it, it was stocked full of automotive diagnostics equipment, Dwell meter, Timing light, amp gauges all the hot stuff to tune up cars. but can you believe it, I had the patience to wait 2 years without opening that box.
That is an true story.

D/p
I always let my phone packages age for at least an hour. I waited a day+ on my clear SC fatboy trade  so I could open it on my birthday, Then I took 2 hours from box open to final unwrapping.  Anticipation.....

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on April 01, 2010, 09:59:13 AM
When I get home from work and have a phone "box" waiting, I sometimes force myself to enter the payroll and daily totals on the computer and wait on the phone as a "reward" once I get the work issues out of the way :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 01, 2010, 12:23:09 PM
Jorge,
That is a very good point, w/ a socket you could try out variations of tube design. once the tube was finalized there was no longer a need for the socket. The existing  tube may have a model # or date on it.


Jim

Maybe. The 426A tube plus socket assembly were dated and the caption "426A" is visible from the back of the socket.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 01, 2010, 12:45:53 PM
Bill;
Exactly what did you use to open the EQ, and how exactly did you do it.
I don't want an EQ with a cracked cover, or disabled component.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 01, 2010, 01:03:55 PM
On my EQ, there are four slightly crimped indentations that crimp over the plastic cover.  It was just a matter of bending them outward with a pretty small flat-tipped scrwdriver.  I used a large jeweler's screwdriver.  The crimped things were pretty easy to bend out, since the can is made of aluminum.

Does yours have those four crimps?

I can take a picture of the top of the can on mine when I get home.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 01, 2010, 03:42:37 PM
OK, The suspense is finally over. I opened up the EQ as per Bill's instructions.
All I found inside were a Hole, and a 60 Year old piece of Dirt.
I have to apologize for such a disappointment.
I just realized I put the EQ back together, and didn't remove the dirt. ::)
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 01, 2010, 04:08:38 PM
Oh well, such is life.  :o ::)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 01, 2010, 04:19:24 PM
What is on the underside of the cover? and what was the nut used for?

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 01, 2010, 05:56:44 PM
Luckily you didn't remove the dirt. Perhaps you can cabon date it.

 Are there any carbon daters on the list?

 I'm no expert, but from the photo I would guess  it dates between 1948 AD and 1949 AD.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 01, 2010, 06:01:14 PM
Jim:

The plot thickens. Where is D/P's EQ?  ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 01, 2010, 07:19:41 PM
Well I guess my suspense and sense of humor is out of place. So I guess I have to post a photo of the internal parts.
Boy a guy just can't ever have any fun anymore.

Bill;
The nut holds stuff to the can, and under the cover is the stuff. ;D

This is how I see it.

Photos
#1-Looking directly at the module components and the mounting screw, The mounting screw is part of the Varistor, and also acts as a heat sink. This view is facing the front of the phone.
#2-Side of the module that faces in. The resistor is a 100 ohm Dogbone style.
#3-Faces the ringer.
#4-Faces the side of the phone, or out, note the number 562, inside of the tube. BTW, the tube almost looks custom made.
#5-Directly from top, right is towards front of the phone.
#6-Backside of the varistor, note number 35 same as EQ housing.

All markings I found, have been mentioned.

I received the feet from Dennis today, and they look great. I will mount them shortly and post photos.
I need to slow down, my 15 minutes is almost up..... :o
D/P

Changes made to original post as per corrections by Bill Guerts.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 01, 2010, 07:50:09 PM
Come to Papa, Baby needs a new pair of shoes, and She got them with a very special thanks to Dennis Hallworth.
I doubt I would ever cover my own feet again, they are fabulous.
Uh! Uh! Don't you, step on my brown suede shoes.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on April 01, 2010, 07:52:57 PM
Great April Fool's gag Dan......and those foot pads look great!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 01, 2010, 08:02:13 PM
I was wondering if you weren't trying to pull something, or pulling our collective legs.  To tell you the truth, I would have tried to do the same thing.  I kind of thought it was funny.

The little dog-bone "thingie" is the 100 ohm resistor that is in series with the varistor thermistor.  The metal screw is glued to the varistor, and I am going to hereby claim to be the winner of the guessing game that it was used as a heat sink against the surface of the can.

The thermistor, by the way is enclosed in the glass tube-like enclosure with the filament.

Great to see those new feet.  Nothing like a new pair of shoes.  They look absolutely great.

-Bill
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 01, 2010, 08:06:13 PM
By the way, I think the unique dial mechanism has been the least talked about feature of this thread.  That dial is TRULY a prototype, the likes of which I have never seen.  The final 7A that my early 500 is the production version they came up with.  Your prototype model is quite elongated from side to side in the mechanism.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Craig T on April 01, 2010, 08:26:30 PM
The phone looks fantastic with those newly covered feet and a good wipe down. Excellent choice D/P. This phone is way out of my league, but I am sitting on the sidelines listening, learning and hoping I find the second one  :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 01, 2010, 08:56:37 PM
Craig;
That is exactly what I said to Dennis less than 2 months ago.

Bill;
Did Bell have there own color code system for resistors, from what I know, Black is 0, Red is 2, and violet is 7. Can you tell me how you get 100 with those colors ?
I would think with those colors it would be 7000, 72, 27, 270, 702, 207. Was maybe 100 average, and they put an exact value upon testing so maybe it's  actually 72 Ohm ?
I don't know for sure.
Once I get all of thew parts for the dial together, I'll post more detailed photos, I've certainly never seen another dial even closely similar to this one.

Dennis;
He really does nice work.
I think what I'll do is place a small Ziploc baggy inside with a list of all persons that helped on the parts, and what parts they were. Maybe even some original photos.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 01, 2010, 09:01:49 PM
The ABS arrived today for the fingerwheel. I'm going to attempt to make one myself, if I can't then I will find a machinist to do it. My main concern is getting a good finish on the wheel.

Bill;
By the way, if you go back and find that I've corrected my terminology on Varistor Vs Thermistor etc. I just want the thread to be accurate. So as I'm corrected, I will go back, and change what I've written, I will note the changes.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 01, 2010, 09:26:29 PM
Dan:

The color(s) on the resistor kind of baffle me too.  It is definitely a wire-wound resistor, which is the hallmark of that dog-bone shape.  The reason I called it a 100 ohm resistor in my earlier post is simply because the schematic of the Bell System announcement in the pdf file has it at 100 ohms.  I was at work and that is the only thing I had to go by from memory.  It is entirely possible that the prototype had a different value.  I am willing to be corrected on the exact value.  Normal color coding for a 100 ohm resistor would be brown-black-brown.  The red body with the black dot is puzzling.

Now that I am looking at the circuit in the Bell System technical Journal (BSTJ) article, it shows a 50 ohm resistor in series with the varistor.  50 ohms in standard color coding would be green-black-black, so I am now really baffled.

Probably the only way to know is to measure it with a DVM, but you have probably put it back together again, and I would not blame you for not wanting to go back into it.

I went back into mine, and there is no separate resistor.  Either they eliminated it in the production run, or they somehow built the resistance into the varistor properties.

By the way, you have done a marvelous job of making that into a real prize-winning phone.  It looks so nice now!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 01, 2010, 09:43:33 PM
Old wire wound resistor color codes.

According to this site:

http://www.vintageradio.me.uk/info/Componentinfo1.htm

The code is as follows, which uses the same colors as todays resistors.

The body is the first digit, which is red which is 2 -or-
Maybe it is orange, in which case would be 3....Hard to tell with my computer.

The end is the second digit, which is violet, which is 7
The spot in the middle is the multiplier which is black, which is no multiplier, just x1 (Or adding no zeroes to the end)

That would make the value 27 ohms, or 37 ohms depending on whether the body color is red or orange.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jester on April 01, 2010, 09:59:18 PM
The old girl's cleaning up nicely! :D  I see you decided to mount the two original feet on the back & put Dennis' recovered feet on the front.  Good call--it looks like the best way to mount the North feet on your base without calling attention to them.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 01, 2010, 11:01:55 PM
Bill;
I hope I didn't come across a being uppity, I just wasn't sure myself if it was even a resistor.
I did however mention 27 ohms as one possibility.
Thank you for the very kind words of encouragement.

Jester;
A certain degree of thought went into which feet would go where. I'm surprised anyone caught it that quickly.
So what was my reasoning ?
D/P

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 01, 2010, 11:05:35 PM
Bill;
I hope I didn't come across a being uppity, I just wasn't sure myself if it was even a resistor.


Dan:

You should be ashamed of yourself coming on so uppity!  Downright unacceptable behavior!

<April Fools>  :)

Not at all!

I must admit that I was pretty baffled.  I don't often get into old radios.  I knew there are other forms of the color code out there, but there are some things that I just can't figgure out.

Really, though, this has been one of the most enjoyable topics to come around in a long time.  And, I think there is some true research going on here into history.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 01, 2010, 11:12:53 PM
Bill;
I hope so. I have always been partial to 302's but this baby is turning my head.
D/P

Once again, if anyone wants to ask any questions or have certain photo posted don't hesitate to ask.  I will get the dial up soon. it is without a doubt the strangest part of the phone.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on April 01, 2010, 11:13:20 PM
D/P the pic of the bottom or "arse" as we say here looks very promising.

Nice job, keep 'em coming.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 01, 2010, 11:16:12 PM
D/P the pic of the bottom or "arse" as we say here looks very promising.

Nice job, keep 'em coming.

GPO;
Thanks you. We call bottom the same here, just spell it differently.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 01, 2010, 11:20:51 PM
Can anyone tell me the offset in degrees of the center of the fingerwheel?
I get 7 Degrees.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 01, 2010, 11:22:46 PM
Bill;
I hope so. I have always been partial to 302's but this baby is turning my head.
D/P

Once again, if anyone wants to ask any questions or have certain photo posted don't hesitate to ask.  I will get the dial up soon. it is without a doubt the strangest part of the phone.

That dial is well worth what you paid for the phone.

I suspect it is rarer than a WE #1 dial, Those sell for $1,000+
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 01, 2010, 11:30:19 PM
Jim;
This dial is clean, and works as smooth as glass.
Once again, it seems to work very smoothly, as close to a Princess dial I've sen on any WE phone. I'm wondering why they took this fairly simple design, and actually added what seems like many parts. maybe because it's so wide is what makes it appear to have fewer parts, but it sure seems to be a very uncomplicated design.
Of course after it's back together I might find out it drop digits left and right.
D/P

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on April 02, 2010, 12:00:41 AM
Can anyone tell me the offset in degrees of the center of the fingerwheel?
I get 7 Degrees.
D/P
I downloaded you picture into Digital Image.  This shows the side adjacent to the angle is 2.00 and the side opposite the angle is 0.24.  Using a tangent table, the tangent of 0.12 would be 7 degrees.

Is the fingerwheel 4 inches in diameter?

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 02, 2010, 12:29:15 AM
Dennis;
The fingerwheel is 2-15/16" diameter.
Thanks, sometimes my high school dropoutedness gets in my way.
Thanks again for those wonderful feet.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on April 02, 2010, 12:34:31 AM
Thanks. 

I was concerned that the new pads might not fit over the triangles on the base plate.  Looks like that was not a problem.  You are doing a really good job on this project.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 02, 2010, 12:37:49 AM
Thanks. 

I was concerned that the new pads might not fit over the triangles on the base plate.  Looks like that was not a problem.  You are doing a really good job on this project.

Dennis

Dennis;
Certainly not by myself though.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on April 02, 2010, 02:29:37 AM
D/P, how did you get the rest of the duct tape residue off the bottom?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Doug Rose on April 02, 2010, 08:12:27 AM
D/P.....what have decided on finishing the phone? Are you leaning toward having Ray Kotke make you a clear cover and handset? With the rarity of this great phone and dial, I would think you would want the insides to be seen, but also have a working telephone. This been a most entertaining thread. Your work here is top notch and you should be very proud....Doug
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 02, 2010, 12:53:52 PM
BOP;
I used Q-tips soaked in WD-40, I rubbed the WD on a small area, and left it soak for awhile. The glue still refused to come off. So I thought about what Bwanna had said, about scraping it off. I have a small plastic ruler on my desk, and I carefully used the edge on a spot that was off of the writing. Much to my surprise the residue came off with very little effort or pressure, it was still a dry powdery consistency, but came right off. I then carefully tried a spot by the lettering. It came off, and didn't leave a mark whatsoever anywhere. The rest came off with Q-tips and WD-40.
"No Phones were damaged in the making of this post."

Doug;
I'm very proud of all the support and help I've received.

I want the insides to be seen, then on the other hand I like the looks of the phone in the Henry Dreyfus photo. So for now, I will most likely have a Black cover, then when Money permits I would like to have a clear cover for show display. A third possibility is to remove the cover at shows for display, under a cover.
The thread is interesting to me, in the respect, that it is very exciting to be on the side of being able to touch  what others have written about rather than just reading it.
One other time I have had the privilege of actually having possession of an object that I had read about. My Dad owned a rifle, a Winchester model 1886, Cal. .40/82, the serial number on the rifle is 7. My Dad bought the rifle from a firend that was married to William F. ( Buffalo Bill ) Cody's Granddaughter. A popular ad in most gun magazines in the 60's was, "You can't own Buffalo Bill's Winchester, But you can own Winchesters Buffalo Bill'. It was to advertise the remake of a commemorative rifle of his original. We were able to establish that William Cody had purchased several different calibers of the new Model 1886 rifle made by Winchester in 1886, Winchester Archives said; "they knew he had purchased 5 different calibers of the rifle, but sales records had been lost in a fire.
I still have the rifle, so "YES, You can own Buffalo Bill's Winchester", You just can't prove it beyond a reasonably certainty.

D/P



Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 02, 2010, 01:34:49 PM
D/P,
You could always check Buffalo Bill websites and Museums.
There is a very slight chance that he kept his copy of the receipt and it ended up archived somewhere.
Just a thought,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 02, 2010, 02:19:57 PM
Perhaps this phone, and maybe your rifle, are perfect subjects for the PBS show History Detectives.

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/ (http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/)

It would be interesting to see what they can dig up about this 500.

The feet look great, and the phone is so clearly in good hands, nice work all around D/P!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 02, 2010, 02:36:30 PM
Nothing is more rewarding than acknowledgment from ones peers.
I wish I had a thousand of these, so everyone that wanted one, could have one.

I don't understand why I have this phone, but I do want everyone to know, I fully realize how significant it is, and promise to do my utmost to preserve it for the future of the hobby.
Now, I'm going to go look at it, and hold it....BWAAAAHHHAAAAAHAAAA! :o ::) :-*

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on April 02, 2010, 04:54:55 PM
BOP;
I used Q-tips soaked in WD-40, I rubbed the WD on a small area, and left it soak for awhile. The glue still refused to come off. So I thought about what Bwanna had said, about scraping it off. I have a small plastic ruler on my desk, and I carefully used the edge on a spot that was off of the writing. Much to my surprise the residue came off with very little effort or pressure, it was still a dry powdery consistency, but came right off. I then carefully tried a spot by the lettering. It came off, and didn't leave a mark whatsoever anywhere. The rest came off with Q-tips and WD-40.
"No Phones were damaged in the making of this post."

Great job on that and hats off for your patience.   Old duct tape goo is not easy to remove.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 02, 2010, 05:47:38 PM
I found another pertinent (sorta ) Article.
It is in the "Bell System Technical Journal"
January 1951
" The Ring Armature telephone receiver" (g-type handset).
I haven't read it yet.
Here is the link:
http://www.archive.org/stream/bellsystemtechni30amerrich#page/110/mode/1up
 It is mainly technical, there is a photo of them making sound measurements.
Jim

Note: the link has been  tweaked. The artical comes under page 110 on the link now. Sorry bout that .
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 02, 2010, 06:05:51 PM
Jim;
These links appear to be a book.  Is it and what is it's title ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 02, 2010, 06:08:40 PM
Jim;
These links appear to be a book.  Is it and what is it's title ?
D/P
It is in the "Bell System Technical Journal"
January 1951
" The Ring Armature telephone receiver" (g-type handset).
It is pretty technical. But worth noting for the documentation of your set.
You want page 110 of the book.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 02, 2010, 07:04:00 PM
So I thought about what Bwanna had said, about scraping it off. I have a small plastic ruler on my desk, and I carefully used the edge on a spot that was off of the writing. Much to my surprise the residue came off with very little effort or pressure,

D/P

so many people have been of such significant help on this project.  i am honored to have played just a tiny role.  :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 02, 2010, 11:15:43 PM
Donna;.
 No one knows it all, I've learned  if someone is talking about a subject, I feel I know a lot about, I still listen, maybe I missed something. Thanks it made a big difference in how the chassis looks.


I spent the afternoon and evening today, working on the new Fingerwheel. I finished after about 4 hours of hand work.
Here is the finished product, made out of ABS, and polished with Novus #2.
Let me know if it does the phone justice, if consensus is it doesn't look right, I will have a machinist make one. please don't spare my feelings, I want this phone to be as correct as I can get it.
I put the original broken one, and another W.E. fingerwheel to see how they compare.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on April 02, 2010, 11:39:34 PM
It's beautiful Dan!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 02, 2010, 11:57:08 PM
I mounted the Fingerwheel, and put a dial card in to see how it looks.
Isn't that a thing of beauty.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on April 02, 2010, 11:58:22 PM
Looks great. 

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on April 03, 2010, 12:00:16 AM
wow :o :o :o thats all i can say is just WOW :o
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 12:36:21 AM
Dennis;
I forget to mention, I used the Harbor freight lathe to make the wheel.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on April 03, 2010, 01:17:59 AM
Impressive - very impressive, you're a darned good machinist to boot.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on April 03, 2010, 04:32:02 AM
Very impressive!  Looks like a million bucks!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on April 03, 2010, 05:21:46 AM
Very nice job, Dan.  There's no way I could have created that finger wheel.  Beautiful!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 03, 2010, 07:28:11 AM
now that is real talent!!!!!!!!!! :o ;D :o ;D :o
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on April 03, 2010, 07:42:29 AM
First of all - fantastic job on the fingerwheel, it looks just as it should and I'm sure it operates and feels just as good. I think I speak for all of us by saying, the right person got this phone!

Another can of worms to open.....the Bell system number card also looks great and seems to be the way to go.  Question - are there any photos of 48's or 49's showing what Bell Labs put in for a card on trial sets ?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Netdewt on April 03, 2010, 11:53:06 AM
I mounted the Fingerwheel, and put a dial card in to see how it looks.
Isn't that a thing of beauty.
D/P

When you display it, will the original fingerwheel be next to the phone?

If you need a numbercard made, I'll make one for you.

Are you an experienced lathe-er? I'd love to get one and learn. Is the Harbor Freight one decent?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 12:14:16 PM
To be perfectly honest with you, I wasn't sure I could make it either, I was prepared to seek a qualified machinist, before I even attempted it. Since the material was $6.00 for Two 10" X 10" sheets I decided to try. My Dad was machinist by trade, and I a Millwright, Maybe paying attention to my Dad when growing paid off. I never owned a lathe until after he passed away.
The Harbor freight Lathe is a very good hobby and small parts lathe.  I have turned rotors for a motorcycle, they were 10" diameter. It's all manual as far as the feeds are concerned, and you can't make thread, but that what taps and dies are for.
Below is the closest i can find to what I think the dial card looked like in my phone, the Dial Plate "Z" is what I'm going by, and the date is about correct.
I would appreciate a card like the one in the photo. Blank Of course. Let me know if you can make one.
next is the rear cover for the dial, then mount it back on the chassis, Then the hard parts, Shell, handset, and cords.
D/P
 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 12:31:29 PM
Dan:

First, let me congratulate you on the excellent job of making that fingerwheel.  That is truly fabulous.

The handset should be pretty easy.  Any early bakelite G1 handset will be the one that is used here, with the T1 transmitter and the U1 receiver.  Early enough to have the notched cord stay built into the handle and not into the transmitter cup. 

The main problem with the handset, its elements or any remaining part to find would be the dates.  It just ain't gonna happen.  (Well all right maybe.  After all, you did find what you have).

From the readings, the handset cord should be straight, neoprene jacketed, and be of the early type.  When I say early, I mean a handset cord like the one on my 1951 500 that has the equalizer.  The ends on the inside of the phones only needed to go as far as the equalizer, and not all the way across the phone to the 425A network.  The lengths of the red, white, and white wires are very short as compared to the later cords, with the black being slightly longer.

Line cord....black neoprene  from an early phone.

Cover....probably any soft plastic black from the early 50's will have to do.

I would call Steve Hilsz and see if he has any of the parts.  However, I think it may take him a day or two to check his e-mails.  I believe he is out and about this week.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 12:48:30 PM
I think the Dial looks "right". You did a great job on the fingerwheel.

I agree with your choice of dial cards. I looked at a couple of early photos and that card appears  proper.

 I didn't look thru the dial center libraries, but A Bell labs dial center might be nice (if any were made).
For a phone # I would use a Murray Hill #, Your own phone #, 555-2368 , or leave it blank.

I think a phone # in it would look good, and would be right for a field trial set (Using this concept, then your Phone # is the best choice).

Usually  the phone #555-2368 was used in advertisement photos, Back in the day, dialing  this # would connect you to information. The official information # was different.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 12:53:37 PM
Bill;

I've contacted Steve, and he is going to look for me when he gets back home.
I'm thinking the cords are going to be the hang up, No pun intended. Since dates are not marked on any parts so far in the phone, dates won't be a factor, just same design.
I certainly wish I could come up with batch numbers for all of the parts.

D/P

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 01:06:29 PM
Bill;

I've contacted Steve, and he is going to look for me when he gets back home.
I'm thinking the cords are going to be the hang up, No pun intended. Since dates are not marked on any parts so far in the phone, dates won't be a factor, just same design.
I certainly wish I could come up with batch numbers for all of the parts.

D/P



You did mention 4 wire cord didn't you. (per the '49 report, the 500 set always had 4 wire cords).
Something I have been meaning to mention about the above photo is that the cords look gray to me.
 I think the field trial sets probably had black cords like  the Dreyfuss photo.

Jim
Off-topic for this set:
BTW I saw a referance that cords prior to 1951 may discolor light color sets, so colored phones should use a cord manf. after ?/51. I don't remeber the month but is was early (1st quarter)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 01:10:21 PM
Jim;
After finishing the finger wheel, it dawned on me that this is actually a good choice for a permanent wheel on production models, of course they didn't have bullet proof ABS then. the color never rubs off, it's very durable, and light, so easier on the dial mechanism.
A little side story on making the wheel. I don't have an index head for laying out equally aligned spots on a circle, so I had to draw the centers on my computer, then print it, then I used "Mod Podge" to glue the paper to the ABS. Then the hard part. My eyes, even with my glasses, could not focus on the tiny centers of the finger holes. So I took a very sharp center punch, and a jewelers eyeglass to locate the punch on center to make sure they were all in exactly the right spot. I've learned that even the slightest variation when finished will stick out like a sore thumb, when the wheel is return, it runs very true. The hardest part was removing the excess ABS from the rear of the wheel to get proper wheel height, from the dial plate. Abs is very durable, but soft. My next concern was getting it to shine. Very little effort using 800 wet sandpaper, the face down on a terry clothe towel with Novus #2. About 5 minutes hand polishing and it was smooth and very shiny. One drawback, it's not as Black I wish it were, it's more a deep, deep charcoal gray. However it doesn't look out of place.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 01:20:35 PM
Jim;
4 wire for the handset, and 3 wire for the line cord ? Bill says the handset cord is short leads with long black for EQ position.
Most early cords I've got are very stiff, is there any way to relax them ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 01:30:57 PM
Jim;
4 wire for the handset, and 3 wire for the line cord ? Bill says the handset cord is short leads with long black for EQ position.
Most early cords I've got are very stiff, is there any way to relax them ?
D/P

I would beleive Bill, I think he memorized the '49 report  ;D

Wayne Merit recently asked the same question regarding cord flexibility. I would contact him and see what kinda answers he received on the subject.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 02:50:42 PM
Here are several photos of the dial. I will have to make 2 posts to get them all in.
The dial has not been cleaned as of yet.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 02:53:04 PM
Dial continued..
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 02:54:42 PM
I really like the back side views of this dial. It is quite a find by itself.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 03:02:08 PM
Here are photos of the completed chassis, with the dial mounted. The only thing needed is the dial protective cover, which I will be making this coming week. I'm waiting for the colored Poly sheet.
All I need now are the outside parts.
It is very tempting to connect a handset and line cord to try it.
But I have saved a surprise for that.

Once completed, The first call to be made on the phone, I would like the forum to suggest, who should receive the first call from the phone once completed. There may very well not have been a call on this phone for the past 50 years.  
So give it some thought, and I will make a call to the person the forum selects.
It may not be for a couple weeks, depends on how soon I can find the rest of the parts.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 03:08:28 PM
Check with Paul F and see if he has a number for Don Genarro from Dreyfuss. If Don is still around. you should call him (record the call).
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 03:12:45 PM
Your Fail-safe back-up caller would be Paul F. You need to call him on your set either way.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 03:18:27 PM
Once this phone is compleate, you should use it as your "forum" phone, Whenever you call a forum member  (or any telephone collector) you should use this phone.
JMO,
Jim

BTW Do tell them you are calling on a field trial 500. That is a pretty neat concept for phone geeks.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 03:22:20 PM
Jim;
I get tingles thinking about it.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 03:25:17 PM
D/P:

Stunning pictures!

I can take pictures of the inside end of my 1951 handset cord (yes 4-conductor) when I get home.  I got stuck working today, so it will be later in the day.  From the reading, I believe the trial would have been the same handset as the one on the early production models, but WHO KNOWS???

I would have guessed that a 7A dial was used on the trial versions, and boy would that have been a mistake!

Jim, I think you are right.  I have read that report now so many times, I think I can even quote the dumb questions and answers sections too.  I keep saying that this is the most interesting thing I have seen in a long time.  It has really captured my attention
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 03:32:07 PM
D/P:

Stunning pictures!

Jim, I think you are right.  I have read that report now so many times, I think I can even quote the dumb questions and answers sections too.  I keep saying that this is the most interesting thing I have seen in a long time.  It has really captured my attention
Bill,
I personally like the Q/A about color sets.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 03:56:16 PM
After cleaning and lubricating the dial, The sound is quite unique.
I can only describe it as similar to second generation (702B) Princess dial in smoothness and quietness. The sound it makes can best be described as a very expensive movie projector. That rapid, precision, whir sound. Very quiet but discernible.
I don't know what the flaws were in the design, but it seems a good one got away. I have 45 phones on display in my man cave, and not one even comes close to the sound this one makes.
I have a microphone for my computer, I will dig it out, and try to capture the sound.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 04:00:47 PM
After cleaning and lubricating the dial, The sound is quite unique.
I can only describe it as similar to second generation (702B) Princess dial in smoothness and quietness. The sound it makes can best be described as a very expensive movie projector. That rapid, precision, whir sound. Very quiet but discernible.
I don't know what the flaws were in the design, but it seems a good one got away. I have 45 phones on display in my man cave, and not one even comes close to the sound this one makes.
I have a microphone for my computer, I will dig it out, and try to capture the sound.

D/P
D/P,

I suspect your dial was the best deisign, However cost per set was also a concern. The production model was probably the cheapest -vs-quality design that they could make.

I suspect all components on your set are superior to the production replacements.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bingster on April 03, 2010, 04:18:59 PM
Dan, the dial card in the photo you posted is a standard card.  There were three different size blank areas that were standard, and that one is the largest of the three, intended for three lines of text (exchange/number/extension).  There's one on the number card archive:

http://www.telephonearchive.com/numbercards/assets/wb_we_blank_or_form/300dpi/wb_blank_black_background_big_middle.jpg
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 04:51:04 PM

Bill,
I personally like the Q/A about color sets.
Jim

Yes, if I remember correctly, it was kind of "Let's not go there", after someone asked "You aren't really going to have a colered base with a black handset are you"??"

I can't remember the exact question, but yes,  it appears that any discussion about color was not even remotely anticipated by them.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 04:54:44 PM
Dan:

What are the colors on the dial wires?  My monitor makes it hard to get an exact reading.

Production dials (as we all know) were:

Pulse = Blue and Green
Shunt= White and White

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 04:59:30 PM
Bill,

There was also a surprised "where did you hear  that." I wish they would tell us. reply.
It made me chuckle,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on April 03, 2010, 05:18:03 PM
Superb job on that fingerwheel D/P, and you claim little lathe-ing knowledge, so modest!

Its all coming together, mighty fine looking.

I like the idea for the first call, no doubt the lucky recipient would remark how much better the sound quality is than the set they might receive it on!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 05:48:04 PM
The first call....  Dan, do you know anyone named Watson?


<sound from the crackly receiver>

"Watson, come here!  I need you."

The rest, they say, is history
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 06:08:19 PM
Bill,

The historic recreation was made on wax cylinder is available as a digital file on line some where. I used to have it bookmarked on one of my old computers.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 06:11:18 PM
Bill,

The historic recreation was made on wax cylinder is available as a digital file on line some where. I used to have it bookmarked on one of my old computers.

Jim
I think the hisrtoric recreation was made for the first transcontential call. It is heavily documented. Bell is sitting at a vanity.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 06:23:09 PM
Bill;
I feel somewhat embarrassed at the moment.
Pulse and shunt I know what they are, but not which wires are which.
To the EQ, are a Red Wire, then a White wire, They go to the terminals marked R, and W.
The other two wires are (Red and Brown Stripped), goes to terminal T, then what I call (brown) goes to terminal F.
The colors could be different, but not so different as to be confused with Blue and green.  the colors in the photo are fairly close on my computer.
Terminal W on the EQ, could be seen as yellopw wire, but the other is obviously Red. The wire going to Terminal T is obviously Red and Brown.
There is a blue and green wires coming out of the EQ, and going to the line switch. Then coming out of the line switch into the Network are a Blue and  a Green wire. Maybe this set is just wired a little differently.

Maybe after the EQ was eliminated the Green and Blue wire from the Line switch came directly out of the dial.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 03, 2010, 06:53:36 PM
Nice work on the fingerwheel, no way I could have created that.  About the only difference I note between it and the original is that the holes seem closer to the edge on the original, which is perhaps why the broke off.  However that's a minor quibble, your new fingerwheel captures the look and feel of the original, you even rounded off the inside of the holes it seems.  And those little rectangular holes for the number card assembly are excellently done!

So with this addition you have restored the chassis to ship shape.  Betting that you would be able to sell it for a good deal more than you paid for it. 

The dial is certainly unique, and it even uses what appears to be a nylon gear, ahead of it's time there.  Any idea if it works? 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 07:44:22 PM
McHeath;

I haven't yet metered the dial. I can do the in awhile and let you know.
Laying one wheel on top of the other they are matched as far a hole spacing is concerned. It even appears that the holes are smaller on the one I made but both are on at .500". When I saw the photo i had to go back and double check. The i remembered that the new wheel is 1/16" larger diameter. It's at 3", the original is at 2-15/16". It's amazing that .030 of an inch is that noticeable to the eye.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 08:34:03 PM
Here is a photo of the inside end of my handset cord on my 1951 500 that uses the equalizer.

4 wires; Red, white, white, and black.

Red, white, and white are all 2-1/8" from the end of the jacket to the tips of the spades.
Black is 4-1/2" from the end of the jacket to the tip of the spade.

The dial is wired this way:

One shunt wire is to R on the network
Other shunt wire is to GN on the network
One pulse wire is to F on the network
Other pulse is to RR on the network.

I will download a picture of your dial and I will identify on it which wires are the shunt and which are the pulse,  That will be easy to identify.

Stay tuned....
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 03, 2010, 08:37:25 PM
D/P:

Your dial photos are great.  One obvious question is: Why is a gear visible from the front?

Production 7A dials have a flat plate, no doubt to help act as a dust shield to keep junk out of the gears.  Not to mention it must be more expensive to make that box around the gear.

It seems likely that it is a viewing port for use during the experimental stage to allow them to put a strobe light on the gear to measure speed and regulation.

Looking at your photo 000_2772 (2).jpg, the contacts on the right are pulse contacts and the pair on the left are shunt contacts.  If you rotate the dial, you should see the pulse contacts vibrate for each digit.  You can see a finger on the plastic gear on the right that should activate the contacts.

When I get a chance, I'll post photos of my 1949 7A dial with the back dust cover removed so we can look for layout differences.  (Still looking for the rest of the set!)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 08:58:48 PM
Dan:

Paul-F's description is correct.  Here is a marked up photo.  The ones on the left are shunt, and would go to R and GN;  The ones on the right are the pulse and should go to F and RR

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 09:29:20 PM
Jim, Bill, Paul;
What is your take on the dial. Why would they abandon such a simple design ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 09:48:58 PM
Beats the heck out of me...

Ma Bell was very much motivated by cost.  Perhaps the 7a was more cost effective to produce.  The gear train in the 7A resembles the #6 dial much more than your prototype dial.

Maybe they also liked the coffee grinder sound of the more traditional Bell System dial.  That has been one of my objections of the Bell System dials as compared to the AE dials is the louder sound coming from the gears.  The nylon gear in your dial would have made a big difference in the sound, and you have even stated that your dial sounds more like a Princess dial than other dials.

Ultimately, I think it must have come down to cost, one way or the other.  The other thing is that the gear train in the 7A has a smaller footprint.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 03, 2010, 09:54:28 PM
Quote
i remembered that the new wheel is 1/16" larger diameter. It's at 3", the original is at 2-15/16". It's amazing that .030 of an inch is that noticeable to the eye.

Ah, that's it.  The slightly larger disk makes the holes look a bit further from the edge.  I don't think it's worth worrying about at all, and again you've done a spectacular job on making that fingerwheel from scratch. 

Paul notes something I too was curious about, the view of the gear from the front of the dial face.  Would certainly enjoy seeing pictures of a 1949 7A dial to compare.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 03, 2010, 10:03:22 PM
Jim, Bill, Paul;
What is your take on the dial. Why would they abandon such a simple design ?
D/P

Look at the production dial photos.  (Dial is 7A 10/49, rest of set is 1950.) 

It looks like they moved all the gears to a subassembly that could be tested seperately before being attached to the casting.  In the long run, mounting gears to a common metal plate is more stable and reliable.

The casting also doesn't have a ridge for the dust cover on the back.

You can see the handset cord terminated on the equalizer.

(http://www.paul-f.com/we/PF7A49castingS.jpg)

(http://www.paul-f.com/we/PF7A49backS.jpg)

(http://www.paul-f.com/we/PF7A49gearsS.jpg)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 10:07:27 PM
Here are some pics of my 1951 7A for comparison.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 10:11:49 PM
oops, I hadn't noticed that Paul also posted literally the same thing.  Looks like 49 and 51 7A dials were just about identical.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 03, 2010, 10:21:01 PM
Bill,

It's great to have additional data points.  When researching the 500-series articles, I was lucky enough to have access to dozens of early 500s, to help determine when some changes were phased in.  I'd really like to examine sets for every month of production up through 1953, as there were probably minor changes.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 03, 2010, 10:22:28 PM
The only parts you haven't investigated are the line switch and network.

While I was taking photos, I popped the line switch cover and shot these.  WE redesigned the switch cover and mounting bracket for manufacturing.

We know the production networks were potted.  I wonder if this early one is, or if the components are visible -- in case they wanted to tweak the internals.  Possibly they're different from the production components.

Do you feel lucky?

(http://www.paul-f.com/we/PF500LineSw50a.jpg)

(http://www.paul-f.com/we/PF500LineSw50b.jpg)


Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 10:23:19 PM
Jim, Bill, Paul;
What is your take on the dial. Why would they abandon such a simple design ?
D/P

I agree with Bill that it was probably a cost reason.  The footprint reason could of been part of the design change as well. Bell was interested in producing smaller dials for some of their other upcoming designs.

Stan may have some info in his new dial book. His book is supposed to finally be printed this May. It has  580 pages on dials. This book has been delayed for years. I posted a heads up about the book in the classified's.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 10:23:50 PM
The 49, and 51 A dials are much more compact. Cost savings alone in gear frame metal, would be substantial over several million phones. Basically they are very similar dials,  just laid out more compact, with a couple modifications.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 10:26:02 PM

We know the production networks were potted.  I wonder if this early one is, or if the components are visible -- in case they wanted to tweak the internals.  Possibly they're different from the production components.

Do you feel lucky?



I am betting they didn't pot the field trial sets. I suspect they wanted them av liable for  testing purpose in case of failure.  The components may even have dates.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 10:35:42 PM
If by Potted you mean the grease substance filling the network, yes this one is, because some had seeped out through the cover a little around the sides.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 10:39:39 PM
Boy, I am going to wear out my 51 from opening and closing it!   ;D

The hookswitch on mine looks identical to Pauls 1949, as does one from 1955.  The only difference is my 51 has a smoke colored make that black opaque cover and the 55 has a clear cover.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 10:39:47 PM
If by Potted you mean the grease substance filling the network, yes this one is, because some had seeped out through the cover a little around the sides.
D/P


Yep, That is "potting" Don't open it.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 10:57:23 PM
Here is the finger stop, re-chromed using the Caswell home plating system. Cost me about $25.00 for the kit, but I've re-plated many, many train parts back to like new condition. Works great.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on April 03, 2010, 11:03:57 PM
I opened up my 12/1950 set tonight to have a look inside.  I noticed the 7A dial has some similarities to Dan's.  I snapped a few pictures. By the time I logged on I see that you guys pretty much have it covered with the 1949 and 1951 models.  The 12/1950 dial looks more like the 1951.  Just to  have the middle year I'll go ahead and post the two photos of this 12/1950 dial.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 03, 2010, 11:06:57 PM

It looks like there were some changes to the network terminal layout...
   (Do you have a better photo of the cleaned network?)

(http://www.paul-f.com/wef/Net425A50.jpg)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 11:12:58 PM
Dennis:

A small difference, indeed, but the shape of the bends in your springs look like my 1951.  Paul's 49 look slightly different.  This would be isignificant, but a small difference nonetheless.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 11:15:36 PM
By golly, Paul, I think you're right!  Yet another one-of-a-kind feature of Dan's phone!  Dan, your phone is going to wind up being priceless. 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 11:21:15 PM
Here is the photo of the network. On the front edge it says..


Network W35148

Could that possibly indicate January 1948 ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 11:24:40 PM
Dennis's photo is a good photo of a back painted dial bezel.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 03, 2010, 11:25:29 PM
Bill;
If you are referring to the network, that maybe explains the color difference on the dial wiring, like I said maybe routed differently on later variations .

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 03, 2010, 11:31:46 PM
I believe the pulse contacts still would have had to have been connected to RR and F and the shunt to GN and R.  Just because I am sure they retained the same nomenclature for the connections.  The colors of the wires are immaterial, and maybe the phone you have was built before they landed on a standard for the colors we know today.

Could you check based on the marked up photo and see if the pulse wires do connect on the network to RR and F, and that the shunt contacts do connect to R and GN, regardless of actual wire color?

Thanks,

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 03, 2010, 11:36:40 PM
Here is the photo of the network. On the front edge it says..

Network W35148

Could that possibly indicate January 1948 ?
D/P

I'd hesitate to jump to that conclusion on a sample size of one unit.

We can probably guess that it doesn't stand for the 148th day of 1935.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 03, 2010, 11:42:36 PM
Maybe the 351st day of 1948?
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 12:05:18 AM
Bill;
Yes the pulse wires connect directly to the network at terminals RR, and F. The Shunt contact wires go to the EQ, then directly jumpered to Gn and R like you suspected.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 04, 2010, 12:11:55 AM
Excellent.  Yes, it doesn't matter if the shunts are connected to RW and W on the EQ or the R and GN on the network.  It is all the same.  Thanks for checking.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 12:17:48 AM
I mentioned earlier that I was able to connect a line cord, and the ringers did ring. Now if the line switch is the lifted, would it interrupt the ringing, or would a handset also have to be wired in to complete the circuit.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 04, 2010, 12:20:53 AM
On the earlier networks (like yours) and the 425A, there needs to be a transmitter in the circuit, otherwise, no workee.  That is not the case on the later 425B networks.  

If you have a spare handset lying around, connect the black wire to B on the EQ, one of the whites to W on the EQ, and the other white and the red wire to RW on the EQ, and you should be in business
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 12:31:50 AM
I lifted the line switch, and the phone kept ringing, I suspected I needed a handset in line, at least I hoped that as the case, Thanks, my heart is beating again.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 04, 2010, 01:53:33 AM
Wow, wonders never cease in this thread, now I've seen my first component of a 1949 model 500, Paul's dial. 

So D/P are you saying that you have not yet been able to get the phone to work properly?  Did you say that the seller said that there were green and red wires attached on a line cord still when he got it? 

Fingers are crossed that this phone will work!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 04, 2010, 01:43:32 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, as this thread has gone by so fast with so many things to digest.

Here is a link to the TCI website sample newsletters.   This is the January, 2009 issue of Singing Wires and an article by Russ Cowell and Paul Fassbender.

http://www.telephonecollectors.org/singwire/samples/0901sw.pdf

The reason for TCI posting sample Singing Wires newsletters is so that people can see the level of information that is available to subscribers of the newsletters.  So, since I am taking some liberty to posting a link to the site, I might as well put in a plug for the excellent information that is in these monthly newsletters, and recommend everyone subscribe.

Now, back to the topic at hand.  

Paul, you co-authored the article so correct me if I am going astray.  Picture #1 is apparently the trial version as stated in the article.  I read that article last year and what I am noticing for the first time is that photo #1 also has what appears to be a thicker dial finger wheel!  (Like Dan's)!  

There are so many things about this phone that are interesting, and this is one of them.  WE had black finger wheels for years.  I am wondering why they would have put a plastic or bakelite finger wheel out there on a trial, unless maybe that element was one of the trial things they were testing and then later decided to scrap and stay with the tried and true?

When Dan originally posted his picture and I saw the broken finger wheel, my first thought was that it was some kind of home-made replacement.  Looks to me now that this is yet another element of the real McCoy here, and another indication of the uniqueness of Dan's treasure.

Comments please

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 02:59:08 PM
I have understood that 180,000 trial sets were manufactured in 1949, yet in the last paragraph of page 1 and the first paragraph of page 11, It clearly states that because of complications at the Indianapolis plant, concerning start up issues, a delay was caused and production in 1950 was to be 180,000, but only half that made it into actual production. I'm wondering now, if the 1950 figures, were actually the first.  If they couldn't make 1950 quota, what makes anyone think they made any of the 1949 quota. My logic tells me back to square one, NO 1949 Production 500 sets were ever produced.
Paul has a 1949 dial, suppliers of parts to Indianapolis they likely found there way into early 1950 sets. It makes sense to me if there were only 90,000 1950 sets made and they show up regularly, if 180,000 1949 sets were allegedly made, WHERE ARE THEY. We can finds some of 90,000 sets, but none of 180,00 sets.
I've always said the simplest answer is USUALLY the correct answer. To explain why no 1949 sets can be found, would be much harder to answer than to say, they never made any.

JMHO

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 03:09:32 PM
One other portion of the article as stated by Donald Genaro was the fact that early field sets did not have dots, so I think that takes my set out of the original 50, and into the second run. It still has the first run 'Z', but also the later added dots.
My guess now is the 125 on the bottom is number 125, not one of the original 50.

JMHO
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 03:24:56 PM
Wow, wonders never cease in this thread, now I've seen my first component of a 1949 model 500, Paul's dial. 

So D/P are you saying that you have not yet been able to get the phone to work properly?  Did you say that the seller said that there were green and red wires attached on a line cord still when he got it? 

Fingers are crossed that this phone will work!
McHeath;
And wouldn't you know it,, it's my birth month.
No the phone works in all phases tried so far. I had it hooked up to the line to check the ringer again, and when I let the line switch up, it continued to ring, that is why I asked for a clarification. I suspected I needed a handset.
I really will not make, or take a call until the phone is completely finished, I plan to dial  and make my cell phone ring, but no conversation will take place.  I then hope  to place a call to the person selected to receive the first call, if they agree.
When i received the phone, if you look at my original photos you can see line, and handset wires were hastily cut at the spade connectors.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 04, 2010, 03:30:26 PM
I have understood that 180,000 trial sets were manufactured in 1949, yet in the last paragraph of page 1 and the first paragraph of page 11, It clearly states that because of complications at the Indianapolis plant, concerning start up issues, a delay was caused and production in 1950 was to be 180,000, but only half that made it into actual production. I'm wondering now, if the 1950 figures, were actually the first.  If they couldn't make 1950 quota, what makes anyone think they made any of the 1949 quota. My logic tells me back to square one, NO 1949 Production 500 sets were ever produced.
Paul has a 1949 dial, suppliers of parts to Indianapolis they likely found there way into early 1950 sets. It makes sense to me if there were only 90,000 1950 sets made and they show up regularly, if 180,000 1949 sets were allegedly made, WHERE ARE THEY. We can finds some of 90,000 sets, but none of 180,00 sets.
I've always said the simplest answer is USUALLY the correct answer. To explain why no 1949 sets can be found, would be much harder to answer than to say, they never made any.

JMHO

D/P

The 180,000 were to be production sets.
They made 50 field trial sets in 1948, and in 1949 they had 2,000 field trial sets. I think they used the '48 field trial sets in the '49 field trials. So there were either 2,000 or 2,050 field trial sets total.

 The delay of the 1950 sets were due to delays in getting the Indy plant up and running. The field trial sets were made in NJ (I think).


Production of the 1949 sets started in Nov or dec. of 49. It was a new start up line at the end of the year. These were made on an exsisting line, and not at Indy.
 Assume some sets were made,  Unless one of these sets were still in service (from the original install) they probably went back to the plant for upgraded rebuilds.  Only a small percentage of phones escaped being rebuilt.

When service was cancelled, they usually disconnected the phone and sent it in, they installed a new phone for the next subscriber. This was very common in the early days of 500 sets. Bell Probably did this to get the phones for rebuild to later standards on 500 sets.

I also read somewhere that total production of 500 sets by the end of 1950 was about 100,000.  Accepting 90,000 as 1950's, 2,000 as field trial sets, that leaves about 8,000 that may of been produced in Dec 1949.

Considering that most phone collectors ignored 500 sets for years (black 500 in particular). Some 1949 sets can possibly  be sitting in boxes in the back room of an old telephone collector .

 I suspect there are quite a few old 500's sitting around as "junk"  in club members sheds and basements. 500 set collecting (by date) is a relativly new aspect of the hobby.  Newer collectors are the ones that are really looking for the early 500's.  Old collectors liked wood phones, candlesticks and early desk stuff. They would buy cheap 500's but never paid any attention to them (I speak from experience).

If you want to find a 1949 production set , it helps to beleive they exsist. A good place to look is in the box of dusty old 500's that is shoved under the table at a phone show.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 04:05:53 PM
I can see it now, I walk into a phone show, look under a bench, and pull out a 1949 set, look at it, and proclaim; "They do exist", then proceed to faint.

Jim;
just playing devils advocate here. Over the years it has always been told to me, that when trying to figure something out, The simplest solution is USUALLY the correct one.    OJ did it.
Now my thoughts go to 49/500's, It took about 5 paragraphs to justify why 49/500 might exist. The I say, "they don't". Then is my training kicks in. Just having fun !!
We even have a reported 49/500 and we can't get a photo of it. I want more than anyone top find a 49/500, hopefully someday I might, but that would really be pushing my luck to the ultimate limit.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 04:19:03 PM
Paul;
If Donald Genaro is still with us, would you kindly email him a copy of the following photo and ask his opinion.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 04:23:57 PM
My Goodness, I just Googled Donald Genaro, it shows age 79, living in San Marcos, that's just 40, miles from me, is He one and the same. I'll drive the phone there Tomorrow if it's acceptable to Don.
It also said he succeeded Henry Dreyfus after Henry's death.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on April 04, 2010, 04:34:41 PM
Someone's been watching the M&M's Christmas Commercial!


I can see it now, I walk into a phone show, look under a bench, and pull out a 1949 set, look at it, and proclaim; "They do exist", then proceed to faint.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 04, 2010, 04:37:36 PM
My Goodness, I just Googled Donald Genaro, it shows age 79, living in San Marcos, that's just 40, miles from me, is He one and the same. I'll drive the phone there Tomorrow if it's acceptable to Don.
It also said he succeeded Henry Dreyfus after Henry's death.
D/P


Dan:

That would be an absolute coup if you could accomplish that!

My word, what a stroke of genius that would be.  Maybe he has a box of ten others in his basement.
Keep us posted.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 04:46:21 PM
Someone's been watching the M&M's Christmas Commercial!


I can see it now, I walk into a phone show, look under a bench, and pull out a 1949 set, look at it, and proclaim; "They do exist", then proceed to faint.

What, Who me, what are talking about ???? :o :o :o :o :o
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 04, 2010, 04:47:28 PM
This story keeps getting better and better all the time. 

You go D/P!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on April 04, 2010, 04:52:24 PM
If you can meet him Dan, bring a camera.  You can be the first in the field correspondent for Class Rotary Phones.  Reporting live.............You Were There!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 04, 2010, 04:53:58 PM
He may also be the most appropriate Watson for your maiden phone call.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 04, 2010, 05:49:22 PM
I can see it now, I walk into a phone show, look under a bench, and pull out a 1949 set, look at it, and proclaim; "They do exist", then proceed to faint.

Jim;
just playing devils advocate here. Over the years it has always been told to me, that when trying to figure something out, The simplest solution is USUALLY the correct one.    OJ did it.
Now my thoughts go to 49/500's, It took about 5 paragraphs to justify why 49/500 might exist. The I say, "they don't". Then is my training kicks in. Just having fun !!
We even have a reported 49/500 and we can't get a photo of it. I want more than anyone top find a 49/500, hopefully someday I might, but that would really be pushing my luck to the ultimate limit.
D/P

I feel that since the Bell System said they made them in 1949, they probably did.
My above statements were more to the point of why you can't find them.
JMO,
Jim

You should take your set to Don Genaro, While you are there you can asked if they made production sets in 1949.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 06:15:50 PM
I have to correct an error in my original post about not having produced any 49/500 sets.
I misread the data on numbers produced.  I had thought I had read that 180,000 sets were produced in 49, having just got off the phone with Paul, he corrected me, the estimated number of 49 sets was actually 4000, so it is very likely that this is the reason that they are so hard to find. Being that 90,000, 500's appear to have been made in 1950, that would explain why they are easier to find.
So sorry about my misinformation.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 04, 2010, 06:29:40 PM
Is that 4,000 production sets or 4,000 sets including the field trial and production sets?

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 04, 2010, 06:32:02 PM
While we are at the stage of correcting errors, I find it necessary to eat a little crow myself.  On April 1, Dan posted his photos of the insides of the equalizer, and had a little trouble with varistor versus thermistor.  There is one of each of these "istors" in the equalizer, so some confusion is not beyond comprehension!  After seeing what I had posted, Dan corrected what he wrote, and his corrected copy now stands as correct.

However, it seems I had a little dyslexia with my "istors" as well, which I have now corrected.  My post is #375 on April 1.  I have shown my correction with a strike-out.  I had originally said that the resistor was in series with the varistor.  It is, in fact, in series with the thermistor.

Whew.  That was a lot to explain.  Varistor, Thermistor, Resistor....Yikes.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 04, 2010, 06:43:19 PM
When Dan's set is compleate, We should make a seperate "locked" thread that has all the photos, and pertinent links and corrected info, A summation of key points might be nice. This point was brought up by someone many pages ago.


I have  corected some of my posts. and I think I still have some errors out there. This thread has been growing so fast that it gets hard to find my incorrect posts, and those are the posts That I realize are incorrect.

Also I am having trouble easily locating specific info within some of the documents. If someone wants to make a simple index of the 49 conference and the 4-51 BSTJ "key points". I would like a copy :D

If D/P can get a meet with Don Genaro, he should get a letter of authenticity for his set. we all know it is a field trial, but that would be a nice go with for D/P's display.

JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 07:31:16 PM
Is that 4,000 production sets or 4,000 sets including the field trial and production sets?

Jim

Jim;
Not clear on that but think it was production.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on April 04, 2010, 07:36:44 PM
When Dan's set is compleate, We should make a seperate "locked" thread that has all the photos, and pertinent links and corrected info, A summation of key points might be nice. This point was brought up by someone many pages ago.


If it was myself, (and I'm not claiming you are refering to my post atall) I suggested this would make a decent web page when its finished  - on its own with the posts here in an archive, and links etc, and of course lots of explanations/retractions and BIG sexy pics.

Surely enough reading and drama here to make an interesting stub to someones site or a site of its own I think.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 04, 2010, 07:40:23 PM
Is that 4,000 production sets or 4,000 sets including the field trial and production sets?

Jim

Jim;
Not clear on that but think it was production.
D/P
That is my guess as well. I think I saw a reference to 4,000 that alluded to production sets.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 04, 2010, 08:53:45 PM
Is that 4,000 production sets or 4,000 sets including the field trial and production sets?

Jim

Jim;
Not clear on that but think it was production.
D/P
That is my guess as well. I think I saw a reference to 4,000 that alluded to production sets.
Jim

After re-reading several of the articles, it appears that there is a distinction made between pre-production and production sets.

My current interpretation is that sets with internal components that look like the early 500 sets we've viewed (e.g. marked 7A dial, 425A network, 311 Equalizer, etc.) are the production sets.

Any other sets (including Dan's set, which matches the patent drawings) are pre-production sets.

The BSTJ April 1951 article, "An Improved Telephone Set" (link previously posted) clearly summarizes the field trials using those terms:

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 04, 2010, 09:05:14 PM
When Dan's set is compleate, We should make a seperate "locked" thread that has all the photos, and pertinent links and corrected info, A summation of key points might be nice. This point was brought up by someone many pages ago.


If it was myself, (and I'm not claiming you are refering to my post atall) I suggested this would make a decent web page when its finished  - on its own with the posts here in an archive, and links etc, and of course lots of explanations/retractions and BIG sexy pics.

Surely enough reading and drama here to make an interesting stub to someones site or a site of its own I think.

Most likely both.

I plan to put up a few web pages of the "Cliff's Notes" version, focusing on comparing the internal components with the patent drawings and a production 500.

To capture the spirit of the find as it unfolded, an edited version of this thread would be entertaining reading for anyone who wanted to know more.

In addition, there will be several short articles written which should provide an intermediate level of documentation.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on April 04, 2010, 09:09:41 PM
Nice one Paul, thought someone would have it all in hand.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 04, 2010, 09:14:35 PM
Paul,
If I am reading this right,
There were 50 1948 pre-production (marked* field trial sets) apparently  undated.
Then there were 4,000 early production sets. These may of been marked* field trial, or (probably?) not. These may of been dated(?) (since they were production sets I am thinking dated).

If the above assumptions are correct then Dan's set is probably a 1948 and he still needs a Birthday 1949 set.


* Marked field trial are with the verbage of Dan's set
{ for the record I have always leaned towards a '48, I have faltered a bit, But I still think all the D# components leans towards '48, I also thought there were '49 field sets and '49 production sets. It may be there were '48 field trials and 49 early production sets, Possiblly  '49 late production sets that are like(?) the early '50 sets}}


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul,
What are your opinions on my comments? I understand that this is only a opinion.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 04, 2010, 09:18:38 PM
Quote
Dan's set is probably a 1948 and he still needs a Birthday 1949 set.

You mean to say Dan needs to keep looking??  :o

My own humble opinion is that he has a '48, however, that particular project of R&D and trials and so forth didn't just all happen in one year.  We may never know......
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 04, 2010, 09:22:21 PM
Quote
Dan's set is probably a 1948 and he still needs a Birthday 1949 set.

You mean to say Dan needs to keep looking??  :o

My own humble opinion is that he has a '48, however, that particular project of R&D and trials and so forth didn't just all happen in one year.  We may never know......
I am thinking he does.  my guess is the '49 sets are dated and he was really wanting a '49. Of course he will probably end up with a funky looking engineering  model of a '47. Such is life.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 04, 2010, 09:26:56 PM
When Dan's set is compleate, We should make a seperate "locked" thread that has all the photos, and pertinent links and corrected info, A summation of key points might be nice. This point was brought up by someone many pages ago.


If it was myself, (and I'm not claiming you are refering to my post atall) I suggested this would make a decent web page when its finished  - on its own with the posts here in an archive, and links etc, and of course lots of explanations/retractions and BIG sexy pics.

Surely enough reading and drama here to make an interesting stub to someones site or a site of its own I think.

Most likely both.

I plan to put up a few web pages of the "Cliff's Notes" version, focusing on comparing the internal components with the patent drawings and a production 500.

To capture the spirit of the find as it unfolded, an edited version of this thread would be entertaining reading for anyone who wanted to know more.

In addition, there will be several short articles written which should provide an intermediate level of documentation.
Thanks for volunteering to do the web stuff Paul. This is a neat story. It needs to be "saved" in condensed form.  Regarding who said what and when. It wasn't me, but I agreed with the concept.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 04, 2010, 09:44:24 PM
When Dan's set is compleate, We should make a seperate "locked" thread that has all the photos, and pertinent links and corrected info, A summation of key points might be nice. This point was brought up by someone many pages ago.


If it was myself, (and I'm not claiming you are refering to my post atall) I suggested this would make a decent web page when its finished  - on its own with the posts here in an archive, and links etc, and of course lots of explanations/retractions and BIG sexy pics.

Surely enough reading and drama here to make an interesting stub to someones site or a site of its own I think.
gpo706,

 I suspect it was your post. I only recall seeing 1 posting on the subject. Paul's site is the best location for this info. He already has many pages on field trial and pre-production sets. Plus since I have his site on my desktop It will make it easy for me to find.
JMO,
Jim
BTW aren't you in C*net, if so contact Kyle ,  aka Bellsystem property
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 11:39:06 PM
I feel like Columbus I was looking for India, and found Cuba....
Well back to the drawing board.
Next time I'll be sure to see a date before I bid....Just my luck...
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 04, 2010, 11:43:29 PM
I feel like Columbus I was looking for India, and found Cuba....
Well back to the drawing board.
Next time I'll be sure to see a date before I bid....Just my luck...
D/P
Sorry, I won't say I told you so, but..........

Better luck on the next one D/P.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 11:48:06 PM
At this stage, I'm convinced it would be easier to change my Birth year than it would be to find the phone.

Has anyone ever stopped to think, Henry Dreyfus was only 68 when he died.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 04, 2010, 11:48:53 PM
I tell you what.  I'll trade you my 1951 great-shape production 500 for that piece of junk that doesn't even have a date on it.  And 1951 IS my birth year.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 04, 2010, 11:51:12 PM
Bill;
If I didn't have so much work in the set I'd go for it, but I'm in too deep. I hope you understand...
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 04, 2010, 11:57:44 PM
Darn.

You have a real prize there.  I think the whole community is envious.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 05, 2010, 12:51:04 AM
Yeah, there is some serious envious here. :D

A conversation with Don Gerano would be very interesting.  If he's 79 years old then he would only have been in his late teens when the 500 was developed, so he's not a first hand source, but he certainly may know a good deal about what happened in the development of the model that he learned after he joined the firm. 

As I recall Dreyfuss and his wife committed suicide together after learning about her terminal illness. 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 05, 2010, 01:07:06 AM
An article that Jon Finder wrote for Singing Wires in 2004 where he interviewed Genaro indicates that Genero joined the firm out of college in 1956, and was a part of the development of the Princess and made som very important contributions to its design, but he was not the lead person.

Apparently he was completely in control of the design of the 2500 and the Trimline.

Since he worked so very closely with Dreyfuss for 15 years up until his death, Genaro undoubtedly knows a great deal about the development of the 500.  Dreyfuss and Associates is not that big of a company, and as in any company, one gets to get a feel for the history of the company and he probably heard hundreds and hundreds of hours of war stories told within the company over the years from the "old guys"  That certainly happens in the company I work for and all the others I have ever worked for.

If it is possible for Dan to get in touch with Genaro, he is likely to start out by saying that he had nothing to do with the development of the 500, but could then morph into recounting many, many stories.

I have some friends who are into genealogy.  They repeatedly tell me that they are constantly going to the older people to get their stories and histories and memories; to put them down on paper and document things before critical things die with their grandparents, etc.  To me, this is a similar thing.  If we really want to know about these things we need to ask the questions and see if people like Genaro will oblige.  The worst he can do is say no.  If he says no, well that's the end of it.  If he says yes, then the possibility is that there will be some information that can be documented for all.

My two cents.

Gee, with all these gratis two cents offered by everyone each day, this forum can afford all the bandwidth it needs.

For the John Finder Singing wires, go to the TCI sample Singing Wires site at:
http://telephonecollectors.org/singwire/samples/0410sw.pdf
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 05, 2010, 02:05:58 AM
Paul,
If I am reading this right,
There were 50 1948 pre-production (marked* field trial sets) apparently  undated.
Then there were 4,000 early production sets. These may of been marked* field trial, or (probably?) not. These may of been dated(?) (since they were production sets I am thinking dated).

* Marked field trial are with the verbage of Dan's set
<snip>

Jim,

Where did you read this?  I don't recall reading anything about trial set markings on 500 sets, except on the bottom of Dan's set -- and we can't yet place that with absolute certainty.  Drawing any conclusions from a sample of one or two is risky.

As long as we're speculating, let me add a few more questions for additional pondering.


I'm sure this creative group can come up with many more possible scenarios from the few facts available. 
Such expansive thinking is a lot of fun and may lead to other possible areas for research.  Let's be careful to base our likely scenarios on the "facts in evidence."
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 05, 2010, 03:11:28 AM
1949 500 Description Progress

I'm getting some nibbles on requests for descriptions of 1949 set components.

Set marked 500 and 11/49 on bottom next to front left foot.


3-31-49-2 dated housing on a 10/50 set


Ringer


7A dial dated 11/49 (Looks like the 10/49 dial we've discussed.)

I'll have photos on the last 2 in a few days and hope to track down the owner of the first set shortly.

Evidence is mounting to support the guess that the 1949 sets were basically the same as the 1950 sets we've seen.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 05, 2010, 01:30:35 PM
Paul;
Just by looking at your 10-49 dial, I'm convinced within reason, that production sets starting in late 1949, were MOST LIKELY very similar or just like 1950 sets. I don't think at this point they looked like my set. I'm very convinced that my set is a Pre-Production, and that is all I will commit to, like you said; "Based on the evidence presented thus far." unless we are able to find photos, or documentation listing exactly what was in a pre-production set  including details, we may never know for sure.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 05, 2010, 02:14:40 PM
Paul,
If I am reading this right,
There were 50 1948 pre-production (marked* field trial sets) apparently  undated.
Then there were 4,000 early production sets. These may of been marked* field trial, or (probably?) not. These may of been dated(?) (since they were production sets I am thinking dated).

* Marked field trial are with the verbage of Dan's set
<snip>

list]


Paul,
Regarding the markings, I should of prefaced it with "assuming that".  I did not mean for it to appear as known fact.

I have seen similar markings on a field trial 302 set. (many years ago)
The reason I call the 302 a field trial set is
Base markings the same or very similar to Dan's set.
Metal body, ISTR small Plunger
E handset.
1 Cord hole in the back of the set for both cords
 Inside was a tag stating it was a field trial set and to return it to Bell labs for repair.
I examined this set in a collection around 20 years ago, I don't remember the exact verbage of the base or the tag. But the tag stated (or strongly implied) that the set was a field trial set.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 05, 2010, 03:12:09 PM
In my mind it does not take much of a stretch of the imagination to conclude for at least two reasons, that a phone clearly marked,

 "In case Of set trouble, Do Not Open, return to Bell Laboratories, Murray Hills, New Jersey"

The set is at least, NOT a Normal production Set.

ONE) Bell Laboratories, AS Far as I know was not in the Subscriber business.
TWO), NORMAL repairs would be left to the local phone Company.
I have to conclude, and really can not rationalize any other purpose for a phone being marked as such, was intended for any other purpose than some form of a test, and not a regular production phone.
I feel I can say with 99% certainty, that No 500 model production phone will ever be found with the components and configuration to match the phone I have. The single factor that convinces me is the writing on the bottom. As far as I know that writing  has never appeared on a production phone. if it has, I would love to see a photo of it.

After reading what Jim has read, contained in a previous, in his mind, confirmed Field test set/Pre-Production set, that my phone falls under the same blanket.

D/P

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on April 05, 2010, 04:29:51 PM

 I suspect it was your post. I only recall seeing 1 posting on the subject. Paul's site is the best location for this info. He already has many pages on field trial and pre-production sets. Plus since I have his site on my desktop It will make it easy for me to find.
JMO,
Jim
BTW aren't you in C*net, if so contact Kyle ,  aka Bellsystem property

I have no idea what C*net is Jim, taxing my brain enough trying to figure out my PBX!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 05, 2010, 07:36:43 PM
I just noticed something interesting on Paul F.'s site that others may want to check out and chime in.  Maybe it's just me, but . . .

The photos in the section on the model 500's development timeline include one of a trial phone with the O/Z lettering, and an early production model from 1949 with the curved "OPERATOR" lettering. 

Take a close look at the fingerwheel on the production model.  It's not reflective like the number card cover or the bezel.  I shined a lamp at the front of my 10/50 and the fingerwheel did reflect, but it could be something with the angle, although I couldn't reproduce the very dull look I'm seeing in the subject photo.  I'm wondering if this "production" model's fingerwheel might be made of the same material as the broken one that came with D/P's trial set.


Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 05, 2010, 08:44:05 PM
Ralph;
It is eerily similar, but as Paul has mentioned we simply can not categorize all  production phones based on one example.
Like you said even though it is similar it could be camera angle, or something as simple as a different batch of paint. I just wish we had a better paper trail.
I've attached a photo of my finger wheel.
If you notice the Singing wires photo of the Z dial, the finger wheel is the blackest part of that phone.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 05, 2010, 09:07:19 PM
Here are 4 photos I thought might be of interest.
#1- Western Electric Buildings B & C circa 1899.
#2- Western Electric Buildings A & D under construction circa 1900.
#3- Murray Hill Drafting Department Circa 1949, Notice No Cad programs, no calculators.
#4- A group of draftsmen discussing Pre-Production 500 model. Guy in the back, says; "Here are my detailed drawing for the pre-Production sets, Notice I've carefully numbered and dated all parts for future identification."
The guy on the far left says; "No No, that's totally unnecessary, no one is going to care what these parts are, or when they were made, just a waste of man power to mark them, Remove those numbers etc. and resubmit the drawing to me for final approval"

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 05, 2010, 09:45:21 PM
I was going to clean up the shell mounting screws, when I noticed one was bent.
I wonder if that indicates that when someone attempted to remove the shell, the screw wasn't out all of the way, and they just ripped it off ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 05, 2010, 09:56:57 PM
I was going to clean up the shell mounting screws, when I noticed one was bent.
I wonder if that indicates that when someone attempted to remove the shell, the screw wasn't out all of the way, and they just ripped it off ?
D/P

I think they droped the phone, bent the screw and broke 1 or both housing screw bosses. Since they still liked using a rotary phone they "fixed" it with duct tape.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 05, 2010, 10:28:54 PM
Good theory, it does seem to have been dropped at some point as the broken fingerwheel and bent screw hint at. 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 06, 2010, 12:14:21 AM
I just noticed something interesting on Paul F.'s site that others may want to check out and chime in.  Maybe it's just me, but . . .

The photos in the section on the model 500's development timeline include one of a trial phone with the O/Z lettering, and an early production model from 1949 with the curved "OPERATOR" lettering. 

Take a close look at the fingerwheel on the production model.  It's not reflective like the number card cover or the bezel.  I shined a lamp at the front of my 10/50 and the fingerwheel did reflect, but it could be something with the angle, although I couldn't reproduce the very dull look I'm seeing in the subject photo.  I'm wondering if this "production" model's fingerwheel might be made of the same material as the broken one that came with D/P's trial set.


The 1949 set photo is "representative" of what the 49 set probably looks like, until we find photos of a real 1949 set.  (It most likely looks exactly like the early 1950 sets.)  At least the dial is accureate.  It's the 10/49 dial I posted photos of in this thread.  The fingerwheel is definitely metal.

Thanks for the comment.  I've revised the photo captions.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 06, 2010, 12:29:04 AM
Maybe Dan's broken finger wheel was the deciding factor to go metal ;D
----------------------------------------------
 I haven't  had a chance to ponder  "Paul's Points to Ponder" yet.
Something I did notice was the fact that the phones were all dated. That is worth pondering.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did come across a referance that the new sets were mentioned in the 1949 annual report. I haven't tried finding that report yet.
The annual report may of been written by the folks in marketing and may not provide "solid" info.

The 2 main reports we have been discussing were written by and for engineers. Engineers tend to be specific and precise.
 Marketing guys aren't

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on April 06, 2010, 12:45:12 AM

The annual report may of been writte by the folks in marketing and may not provide "solid" info.

The 2 main reports we have been discussing were written by and for engineers. Engineers tend to be specific and precise.
 Marketing guys aren't

Jim
Jim

A number of years ago we were getting ready to introduce a new product.  As we approached the launch date, I was given a product description cut out from an advertisement.  After reading it, I told engineering we were going to have a problem because someone was introducing a product superior to ours with more features. 

I later found out the product description was a marketing ad by our company about the product we were about to introduce.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 06, 2010, 01:00:01 AM
Dennis,
That's the kinda stuff I am talking about.
 The Engineers make  distinct points reffering between  pre-production sets, and early production sets.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 06, 2010, 01:02:07 AM
Paul,
Is the label on the 11/49 set a paper label or is painted on?
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on April 06, 2010, 08:20:35 AM
Good theory, it does seem to have been dropped at some point as the broken fingerwheel and bent screw hint at. 

As was mentioned in the literature - many of the test phones were "thrown to the floor".  I would imagine this might have been done right before the tear down of the phone. Use them, take notes, then see what kind of abuse they can withstand, & take more notes. D/P, yours could very well be the only substantially complete field set.

To repeat - my wife's grandfather worked at Murray Hills in the 1940's and it's his son who today feels that Bell Labs would rarely leave a test phone intact, which surely is why these simply don't exist today. The more one looks at the history of prototypes and field test models, the more it seems that they are rare, even unique. Yours may be the only one we see for many years, or ever.


My two cents on the shell & handset - I think having this phone look as close as possible to what it looked like in '48 or 49 is the way to go...the shell can be propped open to reveal the inside.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 06, 2010, 01:20:03 PM
Having personally been on the inside of a General Motors plant that did substantial
prototyping in the Era of the EV-1 Electric car, we had several of the Chevettes in our Anaheim warehouse in various stages of conversion to electirc vehicles, John Dunham the head engineer on the project, had a satellite office hidden so to speak in our warehouse. When he finally moved his operation back to his home plant, we were ordered to destroy, and dispose of all of the Chevettes and parts. We had 15 Brand new Chevette motors wrapped in shrink wrap on palets in racks. Taken down and smashed with sledge hammers, and put in large bins for recylcing. Several employess had Chevettes, and we were firmly told not to salvage any parts. The Bodies and contents were Hammered, and towed away to who knows where. Same thing with updated or obsolete equipment. I've seen no less than 10 Hobart Tig welder units, used in line production, in working condition, smashed into oblivion, and thrown in dumpsters.
THE REASON... GM simply could not take the risk, of someone getting injured on items, or parts traced back to GM, it had nothing to do with the secrecy, or taxes.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 06, 2010, 01:26:52 PM
Drew;
Does your Wifes Dad have any paperwork or memorabilia laying around in an old box somewhere. My Dad passed away 20 years ago, and I still run across old papers periodically. (No pun intended, Old Papers Periodically, Get it ).

I'm also leaning towards your thoughts as well, on how to present the phone.

A question to everyone, if that is how displaying the phone ends up, what about the markings on replacement handset, shell, elements etc.
Should they be removed, or left intact.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bingster on April 06, 2010, 01:43:01 PM
Personally, I'd leave any markings intact.  You know they weren't there originally, so there's no point making them appear original in every detail.  Besides, removing the markings from a shell eliminates that shell's own history. 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 06, 2010, 02:10:18 PM
I was thinking last night as I was talking to Jim Stettler on the phone about this thread that once you get a cover for the phone, it will then look like most any other black 500, which might just wind up being kind of a let-down.

Then I got to thinking.  Even though the insides of your phone literally shout "Hey, look at me, I AM A TRIAL PROTOTYPE!", it would still only be us, the collector comminity that would know the difference.  To most people, it would look like any other phone with the cover removed.

So, either way, to the untrainied eye, this is going to wind up looking like "any old black 500"

My thinking is that if you get a cover, from, say a 1950 or 1951 phone, complete with handset and cords, it will be as original as you can make it.  Even with the cover on, the dial, itself, tells the collector what a prize it is.  Then,if you take the cover off, it really reveals the whole story, with the trial dial; the trial ringer, and the slightly different unmarked trial version of the 425A network.

Kind of like the waiter in the fine restauant that "presents" the dinner to the diner, by lifting the cover off the food.  Kind of a "Ta-Daaaa" moment.

Oh do I get carried away sometimes.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 06, 2010, 02:11:13 PM
Bingster;
you bring up a valid point. I'm going on the assumption, that I will NEVER run across any original parts for this phone, when in fact someday I might. At that point replacing them would leave the orphaned shell, handset etc., without an identity. Maybe I could find some form of fingerpaint, or tempra paint in black to temporarily hide the original figures.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 06, 2010, 02:17:09 PM
Bingster;
you bring up a valid point. I'm going on the assumption, that I will NEVER run across any original parts for this phone, when in fact someday I might. At that point replacing them would leave the orphaned shell, handset etc., without an identity. Maybe I could find some form of fingerpaint, or tempra paint in black to temporarily hide the original figures.
D/P
Blacking it out with tempra would accomplish the purpose and would be reversabile.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 06, 2010, 02:22:42 PM
Bill;
Even with  the cover removed, all but a few realized what it was. 130 people looked at it, only 2 bid.
So me thinks, it will have to be clearly promoted wherever it is, or like you say, it will be just another clean looking 500 with an odd dial.
I had a similar conversation with Paul the other night, and even though we don't like to admit it, 99.9999% of the people really don't have an interest in our phones, and wouldn't know it if it fell on their head.
I related to Paul, that me and my Ex wife bred Shelties, and have a bloodline that goes way back to the start of the breed over 100 years ago. At the time, I could tell you the lineage of all of my dogs, and point out, 'OH That's down from So and So", The usual comment was 'WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT", most didn't care. Such is the nature of the beast we call 'collecting'. No better example of that than this phone. "One mans trash, Really was another mans TREASURE".
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 06, 2010, 02:24:36 PM
D/P:

Well put.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on April 06, 2010, 02:36:52 PM
My dad and I complain about this all the time.  It's terrible when you enjoy something so much and nobody in your life enjoys it.  I'm glad you guys are here otherwise I'd not have nearly as much fun with phone collecting.

Bill;
Even with  the cover removed, all but a few realized what it was. 130 people looked at it, only 2 bid.
So me thinks, it will have to be clearly promoted wherever it is, or like you say, it will be just another clean looking 500 with an odd dial.
I had a similar conversation with Paul the other night, and even though we don't like to admit it, 99.9999% of the people really don't have an interest in our phones, and wouldn't know it if it fell on their head.
I related to Paul, that me and my Ex wife bred Shelties, and have a bloodline that goes way back to the start of the breed over 100 years ago. At the time, I could tell you the lineage of all of my dogs, and point out, 'OH That's down from So and So", The usual comment was 'WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT", most didn't care. Such is the nature of the beast we call 'collecting'. No better example of that than this phone. "One mans trash, Really was another mans TREASURE".
D/P

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 06, 2010, 02:53:04 PM
Tom, you said a mouthful.  I connected with a local guy from another collector/hobby website and it's been great to share collecting experiences with him as well as work on stuff together.  That's how I got my kick-ass 1985 Thermador dishwasher secured and installed, and I'm now working on him to get a land line installed so I can turn him on to a 500 and he can be a part of the rotary phone community.

D/P, what if you just used something like a Post-It to cover the dates on the shell and, if possible, the handset?  You could use black felt pen on the paper and then just stick it over the offending date.  I definitely think the dates need to stay on the parts in case you end up changing them out later.

It's absolutely true what has been said about people just seeing an old black phone, and not the Mother Of All 500's, but let's say you took it to a phone show.  If you displayed it under glass and with cover propped up or removed to expose the trial components, you'd draw a crowd, and you wouldn't have to open up the handset in a way that would show the dates anyway.  My suspicion would be that the handset elements on the trial set would have looked more or less the same as on production models, although we may never know for sure.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 06, 2010, 11:35:01 PM
 A few assorted replies from early in this thread.
The dial "aiming" dots , came from the Life magazine Article 12-12-49.
http://books.google.com/books?id=VUEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA67&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

D/P I am think you should maybe go clear on the plungers. This is because the clear plunger ad also shows a base that appears to be the same features as you base. Just a thought.

Regarding covering the date stamps. Someone might try cover an early (non-readable) date stamp with black sharpie and see how it looks, You can remove sharpie by writing over it with a dry erase marker and then wiping it off.
Hopefully this doesn't remove the date stamps.

I am still pondering Paul's points.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 07, 2010, 12:44:31 AM
A couple of things from the article in Life. 

First they note that the payphones of the time already had the numbers outside the dial, is that correct?  Anyone got a picture?

Also I notice that what we call "candlesticks" they call "uprights".  Is that the term used by contemporaries to describe those phones?  If so then why did we start calling them candlesticks?

Looks like they have a production 49' or early 50' model in the picture.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 12:45:38 AM
Jim;
So much to pour over, I don't remember where the photo was of the clear plungers.

The plug that might have been on the end of the line cord, would it have been like the one below. if not does anyone know what it may have looked like if they even had a plug then ?


D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 07, 2010, 12:49:07 AM
A couple of things from the article in Life. 

First they note that the payphones of the time already had the numbers outside the dial, is that correct?  Anyone got a picture?

Also I notice that what we call "candlesticks" they call "uprights".  Is that the term used by contemporaries to describe those phones?  If so then why did we start calling them candlesticks?

Looks like they have a production 49' or early 50' model in the picture.
McHeath
They used to be called upright desk sets. I don't know when the term candlestick phone came into use.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 07, 2010, 12:52:41 AM
Jim;
So much to pour over, I don't remember where the photo was of the clear plungers.

The plug that might have been on the end of the line cord, would it have been like the one below. if not does anyone know what it may have looked like if they even had a plug then ?


D/P
My Gueuss is that they hardwired to a 42A block with a brown cover. If they were portable then they probably had a switchboard style plug like the portable 302's.

You should be able to get a 42A w/ brown cover pretty easy.
  The clear plunger ad is at
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/category/communications/telephone/page/7/
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 12:53:46 AM
Paul notes on his site, Bell System technical journal states in April of 1951 that the,
 
"50 pre-production field test sets, have,

 Internal components similar to the patent drawings...Mine match perfectly for the ringer and the line switch.
Aluminum Dial mount, Like mine has..

 Bell coil wrapped in olive cloth...Just like mine.

 Aiming dots, visible through the fingerwheel holes....Just like mine.
The photo posted shows black plungers, I don't see any evidence that points to anything other than a 1948 Field test set.

D/P
 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 12:59:50 AM
I wonder what their source was for that article..it's dated JUNE 1949
It clearly states that....The new instrument developed by Bell is STILL undergoing tests....SOME trial installations will be made this year '1949'....But regular production by Western Electric, will NOT GET UNDER WAY UNTIL LATE 1950 ????

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 07, 2010, 01:06:08 AM
I wonder what their source was for that article..it's dated JUNE 1949
It clearly states that....The new instrument developed by Bell is STILL undergoing tests....SOME trial installations will be made this year '1949'....But regular production by Western Electric, will NOT GET UNDER WAY UNTIL LATE 1950 ????

D/P
"In Events in Telecommunications History", They anouce the first supply of new 500 sets on June 2, 1950.
I think that is what LIFE is refering to.
I think the sets started rolling out in 1949. But system-wide introduction wasn't until June 1950.
LIFE was a National Magazine. So I suspect that Late 1950 was the target was system-wide avaliablity.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 07, 2010, 01:11:50 AM
Here are the links from this thread. I was having trouble with Paul's link and the internetarchive links but they worked if I copied and pasted them.
LINKS


Radio & Television News Feb. 1953
http://www.porticus.org/bell/pdf/500set_adv.pdf

 Notes on the 1949 conference
http://www.telephonecollectors.org/DocumentLibrary/WesternElectric/500-Set-Design-1949.pdf

 4/51 BSTJ article
http://www.archive.org/stream/bellsystemtechni30amerrich#page/238/mode/2up
The article starts on page 239-270 on the page counter.

" The Ring Armature telephone receiver" (g-type handset).("Bell System Technical Journal" January 1951

http://www.archive.org/stream/bellsystemtechni30amerrich#page/110/mode/1up

Dreyfuss Photo:

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/79f7ddd94338f795_landing
or (links to life archive w/ related photos)
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?imgurl=79f7ddd94338f795&q=telephone%20source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtelephone%2Bsource:life%26hl%3Den%26tbs%3Disch:1

Life Magazine Article 12-12-49
http://books.google.com/books?id=VUEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA67&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Spring 1950 photo from the shareholder meeting:
http://www.archive.org/stream/belltelephonemag00vol2930amerrich#page/n15/mode/1up

Clear plunger/ no rivet, modified frame by ringer vol. control, location of  LOUD ad
 
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/category/communications/telephone/page/7/

G proto-type design photo from 1946
http://www.porticus.org/bell/images/dreyfuss_handset_prototypes.jpg
Paul F’s site on 500 development proto-types. Includes patent #’s
http://www.paul-f.com/weproto.html#500


Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 07, 2010, 03:26:21 AM
D/P, that plug you have looks to me like it's way later than what would have been on your phone.  The earlier 4-prong plugs were square shaped with rounded corners.  I don't think I've ever seen a black one, though.  Usually they're ivory or beige, or color matched to the phone set and associated cording.

All of that having been said, I really like the looks of that black one and it would look good with your phone.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Drew on April 07, 2010, 07:18:29 AM
D/P,  I'll be talking to my wife's father about your phone again and hope to visit him by this summer and see if he has any material on Bell Labs or Western Electric. I do know he has hundreds of boxes of papers (I'm not kidding).  My guess is most of it is the kind of material you would expect a retired physicist to have, very technical and near impossible for most of us to understand. One thing he may have is electronics magazines from the 1940's and 50's with articles on telephone advancements.

As I mentioned before, his father was working with Bell Labs during WWII working on radar development. Family lore is that it was very stressful - working 20 hour days.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on April 07, 2010, 10:31:43 AM
With regard to the 4 prong plug.  That 505A plug (the round black one) is much later, probably from the early 1960's.

I don't know what the time-line is for four prong plugs.  Here is a couple shots of an early one on a 302 that Jonathan just posted.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2327.new#new


I've got a couple of those in Brown, unfortunately each has a minor defect of some kind (chips).  They were the precursor to the 283B, I believe.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 12:57:00 PM
Dennis;
Thanks for the link, I was thinking most likely the round was later. Now looking at the 302 plug, I'll have to dig out my bag and see if I have one like it. Doesn't look familiar.

Drew;
Just maybe in all of his rheems of paper he may have the missing 500 links.
Please be specific as tom what we are looking for. Field testing, 500 production anything alonew those lines.
D/P
 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 12:59:35 PM
Drew;
There is speculation that the 500 project may have been a prewar project that was put on the back burner because of the war effort. Maybe he was part of that and pulled for other more vital projects.

Dan
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on April 07, 2010, 04:35:03 PM
Dan/P

I've a modest idea for display, Make a perspex cube base minus front  (if you see what I mean) and have 45 degree slot in the sides so you can mount a mirror in, you can sit your find on the top and folks can read the base (well in reverse they can).

Saves you having to upend it for curious telefanatics like us.

I'd obviously put a nice clear dust box over it as well, unless you're happy with having folks handle it and having to clean all their greasy prints off at the end of the night.


I've seen identical displays in musuems to show the base of artefacts.




Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 04:42:58 PM
GPO;
Yes I see what you mean. Don't touch Please. :o

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 04:48:26 PM
Can anyone direct me to documentation or more examples of the D# system. I have my thoughts on it and want to research further.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 07, 2010, 05:56:01 PM
d/p..i think i have a 4prong plug like dennis is talking about. if you think that is what you need i will dig it out. or i could dig it out & post a pic....then you can decide if you want it.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 07, 2010, 06:03:52 PM
Dan/P

I've a modest idea for display, Make a perspex cube base minus front  (if you see what I mean) and have 45 degree slot in the sides so you can mount a mirror in, you can sit your find on the top and folks can read the base (well in reverse they can).


I'd obviously put a nice clear dust box over it as well, unless you're happy with having folks handle it and having to clean all their greasy prints off at the end of the night.


I saw a neat Display of ericofons that Richard Rose had at a show.
He made dowel shelfs with 2 angled mirrors, so you could see the different dial faces non-reversed.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 07, 2010, 06:05:29 PM
Can anyone direct me to documentation or more examples of the D# system. I have my thoughts on it and want to research further.
D/P
Paul F is probably about the best (only?) source for that info.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 07, 2010, 06:10:10 PM
Regarding Plugs:
I think that Dennis's plug photo is the earliest style of 4 prong plug. I am not sure when they came out.

The earlier plug was switchboard style and was used on B and D mounts,
I am pretty sure is was also used on some 302's.
There is a BSP for jacks and plugs.
I will see if I have an early copy or if I can find the #.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 06:29:50 PM
Bwanna;
Would you post a photo.

I feel lucky once again. I found two vintage 3 wire line cords on ebay, the guy wanted $11.95, but they didn't sell. So I offered him $10.00 for two of them. He sent them, and they arrived today.
They are hefty, old style rubber (Not Vinyl) with the correct ends, they even have the correct curve in the cord at the chassis mount, very hefty brass, not the thin flimsy newer type, and the bonus, N.O.S., without any markings, no date, nothing how perfect.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 07, 2010, 06:34:08 PM
Plugs BSP Info

 My issue is BSP C36.201 issue 5, April, 1954 AT&T standard
Jacks and Plugs   Types for inside locations
1.02 (paraphrase)  reissued to include C24.201, C36.201, C36.245, C36.260 and C63.731

2.04 mentions that all sets must be subset style or combined sets (302,500).
This is because of wiring.
I suspect subset styles used the switchboard plugs and 302's, 500's used 4 prong jacks and plugs

5.02 It appears that in April, 1954 the proper plug was283B-type, colors are ivory or brown.

It doesn't have a drawing of 283B
The 293B is square with "ears".

Earlier issues or the other refernced BSP's would give you more accurate info.

I am thinking  a BSP form 1950 would be a good referance if you can find one.


Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 07, 2010, 06:38:19 PM
D/P,
 Regarding  your (needed)  handset cord (w/ long black conductor). I have seen some photos of repaired cords on the forum. Perhaps you could re-do the end of the cord to create a long black conductor.
Just a thought.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 06:56:32 PM
Jim;
I think that's what I will need to do.
I don't have a problem with that as long as I can find one with the tapered end at the handset. Like the one below. This one is a 3 conductor that came on the 202 with the F1  handset I used to duplicate my Childhood photo.

Bwanna;
I was simply adorable wasn't I...... ::)

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 07, 2010, 07:22:43 PM
Doesn't it need a long black conductor at the set end (for the equalizer)?

The cord also needs to be 4 wire and made for use with prongs vs screw.

The taper looks like the photos. The clear plunger ad may have a stubbier gasket. It is hard to tell.

The biggest concern is to find the closet cord that you can.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 07, 2010, 07:37:14 PM
still are, d/p ;)  give me a few to find that plug......working on my taxes right now...ugh :(
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 07:39:33 PM
Jim;
Yes the Black wire needs to reach the Network in the normal spot, then the 2 white and 1 red have to reach the EQ.
The handset end needs to connect to the handset like the one below. This is from my 1951 500.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 07, 2010, 08:47:14 PM
Vern P is looking for a 4-conductor black G type handset cord with the ends that are made for the equalizer.  I haven't heard back from him yet, however.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 08:57:20 PM
still are, d/p ;) 



Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 08:58:39 PM
Vern P is looking for a 4-conductor black G type handset cord with the ends that are made for the equalizer.  I haven't heard back from him yet, however.

Tell him to take his time.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 07, 2010, 10:13:01 PM
Can anyone direct me to documentation or more examples of the D# system. I have my thoughts on it and want to research further.
D/P

<snip>
My guess on the numbering is that the D- numbers are unique to the macro design of the component.  In past club discussions the D was speculated to stand for "Design" and related to a Bell System design specification.  The D- number on the bottom of a set typically related to the overall spec for the complete set, while the D- number on a component (e.g. ringer) related to the spec for that part.  If there was a major change to the design, the next one made to the new spec would get a new D- number.

Checking other sets on my site (http://www.paul-f.com/weproto.html) shows that sets in the 20s - 31 used Y- numbers, from 32 - 50s used D- numbers and in the 60s - 70s used F- numbers.  Some have speculated that the F stands for "Field Trial" but I know of no definitive source to confirm that.

An example of one set with different F- number versions is the 1960 Contour.  Another project is finding samples of both versions to document the differences -- but that's a discussion for another topic.
<snip>

If the Bell System assigned numbers like engineering firms I worked for several decades later, there was a clerk who maintained the master number assignment list. When an engineer needed a code for a new part, a quick call to the clerk got the next available number on the list.  Unless there was a compelling reason, there was no master numbering plan to assign numbers based on the component's form or function.

The primary real purpose of the D- numbers may have been for the accountants to accumulate material and labor costs of each component during the development phase.
<snip>

I probably have some other examples somewhere in my notes.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 07, 2010, 10:33:42 PM
Regarding the F#'s. The clear soft 500 from 1958 has an F#. I have been told they were displayed in telephone offices as part of the display promoting the new color palette.

A while back someone was selling  more than a dozen  F# sets on Ebay. They were all from a telephone office display. They were princess phones and trimlines.
They all had F#'s. Some were gutless display sets and some had guts.
I didn't log the #'s.

My guess is that F#'s may of been used on telephone display sets. This is just a guess. I know of several F# clear early trimlines. Most of the clear WE sets seem to be  used as telephone company displays.
 The later clear telephone display trimlines, were the same as production, they just had transparent housings.

Just something to keep in mind.

Jim

The soft plastic 1958 500 sets came with light gray coiled cords and a bell dial center. I think there are at least 5-6 in the hands of collectors.
BTW Paul, I am still processing you points to ponder.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 07, 2010, 10:42:05 PM
I agree, Jim.  F- numbers were used for several things in addition to field trials.  Display sets are one and the internals for customer-supplied housings (F-56659 and F-56660 - which later became the 581 - http://www.paul-f.com/we581.html) come to mind.  There are probably more.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 07, 2010, 11:13:53 PM
I agree, Jim.  F- numbers were used for several things in addition to field trials.  Display sets are one and the internals for customer-supplied housings (F-56659 and F-56660 - which later became the 581 - http://www.paul-f.com/we581.html) come to mind.  There are probably more.

A "small batch" run still applies to these examples.
Just a thought,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 07, 2010, 11:15:22 PM
Can anyone direct me to documentation or more examples of the D# system. I have my thoughts on it and want to research further.
D/P

<snip>
My guess on the numbering is that the D- numbers are unique to the macro design of the component.  In past club discussions the D was speculated to stand for "Design" and related to a Bell System design specification.  The D- number on the bottom of a set typically related to the overall spec for the complete set, while the D- number on a component (e.g. ringer) related to the spec for that part.  If there was a major change to the design, the next one made to the new spec would get a new D- number.

If the Bell System assigned numbers like engineering firms I worked for several decades later, there was a clerk who maintained the master number assignment list. When an engineer needed a code for a new part, a quick call to the clerk got the next available number on the list. 



I probably have some other examples somewhere in my notes.

This is my thoughts.
The first red highlight, I think the D#177001( on the bottom of my set ), only refers to the chassis, and all attached brackets, and subhousings without insides mounted (Network housing EQ housing dial bracket fastened permanently to the chassis. I think the practice of replacing networks etc, came as an afterthought, and was not an original intention. D#177001, I do not believe was the entire completed phone.
Reason is that other modules that screw or bolt to the chassis (Ringer, Dial etc.) have their own D#. If the previous was the case why assign the ringer a D# ? Is the ringer part of the entire phone or is the chassis part of the ringer, they both have D#'s, see what I'm saying too confusing.

In addition the D#'s in my phone are in sequence from D#177001- D#177018. There are 5 D#'s on the chassis alone, and still another 8 or 10 components not yet found to see what their numbers were, but my bet is that the cords, handset, caps, transmitter element, receiver element, had D#"s that would fill in the missing gaps from D#17701-D#177018. If the previous explanation ( Blue Highlighted )was correct, that would mean that all components in my phone were designed and perfected at exactly the same time, as no new D# were issued for subsequent improvements, all modules are clustered in one small group of D#'s.

I think D#'s are assigned to modules or components, and the 125, 35, 209, are numbers given as 125 of 300.
Example the EQ is D#177018, 35. My thinking EQ is Master part number D#177018, component number 35 of ???.
I would totally agree except that the D#'s are too closely clustered to fit into the previous explanation.

D/P


Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 08, 2010, 08:46:21 AM
well, i found two 4 prong plugs in my "stash". much to my surprise i see that one is marked "japan"...the other "taiwan"    :o

 i have 3 302s at my other house....not sure what if any plugs are on them. will check the next time i am there. if it turns out i have one that you think would be appropriate for your 500, you can have it.

here's a pic of the the "japan"
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 08, 2010, 12:29:11 PM

This is my thoughts.
The first red highlight, I think the D#177001( on the bottom of my set ), only refers to the chassis, and all attached brackets, and subhousings without insides mounted (Network housing EQ housing dial bracket fastened permanently to the chassis. I think the practice of replacing networks etc, came as an afterthought, and was not an original intention. D#177001, I do not believe was the entire completed phone.
Reason is that other modules that screw or bolt to the chassis (Ringer, Dial etc.) have their own D#. If the previous was the case why assign the ringer a D# ? Is the ringer part of the entire phone or is the chassis part of the ringer, they both have D#'s, see what I'm saying too confusing.

In addition the D#'s in my phone are in sequence from D#177001- D#177018. There are 5 D#'s on the chassis alone, and still another 8 or 10 components not yet found to see what their numbers were, but my bet is that the cords, handset, caps, transmitter element, receiver element, had D#"s that would fill in the missing gaps from D#17701-D#177018. If the previous explanation ( Blue Highlighted )was correct, that would mean that all components in my phone were designed and perfected at exactly the same time, as no new D# were issued for subsequent improvements, all modules are clustered in one small group of D#'s.

I think D#'s are assigned to modules or components, and the 125, 35, 209, are numbers given as 125 of 300.
Example the EQ is D#177018, 35. My thinking EQ is Master part number D#177018, component number 35 of ???.
I would totally agree except that the D#'s are too closely clustered to fit into the previous explanation.

D/P


Another factor to consider from other D- and F- sets I've seen is that if a circuit diagram is included with the phone it is generally marked with the same number that's stamped on the bottom of the phone - even if there are other D- or F- marked components inside.

It makes logical sense that the number on the bottom could be the component identifier for the base plate and that it's also used as a general reference to the complete set because it's the most visible number when the phone is assembled.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on April 08, 2010, 01:02:43 PM
I have a spare White bell system logo like the one you showed earlier you can have if you would like I will have to find it though. I would be happy to have a little part of me living in that phone ;D ;)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 08, 2010, 01:10:34 PM
Paul;
My only question is what method would they use to differentiate between the D#'s, so that by looking at a list, they would know which D# designated what parts.
I picture someone looking at a list,, on the list is....

D#177001, Model 500 Telephone Set
D#177001, Model 500 telephone base.
D#177009, Model 500 Telephone Ringer.
D#177018, Model 500 Equalizer unit.
See where I get confused, which is it, the base or the complete phone. I've worked around General Motors parts numbering System, and they didn't do duplicate numbers for different components, at GM, the leading character designated a department, or a project title, followed by it's Blueprintl or I.D. Number, we never had a duplicate number. For example, "P" designated Plastic injection molding account, followed by "112498003", where the "112498003", designated the Plastics Injection Molding Account drawing number.
If you needed a print, from the Plastics Department, you would go to the cabinet marked "P", thumb through the pile of prints in numeric order until you came to #112498003, there you would find the Drawing of the part you wanted to look at, in the event the part was updated, it was issued a NEW "P" Number.  Even then the new print would refer to the old drawing number, for reference if needed. As you can see a very uncomplicated system.
As far as the 2 or 3 digit number, this would only designate a limited parts run, for test purposes, to track where individual parts we located for test purposes. Once the design was perfected the 2, or 3 digit number was not needed anymore, and was dropped, and the print number then went on the part.
Somewhere would be a master list, that would go something like this.

                            Model 500 Field Test Sets

D#177001, Model 500 Telephone Set Chassis, serial number 125.
D#177006, Model 500 Telephone Set Dial Assembly, Serial number135
D#177009, Model 500 Telephone Set Ringer Assembly, Serial Number 124
D#177018, Model 500 Telephone Set Equalizer, Serial Number 35


And so on. This would tell the engineering department exactly where every test part was utilized, accounting would have their information in one neat package.


D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 08, 2010, 01:27:04 PM
Paul;
It does make logical sense that the D#177001, would be used to I.D. The completed set, but I also think that the 125 3 digit number would have to be included to designate a specific telephone set rather than one of many. I think all of the sets made for the Field Tests were numbered on the bottom D#177001, the only way to tell them apart was by the 3 digit number 125, which made that set unique,  just the D#177001, would just say it was 1 of ?.
Also when they distributed the sets, How would they know which set was distributed to where ?  If it failed how would they know where it was so they could maybe figure out if an environmental factor was cause for the failure.
My thinking is this, Hypothetically speaking.

Set Number D#177001-125, went to Phoenix Arizona, and it failed because the dial gear melted from excess heat.

Set Number D#177001-126, Went to Brooklyn New York, and performed flawlessly.

They may be able to assume, or at least start looking at the Extreme heat in Arizona, as a factor in it's failure, without the 125 tracking number, they wouldn't have a clue where that set went. At least not without extra excessive paperwork. Even then, they would have to add some form of I.D. to that phone so they would know which set was which, ( why do that extra, when they already have a 3 digit serial number in place )?  Even then, once back at the Labs, what happened if someone moved the sets around, and mixed them up, then how would they know where each set was deployed. Simple, By it's 3 digit serial number.

Duplicate 3 digit numbers inside of a particular set was strictly coincidence, and would be no factor.
I don't think we will ever know for certain, until another set like mine shows itself.

HERE IS A PLEA, EVERYONE THAT HAS EVEN ONE OLD 500 SET, IN  A BOX SOMEWHERE, DIG IT OUT AND LOOK AT THE BOTTOM FOR A D#.

D/P

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 08, 2010, 03:19:31 PM
D/P:
We're in violent agreement regarding the short numbers...

Quote
<snip>
I believe the shorter numbers are simply serial numbers for components made to the marked specification.  As has been pointed out, we don't know the starting number -- whether 1, 10, 100, etc.  Each part would have a unique number, so its origin and history could be tracked during assembly, testing and use.

Therefore your ringer is uniquely identified for tracking purposes using the two codes, D-177006 and 124.
<snip>

This is also consistent with some other F- and D- coded sets I've seen.  Many (not all) have had shorter numbers in addition for unique set identification.

For example, http://www.paul-f.com/webr.html  is set 619.

Regarding the D- numbers, I agree with you that it is potentially confusing to have the same D- number refer to a component and a set.

The choices are either component, whole set only or both.  If, for the sake of discussion, we agree it's not both, we're left with a binary choice.

Since the number on the bottom of the set has been clearly used to refer to the whole set in some cases (other sets), it is possible that the D- number only refers to the whole set and not the component.  Perhaps they saw no need to issue a D- number for the base plate.

Of course it's all speculation until we find more sets.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bellsystemproperty on April 08, 2010, 03:30:27 PM
well, i found two 4 prong plugs in my "stash". much to my surprise i see that one is marked "japan"...the other "taiwan"    :o

 i have 3 302s at my other house....not sure what if any plugs are on them. will check the next time i am there. if it turns out i have one that you think would be appropriate for your 500, you can have it.

here's a pic of the the "japan"

All of my sets have four prong plugs that also are marked "Taiwan", maybe the Bell System did have some of their parts outsourced.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: LarryInMichigan on April 08, 2010, 03:55:08 PM
Quote
All of my sets have four prong plugs that also are marked "Taiwan", maybe the Bell System did have some of their parts outsourced.

I doubt that AT&T used any asian phone plugs or jacks.  When I was a kid, we used to buy phone jacks at Radio Shack or Olson Electronics (remember them?), and I installed them all over the house (my mother wanted a phone in every room).  When an Illinois Bell installer came to our house (around 1976), he noticed all of the "Japanese jacks" (as he called them) and told us that they were bad and forbidden by the phone company and that he was officially required to remove them.  He said that he would be nice though and only disconnect one line in the utility room and not notice all of the other connections.  I think he gave me a few WE jacks which were the only ones approved by the mighty phone company (though my installing them was certainly not approved).

Larry
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 08, 2010, 04:20:53 PM
larry.....most certainly bell did not use asian made jacks/plugs. i was surprised that there would be any after market product of this type at all. since prior de-regulation only the phone company was supposed to work on phones & lines. by the time the govm't broke up the telco's phones were modular.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 08, 2010, 04:58:39 PM
Paul;
I'm sure glad we can at least agree violently on that.
As far as the base plate not requiring a D#, I can see where it might, as the base plate I have is not what ended up in production. Do you happen to have any numbers as they relate to the actual 500 sets that finally made it into production ?
I'm still convinced that the D#'s have something to do with a paper trail that leads back to a drawing.
Didn't Bell Labs keep track of Blueprints ????
This may be a coincidence, but looking at the Patent application form, I noticed a weird thing.
Notice the Number at the bottom, CL177--7, my ringer is 177--6, just one number earlier. What are those numbers for ?

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 08, 2010, 06:36:54 PM
I am not 100% sure, but I think it is a USPO number for a classification template. Depending on what you patent, the patent examiner will use a guideline to determine if someone else has patented something similar when you fill an application. Since so many things have been patented, this will narrow the search field.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 08, 2010, 06:56:19 PM

The patent numbers to search for are:
  G Handset: 151,614
  Base: 153,928
  Line Switch: 2,566,840
  Ringer: 2,590,500

Has anyone tracked down patent info for the handset element?

Paul

Paul,
Try http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4425482.html


There are several patents related to the "ring armature receiver"
And improvements to it.

The first  patent is 2506609
The patent trail is:
2520646 Electroacoustic transducer August, 1950 Mott 179/115R
2520640 Electroacoustic transducer August, 1950 Kreisel 179/114R
2506624 Electroacoustic transducer May, 1950 Wirsching 179/120
2506609 Ring armature telephone receiver May, 1950 Mott 179/120
2249160 Acoustic device July, 1941 Mott 179/120
2170571 Acoustic device August, 1939 Mott 179/119R


Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 08, 2010, 07:43:13 PM
Can drawings be traced by using patent numbers. I think it's not free though is it ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 08, 2010, 07:48:53 PM
Can drawings be traced by using patent numbers. I think it's not free though is it ?
D/P
I signed up for the free account and just pulled up the housing design D153928
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 08, 2010, 07:53:21 PM
I want to sincerely thank everyone for helping on this most exciting project.
I plan to make a formal list and credits for all involved, and place it inside of the phone.
Today I went to the Post Office, and picked up a package from Mr. Jim Stettler, you know him better as Jim Stettler. He offered to send me a shell, and handset for the phone. He said that he would leave the clean up to me.
 Well I opened the box, fully expecting to see an average shell and handset 60 years grime and grit, and would have to spend the afternoon cleaning and polishing them.
I really should have known better.
After a light dusting and removing a label, I tried the shell on the frame, and set the handset on it's cradle, as of yet I don't have the proper handset cord, but in time that to will come. Well to make a long story short, here is a photo with a makeshift handset cord.
I can not thank Jim enough, this was a real sacrifice on his part. Thanks My Friend...
I was going to move to Colorado Springs 2 years ago, I'm thinking heavy about it again.
Here is a photo as promised....
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on April 08, 2010, 08:03:52 PM
Cripes!

Looks like a phone again!

Thanks Jim Stettler, amazing.

PS does that make a half Jim half D/P Frankenphone?

Only joking looks superb, so no need for the dremel then?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 08, 2010, 08:12:49 PM
No GPO everything fits like it should. When taking the shell off however, you have to maneuver if around a bit to clear the horizontal Line switch arms. I think this is why the design was changed.
I've seen many nice 500's but this is the best yet.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 08, 2010, 08:15:18 PM
Gheez !!! I forgot to mention that these parts Jim sent are genuine 1950 Soft shell, and the proper hooked handset, with Cup, Transmitter amd receiver elements, also dated 1950.
Worth a small fortune themselves.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on April 08, 2010, 08:23:00 PM
Dan/P what is the exact dates on the items? I wanted to see how well they matched up!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 08, 2010, 08:33:18 PM
Dan/P what is the exact dates on the items? I wanted to see how well they matched up!

The shell is 12-14-50
The handset is 9-50
The Transmitter element is 9-50
The Receiver element is 10-3-50
All very close. I might add all are near mint condition.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 08, 2010, 08:35:35 PM
Dan,
 When I originally got it, the price sticker was compleate. As you saw, I pulled it halfway off (that was a couple of years ago).
I probably "quick" dusted the phone  2-3 times while I had it.


If I had won this phone, It would still look like the auction photo!

Glad you like the handset and housing , This has been a fun thread.

Jim Stettler.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 08, 2010, 08:36:13 PM
Dan/P what is the exact dates on the items? I wanted to see how well they matched up!

The shell is 12-14-50
The handset is 9-50
The Transmitter element is 9-50
The Receiver element is 10-3-50
All very close. I might add all are near mint condition.
D/P

The caps are '55 tho.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 08, 2010, 08:43:06 PM
D/P,
Now that the phone is basically a compleate set, I am wondering how much does it weigh?
Most of the Parts appear to be on the "heavier-than-normal" side.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on April 08, 2010, 08:44:35 PM
A while back someone was selling  more than a dozen  F# sets on Ebay. They were all from a telephone office display. They were princess phones and trimlines.
They all had F#'s. Some were gutless display sets and some had guts.
I didn't log the #'s.

The number F55835 appears on the bottom of one of those eBay sets, it's an aqua 2500 and dated 6-70.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 08, 2010, 09:08:28 PM
D/P, I have a 283B 4-prong plug if you think that's what your phone should have.  However, while the prong base is black, the outer cover is beige.  The cover could probably be painted brown if that's what it's supposed to look like.  I don't think these are all that hard to come by, but I'll send you mine if you want it. 

Awesome news on the 1950-dated parts from Jim S.  They have found their way to the right base!

Ralph
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on April 08, 2010, 09:12:52 PM
No GPO everything fits like it should. When taking the shell off however, you have to maneuver if around a bit to clear the horizontal Line switch arms. I think this is why the design was changed.
I've seen many nice 500's but this is the best yet.
D/P

Yes Dan,

I was referring to my post about "dremmling" a disposable 500 shell for the cutaway type display.

Again, your discovery is coming along nicely, and its incredibly admirable you want to commemirate the folks involved.

It's amazing how helpful people are on this forum, rather than sliding into personal bickering, like a few forums I've been on.

I lok forward to the next installment.

Best,

Scot





Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 08, 2010, 09:45:36 PM
No GPO everything fits like it should. When taking the shell off however, you have to maneuver if around a bit to clear the horizontal Line switch arms. I think this is why the design was changed.
I've seen many nice 500's but this is the best yet.
D/P

Yes Dan,

I was referring to my post about "dremmling" a disposable 500 shell for the cutaway type display.

Again, your discovery is coming along nicely, and its incredibly admirable you want to commemirate the folks involved.

It's amazing how helpful people are on this forum, rather than sliding into personal bickering, like a few forums I've been on.

I lok forward to the next installment.

Best,

Scot






Scot,
I am thinking that might be a good use for this soft '54 housing.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 08, 2010, 09:51:43 PM
Cut out both sides, and the back, and glue in clear poly sheet.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 08, 2010, 10:06:45 PM
Cut out both sides, and the back, and glue in clear poly sheet.
D/P

I was just thinking cut out both sides, However, you have the talent to fit in the
poly sheet and make it look right.
It is 9-7-54. I have kept it around because even a damaged part has is uses as an experimental piece.

A lot of times I take things like this to shows for my "free" pile. I envisioned this  housing as a to practice piece for someone attempting chip  repair.
I think clear side panels would be a good compromise between the black/clear crowd. It would be an eyecatching way to display the set at a show.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 08, 2010, 11:07:02 PM
So D/P,
Are you up for it? It's your's for shipping if you want to give it a go.
Let me know,
Jim S.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 08, 2010, 11:20:41 PM
Jim;
You've given more than enough on the project. I can't ask you to donate another shell.
You have my address, let me know how much shipping is...... :o
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 08, 2010, 11:27:47 PM
Sucker............
I expect to see some of your best work now.
You did great on the restore.
Now lets see what you can create............ ;D
Best wishes,
Jim
PS I will wait a week or so before sending this. I am still looking for that other item I think I have. Don't hold your breathe tho.
Plus that gives you some planning time.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on April 09, 2010, 12:12:38 AM
Hehehe Jim lays down the gauntlet, actualy a half and half dremelled case seems rather daunting, but seeing how you handled the fingerwheel would be well capable with your skills D/P.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 09, 2010, 12:14:18 AM
Hehehe Jim lays down the gauntlet, actualy a half and half dremelled case seems rather daunting, but seeing how you handled the fingerwheel would be well capable with your skills D/P.
That's my thought,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jester on April 09, 2010, 12:27:20 AM
I'm thinking an old fashioned coping saw will give you better control through this material.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 09, 2010, 12:29:23 AM
The wheels are staring to spin. Can you imagine if the areas were cut from the shell, and Ray kotke could put the cut down shell, in his mold and fill in the blank area with his resin. Now that would look superb.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 09, 2010, 12:39:05 AM
I'm thinking an old fashioned coping saw will give you better control through this material.
I was thinking a fine tooth jewelers saw. That is my first guess, D/P has 1-2 week to evaluate thoughts. Once he has it in his possesion it is up to him on   how and when to proceed. No pressure here. :o
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 09, 2010, 12:53:13 AM
Wow, it's a phone again!!!

Many thanks to Jim S for donating that shell and handset, that's quite the find in themselves, a shell and handset from 1950.  Of course I'm keeping my eyes peeled for that 48' shell, it's got to be in a pile of discards someplace eh? :)

This has really been a great thread, we've all gotten to share in a history making moment, the finding of what is perhaps the only surviving 1948 field trial Western Electric model 500.  Many of us have at least one 500 laying about, and it's arguably the most important telephone of the second half of the 20th century.  (with contenders in the GPO 706 series and the AE 80, to name just a couple)  

We will never see the like again, a phone that was years in the development, a no expensive spared project that set new standards for ease of use, ergonomics, and reliable service.  A phone that is still in production today by Cortelco, albeit without a dial and only in red.  The G series handset of the 500 is the ubiquitous symbol of telephony that we encounter daily, it's on signs for payphones, on many of our cell phones as the "send" symbol, and still in mass production by a myriad of companies making WE 2500 and 2554 clones.  The ringer sound of the 500 is legendary as well.  I've read that at least 150 million were made and some sources claim as many as 200 million by all makers.

And D/P has the oldest one!  

That is an extraordinary thing to be able to claim, I have a couple of dozen 500s, and we see them all the time at thrift stores and the like, most are nothing all that special.  We justifiably get excited about the rare ones, the Med blue with it's original gray cords, or the yellow soft plastic, or a 1950 with the word operator curved under the 0.  But then to have the grandfather of them all, the rarest of the rare, by comparison the Med blue and yellow soft plastic are common as pebbles in a creek.  

Hats off to Dan for finding this phone and restoring it, by doing this you've done a real historical service for not only all phone collectors, but all students of 20th century American industrial and technological history.  And kudos to everyone who contributed new parts for this exotically rare phone!

I hope to see this phone in person someday at a show, I would drive just to get to see it in person.  

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 09, 2010, 12:55:05 AM
The wheels are staring to spin. Can you imagine if the areas were cut from the shell, and Ray kotke could put the cut down shell, in his mold and fill in the blank area with his resin. Now that would look superb.
D/P
First you need to get Ray K. to do a 500 mold.
 If you want to try that route, I can try leaning on Ray. I should be able to get him to  to listen to my argument.
I could play up the "historic glory" angle. It is worth a shot, if you want to try.

He will probably be at  Lyon's.
Regarding Lyon's, NE

I am planning on attending, I will have a clear display, but most likely won't be at it. ask my neighbors. They should be able to point me out. I will probably be wearing a "I Buy telephones" hat.
If any forum members attend , stop by and say hi. (I mean this sincerly)
Jim S.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 09, 2010, 01:01:32 AM
Jester;
Yes, and then with a dremel drum sander, to finish it smooth.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jester on April 09, 2010, 01:08:07 AM
D/P,
That'll work!!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on April 09, 2010, 01:10:53 AM
Dan, I could use my fine dental drill on that shell and cut it perfectly. You could mark it with a grey sharpie where you want the cuts to go. I could leave the polishing to you (post cutting). If you are near the Springfield Ohio  show on May 15 we could meet up there and save on shipping. Let me know
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 09, 2010, 01:16:58 AM
McHeath;
Very well said. I sit here and just stare at the phone.  I realize how significant this phone is, and how much I feel it an honor to have it. I have to start to figuring out how I can get this out so others can see it.

Dan;
That would make things easier.
 
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 09, 2010, 01:42:36 AM
Wow, it's a phone again!!!

Many thanks to Jim S for donating that shell and handset, that's quite the find in themselves, a shell and handset from 1950.  Of course I'm keeping my eyes peeled for that 48' shell, it's got to be in a pile of discards someplace eh? :)

This has really been a great thread, we've all gotten to share in a history making moment, the finding of what is perhaps the only surviving 1948 field trial Western Electric model 500.  Many of us have at least one 500 laying about, and it's arguably the most important telephone of the second half of the 20th century.  (with contenders in the GPO 706 series and the AE 80, to name just a couple)  

We will never see the like again, a phone that was years in the development, a no expensive spared project that set new standards for ease of use, ergonomics, and reliable service.  A phone that is still in production today by Cortelco, albeit without a dial and only in red.  The G series handset of the 500 is the ubiquitous symbol of telephony that we encounter daily, it's on signs for payphones, on many of our cell phones as the "send" symbol, and still in mass production by a myriad of companies making WE 2500 and 2554 clones.  The ringer sound of the 500 is legendary as well.  I've read that at least 150 million were made and some sources claim as many as 200 million by all makers.

And D/P has the oldest one!  

That is an extraordinary thing to be able to claim, I have a couple of dozen 500s, and we see them all the time at thrift stores and the like, most are nothing all that special.  We justifiably get excited about the rare ones, the Med blue with it's original gray cords, or the yellow soft plastic, or a 1950 with the word operator curved under the 0.  But then to have the grandfather of them all, the rarest of the rare, by comparison the Med blue and yellow soft plastic are common as pebbles in a creek.  

Hats off to Dan for finding this phone and restoring it, by doing this you've done a real historical service for not only all phone collectors, but all students of 20th century American industrial and technological history.  And kudos to everyone who contributed new parts for this exotically rare phone!

I hope to see this phone in person someday at a show, I would drive just to get to see it in person.  


Thanks Mcheath, I was just a parts supplier. Jim
Anymore tho, I question  if it is a '48 pre-production set,
 obviously it appears  too early and undated to be a '49. but isn't a '48 an assumption?
 I wonder if the '48 pre-production are  a missing link ( more on this thought later). The components of this set seem too early to be the parts that turned into the early production sets. I am open to it being pre-pre production. I have given this a lot of thought before I publicly stated it. I am comfortable with the notion it is pre'49 field trial, But it seems too early to really be an "official" '48 pre-production field trial set.
JMO I will try to justify it in later postings.

Regarding the G handset and ring armature receiver. It seems to be a very popular design. Probably the most copied handset ever. I ran into many "to-new" leads when I was trying to research the "ring armature handset receiver" not to notice the popularity of the basic design.

I am still pondering some of Paul's points. I have several pages of musings to date. They are leading to my pre-pre-production  thoughts. Currently these are wild speculation. I hope to have valid  arguments soon. I only mention it to open some minds to the concept.

I beleive that Dan's set is the oldest known 500 set. And that is a really cool concept.
Just my thoughts and opinions, more later,
Jim
BTW McHeath you stated some really good points.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on April 09, 2010, 05:17:51 AM
When you say about there being 200 million of those bad boys made and D/P has the oldest, it makes me proud just to know D/P.  And Jim, it was very kind of you to send a 500 shell and handset that is older than any 500 in my collection.  Kudos on your kindness.

Wow, it's a phone again!!!

Many thanks to Jim S for donating that shell and handset, that's quite the find in themselves, a shell and handset from 1950.  Of course I'm keeping my eyes peeled for that 48' shell, it's got to be in a pile of discards someplace eh? :)

This has really been a great thread, we've all gotten to share in a history making moment, the finding of what is perhaps the only surviving 1948 field trial Western Electric model 500.  Many of us have at least one 500 laying about, and it's arguably the most important telephone of the second half of the 20th century.  (with contenders in the GPO 706 series and the AE 80, to name just a couple)  

We will never see the like again, a phone that was years in the development, a no expensive spared project that set new standards for ease of use, ergonomics, and reliable service.  A phone that is still in production today by Cortelco, albeit without a dial and only in red.  The G series handset of the 500 is the ubiquitous symbol of telephony that we encounter daily, it's on signs for payphones, on many of our cell phones as the "send" symbol, and still in mass production by a myriad of companies making WE 2500 and 2554 clones.  The ringer sound of the 500 is legendary as well.  I've read that at least 150 million were made and some sources claim as many as 200 million by all makers.

And D/P has the oldest one!  

That is an extraordinary thing to be able to claim, I have a couple of dozen 500s, and we see them all the time at thrift stores and the like, most are nothing all that special.  We justifiably get excited about the rare ones, the Med blue with it's original gray cords, or the yellow soft plastic, or a 1950 with the word operator curved under the 0.  But then to have the grandfather of them all, the rarest of the rare, by comparison the Med blue and yellow soft plastic are common as pebbles in a creek.  

Hats off to Dan for finding this phone and restoring it, by doing this you've done a real historical service for not only all phone collectors, but all students of 20th century American industrial and technological history.  And kudos to everyone who contributed new parts for this exotically rare phone!

I hope to see this phone in person someday at a show, I would drive just to get to see it in person.  


Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on April 09, 2010, 07:59:59 AM
Nice new picture Tom, a fedora is always a plus!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on April 09, 2010, 09:50:29 AM
Just an observation from a newcomer.

Anybody with deep enough pockets can "possess" just about anything they like.   Possession's relatively easy. 

Taking responsibility for something as significant as this field-test phone is a whole different thing.   I'd call it "custody" because of the responsibility that goes with it.

D/P and everyone in this excellent group of people who's contributed to the project have assumed custody for the preservation of a significant piece of communications history, and it's an impressive effort all around.   My hat is off to all of you.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 09, 2010, 01:09:06 PM
Jim;
I'm waiting here holding my breath.
Two pieces of compelling evidence points me towards 48 Pre-Production Field Trial Set.
1) The write up in BST, 4/51
The drawings are exactly like my phone components.
Mine has the aluminum dial mount.
The bell coil is wrapped in green.
Mine has the aiming dots.
Plus the photo with the article.

2)In my mind the most compelling piece of evidence is the bottom markings (photo below)
Why would that instruction be placed on the bottom of a prototype that wasn't going anyplace ?

B.O.P.;
We don't take that responsibility lightly either.

Dan;
I think Tom is like that guy in Twilight Zone, everyone else gets older and he stays young, Tom is really 250 years old.

Tom;
It amazes me also the way everyone rallied around this find. I'm very thankful they did. The project would have taken much, much longer without Dennis' help, Jim' help, and everyone that gave great advice.
I can't ever forget, Michael Bachefski, from Toms River, New Jersey, for selling me the phone in the first place.

D/P


Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 09, 2010, 01:57:19 PM
D/P, I was thinking the same thing (but Jim has done so much reading up on this that I didn't feel qualified to question him) regarding the verbiage on the bottom of the phone.  My feeling is the same as yours--they wouldn't have put that on there unless it was going to be deployed for testing outside of company facilities.  Maybe if Jim has a theory on that, he'll share it with us.

I truly think that with your discovery and securing of what may be the only pre-production 500 we will ever see, you have sparked a level of interest that we haven't experienced up until now, and we'll get to the bottom of the development timeline for this model and where you're phone fits in eventually. 

I was going to offer you my less-than perfect G1 that I'm guessing is from 12/1950 (vermillion is way faded) for this worthy cause, but you got a much nicer batch of components from Jim.

Count me among those who would like to see this phone in person at a show someday. 

Ralph
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 09, 2010, 02:09:37 PM
Also, and with 43 pages and counting it may have already been addressed here, but has the bezel been discussed?  From what I've read, I'm thinking that although the injection method was used for the characters, WECo still didn't have the means to use this method on a huge scale, so the early production sets got painted characters instead until WECo was able to tool up and mass-produce the injected bezels.  This adds yet another unique trait to this unusual phone.

I don't think there's any question that D/P's phone has a lot of "hand-made" (or nearly so) components that were produced in limited quantities.   I hope we learn more about it as the research continues.  Dan, I think you have triggered some re-writing of history regarding the 500!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on April 09, 2010, 02:18:07 PM
Thank you Dan, the fedora's a true original Stetson.  I'm guessing from the 40s or 50s.  I got this one and a Cavanaugh for 5 bucks a piece at Vinnie's. 

Also, D/P, it's funny you put things that way.  I get told all the time that I'm from the wrong decade or something else of the like. 

Nice new picture Tom, a fedora is always a plus!


Dan;
I think Tom is like that guy in Twilight Zone, everyone else gets older and he stays young, Tom is really 250 years old.

Tom;
It amazes me also the way everyone rallied around this find. I'm very thankful they did. The project would have taken much, much longer without Dennis' help, Jim' help, and everyone that gave great advice.
I can't ever forget, Michael Bachefski, from Toms River, New Jersey, for selling me the phone in the first place.

D/P



Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on April 09, 2010, 03:33:06 PM
Not that Dan/Panther would have any intention of letting go of this phone - but I would have to wonder what kind of money it could bring now?  

It was listed as a parts phone on eBay, it took a sharp eye to not only find it but recognize what it might be.  Now that it's identified and brought back to life, and with the reality that it's likely the only surviving field trial 500 -

Hard to put a value on this phone.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 09, 2010, 03:50:44 PM
Tom;
Do you know Doc Brown, by any chance ???

Ralph;
I'm in no way questioning Paul, or Jim. In my line of work, all my life I was trained to troubleshoot technical problems, on complicated expensive factory equipment. Why it broke, and the best way to fix it, and ac possible way to prevent further breakage of the same component.

In 35 years, I learned two very important things,

1) No matter how well you know a subject, if someone else offers a comment or opinion, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, LISTEN TO THEM. It is just possible a new set of eyes and a different brain may see something you didn't.

2) The simplest solution, or explanation of a problem, is USUALLY the correct one.

I would be disappointed in Paul and Jim if they refused to at least, entertain  alternate opinions, or points of view, and to discuss them, and offer reasons for their opinion. "That's just the way it is", won't cut it.
After all "None is blinder than the one that refuses to see....."

It never was and never will be my intention just to make someone angry because i don't agree with them, If I'm wrong show me, convince me, I'm not above saying to anyone any time, "I was wrong."

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 09, 2010, 04:01:38 PM
B.O.P.:
I couldn't even venture a guess.
It would of course, depend totally, on proving what it really is. Like I've mentioned in an earlier post, I have what we believe to be a rifle owned by William Cody, Buffalo Bill. Serial number is 7 on the rifle, and Records indicate that Cody purchased 5 of the first ten model 86's produced. My dad bought it form the husband of Codys Granddaughter. DUH!!!! If ownership could be proven, it may be worth thousands, as it is, My Dad a few years back was offered $600.00 by a collector.
Same applies to this phone.
I doubt this phone will ever be for sale, it belongs on  permanent display in a  museum.


D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on April 09, 2010, 04:06:12 PM

I doubt this phone will ever be for sale, it belongs on  permanent display in a  museum.


D/P

Definitely a legacy item.   I'm glad you're the custodian.   It's not every day that someone gets a chance to preserve a serious piece of history.

Wonder if any of the other field trial sets would have been recycled with production parts, bases repainted, and ended up living out their lives as just another phone?   
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 09, 2010, 04:17:18 PM
B.O.P.;
I did my best to make it look good. Many others out there could have done the same, and many could most likely have done even better.
I will say, I don't think many could have done it with more enthusiasm, or excitement.


I did some cleanup and scratch removal on the shell, then polished it, and the handset with Novus. Whatdayathink ????

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on April 09, 2010, 04:49:59 PM
WOW
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on April 09, 2010, 05:09:42 PM
When you finalize your display ideas, I hope you have a series of photos showing it as-found and through the restoration process.   This phone looks amazingly great now.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Doug Rose on April 09, 2010, 05:15:58 PM
Dan....outstanding!! A job well done and a great piece of history. You should be very proud....Doug
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on April 09, 2010, 07:32:02 PM
That looks gorgeous.

I was gonna object to dremmeling the body but its a scrapper anyway, with the big chunk out of the side.

I would take up the dentist drill suggestion if you want to have a half and half case.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 09, 2010, 09:15:45 PM
When you say about there being 200 million of those bad boys made and D/P has the oldest, it makes me proud just to know D/P.  And Jim, it was very kind of you to send a 500 shell and handset that is older than any 500 in my collection.  Kudos on your kindness.



Tom,
If the dial wasn't '56 and the network '57, Then D/P would still need a housing.
As it was the shell and Handset was waiting for a good phone to be put on to.
D/P's phone seemed like the best canidate.
I really have been enjoying this thread, so I didn't mind kicking in a "member" fee. :D

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 09, 2010, 09:32:30 PM


First of the verbage on the bottom.

Early  "test" sets were used in several types of locations. The most obviouse being "Bell Labs". Next off was high ranking executives (on occasion) Bell Lab Employees, Friends of engineer's who get on the "official Tryer" list. (I met one of these ladies). ect.


Now if any of these sets failed, Their was a need to get it back to the labs for examination. If you think about it, Within the offices of Bell labs there were probably lots of telephones in use. Thes ran the gamut from early testing, Various stages of field trials, pre-production, early production and regular production phones.

I think any phone that needed to get returned for evaluation after failure, would have some sort of verbage to indicate to return it.
The Bell system was quite "anal" when it came to how they did most things. In a building of engineers, I expect the need to mark phones that needed to get return to the "lab" would get marked. This is just my opinion, but it makes sense to me.

Second

Most of what I post is my opinion, Some speculation, and some strongly held opinion. DO NOT think I am a GURU.
I am not. Please question me if you disagree or are curious about what I base my opinions on.

Either your points will make me reconsider my opinion, or by explaining my opinions, I will get better insight on how likely they seem.
The best way to learn is to teach, It makes you organize your thoughts.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 09, 2010, 09:33:49 PM
B.O.P.;
I did my best to make it look good. Many others out there could have done the same, and many could most likely have done even better.
I will say, I don't think many could have done it with more enthusiasm, or excitement.


I did some cleanup and scratch removal on the shell, then polished it, and the handset with Novus. Whatdayathink ????

D/P

It sure shined up pretty.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 09, 2010, 09:41:59 PM
That looks gorgeous.

I was gonna object to dremmeling the body but its a scrapper anyway, with the big chunk out of the side.

I would take up the dentist drill suggestion if you want to have a half and half case.
I gave the half and half case some thought.
My best solution is to get a modern generic clear 2500 and see if it can be Merged with the broken black case.

That way you have a nicely formed clear housing (with ribs) and the black top.

Not all generic clear 2500 sets are created equal. Some are foggier than others. I have seen some really clear sets, and some that are more translucent. The various clear 2500 plastic can vary, which might make different techniques needed depending on the plastic type.

The clear generic 2500 sets are notched. I would leave the notch and use a Genuine We mousehole filler.


Just a thought,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 09, 2010, 10:25:29 PM
Jim;
As far as the markings on the bottom, I will concede that yes, that factor alone could make it outside of the 1 in 50, however how do you reconcile the other factors that point to a 1 in 50 Field test set. The Ringer, aluminum dial mount, green wrapped coils parts that match drawing, and even the photo that was dated 1949, that speaks of trial sets, and the photo shows the Z dial. Do we disallow those factors or consider them. Like I said, if you consider ALL factors, one points to it could be outside of the 50, but 5 factors point to it being within the 1 of 50. My view like I mentioned before is the simplest explanation is MOST LIKELY the correct one. It would be easy to accept that the phone was outside of the 1 of 50, but  it's very hard to ignore the other factors that point to it being within the 1 of 50..

Secondly, If in fact this set was issued to say a Bell employee, how would they keep track of the set ? What would they use to identify this particular set to a particular person ?
My thought, Joe Blow, signed for, and Received set D#177001-125.
Signifying that Joe Blow received 1-D#177001- model 500 telephone set, number 125.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 09, 2010, 11:40:44 PM
Tom;
Do you know Doc Brown, by any chance ???

Ralph;
I'm in no way questioning Paul, or Jim. In my line of work, all my life I was trained to troubleshoot technical problems, on complicated expensive factory equipment. Why it broke, and the best way to fix it, and ac possible way to prevent further breakage of the same component.

In 35 years, I learned two very important things,

1) No matter how well you know a subject, if someone else offers a comment or opinion, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, LISTEN TO THEM. It is just possible a new set of eyes and a different brain may see something you didn't.

2) The simplest solution, or explanation of a problem, is USUALLY the correct one.

I would be disappointed in Paul and Jim if they refused to at least, entertain  alternate opinions, or points of view, and to discuss them, and offer reasons for their opinion. "That's just the way it is", won't cut it.
After all "None is blinder than the one that refuses to see....."

It never was and never will be my intention just to make someone angry because i don't agree with them, If I'm wrong show me, convince me, I'm not above saying to anyone any time, "I was wrong."

D/P

"Because I said So"
was never a valid reason for me either.
Jim S.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 09, 2010, 11:43:03 PM
Jim;
I'm waiting here holding my breath.
Two pieces of compelling evidence points me towards 48 Pre-Production Field Trial Set.
1) The write up in BST, 4/51
The drawings are exactly like my phone components.
Mine has the aluminum dial mount.
The bell coil is wrapped in green.
Mine has the aiming dots.
Plus the photo with the article.

2)In my mind the most compelling piece of evidence is the bottom markings (photo below)
Why would that instruction be placed on the bottom of a prototype that wasn't going anyplace ?

B.O.P.;
We don't take that responsibility lightly either.

Dan;
I think Tom is like that guy in Twilight Zone, everyone else gets older and he stays young, Tom is really 250 years old.

Tom;
It amazes me also the way everyone rallied around this find. I'm very thankful they did. The project would have taken much, much longer without Dennis' help, Jim' help, and everyone that gave great advice.
I can't ever forget, Michael Bachefski, from Toms River, New Jersey, for selling me the phone in the first place.

D/P




A lot of retired Bell engineers live in Toms River NJ. I have this on good authority.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 10, 2010, 12:07:07 AM
Jim;
As far as the markings on the bottom, I will concede that yes, that factor alone could make it outside of the 1 in 50, however how do you reconcile the other factors that point to a 1 in 50 Field test set. The Ringer, aluminum dial mount, green wrapped coils parts that match drawing, and even the photo that was dated 1949, that speaks of trial sets, and the photo shows the Z dial. Do we disallow those factors or consider them. Like I said, if you consider ALL factors, one points to it could be outside of the 50, but 5 factors point to it being within the 1 of 50. My view like I mentioned before is the simplest explanation is MOST LIKELY the correct one. It would be easy to accept that the phone was outside of the 1 of 50, but  it's very hard to ignore the other factors that point to it being within the 1 of 50..

Secondly, If in fact this set was issued to say a Bell employee, how would they keep track of the set ? What would they use to identify this particular set to a particular person ?
My thought, Joe Blow, signed for, and Received set D#177001-125.
Signifying that Joe Blow received 1-D#177001- model 500 telephone set, number 125.

D/P
Read my upcoming post. I am reviewing the postings that occured while I have been typing.  They only exterior feature  that your "as-found" set has with the photo is the dial.
The dial design could of been decided on quite early. Have we found a design # for the dial yet?

All your points seem to be that it is earlier than early-production sets.  I agree that your set is a pre-production set, I wonder if it is earlier.

My question is : Is it earlier than the Pre-production field trial sets? My  upcoming post explores that question.
I also address question 2.

I think the aiming dots were added on dial tests, not necessarily on the field trial tests (I haven't read Paul's reference on the dots tho, It might have some more details).

Regarding Joe Blow: He tried out set D177001-125. But he dropped it. I guess we should go with a metal fingerwheel :D

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 10, 2010, 01:16:50 AM
That Joe guy always was clumsy.
D/p
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 10, 2010, 01:18:09 AM
That Joe guy always was clumsy.
D/p
That is why they let him take one home. If he couldn't break it , no one could.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 10, 2010, 02:14:50 AM
My long, opinion of D/p's phoner, seems to of gotten lost, before posting. I will try to recreate the key points for a posting tommorrow. I spent several hours tweaking the original post. I really liked it. i am bummed it is lost. Such is life,
Jim

BTW it was the upcomining post that I mentioned several times earlier.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 10, 2010, 02:17:15 AM
My long, opinion of D/p's phoner, seems to of gotten lost, before posting. I will try to recreate the key points for a posting tommorrow. I spent several hours tweaking the original post. I really liked it. i am bummed it is lost. Such is life,
Jim

BTW it was the upcomining post that I mentioned several times earlier.

I hate it when that happens.  It has happened to me several times
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 10, 2010, 02:42:01 AM
My long, opinion of D/p's phoner, seems to of gotten lost, before posting. I will try to recreate the key points for a posting tommorrow. I spent several hours tweaking the original post. I really liked it. i am bummed it is lost. Such is life,
Jim

BTW it was the upcomining post that I mentioned several times earlier.

I hate it when that happens.  It has happened to me several times
This is my second time. This posting was well thought out and worth keeping for reference. ( did I mention i took hours to create it)

So was the other posting. It was regarding trimlines. There wasn't near as much interest in the trimline post. But both postings were well done and worth saving in my notes. Both posst were the result of several hours of tweaking and referance
I can get over not getting them posted, I just hate losing my copy of "quality" notes. I spent a lot of time making my justifications. I felt I made  very good points I was going to incorporate them in my Reply to "Paul's points to Ponder"It is multiple pages of my ponderings and musings, It is a great place to debate early 500 design.
Now they are gone, any reconstruction loses "the passion" that was there.
O'well, S**T happens.
Jim
I will still argue Dan's set appears pre-48 field trial to me{ It is the grandaddy of 500's, Dan felt that pre feild trial didn't count, sometimes it doesn't, But his set is definently a very early 500, we need to figurew out the timeline tho, I would sasy 48' field or probably before) This is only my opinionj. I will build my case later.
In the meantime. Post your thoughts , questions and arguments for my current statements. That will help me build ny passion again.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on April 10, 2010, 06:23:28 AM
Funny, even in my uniform at work, I still give of a 'from the past' sort of vibe.  I was talking to a guy and in mid conversation he just blurts "You strike me as someone who would have lived in the 1950s" just from nowhere, made me laugh.

Tom;
Do you know Doc Brown, by any chance ???

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 10, 2010, 01:15:56 PM
Tom;
The jig is up.

Jim;
That used to happen to me a lot on the radio forum. Until I finally figured that I could go backpage 2 times, the first gave me a blank posting form, but the second backpage my notes would appear.
This happened for a year before I caught it.
I hope you get the passion back, so I can see how you document what you think.

Now that I think about it though, My set is so different from the production models, I'm beginning to think it must go back a ways farther, because their wasn't enough time between 48 Field Trails, and production, to implement all of the changes, from my set, to the production set.
 
So now my thought is this. two possible scenarios.......

1)  My set predates the 50, 1948 field Trial sets by a time, maybe 6 months to a year. That way they had time to correct, or change any items in my set, which would have culminated in the 50, 1948 field trial sets. From the 50, 1948 field Trials, to production, my thinking is not a whole lot was changed. Minor tweeking.

So to sum up my thoughts.
 
My set, if compared side by side to a 1948 field trail set, in my opinion, would look quite a bit different, for the reasons mentioned.

OR

2)  There may have been two, or more groups of field trial sets, distributed at the same time, all in contention for production, and my design lost the trials. That would explain the swapping of sets midway into the trials. If all of the sets were the same, why swap them ?

Example;
O.K. you tried that set, now tell us what you think of this one.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 10, 2010, 01:55:14 PM


Now that I think about it though, My set is so different from the production models, I'm beginning to think it must go back a ways farther, because their wasn't enough time between 48 Field Trails, and production, to implement all of the changes, from my set, to the production set.
 
So now my thought is this. two possible scenarios.......

1)  My set predates the 50, 1948 field Trial sets by a time, maybe 6 months to a year. That way they had time to correct, or change any items in my set, which would have culminated in the 50, 1948 field trial sets. From the 50, 1948 field Trials, to production, my thinking is not a whole lot was changed. Minor tweeking.

So to sum up my thoughts.
 
My set, if compared side by side to a 1948 field trail set, in my opinion, would look quite a bit different, for the reasons mentioned.

OR

2)  There may have been two, or more groups of field trial sets, distributed at the same time, all in contention for production, and my design lost the trials. That would explain the swapping of sets midway into the trials. If all of the sets were the same, why swap them ?

Example;
O.K. you tired that set, now tell us what you think of this one.

D/P

I tried this again. I typed it as a draft e-mail and pasted it to this message.
It isn't as long or eloquent as my original. I left out some of my other musings, including the handset/housing musing.

 Dan has started thinking along the same lines as I am regarding his set. It was Paul's ponderings that got me thinking.
________________________________________ ___
I will try this again.
Let's compare Dan's 500 to the 1949 sets and early 500's
 
Baseplate- Pretty much the same except for the mounting of some components and the verbage
 
Footpads- flat bottomed at the baseplate and screwed on
 
Switchook- I am not sure about the contacts, The plunger levers are different
 
Equalizer- Pretty much the same- main difference is the nut that helps create a heat sink
 
Network- splicing screws overhang the can
 
Dial- spotting ( ?) hole, different fingerwheel, different FW mounting  Z/ operator plate
 
Ringer- totally different
 
Markings_ verbiage on baseplate- One of the '49 sets has a label w/ different verbage (maybe it is over Painted verbiage?)
 
Dan's set has D# components as all major components, no dates. The 49 sets have standard components and production dates.
 
Now if I created a new telephone design, and tried it out a bit and decided it was worth while.
Would I:
 
A. Make a small batch with (D#'s) of about 50 sets, Field trial them , if successful, make some changes, then  build a production line and take the first 4,000 sets and do a widespread field trial.
 
                          OR
 
B. make 50 sets like Dan's set. Then change all of my designs, build a production line and then test the first 4,000 dated production phones
 
 
I would make do A . I think Dan's set was basically an patent/ engineering model.
I think the 1948 field trials would be a compromise of Dan's set and the early production models. All of Dan's components  are "different". I don't think they would jump directly from the design components to the production components. This would add to many variables.
 
Addressing the wording on the baseplate. Early Trial sets were tested In house at employees desks, at Bell executive homes, at Employees homes, and at some select trial customer homes (I met a lady who tried out a lot of the trial sets, She usually got to keep them when the tests were over.( I don't think there were very many customers who got to do this)
 Bell labs was full of engineers and telephones. Many of the telephones and components were being tested, some were being trialed, Some phones were just part of the phone system.
Any of the trial sets were probably marked, so the repairman would know if he should attempt repair or send it back to the lab for evaluation.
 
Just my opinions,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 10, 2010, 10:18:32 PM
Can someone direct me to what was the proper dial card ring components.
Right now I have the brass dial card ring, with the round steel insert, and plastic protector. I'm thinking it may have been all brass.
Any ideas ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 11, 2010, 12:15:00 AM
After reading all the various ideas about the exact dating of this phone I'd still place my money on it being one of the 50 1948 field trail pre-production phones.  While the production model has quite a few differences, none of them seem to be revolutionary, the basic pattern is set in this phone.  A few tweaks to the factory tooling and shazam, the phone we all know and love emerges. 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 11, 2010, 12:26:30 AM
Number card holder evolution will be an interesting topic.  Looking for dates may be a challenge, as they were so easy to swap among dials made from the 1920s through 60s.

I believe you're correct that the oldest ones were all brass.  Off the top of my head, I recall several versions:

Since the same basic hardware was used on #2, #4, #5, #6 and #7 dials, my guess is that the transition from brass happened well before the #7 dial was introduced.  ISTR the one piece inserts coming well after 1950, so that suggests the following...
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 11, 2010, 12:39:37 AM
Paul;
Would they have been aluminum, or do you think maybe brass. I think they probably tried the aluminum ?

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 11, 2010, 12:47:03 AM
I believe they were aluminum.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on April 11, 2010, 09:57:50 AM
Hey Dan/P, did you ask the seller where he ever originally found the phone? I know you may not want to tip your hand and reveal to him the bargain treasure you received, but maybe there is an old barn with a box of these things and he just pulled one out of a pile!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 11, 2010, 01:07:05 PM
I just wrote him again.  He doesn't have any auctions up at the time.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on April 11, 2010, 03:24:02 PM
Thanks, I really don't care if he has another one out there, I just wanted to know how he got this one in particular. This would be important in tracing the phone history.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 11, 2010, 03:31:12 PM
The other one has a funky housing, the handset is a bit different and it is clear. It isn't worth much tho because it doesn't have any dates. ;D
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 11, 2010, 04:11:37 PM
D/P:

Is it time for the first call yet?

Since the group has been so involved in the process, how about setting up a conference call using one of the free services so all can participate at the same time?  We could all dial in and after all is ready, you could hang up and dial in on the restored treasure.

It won't have the quality of a point to point POTS connection, but would be more of a shared event.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 11, 2010, 04:21:22 PM
I'm game for a conference, subject to my availability.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 11, 2010, 05:41:30 PM
Consider that a done deal when I'm completely finished with then phone. Right now I still do not have a straight handset cord. I've been looking every day but no luck so far.
Right now I'm working on the dial protective cover, I should have a vacuum formed copy of the original today. The original was badly warped, when it was on, the gears hit. I tried to straighten, but only succeeded in cracking it a bit. I know that's sad, but it wouldn't work with it on the dial anyhow.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 11, 2010, 05:55:07 PM
I will send Vern an e-mail and see if he has looked for a cord.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 12, 2010, 02:45:35 AM
D/P:

Is it time for the first call yet?

Since the group has been so involved in the process, how about setting up a conference call using one of the free services so all can participate at the same time?  We could all dial in and after all is ready, you could hang up and dial in on the restored treasure.

It won't have the quality of a point to point POTS connection, but would be more of a shared event.
Interesting concept. Everyone could dig out an interesting phone (and post a photo)for the call. I could use my 1958 F#53115 (soft) transparent  500. (current holy grail of clear 500's).
 
It should get recorded as well.



JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 12, 2010, 02:52:22 AM
Dan,
Have you thought about trying a PowerPointPresentation  about your phone? With current software it isn't to bad. You already have a lot of great photo's.

 I bet your daughter would be able to do a powerpoint presentation in a short evening.
With luck you could get her to do it for for a class assignment. She would get a good grade, you would get a power point presentation.
Just a thought ,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 12, 2010, 11:49:48 AM
On this conference call, I think everyone should call in using their oldest 500 (or similar) available. If most took a picture of themselves on the phone, then some photo montage could be done with all the pictures and some sound bites of how the old '48 500 sounds like after being dormant for so many years. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 12, 2010, 12:09:18 PM
I'm not up to speed as far as conference calls are concerned, and powerpoint presentation, I'm still trying to get my head around Power lunch...
Give me some more details on the conference call, how do you get several people from all around the worlds to call into one place at the same time, and have it really work. Sounds like half will never get connected ?
The powerpoint presentation, is that kinda like a slide show using an overhead projector with 8-1/2 X 11  glossies, but done on a computer.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 12, 2010, 12:51:21 PM
D/P:

Google is your friend.  Search for "free conference call" or "no cost conference call" to get  numerous choices.

My wife and I participate in regular conference calls hosted by nocostconference.com.  Many have over 50 participants and last over an hour.  Occasionally some lines are plagued with static, but usually there is no major problem.  Perhaps other have experience with other services.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 12, 2010, 01:01:40 PM
I got a reply to a note sent to Don Genaro informing him of the find and this thread.

He doesn't have any personal recollections, as this happened before he joined Dreyfuss.  After so many years, he doesn't remember any stories either.  He recalls that Bob Hose and Julian Everett worked on the 500 for Dreyfuss, and both passed away decades ago.

I sent him a few photos to whet his appetite and asked if he wanted to see more.  He did, so I passed along a sampling of the photos of the restoration process and a link to this thread.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 12, 2010, 01:19:58 PM
I used to have my own "bridge" to dial into for conference calls at work.  They'd fill up and other people would have to open their own bridge to allow more callers to participate, but the transmission quality was usually pretty good.  An occasional bit of noise, but otherwise a clean connection.  It would be fun to do that, and I've got my 10/50 right here by the laptop ready to use when the time comes.  I presume we'll need touchtone to access the bridge first, then get on our "real" phones once we're in.

And D/P, I couldn't have said it better.  I can do a Powerlunch, but am clueless about Powerpoint.  Perhaps someone with expertise in that area should host the call, and they can get pix etc. from you to assemble their presentation.  Perhaps everyone but you should dial in first, then when we are all present, you can get the cue to dial in and we can all be listening for the first words transmitted by your phone in over 60 years.  May I suggest something along the lines of:

"That's one small instrument for a trial, one giant impact on industrial design and telephony for the ages."
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 12, 2010, 01:41:58 PM
I have thought about it hard, and wanted to make sure that the first conversation on the phone did it justice. I thought about humor, with repeat of, "Watson come here", but thought better of the idea, then in and out with a few more ideas, but finally I think came up with what fits the occasion.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 12, 2010, 03:56:12 PM
I finished the dial protective cover, but I'm not real happy with it. I didn't have any plastic the right thickness and the stuff I bought was about half the thickness I needed, so I made a second one, using two piece of the thinner plastic, but it will do until I can get the right thickness.
Here are a couple photos I'll show you how I did it later.
Photo one is side by side, old and new.
photo two installed on the dial.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on April 12, 2010, 04:09:11 PM
ya did good
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 12, 2010, 07:04:49 PM
After reading all the various ideas about the exact dating of this phone I'd still place my money on it being one of the 50 1948 field trail pre-production phones.  While the production model has quite a few differences, none of them seem to be revolutionary, the basic pattern is set in this phone.  A few tweaks to the factory tooling and shazam, the phone we all know and love emerges. 

McHeath,
I agree it is most likely a '48 vs 49.
However it does seem to me to be on the early side of '48.
 Instead of branding it as a "48 however, I am trying to justify that it colud be earlier. If  only to help us keep open minds.

Either way I would say it is a pre-production set and it was around in 1948.

Before Paul came up with the examples, most money was on it being a 1949.
ISTR that you held firm on 1948.


JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 12, 2010, 07:10:43 PM
Dan,
Regarding powerPoint.

I intend your power point presntation to be a seperate projest.
Think of Powere point as a computer slide show w/ voice and/or captions.
I think it is included in OFFICE software now.
Around here the middle school kids have to learn how to do simple power point presentations. This is why I suggested you enlist your daughter to help.

My ulterior motive was to get you to use your photos and captions in a power point, and then point out how easy it could be converted into an informative booklet.  You would be surprised how cheap you can print booklets at the office supply store.

I guess I should of just contacted your agent, Bwanna.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 12, 2010, 07:12:35 PM
I believe they were aluminum.
I agree with Paul.
This phone has so much aluminum, that I suspect that was the backing material on the dial center.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 12, 2010, 07:20:12 PM
I have thought about it hard, and wanted to make sure that the first conversation on the phone did it justice. I thought about humor, with repeat of, "Watson come here", but thought better of the idea, then in and out with a few more ideas, but finally I think came up with what fits the occasion.

D/P
I checked w/ Vern (he was poking around in the back room at the time of the first call).

He said the actual first message was:
" AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH , #@%$$&&^**&%##@$%*(()&^#^&,,
WATSON!!! HELP ME."

The  call was intended  to be "Watson, Come here, and give me hand tossing this guy out of here, He keeps puting my phone parts in his pocket "

I tend towards Vern's version, over history's record.

JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 12, 2010, 07:34:13 PM
ok, sure jim....i can be agent & publisher ;)   power point is included in microsoft office. i have not ever used that particular program. i am competent in publisher & excel, so i could probably figure it out.

when you're ready to think about it d/p get ahold of me. maybe we can collaborate.

the conference call sounds like a fantastic idea. i don't think i can participate, tho. i'd cry my eyes out over the sheer magnitude of the occasion :'(     
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 12, 2010, 07:40:43 PM

the conference call sounds like a fantastic idea. i don't think i can participate, tho. i'd cry my eyes out over the sheer magnitude of the occasion :'(     

Catch it on Video, It would be a great promo shot. Daytime TV loves tears.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 12, 2010, 07:43:37 PM
Bwanna;
If you start to ball like a little baby, you can hang up, but we would like as many people as possible to participate.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 12, 2010, 08:15:04 PM
what would be really cool, in addition to the conference on rotary phones. hook up on skype, so we can all see each other, too.  .....

 past meets future.

i am sure it would be quite a hoot to see all us old farts dealing w/ technology ;)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 12, 2010, 08:50:17 PM
Donna,

Does Skype have conference calls?  That would be entertaining.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 12, 2010, 09:11:24 PM
i am not a regular skype user. we use it at my brother's house to talk to my out of state neice.

i just looked the their website, tho. unfortunately video conferences are not available.  :(

looks like we could use it as the medium for the conference phone call. i think only one person would actually have to have skype. others may know more about this than i do. 8)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 13, 2010, 12:52:12 AM
Quote
McHeath,
I agree it is most likely a '48 vs 49.
However it does seem to me to be on the early side of '48.
 Instead of branding it as a "48 however, I am trying to justify that it colud be earlier. If  only to help us keep open minds.

Either way I would say it is a pre-production set and it was around in 1948.

Before Paul came up with the examples, most money was on it being a 1949.
ISTR that you held firm on 1948.

Yeah I've been a 48' man for a while now, after seeing some of the first shots it seemed to be more in line with what little I'd heard about the 48's pre productions.

But what do I know?  I'm really a newbie at all this, and only going on what I've read here and there. 

It's too bad that Genaro has no stories to share about it, and that the men who worked on it are gone.  Hopefully there is a paper trail at Bell Labs.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on April 13, 2010, 04:27:03 AM
i am sure it would be quite a hoot to see all us old farts dealing w/ technology ;)

And us young ones too :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 13, 2010, 10:01:57 AM
Oh and I should also add the coolness factor that we actually got contact with Don Genaro is amazingly high!  This is the man who designed the Trimline, did the 2500, put the pick up grooves on the Princess and the creases on the 554, he was there designing the phones we collect today.  How cool is it that Paul got a reply from him about D/P's phone?

And on that cover you fabricated for the back of the dial, you never cease to amaze me D/P.  I'm starting to think that you could make the whole phone if you wanted to.  If we ever get stranded on a desert island you are the guy we want on our team.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: LarryInMichigan on April 13, 2010, 10:11:27 AM
Quote
And on that cover you fabricated for the back of the dial, you never cease to amaze me D/P.  I'm starting to think that you could make the whole phone if you wanted to.

If we ever run out of antique phones to collect, D/P can make us new ones ;)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on April 13, 2010, 10:28:38 AM
Dan, the job on the plastic cover is amazing.  Very nice.  I look forward to seeing a post some time of how you did that.  Perhaps a new thread just about that process.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 13, 2010, 10:47:56 AM
d/p.... i forgot to compliment you on your ingenuity in fabricating the dial cover :) nice job, keep up the good work  ;)

in hindsight it may have been prudent to set up a separate category devoted this topic. with each process in the restoration having it's own thread. it would probably be a nightmare now to do so now ??? moving the various posts to appropriate topic threads.....

just a crazy idea.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on April 13, 2010, 10:48:48 AM
Dan, the job on the plastic cover is amazing.  Very nice.  I look forward to seeing a post some time of how you did that.  Perhaps a new thread just about that process.

Agree with Dennis - I have no idea how you made that cover, Dan, but it's a heck of a good job.   Between that and reproducing the finger wheel, you are the man.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 13, 2010, 12:51:08 PM
The process of how to make that cover is not my invention, but I did build the unit that I used t make mine. It is relatively simple to do, it's like a magic trick, once you know the secret, it no big deal, and my guess is, most will have what you need to make your own right in your workshop, or  worst scenario, you may have to go to the local Home depot for the parts needed.
I will start a new thread about how to make your own. With 8X10 glossies, with a paragraph written on the back of each one.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 13, 2010, 01:25:30 PM
ok, sure jim....i can be agent & publisher ;)  i am competent in publisher & excel, so i could probably figure it out.
     

Bwanna;
I thought I was the only person on the planet that used Microsoft Publisher.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on April 13, 2010, 02:08:02 PM
I will start a new thread about how to make your own. With 8X10 glossies, with a paragraph written on the back of each one.

D/P

-- Complete with an "Alice's Restaurant" reference.  To be used as evidence against us.  So we put the half a ton of garbage in the back of the VW microbus, with shovels and rakes and implements of destruction...
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 13, 2010, 02:14:05 PM
Yeah, the "Alice's Restaurant" reference is actually sort of appropriate, considering D/P's phone was probably one run shy of heading to the garbage heap.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 13, 2010, 03:01:53 PM


Bwanna;
I thought I was the only person on the planet that used Microsoft Publisher.
D/P



is there something else  ??? ;D :o

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 13, 2010, 03:10:47 PM
You should try hanging around Alice's Restaurant, you know you can get anything you want.
D/P

Bwanna;
I had to go almost a year without it, because it wasn't compatible with Vista. Finally got it to run.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 14, 2010, 11:48:43 PM
Dan:

You sent me a question about handset wiring.

Here is a photo of my 1951 production model and how the handset cord is wired to the EQ...  I would expect your earlier model to be the same or at least similar.

Also, at the bottom of this post is the 500 a,b,j,k wiring diagram from the TCI technical pages which is the earlier EQ version.

Hope this helps!

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 14, 2010, 11:49:55 PM
For some reason the diagram in pdf form didn't seem to come through.  Here it is again.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2010, 02:02:59 AM
Bill;
Thanks for the schematic. Now one more part is in the can.
Well, I decided I wasn't going to be able to find the right cord, SO! you guessed it, I made one. All I could find was 4 conductor cord with 1 Red, 1 Black, 1 White, and 1 Green. So I got a can of white Fusion paint for plastics, and painted the green wire white.
I was going to use old spade connectors, but by the time I got them off of the old wires, they just didn't look good. So I had to use new spade connectors. However I did get to crimp them with genuine Bell System crimping pliers.
I was able to find the chassis cord mounting hooks in brass, with no markings, cleaned them up and they turned out nice.
Here are a few photos of the cord, the wiring to the phone, and the wiring to the handset. One photo is of the completed phone, FINALLY complete and READY TO USE.
D/P

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 15, 2010, 08:48:12 AM
unbelievably exxxxxcellllllllannnnnnt!! ;D :o :D :o :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on April 15, 2010, 09:21:48 AM
unbelievably exxxxxcellllllllannnnnnt!! ;D :o :D :o :)

I'll second that.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 15, 2010, 10:09:19 AM
See, there he goes again, making parts whenever he needs one and they look great.   :)

It looks fantastic, you've brought this phone back and have done a service to history in the process. You should be very proud of your work.  Again, this phone clearly fell into the right hands as you have the talent to fix and replace the parts needed, coupled with the respect and care for it's place in history. 

Great work!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2010, 12:50:50 PM
WOW! I am truly humble before you all.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 15, 2010, 01:08:32 PM
D/P

I am dying to find out about it working or not.  Even without making that first historic phone call, do you at least get dial tone?

 ;D
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2010, 01:15:46 PM
O.K. this is what everyone I think was waiting for ?

I connected the phone to the line...

I get a dial tone,

I get a sweet Clickety Click when I dial, one like I've never heard before.

It breaks Dial Tone,

My cell phone rings,

Then I dialed my home phone number......

The D#17701 rang with the nicest ring I've heard,

When I lifted the receiver, it stopped ringing.

So As Far As I can Tell, It Does Work As Advertised....I am stoked....

I do not know if the Transmitter works or not as I did not talk over the phone as promised.
So Anytime we can go ahead with the conference call.....

Are there any Historic telephone related dates coming up soon ?


D/P


Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 15, 2010, 01:17:13 PM
D/P:

Are you sure you are not related to MacGyver?

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2010, 01:34:31 PM
D/P:

Are you sure you are not related to MacGyver?



The closest I can get to MacGyver, is a couple Mission Impossibles.

There were a couple times, I was sweating bullets, thinking, "What If I break This part, they don't make em anymore ?"
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2010, 02:44:11 PM
Here's a photo of the phone on top of My vintage Philco television 1950 model.
Not a very good photo.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Wallphone on April 15, 2010, 03:05:44 PM
Did you do that on purpose to get Dennis M. riled up?
IT'S TOO CLOSE TO THE EDGE !!!
I hope that you don't have cats.
Dougpav
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 15, 2010, 03:22:10 PM

I get a sweet Clickety Click when I dial, one like I've never heard before.


Dan:

When you say that you hear the sweet clickety click, I would hope that you are talking about purely the mechanical noise from the gears of the dial itself and not dial pops or loud clicks in the receiver.  The receiver should be muted by the dial shunt springs so it should be silent during dialing.

From what you have posted, this is very exciting information.  keep up the great work.  And that is one nice collection you have going on there.  My sincere compliments!

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2010, 03:26:52 PM
Doug;
Nope no cats here.
It's actually not close to the edge. It's in a spot not where normal traffic walks.
My kids know when they come in this room, it's touch nothing.

We missed the March of 1876 issue of the patent for the telephone to bell, the next major date would be July 10th, Ist transcontinental conversion.

Can anyone figure out the significant coincidence of this photo as it relates to today ?

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2010, 03:33:10 PM
Bill;
I do hear a clickity-click in the receiver, soft but audible. Does that mean I should tear out the dial and put in another one ?
Or what else may be causing the problem, is it possible to damage anything the way it is.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 15, 2010, 03:51:35 PM
D/P:

To check if the dial is doing its job, you could place a DVM across the white leads from the receiver and measure the resistance when you move the finger wheel from its rest position. It should be zero or very close to zero. When the dial rests, it should be a non zero value.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2010, 04:08:23 PM
Jorge;

I will check the dial as soon as I get back from picking up the kids from school.

If it's not proper, what may be done to correct it, is it that the contacts are bent, misaligned ????
I have heard this before on another phone but can't recall which on it was.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 15, 2010, 04:50:28 PM
Before doing anything, I would start with Jorge's suggestion to see if the shunt springs are doing their thing.

Definitely fixable.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 15, 2010, 05:04:35 PM
D/P:

In 99.9% of the cases, some alcohol and a few Q tips will take care of the problem. I don't like to clean contacts with gritty materials because some contacts are plated with some fancy materials and you don't want to erode those away.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 15, 2010, 06:53:55 PM
Quote
Can anyone figure out the significant coincidence of this photo as it relates to today ?

Titanic sank.  You have a poster for the ship on the back wall.  I know this arcane factoid because the ship hit the iceberg on my birthday and sank the next day.

Lincoln was also shot on my birthday and died the next day.

The Persians also burned Athens on my birthday.

Hmmm.... ;)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2010, 07:05:06 PM
McHeath;
Correct.

Jorge;
the DVM shows 9.7 ohms at rest, when moved it shows about 1 ohm.
Which contacts are you speaking of the ones on the dial, or the line switch contacts ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 15, 2010, 07:17:16 PM
D/P:

I am referring to the dial contacts.

I would clean the dial contacts with alcohol. To eliminate the resistance of the leads from the measurement, check how much resistance the meter sees when you short the test leads together. Then subtract that number from the measurements you made. About one ohm or less seems OK to me. I can check it with my 2-50 when I get home tonite.



Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2010, 07:22:32 PM
I asked Dennis if he would give me an estimate on making a pair of feet made from converted 500 riveted feet. I've been waiting for his quote so I could send him the money, as we weren't sure it would even work. Well I get another set of feet today in the mail, that corrected the problem, of the foot not protruding far enough past the edge of the case when the case was on the chassis. We had fit the old feet before the case was mounted and found the shape was just a little to flat for the 500 frame shape. New feet are absolutely perfect.

Dennis;
What a guy. Thanks a billion.  

As far as  some of the early 500 frames having been fitted with screwed on riveted style feet, we  know now  it is at least possible to make them.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2010, 07:38:15 PM
Could it be possible that the EQ supresses this sound , and the EQ in my set is not functioning. If that is the case what damage can be done if any.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 15, 2010, 08:19:38 PM
D/P:

My 2-50 with EQ has a faint clicking sound during dial release. A '55 500 also has a faint clicking sound during release. I think you are OK.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 15, 2010, 08:48:09 PM
I didn't think it mattered it is a very faint tick tick tick. So soft you can hardly hear it.
I agree, I think it's o.k. I know I've heard it many times before, but I can't recall which phone I heard it on ?
Thanks Jorge.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 15, 2010, 11:51:27 PM
If it is faint, and you can hardly hear it then it is ok.  It would be a problem on the ears and detract from the functionality if it were a loud pop, pop, pop.

The dial shunt springs are there to short out the receiver during the dialing so that you do not hear the dial opening and closing the circuit.  No dial shunt springs are absolutely perfect, and there will be a slight amount of resistance between the contacts and the wires, and so it is common to hear a very slight tick, tick, tick.  Everyones description of such things are somewhat different, and the way we interpret the descriptions can be different too.

I sure did not mean to lead you into believing that a slight sound was something to be concerned about, so my appologies.  What I was referring to originally was loud pops and loud clicks.

Sounds like it is raring to go, and it sounds like you have hit a homer when it comes to that phone.  Congratulations, Dan!

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 15, 2010, 11:59:18 PM
I asked Dennis if he would give me an estimate on making a pair of feet made from converted 500 riveted feet. I've been waiting for his quote so I could send him the money, as we weren't sure it would even work. Well I get another set of feet today in the mail, that corrected the problem, of the foot not protruding far enough past the edge of the case when the case was on the chassis. We had fit the old feet before the case was mounted and found the shape was just a little to flat for the 500 frame shape. New feet are absolutely perfect.

Dennis;
What a guy. Thanks a billion.  

As far as  some of the early 500 frames having been fitted with screwed on riveted style feet, we  know now  it is at least possible to make them.

D/P

I recently found a rebuilt 500 with 2 early riveted feet and 2 screwed on rubber feet. I also found a 5302 w/ 2 screw on rubber feet.
These were in the phone find I bought on Tuesday.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 16, 2010, 12:18:46 AM
I fully understand the need to come up with something NEW, but this thing with all the different style feet is really bizarre. I mean it's not like they are all completely different, basically they are very similar, and to a novice probably quite the same in appearance, I just don't understand the number of variations. If cost savings was the bottom line when it came to cutting for the final production run, this is definitely one spot they overlooked.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on April 16, 2010, 12:44:57 AM
D/P the phone looks great and I am happy to hear that it works.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on April 16, 2010, 01:14:32 AM
Dan

Glad the footpads worked out.  Your footpads are unique and would not have made it to production.

First Ma Bell had a strategy to reduce or eliminate field repair for the 500 so being able to remove the footpads was not necessary.  Repair centers with the appropriate equipment were set up.  Phones were replaced with other phones and the old phone went to the repair center.  This was to reduce the number of trained field service people.

In manufacturing it is less expensive to put in rivets than screws.  Rivets cost less than screws.  The tapping step eliminated.  It is also easier to automate riveting.  I believe automation is also why the dimples were put back into the footpad plate and the holes in the base plate.  By making the bump on the base round rather than triangular the footpad can move on the bump until the dimples fall into the base plate alignment hole then the rivets are inserted and crimped.  All this was to reduce cost to produce the phone.    

As far as the 500 footpads in production are concerned, I have only seen four.  

1.  Leather rivetted (1949)
2.  Neoprene triangular riveted (1958)
3.  Neoprene round ribbed riveted (1963)
4.  Neoprene round flat riveted (1966)

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 16, 2010, 01:31:58 AM
I have a set that is 2 original leather riveted feet, and 2 round rubber feet. This set was "c" stock. The blue handset cord waas painted black.

Regarding Dennis's statement on Feet.
I think The bumps also kept the feet aligned as time progressed. I think screwed feet would loosen and wobble.

I suspect my Rubber 5302 screw feet were unique to 5302's.
The screw on 500 feet struck me as factory.
I just pulled a foot .

This screw on 500 foot is on a 1956 base. The back side of the rubber foot has 58 molded (raised) . The rubber foot is molded as 1 piece including the bumps. The threaded piece seems to be designed for the foot, and is either molded in or a tight fitted insert. Photos later.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on April 16, 2010, 05:37:33 AM
Oh, if you were wearing lipstick, I'd bet it'd be on both ears for a smile as big as I bet yours was when you heard that dialtone, that ring, I'm just smiling thinking about it.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 16, 2010, 01:28:52 PM
Oh, if you were wearing lipstick, I'd bet it'd be on both ears for a smile as big as I bet yours was when you heard that dialtone, that ring, I'm just smiling thinking about it.

Tom;
I only wear lipstick on the weekends. But that's a story for another thread.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on April 16, 2010, 02:09:39 PM
Scary visual D/P!
l
Oh, if you were wearing lipstick, I'd bet it'd be on both ears for a smile as big as I bet yours was when you heard that dialtone, that ring, I'm just smiling thinking about it.

Tom;
I only wear lipstick on the weekends. But that's a story for another thread.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: benhutcherson on April 16, 2010, 04:47:57 PM
Quote
This screw on 500 foot is on a 1956 base. The back side of the rubber foot has 58 molded (raised) . The rubber foot is molded as 1 piece including the bumps. The threaded piece seems to be designed for the foot, and is either molded in or a tight fitted insert. Photos later

I have an early('53 I think) base which was later refurbished with 4 feet of a similar arrangement to what you're describing. The rubber is one piece, and it's held on by a sort of screw and nut arrangement.

(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee204/ben10ben/IMG_0867.jpg)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 16, 2010, 07:03:11 PM
Ben,
That is the setup I was talking about. The screw goes in from the top, and there is a nut-type piece in the foot. I didn't check to see if the "nut" is a seperate piece , or if it molded with the foot.Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: benhutcherson on April 16, 2010, 08:05:36 PM
The nut is definitely a separate piece, although, as I recall, it's a fairly tight fit inside the foot.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on April 16, 2010, 10:36:49 PM
The nut is definitely a separate piece, although, as I recall, it's a fairly tight fit inside the foot.
The one's I have seen used 1/4" long binding screw nuts which have an 8-32 thread which is the same as the 302 footpad screw.  I do not remember the exact dimensions but the rivet has a 9/64" shaft which would make the hole 5/32".  If the binding post shank is 3/16" the binding post nut could be forced through the hole in the neoprene giving a tight fit.  If someone has a magnet, could they check to see if the nut is aluminum?

If these phones had been refurbished at a Bell service center the footpad would be riveted on.  They had the tools and the rivets to do it that way.  

One issue with the rivets and neoprene pads is they corrode with moisture.  People took them off then needed a way to put them on without riveting.

Dennis    
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 16, 2010, 10:52:39 PM
Dennis;
Would the people you refer to as "they took them off because they were corroded", would they be subscribers or refurb people. If it were refurb people wouldn't they also have the means to rivet them back on ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 16, 2010, 10:55:54 PM
The screw is 8-32. The #'s seem to be mold #'s, not part #'s.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 16, 2010, 10:56:24 PM
If everyone is still interested in the conference call, this weekend may be a good time, but I have no idea how to set it up.
Just tell me what to do, I'll do it.  Maybe tomorrow evening early enough for West Coast people, but not too late for East coasters.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 16, 2010, 10:58:17 PM
The screw is 8-32. The #'s seem to be mold #'s, not part #'s.
Jim

My experience with small molded parts is the number is usually the number of a certain cavity in a multiple cavity mold.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 17, 2010, 12:27:16 AM
Jim, Paul;

Have we discussed the drawing below as it relates to my phone ?
I've been looking at the drawing submitted to the patent office September 16th, 1948, and I find 7 points that directly match my phone, even the FBI only needs 5 points for positive I.D. on fingerprints.

The matches are as follows.

1) Hook switch same profile.
2) Horizontal Hook switch levers.
3) Screwed on Feet.
4) Same cover as my dial.
5) Overhanging network cover.
6) Frame has missing later model section.
7) 3 point mounted Ringer.

 These points defineitely dates the phone to 1948.

D/P
 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 17, 2010, 12:35:56 AM
I've found an 8th match, #8 on the photo, the nut on the EQ.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on April 17, 2010, 12:47:29 AM
Dennis;
Would the people you refer to as "they took them off because they were corroded", would they be subscribers or refurb people. If it were refurb people wouldn't they also have the means to rivet them back on ?
D/P
Dan

Subscribers after the change from leased to owned (early 1980's?).  I doubt many people would want to pay to replace coroded rivets.

When Bell owned the phones the Bell service center would rivet them if the phone was removed from service.  I am not sure when Bell stopped repair service repair centers.   I suspect corroded rivets would not be considered a service issue so it would only happen if the phone was removed for another reason.

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 17, 2010, 12:50:38 AM
Just a little humor:

Looks like yours was original without the handset, according to the drawing there was no handset.  Must have been the early hands-free model.

Actually, that drawing looks like the exact one for your set, all kidding aside.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 17, 2010, 12:51:02 AM
Dennis;
Would the people you refer to as "they took them off because they were corroded", would they be subscribers or refurb people. If it were refurb people wouldn't they also have the means to rivet them back on ?
D/P
Dan

Subscribers after the change from leased to owned (early 1980's?).  I doubt many people would want to pay to replace coroded rivets.

When Bell owned the phones the Bell service center would rivet them if the phone was removed from service.  I am not sure when Bell stopped repair service repair centers.   I suspect corroded rivets would not be considered a service issue so it would only happen if the phone was removed for another reason.

Dennis

So are you saying that probably those were replaced by a refurb station as part of a major repair ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 17, 2010, 12:52:36 AM
Just a little humor:

Looks like yours was original without the handset, according to the drawing there was no handset.  Must have been the early hands-free model.

Actually, that drawing looks like the exact one for your set, all kidding aside.

Bill;
Then you would tend to agree that it dates my phone 1948, or earlier ?
That would also explain why mine had no handset !  :o
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: dencins on April 17, 2010, 12:56:04 AM
Dennis;
Would the people you refer to as "they took them off because they were corroded", would they be subscribers or refurb people. If it were refurb people wouldn't they also have the means to rivet them back on ?
D/P
Dan

Subscribers after the change from leased to owned (early 1980's?).  I doubt many people would want to pay to replace coroded rivets.

When Bell owned the phones the Bell service center would rivet them if the phone was removed from service.  I am not sure when Bell stopped repair service repair centers.   I suspect corroded rivets would not be considered a service issue so it would only happen if the phone was removed for another reason.

Dennis

So are you saying that probably those were replaced by a refurb station as part of a major repair ?
D/P
Dan

I would say the use of a screw rather than a rivet probably took place between 1980 and whenever the phone was no longer used by the owner. 

Dennis
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 17, 2010, 01:02:31 AM
I can't find a single point on that drawing that doesn't match my phone. Does a drawing exist like that for the 49 model ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 17, 2010, 01:23:21 AM
Jim, Paul;

Have we discussed the drawing below as it relates to my phone ?
I've been looking at the drawing submitted to the patent office September 16th, 1948, and I find 7 points that directly match my phone, even the FBI only needs 5 points for positive I.D. on fingerprints.
<snip>
 These points defineitely dates the phone to 1948.

D/P

D/P:  It certainly looks convincing.  You can also add the plastic fingerwheel to your list of matches.

To clarify, we know that the design was made before the application was filed in Sept 1948, but don't necessarily know when the phone was actually made.  One would guess they had at least one working model when the application was made, but your phone could have been made either before or after that date.

One nice feature of that drawing is that the housing looks like the production housing, so the one currently on your set is probably reasonably accurate.

Another interesting feature of that application is figure 7, which shows the later production model hookswitch and arm.  That hookswitch has the snap in dust cover we associate with the production sets.  Therefore that design was also available on the same date, but we're guessing it wasn't made until the production run.  Hmmmmm.

I'm going to have to budget some time to read the application in detail.

I haven't found a later patent drawing that shows the later set.  All are welcome to search the patent database!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 17, 2010, 01:27:45 AM
I have been busy searching some other info:
http://www.archive.org/stream/bellsystemtechni32amerrich#page/611/mode/1up

There are some good photos of early components.
I think starting around fig 7.

I need to go back on this thread and make comments later.
The recent postings are some good stuff.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 17, 2010, 01:42:12 AM

I haven't found a later patent drawing that shows the later set.  All are welcome to search the patent database!

It's possible that the differences were minor enough that a seperate patent filing wasn't made for the 1949 version.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 17, 2010, 01:44:43 AM
The article I posted has some difference about changes made. It is around figure 7. I really haven't read thru it yet and compared it to Dan's set.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 17, 2010, 01:48:50 AM
The 1953 BSTJ article focuses on changes made when going from the 425A to 425B network that resulted in eliminating the equalizer.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 17, 2010, 01:55:16 AM
I would have to agree with 1948.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 17, 2010, 02:29:26 AM
Jim, Paul;

Have we discussed the drawing below as it relates to my phone ?
I've been looking at the drawing submitted to the patent office September 16th, 1948, and I find 7 points that directly match my phone, even the FBI only needs 5 points for positive I.D. on fingerprints.

The matches are as follows.

1) Hook switch same profile.
2) Horizontal Hook switch levers.
3) Screwed on Feet.
4) Same cover as my dial.
5) Overhanging network cover.
6) Frame has missing later model section.
7) 3 point mounted Ringer.

 These points defineitely dates the phone to 1948.

D/P
 
Dan,
This is first I have seen of this drawing. You need to print out some nice copies of all these relevant patent drawings for your display.
 I have a 1954 scrap housing that was non-factory line notched, this will make a good part to split for a Patent drawing cut-away housing. 
Housing #2 is broken on the wrong side for the patent housing, but it is good for the clear/ black set.
I will stick it (#3) in the box. This housing came off of the rubber screwed foot phone.
_____________________________________

Regarding the comparison points. Your phone matches. I feel it is safe to say that it predates the 1949 early production sets. At the very least it is a 1948 pre-production set.  BTW the BSTJ May 1949 article shows clear plungers. I am leaning toward clear plungers for the pre-production sets. The black ones were cheaper and probably used in the early production sets as a cost cutting measure (JMO).
I am glad Paul decided to muddle thru the patent info. That stuff is hard to focus on.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 17, 2010, 02:51:07 AM
Dennis;
Would the people you refer to as "they took them off because they were corroded", would they be subscribers or refurb people. If it were refurb people wouldn't they also have the means to rivet them back on ?
D/P

Dan

Subscribers after the change from leased to owned (early 1980's?).  I doubt many people would want to pay to replace coroded rivets.

When Bell owned the phones the Bell service center would rivet them if the phone was removed from service.  I am not sure when Bell stopped repair service repair centers.   I suspect corroded rivets would not be considered a service issue so it would only happen if the phone was removed for another reason.

Dennis

So are you saying that probably those were replaced by a refurb station as part of a major repair ?
D/P
Dan,
I beleive this sub topic is on the later rubber screwed feet. Your set had unique screwed feet,
My guess on the later screwed feet was from a non bell bell refurb. It is easy to set-up a drill press to remove feet. If you have min. wage employees then it was probaly easier/cheaper/ faster to have them screw feet vs buying a rivit machine to do it to bell standard. It also helped differentiate rebuild sets.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 17, 2010, 02:54:43 AM
Just a little humor:

Looks like yours was original without the handset, according to the drawing there was no handset.  Must have been the early hands-free model.

Actually, that drawing looks like the exact one for your set, all kidding aside.

Bill;
Then you would tend to agree that it dates my phone 1948, or earlier ?
That would also explain why mine had no handset !  :o
D/P
I would add the lack of handset as a (tounge-in-check) point. It is a valid point.
I am surprised you missed the finger wheel tho, you only spent 2 work days of labor to create the replacement.
Jim

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 17, 2010, 12:53:52 PM
The only reason I omitted the fingerwheel, is some could argue I have no way to know what it is made of as it doesn't specify.
I don't know how we missed this drawing as it has been floating around this thread since early on, the drawing actually focused on the hookswitch, and the chassis was turned 90 Degrees.

Here is the actual drawing as I first looked at it, on a whim I decided to turn the drawing 90 degrees so as to orient the chassis bottom side down, at that point is when all of the matching points just jumped off the page.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 17, 2010, 01:35:43 PM
The only reason I omitted the fingerwheel, is some could argue I have no way to know what it is made of as it doesn't specify.
I don't know how we missed this drawing as it has been floating around this thread since early on, the drawing actually focused on the hookswitch, and the chassis was turned 90 Degrees.

Here is the actual drawing as I first looked at it, on a whim I decided to turn the drawing 90 degrees so as to orient the chassis bottom side down, at that point is when all of the matching points just jumped off the page.

D/P
That is probably why it got missed. Early on we were churning thru as much as a page an hour. There was lots of info being posted and a whole lot of discussion going on.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 17, 2010, 02:58:41 PM
If someone will direct me as to the quickest procedure for doing patents searches, even if the search is fee based, I will gladly do the footwork.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 17, 2010, 02:59:58 PM
D/P:

Why pay when you can get it for free?

http://www.google.com/patents

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 17, 2010, 03:22:18 PM

The patent numbers to search for are:
  G Handset: 151,614
  Base: 153,928
  Line Switch: 2,566,840
  Ringer: 2,590,500

Has anyone tracked down patent info for the handset element?

Paul

Paul,
Try http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4425482.html


There are several patents related to the "ring armature receiver"
And improvements to it.

The first  patent is 2506609
The patent trail is:
2520646 Electroacoustic transducer August, 1950 Mott 179/115R
2520640 Electroacoustic transducer August, 1950 Kreisel 179/114R
2506624 Electroacoustic transducer May, 1950 Wirsching 179/120
2506609 Ring armature telephone receiver May, 1950 Mott 179/120
2249160 Acoustic device July, 1941 Mott 179/120
2170571 Acoustic device August, 1939 Mott 179/119R


Jim

Dan,
Iwas using freepatentsonline.com  I signed up for the free account , the free account has some nice features

Some of the patents in Pauls list came up bhy putting a D in front.
Also you can scan the document for previous patents that might give you some leads.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 17, 2010, 05:37:19 PM
Well here is the drawing for the handset, Patent Applied for date of June 24, 1947, so it is a possibility they had time to make a Prototype, using my set as early as 1947.  
It is a possibility, but I doubt it, for the simple reason, in the next photo, it shows the Henry Dreyfus designed base, which is Patent Applied for dated, March 19, 1948, which leads me to believe the production style base had not yet been finalized. I would assume my set did not appear until after the production style base was ready. UNLESS they made one with the first designed base.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 17, 2010, 06:38:36 PM
Did you read thru the switchook patent to try to get a patent number for the standard housing. I am thinking it may be referenced there.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on April 17, 2010, 07:02:38 PM
I am glad he decided to use a different design than that would have been an ugly phone
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 17, 2010, 07:16:14 PM
Jim;
I'm going to print hard copies so I can look at my leisure.
Kenny;
You took the words out of my mouth, the case is ugly.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 17, 2010, 07:43:38 PM
Jim;
I'm going to print hard copies so I can look at my leisure.
Kenny;
You took the words out of my mouth, the case is ugly.
D/P

There is a phone that is styled a bit like that design. It may of been ATC. It is a 500 type phone w/ a 3" dial. They were white and had "racing Stripes" on the side. I was thinking I had it in a book, but I can't find it. I remember seeing them on Ebay. ISTR that the stripes were a orange and yellow.

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on April 17, 2010, 07:50:38 PM
I do not think that phone would have been as nearly as popular as the design he went with.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 17, 2010, 09:46:48 PM
D/P:

I have opened an account with one of the free conference services and have run a quick test.  Let us know when you want to schedule the conference and I'll post instructions on how to dial in.

The system requires touchtone input to enter the access code (followed by # sign), so rotary phone users should plan to have a touchtone phone on the line and within reach.

If I read the instructions right, it looks like we can record the call and replay it later through the service or even download it in .wav format to preserve it for posterity.  So you should be able to put a CD of the call in your growing collection of set memorabilia.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 17, 2010, 10:46:46 PM
Paul;

I am available any time day or night, so whatever everyone else feels, is fine with me. I thought about 5 o'clock PM Pacific time, that way it will only be 8 o'clock back East.
Any suggestions ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 18, 2010, 02:44:03 AM
Paul;

I am available any time day or night, so whatever everyone else feels, is fine with me. I thought about 5 o'clock PM Pacific time, that way it will only be 8 o'clock back East.
Any suggestions ?
D/P
Careful what you ask for: My suggestion follows,

You need to post it with at least a  72 hour notice. You should have a sign in thread before hand and a roll call by handle during the call (alpha-numerically), acknowledgement includes the info of the phone being used.
A seperate link thread for the phone call info so everyone can post their call in phone and also a real or staged full face shot of them using the phone.
Every one should try to use their "coolest" phone for the call. Kenny should use his 1962 500, I am planning on using a 6-9-58 F-53115 transparent 500 set. A green 532 amplified set should get used(hint). You should use a phone that is significant to you or that you mentioned on the list, or that is a really oddball and cool set... If your oldest phone is a 1983 mod SC 500- use it.
I am thinking  a sign-in thread and post a photo of the phone on hook. After the call, post a real or staged photo of you using the phone during the call. If it is a real photo, take a pic during roll call. we can create a neat slide show to go with the wav file. Make sure the "action" photo shows your face.
 (can we consider this a book Promo and get Bwanna to do the slide show?)

 Rotary's work for dialing in, DTMF is only needed to access the site.


Just some of my opinions.
D/P's  phone is one of the most significant and (post)-documented in history. When he is gone, it and all related files should eventually end up in the phone section of the Smithsonian( Our Nation's Attic). It and the documentation is quite worthy. Let's blow them away on the documentation.

JMO ('cause you asked),
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: gpo706 on April 18, 2010, 03:57:25 AM
How's about calling switching from the oldest set to the newest?

a 1948 500 talikng to a country junction set, then progressing?

The audio recording could be laid over a video or Powerpoint with pics of all the equipment connecting.

(I'll not be on, but will wait for the recording).

S.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 18, 2010, 01:13:21 PM
Jim;
I'm all for your suggestions, I wouldn't have a clue how to co-ordinate all of that. But seriously WHATEVER time I need to hook up I will. Whether noon or 3 AM.

Was the Smithsonian comment tongue in cheek ? I can not even imagine something I have had contact with being in the Smithsonian.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 18, 2010, 02:08:05 PM
I think that makes at least four of us who have mentioned the Smithsonian regarding your phone, Dan.  I don't think it's at all far-fetched.

Here's what I was thinking we'd all like to know prior to the conference call:

If you have the capability, could you perhaps create a video or otherwise capture the sound of the phone's dial and ringer?  I think we're all dying to hear how both of those components sound compared to production 500's we're all accustomed to.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 18, 2010, 04:11:52 PM
I have a wave file of the dial in operation, but I'm not sure how to post it. I don't know if I post it like a photo or what. But if it doesn't work, someone tell me how to get it posted.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on April 18, 2010, 04:15:30 PM
Dan, it worked fine with Microsoft Media Player.  The volume is low.  I had to turns things up a bit---but it sounds great.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on April 18, 2010, 05:05:20 PM
i does sound different.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 18, 2010, 06:12:08 PM
Thanks D/P, that worked fine for me too with Media Player. 

It sort of sounds like the #6 on my 5302, but the ratcheting up sound as you move the dial clockwise is unique.  Very smooth and refined, and likely too well-built for mass production.  I suppose it's super low mileage.  Hey--could this be one of the dials as are pictured in that bank of dials that are being tested?  I don't know if there's any way to determine that, but I think we can be fairly certain that they didn't do that same sort of testing once production was underway.

I agree that the term '48 500 is appropriate for the time being if not permanently.  We've all been so obsessed with the elusive production model '49 500's that we never thought an even earlier trial model would ever surface.

Ralph
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 18, 2010, 07:49:55 PM
Wow, that is one very smooth sounding WE dial.  Too bad they didn't put that one into production.  Besides having a different gear train altogether, I suspect that the nylon gear has something to do with its being so quiet.  That is probably why they went to nylon gears later on.  Perhaps the nylon gears were not ready for prime time in 1948.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 18, 2010, 08:20:50 PM
Thanks for that sound file, it's very different and unique.

I'm all for a conference call, perhaps we ought to shoot for next weekend.  That would give everyone time to check in who wants to be part.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 18, 2010, 09:39:51 PM
The 17th would be good if no one objects.

Here's a project for someone. Figure out a way to connect a single microphone wired with a stereo plug, into a 48/500 telephone to record both converstaions on the phone.  That's one common and a left channel wire and a right channel wire that can be connected together. so basically where to hook two wires.That way i can wire it directly to the computer toi record the entire conversation without background noice interfering.


D/P

One of those suction cup contraption doesn't work.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 18, 2010, 10:08:57 PM
Did you mean to look at next Saturday on the calendar? The 24th?

There was a device called something like a recording coupler that was used in broadcasting to link audio lines to the phone line.  I have one in a box somewhere and have been meaning to try it out.  Perhaps someone familiar with broadcasting has more details.  I'll look for BSPs tomorrow or Tuesday.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 18, 2010, 10:16:03 PM
Colin Chambers who has signed up for this list, but has YET to participate has just the circuit for this.  Colin, are you listening?

I can build one and send it to you, but that, of course will take a few days.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 18, 2010, 11:24:47 PM
Yes Paul; I meant the 24th. Too bad Dennis' Birthday is Thursday, unless that works ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 18, 2010, 11:39:13 PM
I talked to Colin on the phone.

THe TU-016 transformer is a 1:1 600 ohm impedance center tapped transformer that can be used by clip-leads to the receiver of a WE 500 phone through a 470 ohm resistor in series with the primary.  The center-tap of the secondary would be connected to the grounds of the two audio inputs, and two 4.7k ohm resistors would be used off each of the other leads of the secondary to the audio inputs.

He recommended that a second 500 be used, calling in from a second line to the conference in order to keep from having the problem that if a participant was using their phone to do the recording, their voice would be heard much louder than the other participants.  The phone that is being used to do the recording should also have its transmitter unscrewed to keep background noise from that phone from interfering with the recording.

Dan, if you want, I can build this circuit and send it to you or to whoever might have a second line so that they can call in from two lines at the same time.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 18, 2010, 11:52:25 PM
Would I then be able to connect it to the mic input on my computer for a wave recording ?

Do let me see if I understand the set up.
I would use the 48-500 to talk and listen to the other members, I would have a second 500 with the transmitter deactivated used for hooking to my computer ( using Colins Device ) to do the actual recording, so nothing would have to be connected to the 48-500 ?
If that's the way it works I like that set up.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 19, 2010, 12:21:24 AM
Would I then be able to connect it to the mic input on my computer for a wave recording ?

Yes.

Quote
Do let me see if I understand the set up.
I would use the 48-500 to talk and listen to the other members, I would have a second 500 with the transmitter deactivated used for hooking to my computer ( using Colins Device ) to do the actual recording, so nothing would have to be connected to the 48-500 ?
If that's the way it works I like that set up.
D/P


This is also a yes,  but with a caveat.  The phone that is doing the recording should not be on the same line that you are on, otherwise your voice will be very much louder than the other voices in the conference.  This is not a deal-killer, but could be distracting.  Colin suggests that someone with two separate phone lines call in to the conference;  one to participate and the other to do the recording.  Either that or have someone that does not participate to have the recording phone to call into the conference.

Radio stations had fancier devices to keep this from happening.  Maybe we could talk someone into calling in just to do the recording.... - or-   If you do not have a second line, I can volunteer to build the device and record, and I can call in on my cell phone to participate.  That way, I would not have to ship the "device" across the country for the conference.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 19, 2010, 12:27:06 AM
Bill;
That would be great if you could do that.
Saves time and money all around.
Do you have wave recording capability on your computer, I'm sure it's standard on windows.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 19, 2010, 12:32:58 AM
Yes, I can record, and I have done it several times, althugh just short things.  I don't suppose there is any time limit is there?

I have Windows Vista on my computer and the computer is a little over 2 years old.  It's an HP computer and has all the standard sound stuff built in.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 19, 2010, 12:38:53 AM
Bill;
Yes the same set up, Vista.
Should work great.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 19, 2010, 12:47:17 AM
Bill,

Perhaps you and I can run a quick test of the conference service's recording capability tomorrow.  If they provide a reasonable quality .wav file, that takes some of the pressure off other recording efforts.  Although it's obviously wise to have several recording plans in play.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 19, 2010, 01:28:09 AM
No problem.  I am in the Pacific time zone, and I will rig it up after I get home from work tomorrow evening, and we can do it.  What time zone are you in?

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Wallphone on April 19, 2010, 08:26:31 AM
Paul,  I missed it if you said what kind of service you were referring to. Here are two services that I found that seem to be owned by the same company. One or both have recording capabilities. I can't see how they make money yet so I don't know what the catch is. As they say, nothing is free.
> http://www.freeconferencecall.com/index.asp <
> http://www.freeconferencing.com/ <
What is everyone's opinion of these?
Dougpav
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 19, 2010, 12:44:40 PM
Doug;
Your links are very interesting, even offer free recording.
I agree I read over the ads, and the only thing I see are the banner ads. I'm sure they have hidden ways to get money, maybe they tap into the call and steal corporate secrets or get stock trading heads ups ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 19, 2010, 02:19:39 PM
Bill,

As posted earlier, I already opened an account at one of the services.  I'll contact you by email to conduct the test.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 19, 2010, 02:51:57 PM
Doug,

I believe the conference services get a small fee for providing the termination connection for all the long distance calls coming into the conference.  A convenient service generates lots of calls with lots of participants and many calls last for hours, so the fees add up.

That bring up a good point.  Paritcipants in the call pay any access charges to the conference service.  Those of us who have unlimited nationwide calling are in good shape, but others may want to check their long distance payment options.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 19, 2010, 03:05:45 PM
Paul;
We will use your conference link..
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on April 19, 2010, 09:09:46 PM
this is so exciting...kudos to you guys for figuring everything out. i just remembered, i do not subscribe to a  long distance plan on my POTS line. do they still sell those long distance calling cards & will it work for this deal ???
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 19, 2010, 09:36:04 PM
I just got off of the conference test call with Paul, and Bill.
Paul recorded a portion of the call, and let us hear it on playback, He said it's a wave file, so we can download it and listen at our leisure.
The call worked perfect.
D/P
 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 19, 2010, 09:52:01 PM
D/P:

Let us know time and date of conference call. I will dust off the 2-50 for this special occasion.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jester on April 19, 2010, 10:26:05 PM
Paul;



Every one should try to use their "coolest" phone for the call. Kenny should use his 1962 500, I am planning on using a 6-9-58 F-53115 transparent 500 set. A green 532 amplified set should get used(hint). You should use a phone that is significant to you or that you mentioned on the list, or that is a really oddball and cool set...
Jim,

Hint taken.  I'll do my best to have the 532 ready in time!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 19, 2010, 11:44:12 PM
Following up on Jim's suggestion, I've started a thread to post photos of the phones we'll be using during the conference call.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2534.0
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 20, 2010, 11:19:47 PM
Has anyone consider that dropping the 'Z' from the dial, was actually cutting the last link to the old style phones. That 'Z' was about the only thing that was from Old style phones. Could that possibly have been a factor in dropping the "Z'?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 21, 2010, 12:25:55 AM
Jim;
I'm all for your suggestions, I wouldn't have a clue how to co-ordinate all of that. But seriously WHATEVER time I need to hook up I will. Whether noon or 3 AM.

Was the Smithsonian comment tongue in cheek ? I can not even imagine something I have had contact with being in the Smithsonian.
D/P

Dan,
You can print a member list and highlight members that are planning to call. After the call starts you can do a "roll call" going down the list of highlighted names:



Regarding the Smithsonian, I didn't comment on the Smithsonian until I decided if the set was worthy. I think it is.

The Smithsonian is called the Nations attic. They collect all manner of things.  They have many historical telephones.
I am sure the Smithsonian has a black 500, the question is "how early is it?"
There is a good chance that they may have a 1949 early production set.

You should check with them and see, You may be able to pin down the date of your set better, if nothing else you can make them aware of your set.


If they have a 1949 early production set, they may even be willing to swap, that way you have your 1949 birthday year set, formerly of the Smithsonian.
Something to think about,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 21, 2010, 12:28:30 AM
Has anyone consider that dropping the 'Z' from the dial, was actually cutting the last link to the old style phones. That 'Z' was about the only thing that was from Old style phones. Could that possibly have been a factor in dropping the "Z'?
D/P
ISTR  that the reason stated for the change in the dial bezal had to do with cost reduction once they switched to injection molded dials.
This may of been in one of Paul & Russ's "early 500" set articles.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 21, 2010, 12:34:17 AM
Hey D/P,

You might find this interesting:
http://www.cooperhewitt.org/EXHIBITIONS/archive/hd/archive.html

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 21, 2010, 12:54:30 AM
Jim;
That is a very interesting site.
I sure they must have more documents pertaining to the 500. After all isn't it one of the designs Henry Dreyfus is best know for.

I have to get to work on finding a permanent home for this set. It is much to important for one person to have alone. It needs to be where people can see it.
Believe me that hurts to have to admit that.
It's like when you are a kid, and you catch a baby rabbit, you want to keep it, but you know you can't.
D/P
 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 21, 2010, 12:57:43 AM
Don't be in  a big hurry to get rid of it. It would get more appreciation by being shown at phone shows, than it would at many museums.

If you keep it around then it can be an ongoing research project.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 21, 2010, 01:00:38 AM
I was trying to post the webpages from my link.
Jim
It didn't work
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 21, 2010, 01:21:14 AM
Jim;
I was able to save them, I have them in a file. I saved them one section at a time. I clicked on Analysis, then file, save page as...
I had to change a couple numbers at 2 because they had duplicate page file numbers.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 21, 2010, 01:30:11 AM
I was able to save them as well, I was trying to post the image in the thread. Maybe someone can try a screen capture.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 21, 2010, 01:53:13 AM
Here are two of the relevant pages from the Cooper Hewitt Museum site.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 21, 2010, 02:16:48 AM
I contacted the Cooper Hewitt Museum in February 2005, while tracking down physical design models and field trial sets.  They were very helpful and offered to schedule a visit to view the material that was not on display.  After spending hours on the phone with reference librarians, it became clear that they couldn't locate (at the time) any of the models (wood, clay, plaster, plastic, etc.) that Don Genaro told us had been destroyed or discarded from the Dreyfuss store rooms.  Further, most of the museum's boxes of paper files contained drafts for Henry Dreyfuss' books and material on other clients.

The AT&T and Bell Labs documents were reported to be a small part of one box, including info on things like World's Fair exhibit interiors and facilities.  The most promising area included 2 folders containing 8 B&W photos and 76 color slides, a press kit and a few other documents.  I chose not to make a special trip based on what I heard and asked other collectors to check it out.  I haven't heard more about it since.

If anyone lives near or is visiting NYC, it would be interesting to get a first hand account of what's really there.  Perhaps they have a more thorough inventory of the materials by now.  It's worth another look.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 21, 2010, 11:30:38 AM
I've wondered about the removal of the "Z" also. 

It used to be that there were "ZEnith" prefixes provided to make certain calls that weren't local.  You'd be instructed to dial Operator and then request to be connected to the ZEnith number. 

I'm thinking that since ZEnith numbers weren't direct dial, there was no point in retaining the "Z" as a character.  Probably a decision made more out of sensibility than for distancing the 500 from previous models.

Maybe there is a coincidental bit of timing between when ZEnith numbers started being used and when the "Z" on the dial disappeared?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 21, 2010, 11:56:00 AM
I know the industry developed a standard for dial markings, and configuration. Can anyone explain why lettering starts at 2, and no letter Q.
What is industries fear of the number 1 ?
D/P
I know on the first televisions they had a channel 1, and that was eliminated, I can see the rational behind that, maybe they didn't want a station saying; "We are number 1".  Actually I think the number one was eliminated and allocated to another purpose, seems I heard a military reason.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: LarryInMichigan on April 21, 2010, 01:16:24 PM
D/P,

I expect that reason that no letters were associated with 1 had to do with exchange names.  Originally, phone numbers started with a two-digit exchange name like "JAckson".  Since no phone number could use a 1 in the first or second position, it would have been inappropriate to assign any letters to 1 (The same logic applies to 0).

The reason that' Q' was omitted was probably that there were only 8 digits for 26 (or 25) letters, so something had to be left out, and since no names used a 'Q' without a 'U', it made sense to omit 'Q'.

Larry
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 21, 2010, 01:28:54 PM
Larry;
What about Q-Tip... ::)
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 21, 2010, 03:05:07 PM
Hope no one objects, I made one small change to the phone.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on April 21, 2010, 03:07:10 PM
It's your phone -- you can have one clear plunger and one black one if you want -- and rotate the color combinations daily.  Have fun!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 21, 2010, 03:28:35 PM
Can I have some opinions on the Denise 'Neill photo.
firstly does anyone have a clear copy of the photo. By the time I screen capture from PDF, and copy and paste, It loses some.
Notice at #1, do the plungers appear to be flat topped.
Also at #2, the handset appears to have a very distinct Sharpe corner, at the ends, later examples seem very rounded at this point. Is this an early photo, or was it taken at the time of the article ?
D/P

I've added a better closeup. Without a doubt, flat topped like the colored 302's.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 21, 2010, 03:39:37 PM
D/P, it might just be the quality of the photo re: the way the handset looks.  Excepting for the fact that the receiver cap looks normal, the cap for the transmitter appears to have a ridge all the way around it where it meets up with the handset, as if it's oversized.  Maybe whatever is making the transmitter cap look weird is doing likewise with the handset spine.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 21, 2010, 07:54:41 PM
I've modified a set of clear plungers to replicate the photo as close as possible.
D/P

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 21, 2010, 10:00:37 PM
Now all you need is a wild hair-do and a shirt with polka-dot cuffs and collar.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 21, 2010, 10:20:10 PM
Now all you need is a wild hair-do and a shirt with polka-dot cuffs and collar.




Anyone have a polka dot cuffed shirt ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on April 21, 2010, 10:46:49 PM
Good job on the clear plungers, it certainly is a documented feature.  And how exactly did you get them flat on top?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 22, 2010, 12:20:41 AM
I ruined 1 plunger trying to turn it down in a lathe. they are made out of a plexiglas type material that is like Glass, as soon as the cutting tool touched it, pieces starting  flying off.
The next one I used my stationary belt sander, then sand papered it smooth, then Novus.
I had to bend the line switch levers up to get the same height as in the photo.
that slight bend also eliminated a problem, Every time I removed the shell, it caught on the horizontal levers. Now it doesn't.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on April 22, 2010, 12:21:50 AM
is that realy you
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 22, 2010, 12:31:30 AM
It was, the last time I looked in the mirror.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on April 22, 2010, 12:56:29 AM
Kenny:

That is indeed D/P, after watching the snow fall early in the morning, pondering whether to work in his one-of-a-kind 1948 WE500 prototype, tinker with an 8T dial, or check if finlover is still in the forum. God Bless his soul; the man really knows how to multitask.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on April 22, 2010, 05:44:21 AM
You do look deep in thought D/P.  I've seen pics of you before, but it still kind of puts me through a loop.  You look nothing like I picture while I read your posts (if that makes any sense) you look like a heck of a tough guy though!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on April 22, 2010, 08:57:35 AM
Dan, now you've scared the young man! :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on April 22, 2010, 10:02:35 AM
When I think of Dan/P, I think he looks like this

http://tinyurl.com/2fd8rs3
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 22, 2010, 12:22:29 PM
Tom;
What do they say; "I'm not bad. but the bad don't mess with me."

Dan;
This is about the best I can do.
Why do Moms do that to their kids, is it revenge for when they get older, and can embarrass them in front of their friends ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on April 22, 2010, 02:41:51 PM
I am sorry if I offended you D/P I just had a different picture of you in my head
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 22, 2010, 07:57:44 PM
Kennyc1955;
I've developed a thick skin, to go along with my thick skull, you didn't offend me.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AtomicEraTom on April 23, 2010, 04:51:29 AM
Well heck, I'm calling you D/P if I ever get in a fight, they're gonna take one look atcha and know you can deliver 'em a butt woopin! 

I'm sorry I can't be part of the conference call.  I'll sadly be at work :(
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on April 23, 2010, 11:14:48 AM
I'm sorry I can't be part of the conference call.  I'll sadly be at work :(

Not to worry.  It is being recorded.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on April 23, 2010, 01:38:59 PM
Kenny, check out this thread:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=810.0

You'll find a very different looking D/P there.  Along with pix of other members.  I think I might pull up this thread while on the conference call to match faces with names.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dennis Markham on April 23, 2010, 02:32:06 PM
I split the topic about the conference call, giving it it's own location.  It can be seen here:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2554.0
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Brinybay on April 24, 2010, 12:54:32 AM
I was not the only one that saw it's potential, 130 people viewed the auction.
D/P

How do you tell how many are viewing?  I looked around on my watch list and also one item I'm bidding on, and I can't find the number of people viewing.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 24, 2010, 02:07:08 AM
At the bottom of an auction listing, there is usually a number that reflects how many time the auction has been viewed.

Dennis;
I didn't realize just my photo would do that I thought you had to be in person.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Brinybay on April 24, 2010, 02:26:25 AM
I went back and did a quick review of this thread to catch up, mostly looking at your pictures of the restoration progress.  I also looked at the bid history to see what the starting price was, $4.99.  I bet the seller was tickled about the final price.  Just goes to show you, one man's junk is another man's treasure.  At least the seller was savvy enough to put it up for sale instead of tossing it.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 24, 2010, 01:07:30 PM
Hope no one objects, I made one small change to the phone.

D/P
Dan,
I was leaning towards clear plungers being "proper".
It does appear that the ones in the photo are flat toped, which makes them more likely to be "as installed"

Regarding the handset. I have studied the photo and compared it with an early handset. The handset in the photo appears to be slightly different than a standard "g".

  It looks like you may be able to get the same effect by adding a thin layer of material to the "spine" of the handset.
It was probably "thinned" for cost savings and/or a more comfortable "fit" to smaller hands.

JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on April 24, 2010, 01:46:51 PM
Jim;
So you also see a slight difference between the as issued handset, and the one shown in the photo ? I tried to duplicate the effect using a standard 500 handset, but could not get the ridge I see in the photo.
Ralph suggested that it may be camera or angle distortion, which is I guess still possible, as other parts don't appear as correct.

The plungers, look like the photo then right, flat topped ?

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on April 24, 2010, 02:21:28 PM
Jim;
So you also see a slight difference between the as issued handset, and the one shown in the photo ? I tried to duplicate the effect using a standard 500 handset, but could not get the ridge I see in the photo.
Ralph suggested that it may be camera or angle distortion, which is I guess still possible, as other parts don't appear as correct.

The plungers, look like the photo then right, flat topped ?

D/P

Dan,
The  plungers appear flattop in the photo you posted. The "screwed foot" ad also looked like flat top plungers but it was hard to tell.
I think flat top clear plungers are proper.

If you take a g handset and build up the "footprint" of the spine with a couple of layers of thin cardboard. I think you will see the same visual effect on the handset.

 It looks like the spine is a bit raised on the photo. I say this because of the apperance of the spine vs the transmitter "cup"

If you try cardboard  and it works, then you could always experiment with "thickening" the handset with a piece of thin plastic.


It may be possible to find this handset in someone's parts box,
I am thinking there is a good chance it is unmarked.

Have you tried examining the G proto-types handset photo?
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: zuperdee on April 26, 2010, 07:53:25 PM
Wow, I finally read through this thread... What a story!

As for the comments about the simplicity of the dial design in this phone though: I still think the Automatic Electric dial design is simpler, more elegant, and more compact than ANY of the Western Electric dial designs, including this one. That said, the Western Electric dials do have better dust protection, and I'm guessing it may be for this reason that it seems like I've found more sticky A.E. dials than sticky W.E. dials.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan on April 26, 2010, 09:56:33 PM
I think early AE80's in soft plastic are better built too, except the dials.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HobieSport on May 03, 2010, 05:24:55 PM
I'm way late to comment on this great thread, because I've been mostly off the internet for the past four months and have only visited the forum twice in that time, but yesterday we finally got our new internet connection, and this was the first thread that really "grabbed" me.  Needless to say I haven't read the entire thread, but I skimmed over it, and I just want to say how really glad I am for you Dan/P that you found the 500 prototype, and had the wisdom and insight to bid on it, and how you are now sharing the adventure with us all. And here we were all looking for a '49 500, and you seem so have found a 1948! That is sooo waaay coool.  (Understatement of the year.)

I don't have any real words of wisdom to contribute to the discussion, but as I was reading parts of the thread, I remembered this old wrinkled Western Electric advert that I have, and whenever I see it, I can't but help but think of Dan/Panther, born in '49.  So here's a  photo of of the ad. Sorry about the poor image quality, as my scanner isn't working, but if you click on the photo to magnify it, at least it's readable. (And I made it a gray scale image to keep the file small, like a good little boy...)

Anyway, I just wanted to say...Thanks and a Big Congratulations to Dan the Panther!

-Matt

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 03, 2010, 05:45:02 PM
Matt;
Glad to hear from you, don't be stranger.
It really has been an adventure and one I feel I've had much company on.
As of yet we haven't determined the year exactly, only speculation based on what we know, which turns out isn't much.
We still need the drawing for the first run of production models or a drawing of one of the field Test sets, that would really help nail it down.
BTW, Donna has graciously offered to help document this in the form of a booklet.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 03, 2010, 05:53:25 PM
In my mind it is a 1948 or older.
I think it is safe to call it a pre-production set.

JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HobieSport on May 03, 2010, 06:03:03 PM
Quote from: Dan/Panther
Matt;
Glad to hear from you, don't be stranger.
It really has been an adventure and one I feel I've had much company on.
As of yet we haven't determined the year exactly, only speculation based on what we know, which turns out isn't much.
We still need the drawing for the first run of production models or a drawing of one of the field Test sets, that would really help nail it down.
BTW, Donna has graciously offered to help document this in the form of a booklet.
D/P

Hi Dan,

I didn't mean to be a stranger, just that I didn't have an internet connection for several months. The two things I missed the most not having internet was just not being able to email my dear sister regularly, and especially not being on the phone forum for about four months. The withdrawal symptoms were terrible (hee hee) but I lived through it and now I'm back, and it was certainly a nice surprise to discover your find of the 500, and I'm very glad that you and Donna are documenting it.

I look forward to the continuation of "the story of the 500 being told", as hopefully you and others can maybe eventually pin down the possible actual dates of the phone. I think that I have read that the 500 was in development for about four years with Henry Dreyfuss and all the rest, since 1946, so of course right after WWll. I think I have some quotes about that from my biography about Henry Dreyfuss, with I will look up later and quote them on this thread.

Anyway, thanks for sharing this adventure!

-Matt
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 03, 2010, 06:10:11 PM
Quote from: Dan/Panther
Matt;
Glad to hear from you, don't be stranger.
It really has been an adventure and one I feel I've had much company on.
As of yet we haven't determined the year exactly, only speculation based on what we know, which turns out isn't much.
We still need the drawing for the first run of production models or a drawing of one of the field Test sets, that would really help nail it down.
BTW, Donna has graciously offered to help document this in the form of a booklet.
D/P
I think that I have read that the 500 was in development for about four years with Henry Dreyfuss and all the rest, since 1946, so of course right after WWll. I think I have some quotes about that from my biography about Henry Dreyfuss, with I will look up later and quote them on this thread.

Anyway, thanks for sharing this adventure!

-Matt
Matt,
That is some new info, Bring it on.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on May 05, 2010, 12:41:05 AM
Jim,

The Dreyfuss account of the development of the 500 set can be found in his book, Designing for People and several other sources.

The reference is on the site here:
   http://www.paul-f.com/weproto.html#500

In part:
1946 - Henry Dreyfuss' firm began work on the 500 external design.  Effort led by Robert Hose.

Some 2500 sketches were made.  Handsets were primarily modeled in wood, while bases were initially in clay and the most promising cast in plaster and lacquered.
 
  (References: Designing for People, Henry Dreyfuss, Simon and Schuster, 1955; Designing the Telephone, Bell Telephone Magazine, Summer 1955; Henry Dreyfuss, Industrial Designer: The Man in the Brown Suit, Russell Flinchum, Rizzoli, 1977;  A Conversation with Donald Genaro, Singing Wires, Vol 18, No 10, Oct 2004.)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Tonyrotary on May 05, 2010, 01:15:15 AM
Oh Wow! I cannot believe I overlooked this thread! A prototype 500! Way to go D/P! Guess you win the who has the earliest 500. :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HobieSport on May 05, 2010, 07:07:31 AM
Hi Jim S.

I recently wrote on this thread that:

"I think that I have read that the 500 was in development for about four years with Henry Dreyfuss and all the rest, since 1946, so of course right after WWll. I think I have some quotes about that from my biography about Henry Dreyfuss, with I will look up later and quote them on this thread."

(As if I knew what I was talking about...)

And you wrote:

"That is some new info, Bring it on."

So, I just looked it up in the Henry Dreyfuss biography, and it's too much small print for me to re-quote here, but the book is:

Henry Dreyfuss
Industrial Designer
The Man in the Brown Suit
by Russell Flinchum
published 1997 by the Smithsonian
ISBN# 0-8478-2010-6

The pages in the book about the Dreyfuss telephones are from pages 96 to 105. There are also some enticing photos. Just before the pages describing the Dreyfuss telephones are pages about the prefab houses that Henry helped design, as well as the Dreyfuss flying car. (Did I just hear McHeath's ears move?)

It's a good book and I recommend it. It's a perfect companion to Henry Dreyfuss' own book; "Designing For People".

Anyway, there might be some photos and info in those pages that may be pertinent to the present discussion about Dan/Panther's very early 500. But I just can't  quote it all here. I would scan the few pages of small text and big pictures and would and would post it here. But my scanner is almost as old and ugly as I am, in computer years...

-Matt

And please remember that I am very much an amateur about telephones.

I just know some good books.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 05, 2010, 12:49:59 PM
Matt;
We have accumulated so much information it will take time to sort and organize. Donna is doing a great job at that. I keep throwing a monkey wrench into her works trying to help.
I still get chills when i look over at the phone.
I've recently acquired an early Straight handset cord,  I hope it looks as good in person as it did in the photos, I can't wait to add one more original part to the set.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HobieSport on May 05, 2010, 01:23:34 PM
Gee, I wouldn't want a Dan/Panther monkey wrench thrown at my works. ;D

So, have you attempted to contact a curator at the Smithsonian where the other early 500 set is kept?  I was just wondering if they might be interested. Maybe even help research your set? Just a thought, since your set seems to be older than the one in the museum.  :o
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HobieSport on May 05, 2010, 02:08:07 PM
Since my scanner isn't working, I just photographed the pages about the 500 from the Henry Dreyfuss biography. Sorry about the poor image quality, but if you click to enlarge the images the text is readable.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HobieSport on May 05, 2010, 02:09:45 PM
...and three more pics from the book.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 05, 2010, 02:34:05 PM
Matt;
Thanks, I have got to get those books.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HobieSport on May 05, 2010, 03:51:43 PM
Quote from: Dan/Panther
Matt;
Thanks, I have got to get those books.
D/P

They really are good books. My younger step son is in college in industrial design, and when I offered to give him the books (after I read them three times), he wasn't interested. I tried to explain that they were really very interesting, about the birth and "golden age" of industrial design, but he still wasn't interested. Kid's these days... ;)

The book "Designing For People" by Dreyfuss is online here:

http://tinyurl.com/2fjj7nr

And here is the Dreyfuss biography, but it's an expensive book and I haven't found it online to read:

http://tinyurl.com/2evsc7z

-Matt
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on May 05, 2010, 06:54:01 PM
hobiematt...sure is good to "see" you again. this is great info. these look like a couple of great books to have.

i was of the mind that d/p's set is a 48 field trial. now i am wondering if it is in fact an early production set from 1949 ???

why?...the aiming dots. the phone in matt's photo says it is a 1949, yet it does not have the aiming dots. also, difficult to tell, but that finger wheel looks plastic to me. this leads me to believe the aiming dots were not added until 1949 & dan's phone does have the aiming dots!

matt, can you take a magnifying glass to look at the photo & compare the fingerstop to the fingerstop from dan's phone?


d/p....i just keep moving that wrench out of my way :P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on May 05, 2010, 10:41:19 PM
Well now we have pictorial evidence that there was at least one 500 assembled without the aiming dots.

I'm still inclined to think that D/Ps is a 1948 pre-production model, based on the documentation we have from the patents.  The picture in the book is second hand evidence, and books written long after the fact often get details wrong, which is what I believe happened here with them calling the phone in the picture a 1949 model.

Now, where has that phone without the aiming dots gotten to?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 05, 2010, 11:09:57 PM
If the truth be known, those photos are most likely staged re-enactments and not even the original players. Notice they only show hands, and a man in a double breasted suit, could be anyone.
My guess is the phone is a mock up.
I still want to get those books.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 06, 2010, 12:34:39 AM
Matt;
Thanks, I have got to get those books.
D/P

Designing the telephone chapter 7 Abbreviated version, Bell Telephone magazine.

http://www.archive.org/stream/bellvol3334telephonemag00amerrich#page/n463/mode/1up

Page counter 464

Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 06, 2010, 12:52:06 AM
Jim,

The Dreyfuss account of the development of the 500 set can be found in his book, Designing for People and several other sources.

The reference is on the site here:
   http://www.paul-f.com/weproto.html#500

In part:
1946 - Henry Dreyfuss' firm began work on the 500 external design.  Effort led by Robert Hose.

Some 2500 sketches were made.  Handsets were primarily modeled in wood, while bases were initially in clay and the most promising cast in plaster and lacquered.
 
  (References: Designing for People, Henry Dreyfuss, Simon and Schuster, 1955; Designing the Telephone, Bell Telephone Magazine, Summer 1955; Henry Dreyfuss, Industrial Designer: The Man in the Brown Suit, Russell Flinchum, Rizzoli, 1977;  A Conversation with Donald Genaro, Singing Wires, Vol 18, No 10, Oct 2004.)

Thanks Paul,
I guess I never had read the Dreyfuss Referance info. I recall see the referances cited, but I never tried to locate any of it (before).
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 06, 2010, 12:53:39 AM
Matt,
Thanks for posting the photos of the pages.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HobieSport on May 06, 2010, 03:16:09 PM
Quote from: Dan/Panther
...those photos are most likely staged re-enactments and not even the original players. Notice they only show hands, and a man in a double breasted suit, could be anyone. My guess is the phone is a mock up.
D/P

Yes, the photo in the book of the (maybe) '49 500 without the aiming dots certainly does looked staged, and as the caption says, it was a publicity photo.

Bwanna, I looked at the fingerstop on the photo in the book as you asked with a magnifying  glass and it does indeed look to me like the same as D/P's, in shape at least.

BTW, I'm really vicariously enjoying this whole epic episode of discovery along with D/P and I guess most others in the forum. In a way, I'm almost glad that there are no dates on the phone (though that may sound stupid) because it forces us to try to solve the mysteries by using whatever evidence we can find from, what, 54 years ago? I love a good mystery... 8)

Can someone tell me more about the '49 500 in the Smithsonian? Is it depicted or written about somewhere online?

-Matt
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on May 06, 2010, 08:48:46 PM
hobie, i'm afraid i have to disagree, but thank you for looking & for posting a closer view of the phone. dan's fingerstop has kind of a swoop to it. where the one in the pic looks more squared off, like on later models.

sooooooo...what does this tell us ???
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 06, 2010, 09:28:28 PM
I have been on the Smithsonian site and emailed requesting any information that they may have in their archives including any photos. No response yet.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on May 06, 2010, 09:42:57 PM
sooooooo...what does this tell us ???

I dunno, but.....

I measured my earlier #2, #4, #5 and #6 dial fingerstops with a caliper.  From an exacting standpoint, they are all over the board, but the thickness of the earlier dials seem to mostly be about .25 inches, give or take a few hundredths.  The attached photo is of my 1951 500 with the #7 dial, which measures in at about .32" and is visibly a little thicker than the earlier dial fingerstops.  I have also noticed that the earlier fingerstops seemed to have a deeper "swoop" to them and the later ones that have the thicker support have the more flat "swoop"  I also see that on the ones with the deeper swoop and the thinner support, the overall thickness of the fingerstop is thinner.  Maybe the earlier ones were more prone to getting bent up and either causing people to hurt their fingers, or breaking off entirely.  This may have been Bell's way of strengthening the finger stop in order to make it better.  Either that or they knew a yet to be formed sneaker manufacturer would someday want to claim trademark rights on the swoop.

Here is the photo of where I took the measurements.  It wold be interesting if Dan could haul out his caliper and check out his finger stop.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HobieSport on May 06, 2010, 10:17:59 PM
Also remember that during the development of the 500 in general they where experimenting with very fine increments and very sight subtle changes.

So while the fingerstop on D/P's phone may look the same to me, as whatever it is that is that is pictured in the book, with my untrained eye, it could very well have changed.

I think measuring with precise calipers is a good idea.

Please remember that I don't have the slightest idea what I am talking about.

There, I said it.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 06, 2010, 11:17:32 PM
Bill;l
I got out my trusty calipers and measured the spine of the fingers stop at the same location you did.
I get about .318 Thousandths, or just about what you got.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HobieSport on May 06, 2010, 11:38:36 PM
I love precision...
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HobieSport on May 07, 2010, 05:03:40 PM
Quote from: bwanna
hobie, i'm afraid i have to disagree, but thank you for looking & for posting a closer view of the phone. dan's fingerstop has kind of a swoop to it. where the one in the pic looks more squared off, like on later models.
sooooooo...what does this tell us ???

Thanks Bwanna, I can sort of see it now that you pointed it out. Please never be "afraid" to disagree, especially with me! I am only an amateur, and sometimes my eyes don't always recognize the very subtle differences.

My only point is that during the developmental stages of the WE 500 (1946-1950?) that they were experimenting with all kinds of very subtle precise testing and changes in ergonomic shapes and angles in all the components. So that's why I am glad that precision calipers are now involved with our studies.

In my meager mind, dear Bwanna and Dan/Panther, the development of the WE 500 was one of the most important industrial designs in all of twentieth century history. I will again quote Henry Dreyfuss here in order to attempt to make a point:

"Of all the magic of modern civilization, the telephone seems to me the most wondrous achievement..."  -Henry Dreyfuss

Personally, I also wish that Henry's design work in the late 1940s and 1950's in industrial housing after world war two had worked better. I was and am still a frustrated industrial designer before I was born.  It seemed natural to me that after WWll, that the war industry could just be retooled a little bit to manufacture some decent homes for those people who had survived the war.

We had some huge covered factories after WWll which I wish has been used to manufacture homes for the men and women and children after WWll. Henry Dreyfuss tried to do that, and one of his attempts at manufactured housing was recently found.

But my modest and very possibly inaccurate guess that when the "building trades" working folks heard about inexpensive efficient houses being built, in factories, that the workers might be afraid of being "exploited" and out of a traditional home building job. It is my contention that that wasn't the case.

Please keep in mind that I am neither a "capitalist" nor a "communist".

And there is a reason why I now enjoy living in a "trailer", so well build in 1954.

And I wasn't even born until 1957.

Go figure.

Love,

-Matt


Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 07, 2010, 07:45:25 PM
Matt;
Like I posted in another thread, From my phone to the production phone, NOT ONE SINGLE COMPONENT REMAINED THE SAME. So you are correct they tweaked it a lot.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 09, 2010, 01:25:06 AM
Could someone help me get my head around a statement Henry Dreyfuss made in his book "Designing for People".
When he is obviously attempting to show how much the production of the 500 increased over the years, WHY did he choose to use the 1950 production figure, in lieu of the 1949 figure, which would have made his statement even more profound.
Note the wording he uses, "Initial Shipment". No matter how you slice it, "initial" means "first"....He doesn't say; the "Initial mass shipment", he says; "initial shipment"... which I would interpret as being the "first". Are we absolutely sure that the 1949-500's were production phones, for consumers, or were they tests, that were later removed from service, to be followed by the INITIAL SHIPMENT in 1950 ???
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Brinybay on May 09, 2010, 01:35:52 AM
Could someone help me get my head around a statement Henry Dreyfuss made in his book "Designing for People".
When he is obviously attempting to show how much the production of the 500 increased over the years, WHY did he choose to use the 1950 production figure, in lieu of the 1949 figure, which would have made his statement even more profound.
Note the wording he uses, "Initial Shipment". No matter how you slice it, "initial" means "first"....He doesn't say; the "Initial mass shipment", he says; "initial shipment"... which I would interpret as being the "first". Are we absolutely sure that the 1949-500's were production phones, for consumers, or were they tests, that were later removed from service, to be followed by the INITIAL SHIPMENT in 1950 ???
D/P

Could it be that they were first manufactured in 49, with 49 dates, but not shipped until 50?  I wouldn't be surprised at all if execs held up the initial shipment of 49s until 1950 for a reason.  I've worked in warehouses where new products were held up and sat around for months because some exec was holding up the show for whatever reasons.  Just a guess.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 09, 2010, 02:03:29 AM
I think Intial shipment refers to the intial system-wide shipment of subscriber sets,

 This shipment would also tie in with articles and advertisements in consumer publications.

If you think about it, each truckload is a "shipment", I think he was refering to the intial stocking order system-wide, as the intial shipment.


1950 was the first FULL production year of the set. this # shows how many the were able to produce in the 1st calendar year.

the 50 1948 pre-production sets were rounded up and sent back out for more field trials.
The 1949 early production sets were installed as field trial sets, however I think they stayed where they were installed, and the subscriber just answered questions regarding their opinions of the 500 set. Some of these phones may actually still be installed and working at their original location.


Regarding the changes from Dan's phone to the production models.

Most of the changes are minor and were probably the result of gearing up for large scale production runs. These changes probably saved  time and/or material.

I did read that the change in the dial bezel was because of injection molded dial bezels. The origanal dial face was to costly to produce using the injection process.

JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on May 09, 2010, 10:33:22 AM
dan, i have been trying to "get my head around" this information also.

paul f refers to the 1948 as field trial of pre-production sets (50 of them)

 1949's as field trial of early production sets/ 4000 distributed in 10 locations.

in 1949 the new 500 was announced. june of 1950 the first supply was announced.

the way i read this is that in 1949 bell said the 500 set would be out soon. then in 1950 production of the first batch was complete & ready for distribution.

are we assuming (possibly erroneously) that all of the 4000 '49 field trial early production sets were the same? they were distributed in 10 markets. could the sets in each market been different? 

it's the dots & the "0" position on the dial ring that bring this question to my mind. the changes to the dial ring were made during the development process.

d/p's phone has all the early internal components, the early "0" configuration. but it has the aiming dots which were added later. the '49's were also field trials, so could have been marked "return to bell labs"

i seriously think there may have been 10 different configurations of the 500 in 1949. and dan has one of them.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 09, 2010, 01:19:34 PM
I just wish we could run across some significant document to lay this to rest.
Like Bwanna points out 4000 sets distributed to 10 locations reeks of a test.
My personal feeling is that we are confusing a November 49 announcement of soon to be released 500's, was actually announcing the 86,000, 1950 models. I don't base this on documented facts, only a gut feeling.

Jim;
The only flaw I see in your explanation, is the original discrepancy I pointed out in Henry's statement, He was trying to show how much the production had increased over the years, and he omitted the one fact that would have profoundly made his point.

I would be MUCH MORE IMPRESSED, by a figure growing from an initial shipment of 4000 to 7,000,000, rather than 86,000 to 7,000,000. The latter seems to pale in comparison to the former statement.

I have a problem with the fact that we have an almost intact example of a 1948 Pre-Production 500, of which maybe 50 were produced, YET we only have one single Dial (Paul's) remaining of what is pro-ported to be a production run of 4000... That does not compute as being logical.

I'm sure by now that whomever it is that claims to have a 49-500, has read or at least heard of this find by now.
I challenge that person to at least produce an anonymous photo of the alleged 49-500, or I must assume that one doesn't exist.

I've contacted the Smithsonian, inquiring about their 49-500, and have not received a response.

In light of the fact that a pre 49-500 has been uncovered I think it's time we have some proof of a 49-500, other than one single dial.
The set I have was uncovered purely by accident, yet collectors have been aggressively seeking the illusive 49-500 for quite some time and nothing, just doesn't make good sense.

The reason I keep kicking this point around is this.

If in fact their are 4000, 49-500 out there someplace, makes my find significant in the fact that it's predates the 49's, and is a great link from design to production, BUT if the 4000 do not exist, that makes my find almost astronomical in significance.

I think we really need to up the heat on the documentation of 49-500 sets in private hands.

D/P
 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on May 09, 2010, 01:53:10 PM
dan i so agree......would somebody, somewhere, please come out of the woodwork with an example of/ information on 1948 & 1949 model 500 sets.

i am still convinced that your phone is a 1949 for two prime reasons. the presence of the dots on the dial face. & there were only 50 '48 models ....4000 '49's. higher odds of finding a '49.

JMHO  (& fervent wish that dan has his BIRTHDAY PHONE)

BTW....we really need some exact documentation for our book! i don't want to have to end it....."not sure what we have here, but it's really cool" :o
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 09, 2010, 02:05:07 PM
Donna;
You know this kind of thinking is going to be very harshly accepted, and many will vehemently disagree with our position., maybe rightfully so, however it's time to .....or get of the pot.
I have no proof of my gut feelings, but my gut feeling is as valid as any other gut feeling.
I have produced what I claimed to have found, now it's others turn to produce proof of their claims, or we must discount their claims, as alleged, or hearsay.
Boy that should fire someone up.
Our research efforts are at a standstill, and yet we have claims of links that would go a long ways to finalization of our goals. It just doesn't seem right for a small portion to have exclusive knowledge if a significant link.
Come on people produce......
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 09, 2010, 03:03:15 PM
The following are OPINIONS that I have regarding these subjects. My opinions are based on information and observations of the Bell System.


Regarding aiming dots.  I think the dial testing was done inhouse on dials for the most part. I don't think the dialing tests were part of the field trial.

If they were  part of the field trial tests, then they were probably done with the 50 1948 pre-production sets. These same sets were used repeatedly for field trials. The bezel change was probably done after the first few rounds of testing.

There is a document on TT configuration testing. It explains how users dialing speed was tested. They used pen registers (Which "officially don't exsist) as part of the test equitment.

There are a lot of rules pertaining to the exsistance, maintanence use and transport of Pen registers. I doubt if they would use them for testing instruments outside of Bell Labs.

I think the phone in the Dreyfuss book is a plaster model.

Regarding "Intial shipment" The 1950 # represents the first "production" sets.

The pre-production sets were used for field trial.
The Early-Production sets were made to test the manufacturing process. They were also field trialed to gain insight on customer acceptance and opinion.

1950 sets were the actual Finished product, avaliable throughout the Bell System.

Regarding Dreyfuss's statements. He was a design guy (engineer?). He worked for a design and marketing firm.

The figures qouted cast the best picture of the set, from the client standpoint.

If you use the 4,000 figure, it appears that production was low or there was a subscriber reluctance to the new set.

If you (rightly*) use the 1950 figure. It shows how much production increased based on a calendar year.


* Rightly, it wasn't until 1950 that the 500 set was avaliable throughout the Bell system. I feel it is "right and Proper" to use the full production and availability year for the intial shipment  figures.

I would trust in-house Bell Lab Engineer statements as "fact-as-written".
Marketing info I try to read between the lines. This pertains to any of the info written for the subscriber.

Written statements are always written for a "target" audience. If your audience are enginneers you try to be precise, If your audience is a layman, you write in a manner that gets the point across and makes a "good showing" of your client.

The dreyfuss book was written with the layman and students as the target audience.  Using the 1950 figures you get the concept across without bringing up the questions of low production in 1949.

The aiming dots came up in some  period articles, so it gets mentioned in the book. I beleive the photo is a plaster model and the "shot" is staged. They probably brought out a sans-dot model for the shot because, the aiming dot tidbit was out there.

JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on May 09, 2010, 03:26:55 PM
dan i so agree......would somebody, somewhere, please come out of the woodwork with an example of/ information on 1948 & 1949 model 500 sets.....
! i don't want to have to end it....."not sure what we have here, but it's really cool" :o

Given the fact that there are no dates on the phone or its pieces, until there is a document that somehow surfaces from Bell Labs that shows the D-XXXXX numbers and when they were used and for what purpose, we (the collective we) will probably never know.  Otherwise all we are left with is opinion and speculation.  Then it will become a matter of who makes the biggest points in supporting their opinion or who makes the most noise about it.  :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 09, 2010, 03:50:08 PM
It is my opinion that Job shop parts aren't dated, but production line parts are.

The early production sets are from production lines.

The d# parts are from the job shop.
JMO,
JIm
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 09, 2010, 04:01:43 PM
I feel my set is a pre-production Field Trial set from 1948. But I sure would like to compare the internal works against a known 49-500. That is why I would like to put pressure on the collector that claims to have one. How can submitting photos anonymously to a third party like Paul for posting possibly create a situation where the phone may be in jeopardy.
Come on folks if you have one, which I doubt, let us see it.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 09, 2010, 04:20:36 PM
I feel my set is a pre-production Field Trial set from 1948. But I sure would like to compare the internal works against a known 49-500. That is why I would like to put pressure on the collector that claims to have one. How can submitting photos anonymously to a third party like Paul for posting possibly create a situation where the phone may be in jeopardy.
Come on folks if you have one, which I doubt, let us see it.
D/P

I beleive the set is out there.
I beleive the owner isn't on this forum.
I beleive that Paul F. is probably the only person they would send the photos to.

I suggest that you post your request on both of the listservers.
The TCI list is open and the ATCA list is closed, but you can join the ATCA since you are a member. I assume you have already joined the ATCA listserver.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Russ Kirk on May 09, 2010, 04:58:51 PM
Quote : The TCI list is open and the ATCA list is closed

Maybe it is me but I don't understand,  but both clubs forums are still active on Yahoo groups.  

ATCA
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atcaclub/  

TCI
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/singingwires/

Granted 90%+ of the postings are at the TCI Yahoo group.

Yes,  we all should be members of all the groups.
Frankly, I like this one the best - no offense to the other groups.

As for your wonderful and unique find, IMHO you have a 1948 prototype,
That is until anyone can come up documented proof to the contrary this it is not a 1949 item.  
Either way it is a truly historic item.  
I believe if there is anyone that would have documents proving one way or the other would, they belong to one of these 3 fine groups.

That is, sadly, unless they have passed on.
After 60+ years that is a possibility.

At one time in this thread someone mentioned about contacting the Smithsonian about this instrument.
I think that would be an excellent thing to do, they might have some data or contacts to add.....

I have yet to see any postings about this instrument on the TCI or ATCA  Yahoo groups.    
Maybe when that occurs someone will come out of the woodwork with information about their 1948 or 1949 instrument.  

Who knows, maybe someone has one sitting dusty on the shelf,  not looked at for years.  
Only to find there is someone else out there with a historical item like yours.
I know,  I immediately checked mine!

Let everyone know of your find,  have an article of the find and EXCELLENT restoration posted in the newsletters of both clubs.  

Russ.......

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 09, 2010, 05:07:26 PM
Quote : The TCI list is open and the ATCA list is closed

Maybe it is me but I don't understand,  but both clubs forums are still active on Yahoo groups.  

ATCA
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atcaclub/  

TCI
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/singingwires/

Granted 90%+ of the postings are at the TCI Yahoo group.

Yes,  we all should be members of all the groups.
Frankly, I like this one the best - no offense to the other groups.

As for your wonderful and unique find, IMHO you have a 1948 prototype,
That is until anyone can come up documented proof to the contrary this it is not a 1949 item.  
Either way it is a truly historic item.  
I believe if there is anyone that would have documents proving one way or the other would, they belong to one of these 3 fine groups.

That is, sadly, unless they have passed on.
After 60+ years that is a possibility.

At one time in this thread someone mentioned about contacting the Smithsonian about this instrument.
I think that would be an excellent thing to do, they might have some data or contacts to add.....

I have yet to see any postings about this instrument on the TCI or ATCA  Yahoo groups.    
Maybe when that occurs someone will come out of the woodwork with information about their 1948 or 1949 instrument.  

Who knows, maybe someone has one sitting dusty on the shelf,  not looked at for years.  
Only to find there is someone else out there with a historical item like yours.
I know,  I immediately checked mine!

Let everyone know of your find,  have an article of the find and EXCELLENT restoration posted in the newsletters of both clubs.  

Russ.......


Russ,
The Yahoo ATCA group is an open ATCA@ list. It was started september 11 or 12 2001, The main list went down so Chuck created the ATCA#2 list. Is has been kept as an open list but not much info passes thru it.

I did request info from the main atca list and TCI list.
We will see what happens.
Jim

BTW Welcome to the forum, I don't think I have welcomed you yet.  We have had (good) dealings in the past.
Good collecting,
Jim Stettler
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 09, 2010, 06:49:17 PM
I have a sneaky suspicion that people are misinterpreting what the intended meaning was of  the press release dated April 1951....

Several sources confirm the report
in the April 1951 Bell System Technical
Journal, that the 1948 field trial with
50 pre-production sets used by 300 persons
was followed by a larger trial using
“the first four thousand production
sets in November 1949.

It doesn't say that the first 4000 were dated 1949, it says they would be distributed in November of 1949 as a Larger TRIAL....after the initial trial of 50 Pre-production sets (Like mine)
I think it is possible that the first 4000 sets manufactured, and INTENDED for release in 1950, along with the additional 82,000 sets dated 1950. Just because they were made in 1949, does not mean they were dated 1949, just like car manufacturers, they release the new model in September, but are dated the next calender year.
I think the 4000 sets referred to were the first 4000, of the 86,000, to be distributed in late 1950 as 1950 sets. They started production in the latter part of 1949, with 1950 dates, the first 4000 were distributed as a trial.

JMHO;
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 09, 2010, 06:58:21 PM
I think that the production dates you find on phones are when the were produced.
My  1965 mustang was a birthday car from September 13 1964. It was a '65 vs 64-1/2. This was because model years in 1965 started in Septyember.


I concour that the November '49 sets may of been part of the 1950 run.  This is because there are earlier dated 1949 components that have been shown. These earlier dated components are probably from early-production sets.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: bwanna on May 09, 2010, 07:15:59 PM
ok, jim.....you have dashed my hopes, but i get it now.

it did not occur to me that the 50 pre production sets would be brought back to the lab, modified, then sent out again.

of course, the term "early production" itself indicates these models would be all the same. production....production line.....duh.

i must have missed this somewhere, but who has the phone pictured on paul f's site with the "birthday dated" dial. ???
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 09, 2010, 07:21:11 PM
Jim;
The only 49 dated component I'm aware of is Paul's Dial, what else exists ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 09, 2010, 07:22:03 PM
ok, jim.....you have dashed my hopes, but i get it now.

it did not occur to me that the 50 pre production sets would be brought back to the lab, modified, then sent out again.

of course, the term "early production" itself indicates these models would be all the same. production....production line.....duh.

i must have missed this somewhere, but who has the phone pictured on paul f's site with the "birthday dated" dial. ???

Donna,
My theory is based on 50 sets being used among 300 users.  If aiming dots were absent on the first trials and added later. This is my best guess.
I still lean toward the dial trials being seperate than the field trials.
I think the TT document I refered to is in the TCI library.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 09, 2010, 07:26:44 PM
Jim;
The only 49 dated component I'm aware of is Paul's Dial, what else exists ?
D/P
I was thinking there were other components on the list that Paul posted regarding early 500 sets. It was around the posting of "Paul's Points to Ponder". If I wasn't so busy i would spend to much time opiniating on the points that have been coming up. As it is I am checking the forum and making slight comments.

Typicalliy I am mostly offline this time of year. If it wasn't for the "charm" of the forum, I would be.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: zuperdee on May 10, 2010, 04:12:58 AM
Wow, this thread is still going!!!! I am taking notes here--some of what has been revealed in this thread is making it into my history of the 500, too! Please folks, let me know if I have gotten anything wrong. I am trying very hard to fill in some of the blanks in my history now.

See here:

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/zuperdee/telephones/500_history/we_500_history.html (http://members.dslextreme.com/users/zuperdee/telephones/500_history/we_500_history.html)

-Daniel
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 10, 2010, 12:38:25 PM
The only chink in my armor about the first 4000 being dated 1950, was the fact that Paul has a dial dated 1949. I could not explain that until it dawned on me....
They had separate dial trials, it is possible that these dials were dated 10-49, as that would fit with a 11-49 test run, and Paul has been fortunate enough, to have found one of them. The scarcity of my chassis, and Paul's dial, would fit well into then fact, that no others are still around because, as in my case, the chassis were most likely torn down, and in the case of the dials, they were never used after the tests, because they were no longer new, and torn down for examination.
I think this scenarios goes along ways to explain why I feel, no 1949-500's were ever produced. I think the harder one examines the writings of those that were there, and press releases etc. you can see,  wording was subtle, and is very critical in determining what message was intended in the writings. Back then no interpretation was necessary, as everyone fully understood what was meant by each statement. When someone talked about dial testing, everyone knew where they came from, when someone said initial sets, everyone knew what sets were being spoken of. This 61 years later we are trying to put together a picture puzzle with 1/2 the piece missing.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 10, 2010, 01:26:38 PM
We've had quite a few discussions lately about the need or not of the Equalizer. I started to do some reading and read that the varistor does in the handset, exactly what the Equalizer did. Is this why the Eq was eliminated ? It appears that the description of the function of a varistor as in the U1 receiver is almost exactly what the Equalizers definition is.
Here is what a varistor is said to accomplish......

When a small or moderate voltage is applied across the electrodes, only a tiny current flows, caused by reverse leakage through the diode junctions. When a large voltage is applied, the diode junction breaks down due to a combination of thermionic emission and electron tunneling, and a large current flows.

So the varistor in the Handset appears to do exactly what the varistor in the EQ did.

Did the G1 Handset always have the Varistor in it, or was it added at about the same time the EQ was eliminated ?
 
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on May 10, 2010, 02:45:29 PM
The varistor in the handset was there from the git-go, and it did not replace the equalizer.

The puropose for the varistor in the handset across the receiver was to shunt loud clicks from hurting the ear.  It was described in the 1949 Bell system announcement, and was in the circuit design as I understand it from the very beginning.

The varistor in the equalizer was only there to protect the filament in the thermistor tube from high voltages.  When a phone is ringing and has 70 volts AC on the line, when you answer the phone, it takes a split second for the relays in the central office to detect the phone being answered.  Therefore, when answering the phone while ringing current is being applied, there would be a split second of high enough voltage to burn out the equalizer filament in the thermistor tube if there was no varistor across it.

So, the purpose of the varistor across the receiver was for a totally different purpose than the varistor in the equalizer.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 10, 2010, 03:24:26 PM

The purpose for the varistor in the handset across the receiver was to shunt loud clicks from hurting the ear.  It was described in the 1949 Bell system announcement, and was in the circuit design as I understand it from the very beginning.

Bill;
Bear with me on this. The highlighted text above was exactly what I read was the reason for the Equalizer.
"If it wasn't there the sound at the receiver would be so loud as to be uncomfortable for the listener."
Not an exact quote but the jest of the comment is the same.

So if the clicks were so loud to bother the listener, is it too much of a leap, to imagine that the loud short loop reception, could be dampened for the same reason at the varistor in the handset, not by design, but by accident ? It has been said that; "the equalizer was incorporated for the dampening of the loudness of the short loop, ( I may have that part reversed ?) but what would happen if that same phone, without the equalizer, was utilized in a short loop area  ( OR  Whichever it was that was the problem )  then what, the end user would just have to put up with ?   What magic all of a sudden made that problem go away, or was it theory that never even existed ? Something is just not making logical sense here.
Putting aside the Varistors INTENDED use, couldn't it also of had a beneficial side effect, not by design, by accident ?

Scroll up to 500 C-D....
http://www.paul-f.com/we500typ.htm#Key

Where these varistors located inside the network ?

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on May 10, 2010, 04:04:18 PM
Clicks in the receiver are caused by transient voltage spikes that are in the order of a volt or two at their peak.  The actual A.C. voice voltages in a receiver are measured in milivolts, so a transient that is in the magnitude of entire volts is pretty loud and needs clamping.  that is the purpose of the varistor that is across the receiver.  The varistor in the receiver does not have the sensitivity, nor is it in the proper place in the circuit to accomplish a variable volume control.

Remember that the telephone circuit has a primary side that in essence is the switch, the dial pulse contacts, the transmitter, and the primary side of the induction coil.  That is the DC path.  The equalizer filament was placed in series with this DC path so that it could sense the loop current that flows through the primary side of the induction coil.  This is the only place that the loop current can be sensed.

The secondary side of the induction coil is in its simplest form, the secondary and tertiary windings of the induction coil and the receiver element.  No direct current flows through the receiver.  Only voice frequency AC and the transient voltage spikes that do make it through the receiver circuit.  Since there is no DC in the receiver side, there is no capability for any component on that side of the induction coil to sense loop current.  All that varistor can do is clamp transient voltage spikes.

When the 425B network came out, they replaced the thermistor tube with another varistor that IS in the primary side of the circuit that had better current sensing and limiting characteristics than the thermistor tube.  The varistor on the receiver was still needed to supress clicks.

When you say "what magic all of a sudden made that problem go away?"  I don't understand what you mean, so bear with me too.

Do you mean when they built the 425B network, the equalizer was not used any more?  that is because a new generation of a varistor was created in the 1952-1953 area that made it so that a varistor could be used in the primary circuit and be done much cheaper than the equalizer.  The Bell system Technical Journal of 1953 announcing the 425B network specifically says that the 425B network was a breakthrough in designing new varistors that could now be used in the primary side of the circuit and replace the costly equalizer.  The way they described it was that there was a breakthrough in technology that had not existed in the 1948-1949 era when the 500 was first designed.  Jim Stettler had a link to that article a while back.  It is kind of technical, and I admit there is a lot of the math and so forth that I don't comprehend either, but if you read just the words you will see how excited they were over the new technology.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 10, 2010, 05:37:21 PM
Bill;
Thanks for explaining all of this. Most of us have never heard this explained before.
The question about the magic, was I haven't heard an explanation of the equalizer was incorporated into the new network. We will never know if we don't ask.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on May 10, 2010, 05:51:54 PM
Bill;
Thanks for explaining all of this. Most of us have never heard this explained before.
The question about the magic, was I haven't heard an explanation of the equalizer was incorporated into the new network. We will never know if we don't ask.
D/P

I think it is good that questions get asked, because unless we do, then we don't learn, and nobody else does either.  Sometimes I am challenged at giving understandable answers, and then I am also learning a great deal too.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: rp2813 on May 11, 2010, 03:44:00 AM
I think the statements about the first production 500's (for the subscribership at large) having dates no earlier than 1950 is likely correct.

Now that Paul F. has posted pictures on his site of other 1949 components besides the dial, I suspect that there were never any 500 bases dated 1949, but rather there were probably 500's with bases dated 1950 that contained one or more 1949 components.

It was mentioned somewhere in the previous couple of pages that announcements were made that alluded to a late 1949 launch.  My experience in project management with Pacific Bell/SBC/AT&T included a number of efforts that were met with significant delays.  I see no reason to think that this would not have happened with the 500, considering the huge magnitude of the project and all of the tweaks that were found necessary as the result of trialing and testing.  We used the term "Red Jeopardy" to describe the status of a project that was going to miss its target launch date due to unforeseen and/or unpreventable circumstances.  I'm guessing the 500 project was loaded with "Red Jeopardy" situations that pushed things into 1950.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on May 11, 2010, 09:57:50 AM
I believe there is ample evidence that about 4,000 units were installed beginning in 1949.  (Posted earlier in this thread and at http://www.paul-f.com/weproto.html#500)

The open questions are whether they were "pre-production" or "early production" sets, and what (if any) differences there were between the two.  It may take a while longer to find some sets or documentation from these categories to nail this down.

Also, it seems likely that production in Indianapolis started in earnest in mid-1950 -- probably after several delays.  I'm on the trail of info on other Chicago-area plants that may have been used for interim low volume production in 1949-50.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HarrySmith on May 11, 2010, 11:07:24 AM
Congratulation on a great find! And kudos on a very nice restoration! I just joined this forum a short time ago and just today read this entire thread, AMAZING! I was one of the people who looked at that auction but I did not bid because I was thinking the last thing I need is another parts 500! Guess I should have looked closer!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on May 11, 2010, 11:11:25 AM
Hey, welcome to the forum, Harry, I think you will like it here!

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 11, 2010, 11:26:27 AM
Harry;
Welcome to our forum. A real great bunch gather here.
I looked at the phone, and something about it just intrigued me.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: cihensley@aol.com on May 13, 2010, 05:18:13 PM
This BLR article may help in your early 500 sets research.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 13, 2010, 06:40:29 PM
Ci;
Do you have any other documentation from the same era ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: cihensley@aol.com on May 13, 2010, 08:51:11 PM
DP - Only BSPs, which I have scanned to the TCI Web site..
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 13, 2010, 09:14:15 PM
What are some of them about, or dates ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on June 14, 2010, 09:16:40 PM
This cut-away view of a G handset is from "telephony" by E. I. Green, Bell Telephone laboratories 1957. It is a reprint from encyclopedia Britannica.

It is interesting because of the wiring channel and lack of acoustical barrier (cotton ball). I think this is the closest we have found to a G handset for D/P's phone.

Reading the captian, it states it is a cross section of a modern handset and shows a 1950 500 set.
Further research might yield results using "acoustical barrier".
Just a thought,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on June 14, 2010, 09:40:13 PM
Enlarging the photo, it appears the dial bezel on the "1950" 500 is the curved operator bezel.
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on June 14, 2010, 10:19:31 PM
The diagram is typical of G1 (bakelite) handsets. 

The cotton balls were needed for the G3 (plastic) handsets, as their thin wall construction left a large channel for sound to travel from the receiver to transmitter.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on June 14, 2010, 10:54:21 PM
I was thinking all G's used the cotton balls. This handset looks like a wire channell vs a hollow handle. I suppose it is because it is G1?
Jim

Technically it is the proper style handset for Dan's phone. It just isn't the "find" I thought it was.
 For the record I think D/P's handset should be slightly different from a G1 as discussed before. (slightly thicker handset is my vote)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 15, 2010, 12:57:19 AM
Jim;
Interesting you should mention that, as like we discussed in another thread, I found a 1951 G1 handset that is Very much more beefy than the standard. I'm not sure if this is what you were referring to.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 25, 2010, 01:28:25 PM
Has anyone noticed or pointed out the difference between the finger stop support on the 48-500, and the 49-500 ?
The 48 only uses the fingerstop itself for support whereas the later versions use a beefed up support. I didn't notice that.
If someone else did notice I apologize for overlooking your post.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on June 25, 2010, 04:17:52 PM
Not following you here D/P.  Both pics are of a 49'.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HarrySmith on June 25, 2010, 04:20:31 PM
I THOUGHT THEY WERE THE SAME BUT IWAS AFRAID TO SAY IT!! ::)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 25, 2010, 05:00:36 PM
McHeath;
Check photos now, wrong photo attached.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Kenny C on June 25, 2010, 05:02:16 PM
i see what you mean
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 25, 2010, 06:39:01 PM
Paul;
Have we determined what phone is in the the Dreyfus photo, and the Denice O'Neill photo, because they both have the thinner finger stop support, like the one on the #D177001.
Whereas the Pacific Telephone magazine photo dates their phone, November 1949, and appears to have the beefier finger stop  support, and the black plungers..
Also if you notice on the patent drawing the finger stop is not drawn in ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HarrySmith on June 25, 2010, 07:49:05 PM
Interesting. Looking around at my phones here I see the 500's with the beefier support but my 5302 & 302 have the thinner one.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 25, 2010, 11:04:33 PM
I can only imagine how I would feel if I could somehow prove that The #D177001, was the same phone used in the Dreyfus photo. What a rush that would be.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on June 26, 2010, 01:20:04 AM
Interesting tidbit here.  Curious how they eventually went back to the fingerstop just being supported by the simple metal arm and removed the dial flange piece.  (for lack of a better name)

That would be cool to have the phone in that pic of Dreyfuss eh? :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: cihensley@aol.com on June 28, 2010, 12:24:50 AM
A couple of months ago, I posted a Bell Laboratories Record article on the new (then) 500 set. D/P in a reply post asked if I had any more information on the 500 set. I responded that I had BSPs which I have scanned to the TCI Web site. My response was accurate at the time, but I had a recollection of copying some other article when I had the chance some years ago. I recently came across my missing articles. The attached is another BLR article on the 500 set. Notice on page 415 (second page of the scan) that the dial of the 500 set uses the curved name Operator characteristic of early 500 sets. I have some more BLR articles, including some additional technical descriptions of individual components of the 500 set. I will scan these if there is any interest.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: McHeath on June 28, 2010, 12:47:11 AM
That was a good read, and informative as well, thanks for posting it.  I think you will find that this crowd are fond of original info on the model 500 and the more the better.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 28, 2010, 02:03:39 PM
CI;
More, More....
Thanks great read.

Did you notice that he states at the end of his 3rd paragraph, "the Field trial tests were ready BY 1948"
Meaning possibly that they were made in 1947.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 28, 2010, 02:34:00 PM
After reading CI's post, and the attached PDF's. I've culled a couple passages that make me even more convinced that we are missing something in our interpretation of the early production sets.
If you study the wording of the passages, you should come to the conclusion , If our interpretation of the early sets are correct, these passages should be worded differently.
Example of him stating:

"Several thousand of the first production run"

If only 4000 were produced, wouldn't logic dictate that the phrase might or should read:

"Most of the first production run...", or "a large portion of the first production run"

The way he phrases it, leads me to believe the first production run was a much larger figure than just 4000.
That is why I thought, and continue to think that the 4000 initial sets may have been lumped into the original 100,000 plus of 1950.

We must remember that even though we have an example of a 1949 500, it does not match production models and a could quite possibly be a special made set, and most likely not a production model at all.

He also states that; "the Field Trial sets were carefully studied after the tests were finished", which makes me believe they were destroyed...or at least returned to Murray Hill, as my sets clearly instructs should be done, rather then attempt to examine them in the field.
I still think we have a few major pieces missing from the puzzle, I don't think the evidence supports all that we have stated about the early tests, and production figures for 1949.

I further think if anyone wants to find a 49-500 ( if any more exist ) they should concentrate their search in the Murray Hill area of New Jersey, forget about a lucky find in Chicago, or wherever.
I think the 49-500 at the Seattle museum, belonged to a Murry Hill employee, that had the phone modified for his, or her office use, and took it with them when they retired to Seattle.
 
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HarrySmith on June 28, 2010, 03:46:16 PM
There has got to be someone who was there that is still around. Maybe one of our members who is a former telco employee might have a contact to get a list of names? People who worked in the Murray Hill Lab back then, or in the field in that area, or was at the switchboard??
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 28, 2010, 04:19:27 PM
My thoughts exactly, where are these folks.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: HarrySmith on June 28, 2010, 04:23:36 PM
Do we have any ex-telco guys around? or maybe current telco employees can dig this info up? I someone can come up with a list of names I would volunteer to help with research.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: cihensley@aol.com on June 28, 2010, 09:42:15 PM
Here is another BLR article on 500 set transmission. I have a couple of more articles I will post when I scan them. Relative to doing some research on the trial I have put out several queries to see if there is a lead on some retired Bell Labs people that can lead to other contacts. Basic life expectancy math suggests there is no one remaining that worked on the trial, but someone with institutional memory may be a source of information.

Someone in the Forum that lives in the New York area may be able to visit the AT&T archive to do some research. They probably have any documents pertaining to the trial. Here is a URL with an article about the archive: http://www.aip.org/history/newsletter/spr98/att-arc.htm This article was written in 1998, but I know the archive still exists. Hochheiser, the author of the article, has retired and I don't know the name of the current archivist.

Chuck
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 29, 2010, 02:01:35 PM
I've added another interesting point to the Dreyfus photo. Note the finger stop, it's the early weaker design, like in my phone. this all but rules out the possibility  that the Dreyfus photo is a production set, and most likely is Pre-production and quite possibly 1948 or earlier.
Note that the above posted excerpts from the article listed by CIHensley, my phone could possibly be a 1947-500.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: cihensley@aol.com on June 29, 2010, 10:03:26 PM
Here is a May 1952 BLR article on the 500 set dial.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on June 29, 2010, 10:26:25 PM
Chuck:
You have a superb library of Bell related articles. Excellent reading material.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: cihensley@aol.com on June 30, 2010, 07:46:24 PM
Thanks Jorge.

Here is an article on the G handset for the 500 telephone from the August 1952 BLR.

Chuck
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on June 30, 2010, 10:39:13 PM
Chuck;
That appears to be a book. What book is it ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: cihensley@aol.com on June 30, 2010, 10:57:40 PM
D/P - It appears to be a book, but is and isn't. What I copied from was a collection in which all 10 issues for any year were bound together in a single volume. Like taking all of the issues of say 2009 Newsweek magazine and having them bound in a single volume.

Chuck
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on July 01, 2010, 01:11:38 AM
Harry,

Chuck's article posts provide a who's who of insiders on the 500 development with some biographical info that may help you track them down.

Authors:
W. L. Tuffnell, Station Apparatus Development
W. R. Neisser, Transmission Apparatus Development
R. E. Prescott, Station Apparatus Development
L. J. Cobb, Station Apparatus Development

Others mentioned:
W. Pferd
J. H. Ham
H. W. Bryant

Most of the authors graduated or came to the Bell System in the 1920s -- probably making them over 100 years old.  From the photos, some of the others may have been a few years younger.  Secondary info sources are looking more promising!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on July 01, 2010, 01:37:41 AM
It looks like the best we can hope for may be a relative that has some personal papers.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: cihensley@aol.com on July 01, 2010, 08:43:26 PM
Here is an article on 500 set gongs from the September 1957 BLR.

Chuck
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: JorgeAmely on July 02, 2010, 12:54:07 AM
Excellent reading material Chuck. I wish I could find a set of gongs other than the standard issue, but so far, no luck.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on July 02, 2010, 11:02:45 AM
Excellent reading material Chuck. I wish I could find a set of gongs other than the standard issue, but so far, no luck.

You would probably only (or mostly) find them on 565 keysets that were used in large offices.  Even then, since the phone company probably charged extra for them and had to order them in special, probably only big companies and the gub'ment were able to spring for them.


You might try a collector who deals in key systems.  One that comes to mind is Phil McCarter in Oregon.  I can get you a phone number for him if you wish.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on July 02, 2010, 11:37:30 AM
I don't know if this was mentioned yet:

TCI is offering a reprint of the article about D/P's phone ($5.00)
http://www.telephonecollectors.org/store/store.htm

Russ's little booklet of colored 500 sets is also offered (12.00)

If you decide to order a copy I suggest you also get the 20+ years of newsletters on disc ($20.00)


Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: GG on March 01, 2011, 10:51:27 AM


Just finished reading this entire thread (over a period of a week or so) and I have to say, I'm just in awe.

Not only because Dan appears to have found and resurrected the earliest known 500 set, which is of enormous historic significance, but also because this became a project of the entire community, with everyone engaged in a spirit of cooperation and teamwork.  That kind of cooperation and absence of selfish attitudes is the way things used to be, before the "greed is good" era and its sequelae.  I can think of a few hundred people in high places such as elected office and on Wall Street, who should learn a lesson from that.  

I think we're looking at a pre-production unit from 1948 or earlier, one of a very very small batch.  The uniqueness of all the design elements, their match with the patent diagrams, and the "return to Bell Labs" stamp on the bottom, all point to that conclusion compared to any other possible conclusion.

My earliest example is a date-matched 1952, but I'd love to get hold of a 1950 to be able to hear the difference in subtleties of audio quality between the equalizer and the 425-B network designs.  
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: GG on March 01, 2011, 10:54:11 AM

Tech stuff and question:

Re. filament-based equalizers in early WE 500s, and PBXs:

Possible way to get around the issue of the lifespan of those regulator filaments. 

At risk of sounding heretical, if you want to use a set with an equalizer, I'm going to suggest bypassing the regulator altogether and installing a simple dropping resistor based on what works on your CO loop or PBX loop (see below re. PBXs).  AE did this with a variable resistor in their network circuits, that the installer would adjust upon installation, to produce a given current reading on the test board of 60 mA DC.  You could do similarly with a plain fixed resistor rated 1 - 2 watts, and a terminal strip tucked out of the way somewhere. 

The above arrangement would result in a fixed value but chances are you would not notice any changes in sidetone when you were dialing out and talking. 

On an electromechanical PBX you might get a metallic connection to the CO line whereby your loop suddenly increases from e.g. 100 feet to a mile or more.  But on any modern PBX e.g. Panasonic, that is not the case: the CO line card in the PBX takes care of it for you and your loop characteristics remain the same whether an intercom call or a CO line call. 

Re. the "swoop" on the fingerstop, and the reinforcing projection on the production version: 

Dan's example is mounted with a screw into the fingerstop itself.  I think it's highly likely that that construction would have become more prone to loosening over time than the production #7 dial where the screw is through an opening in the fingerstop into a thread in the dial base.  A thread in the dial base would pass through thicker material enabling the screw to be tightened more so than if the thread was in the thinner fingerstop, thus preventing loosening over time.   And at the time that change was made, the actual shape of the fingerstop may have changed a tiny bit for whatever reason or just incidentally with no specific reason. 

Also the projection that sticks up through the numberplate may have been intended to provide added rigidity to the fingerstop to prevent it getting bent or twisted slightly out of alignment during its expected 40-year lifespan.  The projection also helps to locate the number plate onto the dial mechanism during assembly, which may have been helpful for field techs who had yet to become familiar with the new dial.

Re. the varistor in the earpiece: that served one purpose, which was acoustic shock (click) suppression.  Varistors and other components in the 425-B network block served to compensate transmission to loop length.  I have never seen a U1 receiver element without the 44-A varistor ("tin can") across the terminals (obvious exception for U1s in which the varistor was replaced with the "green TicTac" type).  Any example of a U1 that did not have a varistor on it, would have been a production error: one that got away on the production line before the assembly worker had the chance to grab it and put the varistor on it. 

--

So what's the status of this project at this point?  What ever became of the person who was said to have a 49-500 but was reluctant to release photos? 

Did the Smithsonian ever respond with possible interest in borrowing Dan's phone for an exhibit?  (Don't give it to them: some future budget-cut could result in it getting auctioned off and ending up in unappreciative hands or becoming one of those "objects that are worth too much money for human hands to ever touch" situations.) 

Have any other extremely early 500s ever turned up since then? 

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 01, 2011, 11:18:34 AM
GG;
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Yes this was a joint effort, and would not have been possible without parts and help from several members.
I had hoped that this thread would have encouraged the owner of the alleged, 49-500 to come out and share the phone. It appears that the owner fears theft of it. Though a real possibility, I think it overstates the true value of the set. Their are other known parts and at least one documented set on display. Outside of the Phone collectors community, I think there may not be wholesale interest in a vintage telephone, so at best I would value a unique telephone at the low thousands of dollars. Even though I myself would hesitate to part with my set for less than several thousand dollars, chances are if auctioned, in reality I doubt it would garner what I feel is it's value to me.
This project was my 15 minutes in the spotlight, and I would not trade that for anything.

I never heard back from the Smithsonian, so I figure they either have a prototype 500 or they don't care. The former is my guess.
Here is a side note I found out about the Smithsonian, while visiting the Wright Brothers Museum in Dayton, Ohio. The Smithsonian has exclusive rights to display the Wright Flyer, AS LONG AS THE WRIGHT BROTHERS ARE GIVEN CREDIT FOR THE FIRST FLIGHT OF HEAVIER THAN AIR VEHICLE. IF THAT IS EVER OVERTURNED THE WRIGHTS MUSEUM WILL REVOKE THE FLYER.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: GG on March 01, 2011, 12:20:52 PM

Dan, what I'd suggest you do with this is: 

Keep it, but make it available occasionally to historic exhibits, so long as it's properly protected from damage.  And put it in your will to one of the folks who made a significant contribution to the project, with the stipulation that it never be sold for money or traded for anything else, but always passed along to someone who is chosen by the community at-large as a representative of the spirit of the original Bell System and all the people who built our communications networks. 

So whoever has it after you've left this world would have to put a similar statement into their own will, and so on, for generations to come.  If at some point it was to end up in a museum, the requirement would be that if the museum had no further use for it, they would be bound to contact whatever relevant historical society existed and pass it along to them, with the ongoing condition that it's to be treated as a part of America's heritage that should never be reduced to commodity. 

This is one of those rare "living artifacts" whose intrinsic value can't be bought or sold, but only passed along from hand to hand by way of the tradition it represents.  If I'm not mistaken, there were similar practices in some ancient cultures for handling artifacts that had deep cultural significance.  And there is no question that the WE 500 is one of the most culturally significant artifacts of the entire 20th century. 

It was an integral part of, and the symbol of, the expansion of telecommunications to become truly universal in America.  Connected across the Bell System network, it enabled individuals to communicate with their loved ones, their business associates, and their elected officials, on a continental scale.  It was the doorway into the original "cyberspace" as defined by John Barlow, whereby America's most profound experiences were shared from person to person.

There are few objects in living memory that have played such an integral role in the shape of our culture by opening up new horizons to the reach of every individual.  And this community has done an exemplary job of embodying the original spirit of the times in the project to bring this artifact back to life. 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: MyDodgeDip on March 30, 2012, 12:11:13 AM
Sorry for resurrecting a really old thread, I'm late to the game here.  :-[

I grew up in Murray Hill, about a block from Bell Labs.  I'm only 27 so I don't know anyone right off the bat who worked there during this time period but I did study a lot of local history.  I also know that on the facebook page for Berkeley Heights (Murray Hill is actually a section of both Berkeley Heights and New Providence)  people have talked about relatives or themselves working at the labs.  It may be worth a post there to try to make some connections.  Many people lived in town to work at bell labs and their children stayed long after. 

There is also a book (actually 2) about Berkeley Heights, at least one of which that has a chapter of pictures and information about the labs.  I'll have to see if I can find my copy.  It may be worth trying to contact the local librarian who researched and wrote the books to see if there is anyone who you could talk to about this.

The facebook page is called "You know you're from Berkeley Heights when..."  There are at least 2 posts about the labs there.  If you can't find it, PM me and I can invite you.

The Books:

#1:  http://tinyurl.com/7ayv5kx

#2: http://tinyurl.com/8a34s9c
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: MagicMo on February 23, 2013, 11:55:08 PM
Dan,
 This is a fantastic story. It would be great if you could start a new topic about this phone again, along with some new pics. I would  love to hear everyone thoughts about it. Do you still have the phone? Did anyone come forward with a 49-500? Is there any new information about your phone? This is so cool and exciting that I want to hear more about it!
Also, I want to know how the conference call went. Who was a part of it? Did it work out?
Thanks,
Mo
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: baldopeacock on February 24, 2013, 12:21:10 PM
Mo,

Some of the forum members discovered a real '49 at a museum in Seattle.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2689.0
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on February 25, 2013, 01:56:33 PM
Mo;
I can do better then that. I have in my grubby little hands, well actually on my computer. I have the original 57 minute conference call on MP3. I also have a photo of myself making the call, and a recording of the dial to the phone to show it's rather unique sound.
If someone would be so kind as to help me figure out how to make that large of a file available, I will gladly post it. You Tube only allows 15 minutes maximum.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Brinybay on February 25, 2013, 03:52:26 PM
Mo;
I can do better then that. I have in my grubby little hands, well actually on my computer. I have the original 57 minute conference call on MP3. I also have a photo of myself making the call, and a recording of the dial to the phone to show it's rather unique sound.
If someone would be so kind as to help me figure out how to make that large of a file available, I will gladly post it. You Tube only allows 15 minutes maximum.

D/P

Maybe just email the file to her directly.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Brinybay on February 25, 2013, 03:54:10 PM
Dan,
 This is a fantastic story. It would be great if you could start a new topic about this phone again, along with some new pics. I would  love to hear everyone thoughts about it. Do you still have the phone? Did anyone come forward with a 49-500? Is there any new information about your phone? This is so cool and exciting that I want to hear more about it!
Also, I want to know how the conference call went. Who was a part of it? Did it work out?
Thanks,
Mo

Mo, I sent you a copy of the Singing Wires article regarding the 49-500 we found at the Communications Museum in Seattle.  I would recommend joining TCI if you haven't already.  BTW, I love your avatar!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Russ Kirk on February 25, 2013, 03:55:18 PM
I can think of two ways,  one permanent,  the other only available a short time.

Have the TCI library add it to their collection.

Second would be to make the file available for a short time via:
www.yousendit.com/
You upload the file and it is available for a set number of downloads or a set time like 14 days.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on February 25, 2013, 04:41:51 PM
Russ;
I went to your link, it will allow me to forward it to one person. Is there another way to post it permanently, rather for the 14 days you suggest ?
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Russ Kirk on February 25, 2013, 05:02:37 PM
Russ;
I went to your link, it will allow me to forward it to one person. Is there another way to post it permanently, rather for the 14 days you suggest ?
D/P

Like a lot of services,  there are different levels from FREE to pay for service.  I happen to have signed up for the LITE version which is free,  but has download and temporary availability limitations, enough for my occasional needs every few months.   I think if you want permanent capabilities you have to sign up for a premium service. 

But if you are TCI member,  try contacting them and see if they will upload the file to their server for inclusion into the library. That way, everyone will have access for the future.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on February 25, 2013, 06:31:56 PM
Mo;
Let me know if you were able to receive the file I sent you.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: paul-f on February 25, 2013, 06:39:59 PM
Dan's opening comments are still archived in the Invitation to The Conference Call topic:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2554.msg35269#msg35269

The full files that were temporarily available are long gone.  If there's interest, we can probably find a home for them somewhere.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: MagicMo on February 26, 2013, 12:14:03 AM
 Out of town until tomorrow. I will check it out when I get back home. I can't wait!!! So cool!
Mo :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: MagicMo on March 03, 2013, 06:37:17 PM
Dan's opening comments are still archived in the Invitation to The Conference Call topic:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2554.msg35269#msg35269

The full files that were temporarily available are long gone.  If there's interest, we can probably find a home for them somewhere.

Hi Dan,
Did you send it to my email? I didn't get anything.
Thanks,
Mo
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 04, 2013, 03:45:26 PM
Mo;
I'm resending it now. Maybe the file is too large for email.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: david@london on March 28, 2013, 06:15:04 AM
....have been reading through this incredibly interesting post's many pages over the last couple of days.

d/p: you mention at one point a 'beefed-up' g1 handset, and show a photograph of 2 different h/sets.  could you give any more info on that...........is it the one you have on the phone now, and how do the dimensions differ ?

any chance of a recording of the phone ringing, similar to the recording of the unusual dial ?

many thanks.

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 28, 2013, 03:11:40 PM
I vaguely recall a post about the beefy handset. If you could give me the page number. If I recall, I found a photo of a beefy handset, and some thought maybe just photo angle.
The ringer is exactly the same as regular 500 ringer.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: david@london on March 28, 2013, 03:38:55 PM
thanks .......i misunderstood and thought you were in possession of a differently-dimensioned g1.
it would take some rooting around amongst the 66 pages of this post to find the photo, as i didn't note the page no.....it may be about two-thirds of the way through.
anyway congrats on yr amazing renovation of this unique telephone dan - i enjoyed reading about it.
thanks for info on ringer.

david

edit : it's on page 62
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 29, 2013, 12:48:22 AM
I am continually jazzed about it.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Phonesrfun on March 29, 2013, 01:58:49 AM
There was never any G handset that had any different dimensions or design than the classic G handset we all know. 

Early G handsets, however, were made of Bakelite, which was noticeably heavier than the later soft and hard plastic versions.  Also, the early Bakelite G handsets had grooves along the side edges of the handle.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on March 29, 2013, 02:51:34 PM
Thanks Bill, If I recall, that is what we had established, when the original photo was posted, ( which I can't seem to Find. ) and the question was brought up. The photo posted, was probably just a lighting, or angle differential.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: MagicMo on May 10, 2013, 09:56:15 PM
Dan, Did you do any restoration to this phone?
Can you put pictures up if you did?
My apologies if you posted about this, I couldn't find it.
Thank You
Mo
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 11, 2013, 11:42:48 PM
Mo;
Not at all, I love showing and discussing the topic.
First 4 photos, before, and after, last photo, as displayed now.
 D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: MagicMo on May 12, 2013, 12:55:16 AM
Simply Amazing! Beautiful job.
Mo ;)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: zaphod01 on May 12, 2013, 07:51:21 AM
That phone makes me smile every time I see it!  :)

What a prize!

 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: MagicMo on May 12, 2013, 09:20:05 AM
I would be afraid to touch it. I would hate myself if I accidentally dropped it, I have been known to be clumsy.
Again, it is beautiful.
Thanks for posting.
Mo
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 12, 2013, 04:43:52 PM
It makes me smile each time I look at it also, and I would love to use it more, but I'm concerned an internal component might fail, and no replacement available. So I look and smile alot. I really wish I could find a PERMANENT location, for all to see for a long time to come. I'm just not confident, that a museum is as long term as I wish. I would not want it ending up on eBay.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 13, 2013, 04:53:23 PM
It makes me smile each time I look at it also, and I would love to use it more, but I'm concerned an internal component might fail, and no replacement available.
D/P
I suspect the components will outlast an early production model 500 set.
JMO,
Jim
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AE_Collector on May 13, 2013, 05:58:57 PM
Mo;
I'm resending it now. Maybe the file is too large for email.
D/P

Isn't 16 Meg the normal maximum size of an email? It is for me and that includes overhead leaving less room for actual content. Any idea what size the file is D/P?

Terry
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 14, 2013, 01:28:42 AM
Terry;
Which file are you referring to.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: AE_Collector on May 14, 2013, 10:24:43 AM
Oops, sorry. It was this topic but I didn't notice that it was from back in April!  I added the quote to my post now. Was when you were trying to email Mo the complete audio file of the 1 hour phone call.

Terry
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: MagicMo on May 14, 2013, 12:00:11 PM
I never did get the file. I think my email was unable to handle it. I think I was supposed to go to a third party site and sign up to listen to it?
Dan, You should take a video and YouTube it!
Actually, I would love to see it in person. Will you display it at any telephone shows?
Thanks
Mo
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 14, 2013, 01:55:09 PM
Mo;
There is a website called dropbox.com, Google it.
If you download the app to your computer, I can send large files to you. I recently signed up and it works great.
Dan If you sign up, just let me know, and I can send to the files.

Regards;
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: MagicMo on May 29, 2013, 09:58:20 PM
Mo;
There is a website called dropbox.com, Google it.
If you download the app to your computer, I can send large files to you. I recently signed up and it works great.
Dan If you sign up, just let me know, and I can send to the files.

Regards;
D/P

Hi Dan,
I signed up. What do I do now?
Thanks
Mo
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: Dan/Panther on May 30, 2013, 12:35:18 AM
I sent the file through Dropbox to the email listed here. I hope it works.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
Post by: MagicMo on May 30, 2013, 09:49:59 AM
I sent the file through Dropbox to the email listed here. I hope it works.
D/P

Thanks! I'll go check right now,  ;D
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: MagicMo on July 05, 2013, 07:25:34 PM
Dan,
I was reading some old posts and came across one from you (2009)

Bill;
I had to read our posts twice, i couldn't figure out how my post got into your post.
How starnge almost exact saying posted at the same time. JINX !!!!

My Holy Grail, would be a 49 WE500, my birth year.
D/P

I thought that was cool!
Mo
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: WEBellSystemChristian on August 09, 2013, 08:55:39 PM
I was first very, very jealous that you got such a terrific find. :'( But as I kept reading about the restoration process, I became happy that you care so much about this phone, and that it WILL remain safe, because it's an important piece of history. ;) Flawless results and a fantastic job!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Dan/Panther on August 13, 2013, 12:11:27 PM
Christian;
Thank you for the compliment.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Jim Stettler on August 25, 2013, 05:25:20 AM
I was first very, very jealous that you got such a terrific find. :'( But as I kept reading about the restoration process, I became happy that you care so much about this phone, and that it WILL remain safe, because it's an important piece of history. ;) Flawless results and a fantastic job!

I was on this thread at the beginning and I was very jealous as well, as the whole story spun out, I realized that I wasn't qualified to own that phone in that condition. I was amazed at D/P's capabilities in restoration and fabrication. What was really cool was all the help that Dan got as far as parts and research. It also got Paul F. to quit lurking and to join the forum. Many things  on this phone were different than the production model.

Earlier tonite I was on Paul F.'s site ('37 302's info) and saw the design drawing of the proposed set
Scroll down on the page

http://paul-f.com/weproto.html


This triggered my memory of the field trial lady.
She was a good friend of a Bell Lab's engineer and loved telephone technology, she had lived in NJ and did lots of field trials*. She got to field trial and keep telephones. She was in the first trial of the 500 proto type and was still peaved she had to give it back, they later replaced it with an early 500 but she said the other phone was different. When I saw the drawing it made me realize that might be what she meant.

D/P's set is pre-production, probably 1948 I am really leanig towards the housing being like the drawing.
JMO,
Jim

*Field trials she participated in: Interphone, ,panel phone, Schmoo (never used) 500 set, I think princesss and trimline as well.,
She was talked  into leaving her field trial panel phone in NJ, they replaced it with  a production model, she had all the BSP's ect for her interphone and they gave here an early 1949?  500, probably with the 1949 sticker like paul's site
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Dan/Panther on August 25, 2013, 06:42:09 PM
I never get tired of revisiting this thread. Such a great time. None of this would have been possible without the collective help of the members of the forum. Time, research, advice, components and labor were contributed by many members, all donated to the cause. I still would like to put the set on permanent display someplace. I'm just not sure where it will not be lost at some future date, or sold for a profit on eBay.
D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: WEBellSystemChristian on August 26, 2013, 12:47:49 AM
I would personally be afraid to touch it and destroy it with my fingerprints. I'd have to handle it with cloth gloves :P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Dan/Panther on August 26, 2013, 09:17:37 PM
It's now behind glass and I rarely ever touch it. I just can't resist once in awhile spinning the dial.
D/P
That never gets boring.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: WEBellSystemChristian on August 27, 2013, 05:06:31 PM
I bet it doesn't.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Rescuemo on October 23, 2013, 07:21:32 PM
Wow! Just read this entire thread, amazing find! My earliest 500 is a '53, awaiting restoration. Truly amazing to find one like that, an early test set, pre-production.  Congrats, D/P, you did it justice!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Dan/Panther on October 24, 2013, 12:54:46 PM
Morris;
As we speak, I'm looking at the phone right now, in it's cabinet. I still get butterfly's looking at it.
If anyone has ideas on displaying it, let me know. I'm open for whatever is best for all.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: WEBellSystemChristian on October 24, 2013, 01:42:33 PM
Anyone notice how the "after" pictures of the phone are on the same page number the phone was built, '48?
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: andre_janew on February 02, 2015, 06:50:34 PM
Yes, and I think he planned it that way somehow.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Partyline4 on February 23, 2015, 06:14:12 PM
Top notch!

Outstanding!

Such a great read....So hard to imagine getting such a wonderful piece of history.

Hey,

Have you considered a time capsule?

The phone will surely be passed down to someone in the future.

We certainly don't want it getting ditched at an estate sale for $5   ;D

What if you could get it sent into space?

A "monumentally historic artifact in the history of Earth bound communication".

I like it.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: McHeath on February 24, 2015, 01:42:45 AM
Ha!  Sending it into space is so crazy it sort of makes sense.  Give it the right angle and enough thrust and it will pretty much end up eternal, traveling forever, like the Voyager probes.  It would be one of the few human creations to last an awfully long time, and of all the stuff that we've made that ought to survive I think this phone probably deserves a spot. 

Now all we have to do is talk Dan and NASA into it. ;)

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: RotarDad on August 26, 2018, 12:56:48 PM
D/P - There must be a place for a phone like this in a national museum, like the Smithsonian, I would think.  After all, this is most likely the only survivor of a field trial for the most-produced telephone ever in world history.  Am I over-stating its significance?  It doesn’t bling like the “Spirit of St. Louis” aircraft on display, but the phone is a huge piece of American communications history......
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Dan/Panther on August 27, 2018, 11:56:04 AM
The photos of the completed set were posted at random as I obtained them. No conspiracy here, just coincidence.

I would have a better shot at contacting Elon Musk for a shot at launching the phone into space, my son works for Space-X as an engineer on the Dragon Capsule project.

It never gets old or routine looking at the 48-500. I am quite a nostalgia nut, and have several relics that are from days long gone, but the 48-500 rates number one on the list. I really have mixed feeling about exactly what to do with the phone. A small museum may go out of business, and the phone would be lost for ever. However the chances of a major museum accepting the phone for permanent display is rather slim.
I welcome a serious discussion on it's future.

D/P 
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Brinybay on August 27, 2018, 12:24:57 PM
The photos of the completed set were posted at random as I obtained them. No conspiracy here, just coincidence.

I would have a better shot at contacting Elon Musk for a shot at launching the phone into space, my son works for Space-X as an engineer on the Dragon Capsule project.

It never gets old or routine looking at the 48-500. I am quite a nostalgia nut, and have several relics that are from days long gone, but the 48-500 rates number one on the list. I really have mixed feeling about exactly what to do with the phone. A small museum may go out of business, and the phone would be lost for ever. However the chances of a major museum accepting the phone for permanent display is rather slim.
I welcome a serious discussion on it's future.

D/P

What about the Connections Museum in Seattle?  They already have a 49-500, a 48-500 would make a good pair.

https://www.telcomhistory.org/connections-museum-seattle/

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2689.0
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: RotarDad on August 27, 2018, 12:35:37 PM
In keeping with my belief that this phone is a huge piece of US history, I did a bit of searching on the Smithsonian site and found an FAQ, which includes the inquiry process for gifting or selling an item to the museum:

https://www.si.edu/faqs

Seems like it couldn’t hurt to test the waters with such a process.  One issue might be ensuring the phone is actually displayed, as museums have lots of warehoused items.  Apparently the Smithsonian has been at work making items available for online viewing as well, which is very nice.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: AL_as_needed on August 27, 2018, 07:40:25 PM
online viewing.... so basically CRPF  ;)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Jim Stettler on August 27, 2018, 08:59:14 PM
online viewing.... so basically CRPF  ;)
A link could always be provided to the Smithsonian. :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: RotarDad on August 30, 2018, 09:38:36 PM
Dan - How about offering to swap the Seattle Connections Museum their ‘49 for your field trial unit.  If you are confident about that museum’s longevity, you would get a permanent home for your set and a long-sought-after ‘49 in return.....  Then you can will the ‘49 back to the museum at your passing if desired.....
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Dan/Panther on August 31, 2018, 12:35:22 PM
Paul;
I was thinking along the lines of what you are saying. I wanted a 49-500 set because 1949 is my birth year.
NOW if someone came up with an all matching dates 10-49, WE 500, I was thinking a trade may be in the works. I just don't know what the 48-500 is valued at.

D/P

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: RotarDad on August 31, 2018, 09:39:28 PM
Dan - Value is super hard when there is only one, as you well know.  I would bet your field trial set is much more valuable than any other 500, but you’d only know by auctioning it off, which you probably won’t do.  I guess you could EBay with sky-high reserve and test the waters..... :o.  The challenge is that dollars aren’t the big question here.  If it were mine, I’d want some compensation if possible, but the longevity in the public domain would be very important.  Couldn’t hurt to chat with the Seattle museum folks to see where it might go.....

Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: MaximRecoil on September 03, 2018, 11:57:20 AM
You did a beautiful job fabricating that finger wheel; it looks factory-made. If you feel up to making another one, I'd suggest trying Delrin rather than ABS and see if you like it better. Delrin is very dense and rigid; even denser than Bakelite (1.41 g/cm³ for Delrin vs. 1.3 g/cm³ for Bakelite):

Quote
The acetal resins are among the strongest and stiffest of all thermoplastics, and are known to have great fatigue life, low moisture absorption, high solvent and chemical resistance, and excellent electrical properties. Because of these properties, acetals often compete with nylons for many of the same applications. Bushings, gears, bearings, rollers, and wear strips are just a few common examples of how acetals are used.

Also, Delrin machines beautifully. Here's (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/548899b7e4b0a0b35b62e3e9/5655cda4e4b0c6e18e281f0d/5655cda8e4b0f60cdb9638a8/1448464107982/Aeromat_Acetal-4.jpg) a picture of some machined Delrin parts.

Quote
Delrin is the crystalline thermoplastic of choice for impact and wear resistance in a wide range of industrial and mechanical applications. With low, consistent internal stress, the material is easily machined and fabricated, experiencing little dimensional change during machining and use. Delrin is also known as acetal.

Also, the color of the ABS you used is sort of a very dark gray which doesn't match the deep black color of the phone's shell and dial bezel; at least that's the way it appears in the pictures. I don't know if you'd get a better color match with Delrin or not. I suppose painting is always an option. Does anyone know what type of paint that Bell used when they sometimes painted shells and handsets during refurbishment? I have a black painted 500 and whatever paint they used is very tough.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Dan/Panther on September 03, 2018, 12:54:07 PM
They use Polene paint.
The way my hand shakes now I doubt I could duplicate the finger wheel.
I mean really, I can thread a sewing machine while it's running.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: HarrySmith on September 03, 2018, 01:59:24 PM
I just went through part of this thread just for kicks as it has been a while. It still amazes me!
At one point there was a discussion about putting together a booklet illustrating the restoration. I could not find any talk on whether or not it was happening. I think it would be a great idea as the thread is very long and takes quite a while to wade through. Something documenting with pictures the restoration including sourced parts (and where they came from), the parts you made (and the process) and the cleaning. If this was all put togehter somehow it would be easier to read & enjoy.
Just a thought.
EDIT: apparently some pictures are already gone such as the auction pictures. I hope they are saved somewhere!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Dan/Panther on September 04, 2018, 12:24:18 PM
Yes, a book was in the works. We had issues with how to present some of the information, so things stalled, and just didn't get started again. I have thought about starting it up again.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: HarrySmith on September 04, 2018, 01:56:27 PM
I, for one, would support it. If you need anything I can help with just let me know.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Dan/Panther on September 05, 2018, 12:41:33 PM
I will dig out all of the pages saved so far and see how much needs finished.

D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Vern P on September 13, 2018, 08:08:03 PM
Yes I know this can be a lot of work, but I do hope this will come to pass.
Vern
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Partyline4 on September 28, 2018, 10:46:14 PM
Dan - Value is super hard when there is only one, as you well know.  I would bet your field trial set is much more valuable than any other 500, but you’d only know by auctioning it off, which you probably won’t do.  I guess you could EBay with sky-high reserve and test the waters..... :o.  The challenge is that dollars aren’t the big question here.  If it were mine, I’d want some compensation if possible, but the longevity in the public domain would be very important.  Couldn’t hurt to chat with the Seattle museum folks to see where it might go.....



+1

I'd love to see a mock eBay listing and see where it went....A lot of people might not realize the importance of it, otherwise a large group of collectors could throw you their numbers and see where it goes. There could be an avid collector out there, not even a member of the forum that silently hunts eBay looking for just your phone.....

I would certainly sell it, get some money to enjoy life with. I wouldn't just give it away without some green crossing my palm.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: MMikeJBenN on February 12, 2019, 08:27:15 AM
This is one of the 1948 prototypes - the Field Trial sets.  Yours is extremely rare - maybe only 3 or 4 exist.  Naturally, now that I said that, all sorts of others might pop up!
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: RotarDad on February 12, 2019, 10:51:15 AM
maybe only 3 or 4 exist.

Do you have any specifics in support of other surviving sets?  So far I don’t think any evidence has surfaced here on the forum regarding the existence of any more of these sets.  We’d love more info if you have some.
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Dan/Panther on February 12, 2019, 12:57:10 PM
To date I have not heard nor seen any reference to another set like the 48-500.
In fact I haven't heard of any matching parts. Many of the internal parts are not what was used in the final version of the 500. Of course that doesn't mean there aren't others out there. Mine was in such bad condition, that it tells me they weren't of too much interest at the time, and I fear many were destroyed, or are in land fills.
In the future I am sure someone will uncover a hoard of old phone related parts, maybe at the old Bell Laboratories ( Lucent Technologies  ) I would love to have free reign in that building for 1 day. Then again, when Ma Bell was dismantled, maybe it was all trashed.
At this point I have no idea where my phone will end up when I finally make my last call and hang up. I would be VERY reluctant to sell it. I would like to see it end up in a museum, but choosing would be very hard.
Maybe it will end up finishing the journey it was on when I obtained stewardship of it. I hope not, but one never knows.


D/P
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: RotarDad on February 12, 2019, 09:13:32 PM
Dan - It was so great that you were the guy to identify and buy it.  You did an awesome job on the restoration and involving the entire forum in the process.  The best thread on this forum in many ways, in my opinion.  For me a nice black 500 will always be my favorite - it is awesome to have the beginning of the 500 story with your field trial set.  :)
Title: Re: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set
Post by: Dan/Panther on February 13, 2019, 03:16:41 PM
Right now as I write this I can see the phone in it's cabinet across the room. It just never gets old. I love opening the cabinet just to spin the dial.
I was very lucky to be the one to receive this wonderful phone.
I'm still going through the old files on the book that myself and Bwanna had started.

D/P