Author Topic: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller  (Read 11967 times)

Offline dsk

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2013, 11:13:58 AM »
The European variant of flash are the R or Recall button. This is a short break.
According to this page: http://tinyurl.com/qdo9s79   about 75 milliseconds. (I would have said 80-120 mS)
The voltage reversal might be misunderstood as this short pulse.

dsk

I have even got a regular New York number :-) 646 570 1796

Offline dsk

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2013, 02:18:08 PM »
I guess I have the idea to a working solution.  :D

We have to trust some timers, just as the payphone controllers made for the North American 3-slots.

The Relay R will draw after you lift the receiver, it starts the timer 1 and after the time its set on ( a little more than the time needed for dialing) , it moves the contacts W, X an Z. It is important to close X before y opens.

When this happens, the vice path will go trough the line transformer, (or alternative 2 coils and a capacitor) A small transformer with a center tapped 230V primary will do (or 2x 115V) Leave other windings open. The battery or noiseless power supply of 40-50V (30 milliamps are enough or 5x 9V batteries?) are put in opposite polarity of the exchange. This will give a collect of the first token, The relay R with a capacitor C of suitable size will remain engaged long enough to let the 5000 ohms winding be shunted, and the circuit remains in operation.

Timer 1 has to start the timer 2 who gives a short 1/2 second? pulse to T2 contact let us say every 3 minutes to collect a new token.

When you hang up, the relay R returns to normal position (after a delay of e.g. 1 sec) and we are back to normal.
(The remaining tokens are returned.)

dsk
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 02:22:29 PM by dsk »

I have even got a regular New York number :-) 646 570 1796

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2013, 07:03:02 PM »
The European variant of flash are the R or Recall button. This is a short break.
According to this page: http://tinyurl.com/qdo9s79   about 75 milliseconds. (I would have said 80-120 mS)
The voltage reversal might be misunderstood as this short pulse.

dsk

Dsk,

This is where I think the accidental "flash" is (attachment). If the controller is based on using an ATA (for the answer supervision) this might not happen but if it does, it can be masked. I think a controller is now straight forward but not trivial because of the need to detect no coin and terminate the call.

The alternative is to use the approach that many of the US three slot controllers use and that is to forget the exchange coin collection and answer supervision. Some just execute a delay after detecting payphone off hook and assume that the called party answered.

I would prefer an accurate controller myself but I'll leave the details to you guys so as not to confuse the issue.

Regards
Jack

Offline dsk

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2013, 03:29:10 AM »
Jack I think you are right. (Except for 100 ohms would probably be 700 if the phone itself are 600) The 600 ohms value are more or less impedance, and will be pretty much lower as seen as DC resistance. maybe less than 300, but this will not change what you have figured out in your drawing.

Since we have no answer detection, we have to use a timer.  (timer 1, long enough to finish dialing, but not long enough to not needing to pay at all)

When no more coins in the phone, the resistance will be constant at the 5000+ ohms level, and the voice quality will be hopeless, but the R will either er keep holding, or have a great delay before the the timer circuits stops working, so the call will be understood as broken.

dsk


I have even got a regular New York number :-) 646 570 1796

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2013, 06:59:19 AM »
Jack I think you are right. (Except for 100 ohms would probably be 700 if the phone itself are 600) The 600 ohms value are more or less impedance, and will be pretty much lower as seen as DC resistance. maybe less than 300, but this will not change what you have figured out in your drawing.

Yes, I forgot to add the telephone component resistances – oops.

Quote
Since we have no answer detection, we have to use a timer.  (timer 1, long enough to finish dialing, but not long enough to not needing to pay at all)

If you want the controller to work on the PSTN you don't have much choice but to use a timer. You could use voice detection but it is quite difficult to implement a DSP with relays.

How are you going to start the answer timer? Will you detect loop current when the handset is lifted? With suitable pulse width filtering, you could use the same loop current detection circuit to detect no token.

Quote
When no more coins in the phone, the resistance will be constant at the 5000+ ohms level, and the voice quality will be hopeless, but the R will either er keep holding, or have a great delay before the the timer circuits stops working, so the call will be understood as broken.

That would be the simplest solution. Again, you could detect the 5k loop resistance and terminate the call but that just adds complexity.

I look forward to seeing it all come together.

Regards
Jack

Offline Spanish_phones

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2013, 12:32:45 PM »
OMG! I think the one who's lost now!

I'm not the greatest at English as you can see, that's why I get confused sometimes, because I misunderstand some things

The main problem is that is I do fleeting reversals, call is ended, and I have no information about how central used to control payphones.

Offline dsk

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2013, 04:52:44 PM »
 :) We take it a little bit slowly, my English are not perfect either.

It looks like you have a regular European line. It may be smaller variations, like ring cadences, (length and rhythm of ringing) Ringing frequency, and voltage, but not more than it should be almost equal.

I guess I want you to try to dig out what you hide in the basement, or wherever you hide old things who could be of interest. Please look for a transformer of any size who has 2 almost equal windings, or/and some coils, relays.... Things you may use to build the circuit in the drawing.  we may start with manual timing, and later build/buy timers.

A power-supply are probably the most difficult part, 5  9 volts batteries for testing are OK, but they will not last for hours.  4 old car batteries could probably be found for free, but are huge and heavy. the capacitors, and rectifier (diodes) are probably available on a garbage printed circuit.  etc. etc.

By the way, its not just to test on your phone every time I get an idea, but it might be just working (in your existing setup) with a resistor in parallel with the 5000 ohms winding. The resistor should be as low ohmic value as possible ,but still not so great that the relay not will move.  (I would tried with about 5000 ohms as a start.)

dsk
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 12:39:47 AM by dsk »

I have even got a regular New York number :-) 646 570 1796

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2013, 06:27:21 PM »
Iñaki,

The main problem is that is I do fleeting reversals, call is ended, and I have no information about how central used to control payphones.

I am fairly certain that your phone works as I described. The problem is that your phone line is not meant for (old) payphones AND it accepts a "flash". A flash is used, for example, to get dial tone within (during) a call to make a conference call or an enquiry. Your modern phones may have a "flash button" that you press for special exchange services.

When you do a fleeting reversal to collect a token, there is a brief moment where the line resistance is quite high and the exchange (incorrectly) interprets this as a flash and you are presented with tone from the exchange. When you collect the next token, the exchange sees a second flash and restores the original call.

The controller will have to mask this effect so that you can continue the call between all token collections. I think this is what Dsk is looking at.

I hope this is a bit clearer.

Regards
Jack


Offline dsk

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2014, 03:03:46 PM »
 :) I have had some time for thinking and fettling. (And eBay shopping)
My payphone are simpler, so I have to deposit a coin when I hear party answers, and then again every 2-1/2 min.

The relay are so extremely sensitive so did not work with only one shunting diode, the other series diode had to be put in.
It will only be a short line so I skipped the possibility of making a balanced line.


This works  here.

dsk
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 03:11:54 PM by dsk »

I have even got a regular New York number :-) 646 570 1796

Offline dsk

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2014, 09:49:03 AM »
If you in Linksys/Sipura use this dial tone  200@-10,233@-10; 30(*/0/1+2) you get a purring sound.
The ATA setup could be like this:

dsk
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 09:55:09 AM by dsk »

I have even got a regular New York number :-) 646 570 1796

Offline Kimball321

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2015, 07:24:31 PM »
Even though this topic is a little old I think I just found something that may work as a controller for this payphone.  I think the Japanese payphones this is designed to work with work the same way as this Spanish one, ie one quick polarity reversal equals one coin collected.

http://www.idknet.co.jp/product/5235/

May be able to buy one second hand from a Japanese auction website and if they wont ship internationally there are services you can purchase it through that will.

http://www.noppin.com/
I collect payphones :)

Offline Spanish_phones

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2016, 07:22:07 AM »
Well... after one year of delay, I'm back jajaja

Thank you Kimball for the links... buf I don't know japanese... :(

My payphone still doesn't have a controller....

Offline Kimball321

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Re: Spanish Payphone, I need help to make a controller
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2016, 05:25:41 PM »
That's what Google translate is for.  ;D
I collect payphones :)