Author Topic: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!  (Read 14478 times)

Offline poplar1

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2013, 04:04:58 PM »
I don't understand what you mean by "conversion of the F handset." The correct handset for a 5302 is either an F1 or a GF, and not F4 or nor G1--i.e., no conversion  of the F1 [to F4] is necessary.  The exception would be on long loops, where a 500, 302G with F4- or 5302 with G1 would be appropriate. It's doubtful that an F4 would be found on anything other than a 202 or 302, since if you wanted 500-style transmitter (T1) and receiver (U1), you could just install a G1 handset on a 5302 but couldn't do so on a 202 or 302 because it wouldn't fit.

Most if not all the 5302s installed by Southern Bell had either G1 handsets or F1. Although we were less than 2 miles from the C.O., Southern Bell installed a 5302G with G1 handset in our house. The sidetone was much too loud because the G1 handset is too efficient for use with a 302 circuit except on long loops.




well...anyway this phone is cool and i'd like to have one like this one day....they are rare those who are not refurbished
You need to be aware that *all* 5300-series (5302, 5304,... 54xx) were refurbished telephone sets. These were never made 'new'. After Western Electric stopped manufacturing 302-type sets and started to replace the existing sets in the field with newer 500-types, the refurbishing centers accumulated large stockpiles of 302-type parts that had not approached their design service life. As the demand for new-style phones was stressing the supply chain, WeCo created a new housing for the 302-base that looked like a 500-type set. So, starting in approx. August 1955 after they completed the conversion of the F handset to provide similar performance as the G-type, the Bell System installed sets that were converted in the refurbishing shops, not in the factories. This lasted until about 1965.

The model numbers were those of the old 300 or 400-types adding the prefix 5, whence 5302, etc.
So you may see component part dates in these phones from the entire 302 service period. The only clue of creation is the date stamp on the housing, at the inside front edge below the dial opening.

As the electrical performance of these sets was not as flexible as that of the new 500-type, the installation of these sets was limited to the zones with short local loops. They did have some variability in zoning because of the types of handsets available, each with slightly different efficiency: the old F1 type, the F4 with 500-type elements, and the GF with F1/HA1 elements. I am not sure I have seen a 5302 with a G1 handset.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 04:13:27 PM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2013, 04:52:07 PM »
I don't understand what you mean by "conversion of the F handset."
This statement was based on some Bell System document, I believe, and when I find the reference again, I will post it.  I recall that this development was finished 26 Aug 1955, or announced that day. I will find the reference again.  I believe it was the retrofitting of the F1 handset with G-type elements, but I believe the reference was not specific about that.

The efficiency of the new G-type over the F-type was about 5dB each for transmission and receiving, and about half of that was achieved by electrical means, while the other half came from mechanical redesign of the handset. So, this makes it very plausible that some 'tuning' was possible with using a converted F handset with efficiency in between the original F1 and the original G1.  The converted F1 may have had similar performance as the GF handset, each about 2.5 dB in the middle.

So, I find it quite reasonable that various telcos adapted to supply and performance needs by using any combination of these handsets / elements on a 5302.

What they clearly should NOT have done is give you a 5302 with a G1/T1/U1 handset so close to the CO.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 05:21:17 PM by unbeldi »

Offline Contempra

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2013, 05:53:08 PM »
It's weird...
Denis

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2013, 06:27:10 PM »
What's weird?
-Bill G

unbeldi

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2013, 06:34:14 PM »
... The correct handset for a 5302 is either an F1 or a GF, and not F4 or nor G1--i.e., no conversion  of the F1 [to F4] is necessary.

That is not quite correct, or complete is a better term.  BSP C32.568 Issue 1 of May 1956 provides a table (A) of the 5300/5400 set components and it lists the 'standard' handsets as  F1G-3, F4A-3, and G1A-3.

Also, I just found the reference I was looking for.  It is the 1974 issue of AT&T's 'Events in Telephone History'.  It states that on August 26, 1955 "Developments completed to convert 300-type handsets to give most of characteristics of 500-type."
I interpret this as marking the birth of the F4 handset.

What this does not confirm is the actual launch of the 5300/5400 series. It could well be that some were marked before August, as we know that production always took place sometime well before official launch, as it would be very embarrassing not to have enough supply when orders for kits come in.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 06:43:13 PM by unbeldi »

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2013, 06:48:44 PM »
Weren't the F4's were used mostly with the Continental and the Imperials which were re-purposed 202's that were used with 685A subsets based on 425 network technology?  I am not aware that they would have normally been used the F4 or with a 302 or 5302.

On long loops with the F4 or G1 (T1/U1 combination) with a 302 or 5302, you would get 500-like results, especially with a G1 with the better dsigned handle.

On medium loops you would have louder than normal volume in the receiver. 

Close to the CO on short loops, the 5302 with the induction coil and no attenuation capabilities that the 500 had would give the subscriber uncomfortably loud volume of not only what they hear from the distant end, but sidetone too.
-Bill G

unbeldi

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2013, 07:09:18 PM »
Weren't the F4's were used mostly with the Continental and the Imperials which were re-purposed 202's that were used with 685A subsets based on 425 network technology?  I am not aware that they would have normally been used the F4 or with a 302 or 5302.

On long loops with the F4 or G1 (T1/U1 combination) with a 302 or 5302, you would get 500-like results, especially with a G1 with the better dsigned handle.

On medium loops you would have louder than normal volume in the receiver.  

Close to the CO on short loops, the 5302 with the induction coil and no attenuation capabilities that the 500 had would give the subscriber uncomfortably loud volume of not only what they hear from the distant end, but sidetone too.
I agree with all of that.
Just quoting the BSP when it comes to F4 use on 5302s.
I think I have several F4s that I found on painted 202s, and I believe they stem from late 1955 or early 1956.

The reason for developing the F4 certainly was the introduction of the 685A subset in early 1955 or perhaps even a little earlier. BSP C31.124 Issue 1 (March 1955).
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 08:52:32 PM by unbeldi »

Offline Contempra

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2013, 08:20:22 PM »
What's weird?

Taking a piece from a phone and trying to fit the piece on another phone ... I imagine that a ford piece and put this piec on a chevy lol. anyway I understand me .. hahahahaha...
Denis

Offline poplar1

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2013, 12:06:29 PM »
What's weird?

Taking a piece from a phone and trying to fit the piece on another phone ... I imagine that a ford piece and put this piec on a chevy lol. anyway I understand me .. hahahahaha...

Well, that would be a "Frankenphone"---mixing parts from different manufacturers. On the other hand, what Western Electric was doing was repurposing old Western Electric parts to create a mostly old 5302 phone that looked like the currently produced 500 set.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline paul-f

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2013, 01:02:43 PM »
<snip>

Also, I just found the reference I was looking for.  It is the 1974 issue of AT&T's 'Events in Telephone History'.  It states that on August 26, 1955 "Developments completed to convert 300-type handsets to give most of characteristics of 500-type."
I interpret this as marking the birth of the F4 handset.

What this does not confirm is the actual launch of the 5300/5400 series. It could well be that some were marked before August, as we know that production always took place sometime well before official launch, as it would be very embarrassing not to have enough supply when orders for kits come in.


I believe you are on thin ice making any conclusion on the birth of the F4 from the preceeding statement.

I caution anyone to look for a second source for anything pulled from "Events in Telephone History."

"Events..." was originally published by the PR Department, with the dates taken from press releases from headquarters, so may or may not be the actual date the switch was thrown in the first two cities.  Finding a copy of the source press release or an article based on it would answer a lot of questions.

Consider the source.  "Events..." was undoubtedly compiled by non-technical PR staff in the ivory tower and to be used by non-technical staff.  A preface in the 1964 edition (copy in the TCI Library) states:

- - - - -
"Events in Telephone History" is intended as a reference work, primarily for Bell System public relations people, and for telephone employees who frequently receive queries from the public. The items shown are brief, non-technical and include answers to many frequently asked questions. Reference material is listed for many of the items.

In a work of this size, omissions are inevitable. And while every effort was made to keep the material as accurate as possible, errors in source material may cause some date conflicts.

- - - - -

"Events..." was originally published in 1958 and was revised and expanded periodically at least into the 1990s, and renamed "Events in Telecommunications History."
Visit: paul-f.com         WE 500  Design_Line

.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2013, 01:54:12 PM »
I have found 302s marked "302XG" which had F4 handsets. Presumably, these were intended for long loops (Zone 5). So why didn't they just install a 500? Who knows?

I would like to know if it was "Mr. Williams" or some other manager at Southern Bell who approved allowing 5302Gs with G-1 handsets (with T1 and U1 units) to be used close to the central office. I can still remember the loud sidetone when I was a kid, almost like talking on a 102 or 51AL (with sidetone subset)would be now.

Another thing to remember is that while BSPs sometimes show what items are allowed to be used as "equivalent"--this does not always mean that the current shop practices would have been to issue them that way.


Weren't the F4's were used mostly with the Continental and the Imperials which were re-purposed 202's that were used with 685A subsets based on 425 network technology?  I am not aware that they would have normally been used the F4 or with a 302 or 5302.

On long loops with the F4 or G1 (T1/U1 combination) with a 302 or 5302, you would get 500-like results, especially with a G1 with the better dsigned handle.

On medium loops you would have louder than normal volume in the receiver. 

Close to the CO on short loops, the 5302 with the induction coil and no attenuation capabilities that the 500 had would give the subscriber uncomfortably loud volume of not only what they hear from the distant end, but sidetone too.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2013, 02:57:39 PM »
That table is also not...*complete." Notice what is not listed at all: the GF handset---a G1 handle with transmitter and receiver units from an F1 handset.

So, in 1956, there were 3 versions of black 5302G, according to the table cited:

5302G-3F1  (F1 handset)
5302G-3F4  (F4 handset)
5302G-3G    (G1 handset)

Perhaps the GF handset was not yet developed in 1956?

Personally, I don't recall ever seeing any sets marked 5302G-3F1 or 5302G-3F4, but I have seen 5302G-GF. I'll take a look at the ones in my shed and update this if I ever find an F4 on a 5302 or even a set marked -3F4.

... The correct handset for a 5302 is either an F1 or a GF, and not F4 or nor G1--i.e., no conversion  of the F1 [to F4] is necessary.

That is not quite correct, or complete is a better term.  BSP C32.568 Issue 1 of May 1956 provides a table (A) of the 5300/5400 set components and it lists the 'standard' handsets as  F1G-3, F4A-3, and G1A-3.

Also, I just found the reference I was looking for.  It is the 1974 issue of AT&T's 'Events in Telephone History'.  It states that on August 26, 1955 "Developments completed to convert 300-type handsets to give most of characteristics of 500-type."
I interpret this as marking the birth of the F4 handset.

What this does not confirm is the actual launch of the 5300/5400 series. It could well be that some were marked before August, as we know that production always took place sometime well before official launch, as it would be very embarrassing not to have enough supply when orders for kits come in.

"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2013, 03:07:24 PM »
Weren't the F4's were used mostly with the Continental and the Imperials which were re-purposed 202's that were used with 685A subsets based on 425 network technology?  I am not aware that they would have normally been used the F4 or with a 302 or 5302.

On long loops with the F4 or G1 (T1/U1 combination) with a 302 or 5302, you would get 500-like results, especially with a G1 with the better dsigned handle.

On medium loops you would have louder than normal volume in the receiver.  

Close to the CO on short loops, the 5302 with the induction coil and no attenuation capabilities that the 500 had would give the subscriber uncomfortably loud volume of not only what they hear from the distant end, but sidetone too.

Bill, there are lots of Imperials and Continentals with F4s--mostly 1955 for some reason. However, all the 202s I have found with F4 handsets have D4U mounting cords, which suggest they were used with 634A, 684BA or equivalent subsets.

I keep looking for a 202 with a 5-conductor cord which would have been needed for use with a 685A subset. Ironically, this is the only configuration approved under FCC Part 68 for grandfathered equipment.

So the question remains, as with 5302G-Gs (G1 handsets, not GF): were these T1/U1 units with older 302-type talk circuit approved for use on short loops, even though the transmitters and receivers were too efficient? Or were these like the "off label" prescriptions that "work" even though they are designed and approved for something else.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline G-Man

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2013, 03:17:50 PM »
 Bell System documents shows three zones:  

ZONE 2
300, 400, 5300, 5400 series instruments were to be used only up to 10K feet from the central office.

ZONE 5
220A, 500, 600, 700, 1500, 1600, 1700 series sets could be used on beyond 10K feet, until only 23ma was available.

ZONE L
23ma or less required 507, 509, 557, 559 sets or the use of 238A amplifiers.

“500-, 600-, or 700-type telephone sets are preferable and should be used for new
installations ; however, existing 300-, 400-, or 5300-type telephone sets are acceptable.”

5. SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS
  5.01      The   500J   and   K   telephone   sets   without
  311A equalizer should not be used in Zone 2
  because crosstalk and undesirable sidetone may be
 produced on short loops.  The 500J or K telephone
  with 311A equalizer is shown in Fig. 2.

  5.02      If   the   5300-type   telephone   set   with   the
   G-type    handset    produces    crosstalk    and
  sidetone   problems,   substitute   another   telephone
 set suitable for Zone 2.

 5.03   Do not use common and local battery sets
    on the same party line.

Offline G-Man

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Re: Now I can join the 5302/5304 Party!
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2013, 03:32:33 PM »
Further-

4. SPECIAL CONSIDERATION

4.01 The following sets may be used in Zones I and 2 when
supply conditions make it necessary, but are not required
for transmission reasons:

500-type telephone sets with equalizing network, i.e.,
500A, B, C, D, 501A, B, C, D, etc.

200-type hand telephone sets and coin collectors when
equipped with F4-, F5-, or G1-type handsets and connected
to 685-type subsets.

4.02 The following sets should not be used in Zones I and.2,
or at on-premise PBX stations because their uncontrolled
gain may produce undesirable crosstalk and sidetone
effects when used on short loops:

500-type telephone sets without equalizing network, i.e.,
500J, 500K, 501J, and 501K.

200-type hand telephone sets and coin collectors equipped
with F4,, F5-, and G1-type handsets when connected to
other than 687-type subsets.

300-, 400-, 5300-, and 5400-type telephone sets, equipped
with F4-, F5-, and G1-type handsets.

4.03 To obtain the transmission equivalent of a 500-type
telephone set and the necessary equalization on short
loops, coin collectors and  200-type hand telephone sets may be
equipped with G1-type handsets and connected to 685-iype
subsets.

4.04 The 4- and 5-type dials should be used only in Zones
I and 2 because the percentage of break time of the
pulsing contacts may cause dialing failures. Therefore, sets
equipped with 4- or 5-type dials should not be equipped with
F4-, F5-, or G1-type handsets.

4.05 In Zone 5, when an amplifier is indicated, use only
sets equipped with transistorized amplifiers, i.e.,532-,
533-, 535-, and 536-type telephone sets.

4.06 In Zone 5, if transmission complaints due to high
sidetone are received when F4- or F,S-type handsets are
used, they should be replaced with 500-type telephone sets.

4.07 Local battery sets normally require two dry cells of
battery, If additional transmitting gain is needed, three
dry cells may be used with F1 transmitter units, but not with
the T1 unit.

4.08 In local battery talking and magneto sets, when an
H-type receiver unit is used the receiver circuit must.
be dry.