Author Topic: Date ranges for WE Parts  (Read 42908 times)

Offline poplar1

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2014, 05:01:38 PM »
201s (C1) and 211s (G1) hand telephone sets are shown with E1 type handsets in 1936. The earliest 211s have the "G1" code stamped on the back, like the D1, rather than on the front. 41A dial mountings like yours were the only type available on G-type handset mountings in the early years. The angle of the dial was fixed. Later sets have 43A dial mountings with adjustable dial angle.

Section C32.104, Issue 1, 9-15-36
Hand Telephone Sets, Hanging Type, Description


When were the first G1 Space savers made? I found one last weekend with a date of 4/13/39 on the receiver, 4/39 on the transmitter, II 39 on the inside and I 39 on the dial plate. I still thought C1s were made in the late 30s. Any ideas?....thanks....Doug
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Tim Mc

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2014, 01:23:53 PM »
This is a timely message since I was working on a 211 and was wondering the same thing.  This 211 is dated IV 37 on the switch assembly, has a G1 stamp on the case (hookswitch side) and a 41A dial mounting.  I assume that the front of the case is the side with the hookswitch?  The 5H dial and 150B dial plate are dated I-40.  Unfortunately not matching numbers like Doug's, but still a neat phone in original paint.  It was on kitchen duty until the 653 parts came back from the powder coater.

Offline rp2813

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2014, 01:59:17 AM »
The 7/38 F1 handset on the previous page causes me to wonder about my later "29" embossed F1, which has the verbiage "Manufactured By" instead of "Made By." 

Would it be correct to conclude that the different terminology depends more on which WECo facility "made"/"manufactured" it, and less on the date it rolled off the production line?

Is one type more common than the other?  I tend to think "manufactured" disappeared from all F1s at some point before WECo ceased production, but have no idea of when.
Ralph

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2014, 07:49:53 AM »
The 7/38 F1 handset on the previous page causes me to wonder about my later "29" embossed F1, which has the verbiage "Manufactured By" instead of "Made By." 

Would it be correct to conclude that the different terminology depends more on which WECo facility "made"/"manufactured" it, and less on the date it rolled off the production line?

Is one type more common than the other?  I tend to think "manufactured" disappeared from all F1s at some point before WECo ceased production, but have no idea of when.

I don't think we know how the difference in terms (made/manufactured) comes about, i.e. whether it relates to facilities, but it does appear that handsets made after WWII showed the shorter inscription, perhaps with some exceptions for brown handsets.

The solid-core handle also went out of style with onset of WWII, except for the brown ones.

Whenever the inscription uses the term manufactured, it also uses the long form of the company name, Western Electric Company, rather than Western Electric. The F1W handset seemed to always have used the long company name, but they didn't the use the phrase manufactured by at all.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:11:34 AM by unbeldi »

Offline poplar1

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2014, 10:02:28 AM »
The solid core F1-type handsets are marked "Manufactured by Western Electric Company" more often than not. We really had to search to find even two examples marked "Made by Western Electric"---a 12/39 brown one and the 7-15-38 black one pictured.

As for the brown handsets, I'd have to disagree, based on the following sample:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11918.0


-----------BROWN BAKELITE BELL SYSTEM F-TYPE HANDSETS----------------
SOLID:
99 (9/39)    MANUFACTURED BY    on 1/40 gold 302                            F1
129(12/39) MADE BY                    on Ivory 302 3/40                           F1
10 (1/40)    MANUFACTURED BY    on Ivory 302 9/40                           F1

HOLLOW:
99 (9/49)    MADE BY                    on rose 202  r. 1952                        F1
91 (9/51)    MADE BY                    on Gold 305 6/40, refurbished 51?    F1
74 (7/54)    MADE BY                    on Ivory 202 r. 1954                        F4
124(12/54) MADE BY                    on Ivory 202                                    ?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:09:34 AM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2014, 10:13:47 AM »
As for the brown handsets, I'd have to disagree, based on the following sample:

I guess that's right. I struck my exception remark for brown. My compilation table doesn't support that either.


Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2014, 10:31:05 AM »
A question perhaps remains unanswered:  Did WECo manufacture any new brown handsets from 1942-1948 ?
Is it only a coincidence, that the first example of those samples of brown handsets with hollow core is from 1949, the year that production of colored 302s resumed.
The brown handset of my ivory 304 was made before the start of the war, and so was the housing, but the 5J dial is from 4-47.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:34:31 AM by unbeldi »

Offline poplar1

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #67 on: July 31, 2014, 02:36:59 PM »
All new Western Electric color sets were manufacture discontinued by 1942-08-05, until after the war. It's likely that brown Bakelite handsets were discontinued then, if not before, until manufacture of color sets was resumed in 1949.

By 1941-01-02, new ivory, rose, dark blue, red and green 302s had thermoplastic handsets and housings. Painted brown handsets continued to be used on special order color 202s through 1954, as well as painted metallic color (statuary bronze, etc.) 302s (refurbished at least until 1951).

Even though manufacture of color sets was temporarily discontinued in 1942, there were still some remaining in stock.

It's possible that new 5J dials were needed for repairs and dial cutovers before the 1949 resumption of manufacturing of color 302s.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2014, 06:49:56 PM »
New date line for 6D dials as found on 302GR-4: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12392.msg130627#msg130627

Dial:  6D 5-53  (new earliest observation)
Dial face place: II 53  with dot and Z  (same as existing limit)

As usual, the dot pattern around the date is interesting. Two dots vertical before the year, and one above the 5.

The same set also extends the date for the H3P cord: III 55 (was II 55)
Quote
H3P (Retractile/spring)
III 40....II 55
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 07:33:16 PM by unbeldi »

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2014, 03:35:40 PM »
Which date range were E1 handsets stamped with these beautiful patent dates in the receiver end?  I seem to recall to have seen a discussion about this on the Forum, but can't find it.

This handset is the type with five lines in the inscription, which is listed here as found as early as 5-31. I had thought these stamps were applied earlier though.
The handset was found with a receiver dated 1 31 (or I 31).

The transmitter was already a 625A/F1.

I found a thread in which the red star was discussed, not conclusively by any means, but perhaps that's what I remember.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 04:04:22 PM by unbeldi »

Offline poplar1

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2014, 04:19:33 PM »
This may very well be a 1931 handset, other than the 1935 or later 625A transmitter. I haven't documented the dates for the red patent markings, but  there were some plain handles before and possibly after these; then, the dates were stamped in green or yellow beginning around 1934.

Your handset was converted from an E1B to an E1E. This was a typical upgrade when the phone was remanufactured.  Often, the snuff catcher (mouthpiece) installed with the 625A has a groove, while the receiver cap, if original, does not.

The 5-line logo may have been adopted by 2-31, which is the latest reported date for the older logo (found on a handset with a Feb. '31 transmitter.).   So far, no 3-31 or 4-31 handsets have been reported.

"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2014, 04:27:30 PM »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #72 on: August 07, 2014, 05:06:52 PM »
Patent # 1,719,645 was issued July 2, 1929 for "Intelligence Signaling Apparatus."

http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=1719645&idkey=NONE&homeurl=http%3A%252F%252Fpatft.uspto.gov%252Fnetahtml%252FPTO%252Fpatimg.htm

I looked that up too. It's for an improved bullet transmitter. It sets the lower bracket for dating, but the inscription places the handset after 1930. The handset was not otherwise dated, which makes it older than 1934, probably.

Since the receiver also has nice vermillion patent stamps of similar quality as the handset itself, and is dated first quarter or Jan. 1931, my impression is also that it is one of the first five-line handsets, closing that gap that you have in your chart.

The 625A transmitter adapter did not yet have a capacitor built-in and the F1 itself was of 4-36. Both caps had grooves already.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2014, 05:30:33 PM »
I would prefer to use only handsets with the original dated 395B transmitters as well as original receivers and ungrooved caps when updating the table. Since the transmitter and both caps were changed on this handset, it's possible but not proven that the handset is early 1931. The original transmitter will also have the month rather than the quarter.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline unbeldi

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Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2014, 08:49:15 AM »
The 625A transmitter adapter did not yet have a capacitor built-in and the F1 itself was of 4-36.

Turns out that this is an interesting feature, as it is not common (or is it?).

Here are pictures of the adapter piece in the 625-A transmitter assembly, the core of the structure.
There is no provision for mounting the 129A capacitor that was already standard for the bullet transmitter (395A), and certainly for other 625s.

The part number of this piece is P-216952.  However, it appears that the piece has been machined after die casting, as the part number characters have perhaps one millimeter of their lower part or baseline missing.


PS:  I am now convinced that this is a conversion 625A. Under magnification, it is evident that the inside of the unit has been 'machined out'
to yield just a ring with the threads. A new contact base plate was pressed into the ring.

So, when did they do this, whoever they is.


PS: My thinking is that such 395->625 conversions happened much later... 1940s.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 10:21:19 AM by unbeldi »