Author Topic: Date ranges for WE Parts  (Read 43226 times)

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #135 on: May 08, 2016, 12:21:05 PM »
Here is an F1 transmitter made in August 1949.
It is marked  8-49-I

I believe this is the earliest or one of the earliest components that I have found with the –I suffix.

Originally, when I got curious about these markings, I believed I had only found the –I marking on ringers and bases. But they are present on other components that have nothing to do with the electrical or magnetic properties of the ringers.  I also have measured –I-marked ringers twice in terms of their impedance characteristics as a function of frequency, and the differences with 'normal' ringers appear to be within the errors of measurement, or within reasonable tolerances of specs.

I have speculated that the S– prefix indicated the manufacturing location in St. Paul, MN, which was purchased by WECo in 1944 to reestablish post-war telephone production. The observations indicate the S– prefix is present on potentially all types of components that have ink-stamped markings, and they are only observed for the time that appears reasonable that the plant was producing subscriber telephone sets.  During the war, the Hawthorne plant, which had produced the majority or all telephone sets previously, was rapidly converted to manufacturing war-time equipment.  By November 1942 telephone production seized on orders from the War Production Board.

After the WPB eased restrictions, Hawthorne was freed once again for some of its traditional functions, and reports exist that describe equipment being moved from St. Paul to Hawthorne during weekends and nights, on trucks making the four or so hour drive, to resume production on Monday without much interruption of productivity.

Indeed, some time—perhaps a year or more?—after the appearance of the S– prefixes, we find H– prefixes on various components.

By my observations, the –I suffices only exist on 300-series components made between 2nd half of 1949 and the early 50s.

Indianapolis officially opened in Fall of 1950, by my readings of Bell sources.  Given the size of the place, I would say it is unreasonable that they didn't have any operations there in various subunits previous to the official opening.   Only 18 months after the opening, they had already produced five million telephone there (by June 1952).

This site however claims that the plant opened in 1948: http://www.chipsetc.com/att--bell-labs--western-electric.html

Does the –I suffix denote manufacturing in Indianapolis?

« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 09:56:02 PM by unbeldi »

Offline poplar1

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #136 on: May 08, 2016, 01:40:37 PM »
Updated Reply #99 Table:

" A" suffix --                                    S-3-47A - 9-48A
         Indicates an aluminum baseplate, or a ringer that has been adjusted so that it will work properly with an aluminum baseplate.
   
"  H-" prefix -- Hawthorne?              H-1-46 - H-3-46
 
"  I-"  prefix/suffix -- Indianapolis?   8-49-I -  4-52-I

" S-"  prefix -- St. Paul, MN?             S-12-44 --   S-3-47A

Examples of A-, H-, I- and S- markings found on WE parts, especially 302s:

1944:
Ringer, Baseplate:  S-12-44


1945:
Ringer:       S-1-45, S-4-45, S-7-45, S-12-45
Transmitter: S8/45

1946:
Dial:    H-1-46  H-3-46
Ringer: S-2-46, S-6-46
Baseplate: S-6-46

1947:
Baseplate: S-3-47A, 11-47A,
Ringer:      S-3-47A

1948:
Baseplate, ringer 2-48-A
Baseplate: 9-48A

1949:

F1 Transmitter Unit:
8-49-I
Base, ringer:   12-49-I
Induction coil:  IV-49 I

 

1950:   
Dial:  I-1-50
Ringer  1-50-I  --
6-50-I
Baseplate 1-50-I -- 6-50-I
Induction coil:   II 50 I
F1 Transmitter Unit:  1-50-I -- 2-50-I

1951:
F1 Transmitter Unit: 8-51-I

1952
Ringer: 2-52-I -- 4-52-I

Baseplate: 2-52-I, 3-52-I, 4-52-I

1953:
Baseplate and Ringer:  4-53-I


500 Set:

Dial: 7D 1-53 I
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 12:37:26 PM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #137 on: May 08, 2016, 06:10:04 PM »
Do you recall where this entry came from?

1953:
Baseplate and Ringer:  4-53-I

Ok, I answered my own question.  It came from me in post 102.
I have to withdraw that. Yesterday I noticed that I had one ringer marked in my documentation as 4-53-I, but when checking the phone, I found this was not so, and it is only 4-53, no I.
It looked suspicious to me when I saw it yesterday in my documentation, and now on your table as well.
It would certainly be the latest such date, but I do believe 1952 was the last year of these I-markings.
Sorry about that.

An entry I just came across for another F1 transmitter is:
F1, 8-51-I

« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 06:21:38 PM by unbeldi »

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #138 on: May 08, 2016, 06:28:29 PM »
For an entry in 1952, we have this 302: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15975.msg165421#msg165421

ringer and base: 4-52-I

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #139 on: May 08, 2016, 06:39:02 PM »
Another 302:

302 Ringer and base:  2-52-I


...and I have another base marked 3-52-I, on which the ringer was replaced.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 06:45:03 PM by unbeldi »

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #140 on: May 08, 2016, 06:52:02 PM »
Here is a 5302 base dated 6-50

Ringer, base, and induction coil:   6-50-I,  II 50 I

I also have a 6-50 base on an old-rose 302, which does NOT have the –I, but it has a 2-50-I F1 transmitter.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 08:52:19 PM by unbeldi »

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #141 on: May 08, 2016, 07:06:13 PM »
302 Base, ringer, and induction coil:
12-49-I,   IV-49-I


I think I covered every year now, 1949, 1950, 1951, and 1952, with at least one part.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 07:14:11 PM by unbeldi »

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #142 on: May 08, 2016, 07:21:53 PM »
From these base plate pictures it is also apparent that by 1952 Western Electric changed their method of corrosion protection on many of the parts.  Ringer frames, condenser brackets, screws  now have a yellowish or golden finish, presumably some cadmium-based coating.

Cadmium coatings protect by being preferentially corroded themselves instead of the substrate they are to protect, even when a small area of the protected metal is exposed.

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #143 on: May 08, 2016, 08:52:03 PM »
Here is a 5302 base dated 6-50

Ringer, base, and induction coil:   6-50-I,  II 50 I

I also have a 6-50 base on an old-rose 302, which does NOT have the –I, but it has a 2-50-I F1 transmitter.

Having bases marked with and without the –I in the same month leaves the question open, whether they were made in different places, especially as one of them was found on a color 302 (without I).   Were the color 302s made in a different place all this time from 1949?

Offline poplar1

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #144 on: May 09, 2016, 12:22:16 PM »
Trying to find examples of factory original 302 sets with E1-type handsets, I'm coming up short. If you have any examples, please share. Thanks



1936-1937 302s
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2015, 11:50:30 AM »  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13505.msg141193#msg141193
 
Early 302s might have E1E or F1A handsets; and either 4H-, 5H-type dials or 82-A apparatus blanks. Small plungers and short "ears" were used on 1936 and most 1937 sets.


This table shows the parts used on unmodified sets as found.

Base      Dial/      Number     Handset      Grooved/    Rec.       Xmtr.       Handset           Mtg          Mpc.         Rec               Ind.
pan       blank      Plate                       Not grooved                                  Cord             Cord                         Cap               Coil


E1E and 4H (Est. IV 36 -- I 37)
 

IV 36      4H        149B            E1E             Not        I 36           ?              x                  x                                                   *
             III 36
Feet not original -- Sold for $560 (Ebay 2015-01-25 item number: 251798720172)
www.ebay.com/itm/251798720172
                                                                                                           H3C              D4S
I 37      82A-3       N/A          E1E            Not           I 37        1/37          '37              I 37            137                                *
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13433.0
Sold for $437 (Ebay 2015-01-18)

not sure how original this one is, since the dial has the repair shop green label:
I 37     4H            149B            E1E               Not
           IV 36        IV 36            1-37
no sale 5/17/16 ebay
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-1937-WORKING-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-302-EXCELLENT-WITH-MATCHING-NUMBERS-/111995903935 
   
====================================================================

E1E  or F1A (ungrooved) , 4H or 5H (Est. 3/37 -- 9/37)


Base      Dial/      Number     Handset      Grooved/    Rec.       Xmtr.       Handset           Mtg          Mpc.         Rec               Ind.
pan       blank      Plate                       Not grooved                                  Cord             Cord                         Cap               Coil


3-37     4H                            F1A                 Not
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10046.msg106999#msg106999

4-37    5H          149B          E1E                Yes         I 37      3/37
                           I 37
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17761.msg183522#msg183522


5-37    82-A      N/A          E1E               ?                                     
                                            5-37

6-37     4H       149B          F1A              Not
                        II 37        6 08 37

6-37    5H         149B         F1A              Not
          II 37                                                                                                                                                               II 37
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10968.0
Sold for $499.99--new old stock (except hs cord) with box

7-37        5H        149B         F1A            Not
p2016-04-10
http://www.ebay.com/itm/182078924998 $292

9-37      2>4       132             F1A           Not       8-13-37     9/37     II 37                x                              9 03 37           III 37
                                           9?-?-37     
Sold for $152.50 (Ebay 2015-01-19)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151549117049

ADDITIONAL:
9-37     5H         149B          F1A              Not     
            III 37                      9-29-37
listed 5-22-16 Ebay SOLD 5/29/16 for $294.99 seller mark4589

http://www.ebay.com/itm/112005325104
====================================================================================================
Field Trial Sets with Grooved F1A handsets and small plungers (Est. 6/37-10/37)/(About 7/37?)


Base      Dial/      Number     Handset      Grooved/    Rec.       Xmtr.       Handset           Mtg          Mpc.         Rec               Ind.
pan       blank      Plate                       Not grooved                                  Cord             Cord                         Cap               Coil


6-37       5H                        F1A              YES       6 24 -37  8/36                                                             6 15 37
                                          6 11 37
listed Ebay 2016-05-22

                                     
7-37      82-A      N/A           F1A             Yes         7-14-37   6/37        H3C                 x                                                  II 37
                                        6-12-37                                                     II 37
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11011.msg117827#msg117827
Bell Labs Trial Set #8224-- Sold for $150 at January, 2014 Maitland show

7-37            4H                  F1A            Yes
                III 37              6-03-37       
Field Trial Set #8121         

7-37               5H                   F1A               Yes
                       III 37                 7-?-37       
(June 2015 Ebay purchase--$89 (O-74)---mostly original)


10-37         5HB                  F1A             Yes         
                  IV 37           10-25-37
sold April, 2016 on Ebay # 111963912086

====================================================================================================

Standard: Grooved F1A handset, 5HB dial, large plungers (11-37 - up)


Base      Dial/      Number     Handset      Grooved/    Rec.       Xmtr.       Handset           Mtg          Mpc.         Rec               Ind.
pan       blank      Plate                       Not grooved                                  Cord             Cord                         Cap               Coil


11-37      5H                          F1A              Yes
     
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10046.msg106850#msg106850

« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 04:27:53 PM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #145 on: May 09, 2016, 03:35:37 PM »
Trying to find examples of factory original 302 sets with E1-type handsets, I'm coming up short. If you have any examples, please share. Thanks


Many, if not most of the so-called early and ever-so 'original' 302s that people sell on eBay, really aren't original at all, they are most likely falsified constructed sets, with other intentions than being authentic.
If it is shiny, one should probably be cautious. :-)
Many have E1 handsets without grooves, which IMHO were NOT used in the first half of 1937 anymore.  I do think all new E1 handsets by that time had grooves.

Offline Jim S.

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #146 on: May 09, 2016, 04:37:51 PM »
Trying to find examples of factory original 302 sets with E1-type handsets, I'm coming up short. If you have any examples, please share. Thanks



1936-1937 302s
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2015, 11:50:30 AM »  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13505.msg141193#msg141193
 
Early 302s might have E1E or F1A handsets; and either 4H-, 5H-type dials or 82-A apparatus blanks. Small plungers and short "ears" were used on 1936 and most 1937 sets.


This table shows the parts used on unmodified sets as found.

Base      Dial/      Number     Handset      Grooved/    Rec.       Xmtr.       Handset           Mtg          Mpc.         Rec               Ind.
pan       blank      Plate                       Not grooved                                  Cord             Cord                         Cap               Coil


E1E and 4H (Est. IV 36 -- I 37)
 

IV 36      4H        149B            E1E             Not        I 36           ?              x                  x                                                   *
             III 36
Feet not original -- Sold for $560 (Ebay 2015-01-25 item number: 251798720172)
www.ebay.com/itm/251798720172
                                                                                                           H3C              D4S
I 37      82A-3       N/A          E1E            Not           I 37        1/37          '37              I 37            137                                *
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13433.0
Sold for $437 (Ebay 2015-01-18)
====================================================================

E1E  or F1A (ungrooved) , 4H or 5H (Est. 3/37 -- 9/37)

3-37 4H                              F1A                   Not
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10046.msg106999#msg106999

5-37    82-A      N/A          E1E               ?                                     
                                      5-37

6-37     4H               F1 6 08 37          Ungrooved
                      (149B II 37; dial date unknown)

6-37    5H         149B         F1A              Not
          II 37                                                                                                                                                               II 37
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10968.0
Sold for $499.99--new old stock (except hs cord) with box

7-37           5H            149B         F1A                  Not
p2016-04-10
http://www.ebay.com/itm/182078924998 $292

9-37      2>4       132             F1A           Not       8-13-37     9/37     II 37                x                              9 03 37           III 37
                                           9?-?-37     
Sold for $152.50 (Ebay 2015-01-19)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151549117049
====================================================================================================
Field Trial Sets with Grooved F1A handsets (About 7/37?)


7-37      82-A      N/A           F1A             Yes         7-14-37   6/37        H3C                 x                                                  II 37
                                      6-12-37                                                     II 37
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11011.msg117827#msg117827
Bell Labs Trial Set -- Sold for $150 at January, 2014 Maitland show

7-37            4H (III 37)                 F1                  grooved
Field Trial Set #8121

====================================================================================================

Standard: Grooved F1A handset, 5HB dial, large plungers (11-37 - up)

11-37      5H                          F1A              Yes
     
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10046.msg106850#msg106850



Here is a link to Hal Beldon's chart of small plunger 302's
http://vintagephone.com/HB302.htm

You can always  find the link on Paul's site.

Jim S.

BTW: I have a transparent small plunger non-vented housing for a 302. It has no dates.This is the only plastic small plunger set I know of.
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #147 on: May 09, 2016, 05:48:19 PM »
These date ranges are meant to expand on Paul's and Hal's charts by including actual sets as found, which have not been refurbished. I'm trying to get exact dates, not just "3rd Quarter" or "Late 1937."
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #148 on: May 09, 2016, 06:23:46 PM »
Many, if not most of the so-called early and ever-so 'original' 302s that people sell on eBay, really aren't original at all, they are most likely falsified constructed sets, with other intentions than being authentic.
If it is shiny, one should probably be cautious. :-)
Many have E1 handsets without grooves, which IMHO were NOT used in the first half of 1937 anymore.  I do think all new E1 handsets by that time had grooves.


Not all E1-type handsets in 1937 had grooves:
11 02 37 is the latest reported without grooves
135 is the earliest grooved handle reported

I agree that many of the '37s on Ebay may have been "overrestored" by, for example, adding 4H dials or E1E handsets. It's much easier to locate 4H dials made in 1937, than 5Hs (with molded pulse pawl). Also, many more '37 E1s than  '37 F1s. 202s dated 1937 are also more plentiful than 302s from that year, at least in those that have survived. I believe that in 1937, these  new 202s still had only 4H dials or apparatus blanks,  and E1E handsets. [While by 1939, new 202s were factory equipped with F1 handsets, these may have been produced mainly for use with magneto subsets, and, as such, not furnished with dials.] So there may not have been 202s ever manufactured with 5H dials. (653A Wall sets did have 5H dials by 1939).

It's often possible to detect improper "cordage" --  the way the wires are dressed. A more detailed inventory should reveal lag times for individual parts, that an eager "restorer" might violate by having dates too closely matched. Sometimes, the phones being offered for sale are not even correctly wired. I'm trying to weed these out before adding them to the chart. Even if a few undetected non-originals slip in, there should still be a general timeline for parts used in factory-wired sets.



            E-type handsets:
            no groove handle  (1928-1937)
                 6-line logo with patent dates
                 9-line logo with patent dates                                 [228] - [Feb. '31]*
                 5-line logo
                      red patent numbers inside                              *[May '31] - [MAR '32]
                      white pat. numbers inside                               [5/34]
                      mfr. date inside                                              636 - 11  02 37
            grooved handle (1935-1939)                                          135 (1/35) - 3 27 39
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 06:45:35 PM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline unbeldi

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WECo 302/304 parts date prefixes and suffixes
« Reply #149 on: May 09, 2016, 08:42:48 PM »
WECo 302/304 parts dates with prefixes or suffixes.

Background

Between 1944 and ca. 1952 many 302 parts have date stamps that add the letters A, H, I, and S as prefix or suffix, or both. This is an attempt to delineate the exact time frames when each of these letters were used, and to decode their meaning.

The letter A is documented in a Bell System Practice and means that the base plate is made from aluminum, rather than steel. This change effected the performance of ringers, which were consequently adjusted to compensate the effect.
Ref: BSP Section C31.208 i1 5406 B-Type Ringers; Maintenance, Paragraph 1.05.

No BSPs have been found that explain the letters S, H, and I.

My working hypothesis is that the letters S, H, and I indicated the manufacturing or assembly location of the sets or parts:
* S – St. Paul, MN
* H – Hawthorne Works
* I  – Indianapolis Works

This source states that Indianapolis Works opened in 1948. http://www.chipsetc.com/att--bell-labs--western-electric.html, and so does the AT&T TechChannel: http://techchannel.att.com/play-video.cfm/2011/9/19/AT&T-Archives-Draw-Me-a-Telephone



*Last update:  2017-05-19







Year         


S
(St. Paul MN ?)

H
(Hawthorne ?)   

I
(Indianapolis ?)

A
(Aluminum base)

1944S-11-44 base
 S-11-44 ringer
 S-IV-44 IND
 S 10-24-44 HA1,
 S11/44 transmitter,
 94 [9/44] solid F1 handle.

S-12-44 base, ringer
S12/44 transmitter
 





1945S1/45 transmitter
S-1-45 ringer
S-I-45 induction coil
S-4-45 ringer
S4-45 dial
S 511 45 Housing
 S-II-45 induction coil
 S-6-45 ringer

S-7-45 ringer
S7/45 transmitter
S8/45 transmitter
S-9-45 base, ringer
 S-III-45 induction coil
S-9-45 base, ringer
 S-III-45 induction coil

S-10-45 base, ringer
 S III 45 induction coil

S-10-45 base
 S-IV-45 induction coil
 S101345 98329 housing

S-12-45 ringer
S-12-45 base, ringer
S-12-45 base, ringer
 S-IV-45 induction coil

S-IV-45 IND 101B (link)

 





1946S-2-46 dial
S-4-46 base
S-4-46 dial
S-6-46 dial
S-6-46 base
S9/46 transmitter
S-10-46 base, ringer
 S10 18 46 housing
 S-IV-46 induction coil
 S10-46* 5H* dial
(link)
S-10-46 base
 S IV 46 Induction coil

S-12-46 base
H-1-46 dial
H-2-46 dial (loose, in box)
H-3-46 dial
H-3-46 dial (link)
H-5-46 dial (only, on 202)
H-6-46 dial 5H* (only)
H-7-46 dial (loose)
H-8-46 dial
H-8-46 dial in 6/46 302
H-10-46 5H* dial
 





1947S-3-47A base, ringer
    S-3-47A base, ringer
4-47-A base, ringer
4-47-A base, ringer
6-47-A base, ringer
6-47-A base, ringer (BU2-1412)
8-47-A base, ringer
10-47-A base, ringer
11-47A base





1948    A 2/48 ringer, 2/48 base (Al)
2-48-A base, ringer
5-48-A base, ringer
6-48-A base, ringer
9-48A base
9-48-A base, ringer





1949 *3-49-I base, ringer
 I 49 I  IND 101A

II 49 I IND 101A (in 634A)
6-49 I transmitter
6-29-49-I HA1 receiver
8-49-I base, ringer
 III 49 I induction coil

6-49-I A base, ringer
 II 49 I induction coil

8-49-I transmitter
9-49-I transmitter in 305GR-18
I-10-49 dial (link)
12-49-I base, ringer
 IV 49 I induction coil








6-49-I A base, ringer
 II 49 I induction coil






1950I-1-50 dial
I-2-50 dial
I-4-50 dial (link)
1-50-I base, ringer
1-50-I transmitter
2-50-I transmitter
II 50 I induction coil
7-50-I base
 II 50 I induction coil
5-50-I ringer
6-50-I base, ringer
12-50-I base, ringer





19515-51-I base and ringer
6-51-I 466-AC-3 base, ringer
8-51-I transmitter
10-51-I transmitter (NIB)
12-51-I base
12-51-I base and ringer





1952    2-52-I base, ringer (B3A)
2-52-I base, ringer
2-52-I transmitter
3-52-I base plate
3-52-I ringer
4-52-I base, ringer
4-52-I base, ringer
10-52-I base, ringer
 





1953 *       





1954 *       






* 1949: Production of color sets is resumed (starting Dec 1948) after having been suspended due to war time restrictions in 1942.

* 1953: Production of black 302/304s stopped, but specialty sets, such as 302AA/C(H13), 307s, 400-series, and color sets continues.

* 1954: Production of color sets is discontinued mid-year.

Sets with –I markings are so far always black sets. No plastic color sets, that still have original factory parts, have been found with the marking.

Of course, the compilation does not include the many sets we find today, that have no extra letter designations with the date stamps.


Previous relevant topics:
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg167475#msg167475
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg166432#msg166432
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg155069#msg155069
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7736.0
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15203.0
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg153220#msg153220
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 01:27:51 PM by unbeldi »