Author Topic: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller  (Read 12022 times)

Offline Spanish_phones

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Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« on: December 03, 2013, 08:14:12 PM »
Hi everyone!

I have a Spanish payphone, I bought a few months ago, and I have restored it to look good and work. The problem that I have is I would like to make it work as it used to back in the sixties, and I'll need help to develop a controller (as the ones you have for USA payphones).

They used to work like this:

· You hung up, and have dial tone but yo cannot dial (it works like this right now)
· You put at least one token, you still have dial tone, then you can dial (so far, so good)
· When the phone you're calling to answers, the payphone collects the first token (this doesn't happen)
· Then, while you're talking on the phone, each 1 minute more or less ( I really don't now the time period), one token was collected by the payphone (this neither happen)
· Then you have to possibilities:

1: You hung up and still have tokens in the visor: the unused tokens don't collect and exit from the front door (this works)
2: if the last token is collected while talking, a beeeep is heard on the transmitter and the call is down. (this doesn't happen)

Every single part on the payphone is in perfect condition, so the only thing that I need is a payphone controller to make the coil collect the tokens: the first when the phone call is answered and the rest ones while talking by a certain period of time, and the beeep with the last one. I hope somebody can help me with this.

Here are photos of it, the wiring diagrams and the link of the post I made of it. In the last photo you can see a big cylinder: that's the "coil" that collects the tokens.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10569.0

Thank you very much to every of you

Iñaki

Offline G-Man

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2013, 01:39:17 AM »
The method of supervision of coins/tokens for this type of payphone is entirely different than that used for American coin-telephones.

It most likely uses the Karlsen system which was widely used in Asia and Europe while U.S. payphones used either +/-110 Vdc (in some cases, polarity reversals as well) for refund/collect functions while it appears that yours relied on separate timing pulses from the central office.
 
A description of this method is the TCI Library.

I believe another member of this forum, located in one of the Nordic countries was successful in replicating this function for his payphones, so perhaps he will provide further input.
Thanks

Offline dsk

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2013, 03:47:13 PM »
The easiest thing to try, are polarity reversal, commonly used in many European countries.
I use an old Lego switch for testing.

dsk

Offline Spanish_phones

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2013, 05:57:23 PM »
I already did that! With the polarity reversed, the collect mechanism acts, and if I disconnect the current, it stops acting. But with the polarity reversed, the other electrical components doesn't work, In other words, you cannot dial for example.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2013, 09:06:58 PM »
I already did that! With the polarity reversed, the collect mechanism acts, and if I disconnect the current, it stops acting. But with the polarity reversed, the other electrical components doesn't work, In other words, you cannot dial for example.

Then would the controller need to *momentarily* reverse the polarity at certain intervals, so that one token would be collected each time this happens?
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline G-Man

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2013, 09:43:26 PM »
I’ll reiterate:

It most likely uses the Karlsen system which was widely used in Asia and Europe while U.S. payphones used either +/-110 Vdc (in some cases, polarity reversals as well) for refund/collect functions while it appears that yours relied on separate timing pulses from the central office.

A description of this method is the TCI Library.

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 10:11:13 PM »
A description of this [Karlsen] method is the TCI Library.[/i]

For the search engine challenged, can you supply a link?

Thanks
Jack

Offline poplar1

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 10:41:35 PM »
I’ll reiterate:

It most likely uses the Karlsen system which was widely used in Asia and Europe while U.S. payphones used either +/-110 Vdc (in some cases, polarity reversals as well) for refund/collect functions while it appears that yours relied on separate timing pulses from the central office.

A description of this method is the TCI Library.


Sorry, but I didn't understand whether "timing pulses" meant reversals or just interruptions of battery.
Since he indicated that reversing battery caused the phone to collect a token, I was merely wondering whether momentary *pole reversing* function could be incorporated into the controller.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 10:47:08 PM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline G-Man

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 11:40:11 PM »
There were several pulse schemes employed including the use of different frequencies and polarities, but the general description provided below gives an overview.

Since there is a rectifier is one of the components it likely uses polarity to determine when the tokens should be collected, but first the model number should be supplied so that the precise method used for this payphone can be determined.

Otherwise it would be the same as attempting to guess what type of coin-control supervision that an unidentified American payphone used.

The second of the aforementioned categories is one that has hitherto not seen significant usage in the United States. It employs a special type of coin station set which allows the calling customer to deposit coins throughout the call conversation.

In prior art versions of this "escrow" type of coin station the rates for calls are calculated at the central office by translating the call signalling dial pulses sent by the calling customer. Rate analysis is conducted at the central office in accordance with various factors such as distance, time of day, etc.

With the rate thus determined, the central office returns metering impulses, preferably uniformly spaced in time, to the station set to operate a coin collecting relay therein.

Offline Spanish_phones

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 05:55:35 AM »
Thank to all of you!

I think I understood almost everything you said. The controller should have a pole reversing automatic switch or something similar. But It has to be really fast, if not, the call will end up. The switch should do: on-off just the time to collect the token and not end up the phonecall.

G-man, you said you need the model number, the only things that I know are the codes inside of the payphone, the ones you can see in the photos I posted at the beginning. Here you are:

                                          5580-A                                   5543-A

APARATO DE ABONADO 5536-A                           PS-8222 (3ª)  

The first ones are in the plastic cover of the wiring. I think are related to the electric components is has. The other ones, are printed in the black wiring diagram. I think the bold one refers to the payphone model, here is the link of the Spanish historic telephones, and it says the model is the one I wrote in bold letters:

http://www.fundacion.telefonica.com/es/arte_cultura/patrimonio_ht/detalle/14
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 04:42:21 PM by Spanish_phones »

Offline dsk

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2013, 02:49:10 PM »
Hi
I'm trying to understand the diagram.
As far as I understand:
You connect positive wire to L1. current travels trough hook-switch, induction coil 1-2, transmitter, dial, diode, to L2 (neg line).  You may not dial until the token opens the contacts marked L. (shorts dial until token entered the switch mechanism)

When the current are reversed the token is collected, but the diode blocks current, and all current has to go trough the relay windings. Since one winding are 5000 ohms, its to high resistance to keep the line engaged.  (This was probably prevented by the original equipment at the exchange.)

The 5000 ohms winding are shortened by contact C so it would be interesting to know in what state this contact set opens and closes.

All this makes me sure that the only way to operate this one is by a short reverse pulse.
I see no way it could send a signal causing the beep at last token used.

dsk


Offline dsk

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2013, 05:29:15 PM »
I tried to simplify the diagram, so I removed the dial shunting circuits.
Then we ends up with a quite ordinary voice circuit, quite similar to W.E. 302.
The dial are a typical European version, probably equal to most Antwerp dials.

The last parts are: (whats making a payphone)
- the relay (token collecting unit) with 2 windings and the diode.
- the contact un-shortening the dial pulse contact when at least one token has entered the system.
- and the mystery contact marked C

dsk
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 05:33:39 PM by dsk »

Offline Spanish_phones

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2013, 10:23:22 PM »
dsk, you're right!

The token relay has points 1, 2, 3 and 4, and I think is commanded by L and C contacts and the polarity reversal

The L contact opens when the first token is placed
When the phone starts collecting,  the token relay acts, its passes the token a little bit further, so contact C is closed with the token is being collected
Then, the relay should act on the other way, or just return to it's repose position, to finally collect the token and retain the next token in L place, and wait until the time passes to collect the next one.

So, I think C acts in collecting tokens, returning the relay to it's repose position.
But, there is one thing I still don't understand. How does the payphone end the phone call when the last token is collected, if you have dial tone when no tokens are inserted?

Thank you so far, each post I know more about how it works ;)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 10:27:19 PM by Spanish_phones »

Offline xhausted110

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2013, 12:40:33 AM »
dsk, you're right!

The token relay has points 1, 2, 3 and 4, and I think is commanded by L and C contacts and the polarity reversal

The L contact opens when the first token is placed
When the phone starts collecting,  the token relay acts, its passes the token a little bit further, so contact C is closed with the token is being collected
Then, the relay should act on the other way, or just return to it's repose position, to finally collect the token and retain the next token in L place, and wait until the time passes to collect the next one.

So, I think C acts in collecting tokens, returning the relay to it's repose position.
But, there is one thing I still don't understand. How does the payphone end the phone call when the last token is collected, if you have dial tone when no tokens are inserted?

Thank you so far, each post I know more about how it works ;)

I would think that the central office would disconnect the call, requiring you to hang up, and thus reset the phone.
- Evan

youtube: youtube.com/user/thecooldude9999

Offline dsk

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2013, 03:41:44 AM »
This is an exiting learning process.   :)

It may be like this.
Normal polarity...token inserted, and L opens. You may dial.
When party answers, polarity reverses. Relay acts, and C closes when token is passed on mechanical step. 100 ohms winding keeps the relay in this position, and lets the signal pass. (This should happens fast enough to not break the connection, but a modern line may sense it as a short flash. (100 millisecond are one std. EU value)
Conversation keeps on until a new signal (not sure how) comes from the exchange, or you hang up.

The hook-switch is mechanically connected to the token mechanism, and lets the rest of the coins return to tray.
The lost current or normal polarity current resets the relay and collect the coin resting on C contacts.

(A short of the line, or drop of voltage for a few millisecond (50-100???), may let the phone collect a new token. Still reversed voltage all the time)

dsk