Author Topic: AE 50 and REN  (Read 1311 times)

Offline mrbugsir

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AE 50 and REN
« on: February 19, 2014, 01:59:21 AM »
(I am not sure if this topic belongs here or Panasonic (PBX) Key Systems)

I recently acquired a beat-up Automatic Electric 50 Jukebox. After attaching a phone line and moving the ringer wire from G to L2, it rings beautifully on the outside line. However, when I plug it into a Panasonic TD816, it doesn't ring. It tries to ring. The rod between the coils wiggles back and forth, just not far enough for the striker to hit the bells.

I don't have this problem with any of the other phones,  a WE 302 or an AE 40. Maybe the AE 50 requires more REN than the PBX puts out (I tried using various ports, no other phones are on the same port).

I have been trying to figure out how much REN each of the PBX's ports puts out, but so far nothing conclusive. Ultimately, I'd have the AE50 connected to the PBX so maybe an adjustment of the ringer might suffice, but I'd prefer not to do that in case it was ever plugged directly into an outside line in the future.

Offline Babybearjs

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Re: AE 50 and REN
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2014, 04:33:53 AM »
try "tuning" the bells.... another words, move the gongs closer together so the hammer will hit them.... if that doesn't work, then you'll have to add another capacitor of the same value, wired in parallel with the existing capacitor... (it doubles the cap value) I had this problem too and these were some of the solutions I found to work.
John

Offline poplar1

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Re: AE 50 and REN
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2014, 08:08:44 AM »
If this is a straight line ringer, adjusting the tension of the biasing spring may help.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Contempra

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Re: AE 50 and REN
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2014, 08:17:51 AM »
If this is a straight line ringer, adjusting the tension of the biasing spring may help.



It was even my problem on one of my phones among others and by working a little bias spring, it sounds very good and strong.

Denis

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: AE 50 and REN
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2014, 03:14:47 PM »
A true outside line provided by a legacy central office will ring at 20 Hz at a voltage of about 75 volts AC.  I am not familiar with the PBX you named, but some PBX's ring using 30Hz rather than 20.

I have a Panasonic 616 PBX, and to tell you the truth, I haven't even checked the specs to see what frequency it rings at.  I do know that my 616 has enough current to ring many phones, so the question of how many REN's does it "put out" has never been an issue for me.  It rings too many phones in the view of my wife!

If two conditions exist, you may have a problem.  First, if the ringer is not a straight-line ringer, but a frequency ringer tuned to 20Hz, it will ring great at EXACTLY 20 Hz, but only wiggle at 30 Hz.  Second, if your PBX rings at 30Hz, it will ring any straight-line ringer like crazy, but not a frequency selective ringer tuned specifically to 20 Hz. 

All this is to say that a frequency ringer tuned to 20 Hz is not the same animal as a true straight-line ringer.

Check to see if your Panasonic box will ring any other phone with a straigh-line ringer.  Check the specs of the Panasonic to see what frequency it rings at.  Lastly, post a good photo of the ringer and any number of us should be able to tell you if it is a tru straight-line ringer or a frequency ringer tuned to 20 Hz. 
-Bill G

Offline mrbugsir

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Re: AE 50 and REN
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2014, 06:09:56 PM »
Thanks for your responses, everyone.

Here is the actual ringer (I flipped the image upside down)
[i m g width=712 height=950]http://i.imgur.com/aI31y1p.jpg[ / i m g]
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The installation guide specification section of the PBX stated ring voltage is "70 Vrms at 25 Hz depending on the Ringing Load".

I am sort of new at this, but isn't this a 20 Hz ringer, trying to be rung at 25 Hz? Is that enough of a difference to cause the problem?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 08:23:50 PM by TelePlay »

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: AE 50 and REN
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2014, 07:31:24 PM »
Quote
I am sort of new at this, but isn't this a 20 Hz ringer, trying to be rung at 25 Hz? Is that enough of a difference to cause the problem?

In terms of frequency selective ringers, the answer is yes.  They can be very selective.  Your ringer does appear to be a frequency selective ringer.  By adjusting the position of the clapper weight and perhaps other adjustments, you might get it to work effectively on 25~ but then it probably would be less than responsive back at 20~  (the ~ symbol meaning Hertz or Hz or Cycles)

Others on this forum have had some success in re-tuning frequency selective ringers.  Fortunately a 20~ frequency ringer should be easier to work with to get it to respond at 25~ than a 66~ ringer would be.

Perhaps others will have some suggestions for you.  Straight line ringers for an AE50 are somewhat scarce because many of them were made with frequency ringers and now everyone needs a straight line ringer for today's applications.  No systems in use today use frequency selective ringers any more.
-Bill G

Offline dsk

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Re: AE 50 and REN
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2014, 10:33:07 AM »
The tuned ringers has impressed me several times, they are extremely well tuned, the stiffness of the spring (acting as hings for the clapper) the weight (or mass) of the hammer and the capacitor seems to be the clue.
This 20 Hz ringer should work direct on a north American line, but not at European lines.
Tuning this are not easy, but you could try to move the hammer in or out to to the extreme but still hitting the gong, loosen the nuts holding the spring, adjusting the gongs etc. You will get some ringing but not perfect.

dsk

Offline Scotophor

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Re: AE 50 and REN
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2014, 12:59:19 AM »
Physics dictates that if the ringer arm is physically tuned to 20 Hz, you will need to shorten it to re-tune it to 25 Hz. (Move the clapper/weight closer to the pivot point). Another possibility is if there is a spring tension adjustment, increasing the tension will increase the resonant frequency.

If the coils and capacitor also currently form a 20 Hz resonant circuit, decreasing the capacitance should also increase the ringing amplitude at 25 Hz.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 01:01:47 AM by Scotophor »
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Offline poplar1

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Re: AE 50 and REN
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2014, 08:04:42 AM »
Good point about moving the brass clapper and changing the capacitor value to produce a resonant circuit.

Biasing springs (to adjust tension) are found only on straight line ringers used on common battery lines. 
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.