Author Topic: AST Not Working on AE-1A or AE-11A  (Read 6958 times)

Offline Slal

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AST Not Working on AE-1A or AE-11A
« on: March 20, 2014, 02:37:16 PM »
Hi everyone,

This will be my last phone for a while.  (About blown my spending budget until I learn more!)

Usual apprentice questions.  Please point out any 'bogus' parts.  Also not sure what model this is.  Infer it's an AE-11 because of handset & resistor between #2 & #8.  (Thanks to 'Stub' & others who provided links to cat's.)





Upper part is metal alloy & lower part is brass.  Paint has been stripped off the dial ring, or they made them that way on some models?  From catalog, "Gold dials can be supplied with gold plate finish if specified."  That would be stamped on it correct?  e.g. 14kt gold plate.  Would also make phone out of my price range!  ; )



Hard to fit disassembly into one photo.  Everything look kosher, or spot modern replacements?



Believe read somewhere this dial was introduced in 1926, but AE-11 would be newer & presumably have 24A36 stamped on it?  Or... An A-1A could be 'modernized' back then with a handset & resistor?




Detail shot of transmitter.  5L seems to indicate 'local battery.'  Common to swap out for whatever was available back then, or this *should* be 5C-1 (.125-.250 amp) ?



Found very helpful diagram by "JRyan."  3 connections = 'polarized' receiver (no magnets) + resistor and no induction coil needed in subset.    As good a segue way as any then into what I think might be at root of AST problem.



As mentioned, AST on this phone doesn't seem to be working.  This part might be the culprit? 

Anyone know resistance just between the solder points?   

Measured it & nowhere near 205 ohms.  More like 10...  : 0 ! 

Possible its windings could be damaged?  No 'zero load' or break in circuit, but too much current is getting though? 

Have 'modern' 205 Ohm resistor but none with open windings like this.  Safe to try it?  Don't want to go tinkering around with something that's survived for 70-80 years & dork it up just because I wasn't patient.

Thanks for reading.  Advice / opinions greatly appreciated! 

--Bruce   

Offline stub

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  • AE Type 14 A
Re: AST Not Working on AE-1A or AE-11A
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2014, 10:49:57 PM »
Slal,
        Everything on your phone (AE 11 A) is correct except the LB(local battery) transmitter, you need a 5C1. I have found that a 35A7 transmitter will work in place of the 5C 1 just fine. My resistor is 205.7 ohms on the money. The transmitter being wrong and the resistance off , it might have a lot of sidetone . Try your resistor and your transmitter and see if that changes the sidetone. It won't hurt anything just long enough to test.  Hope this helps.   stub
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 10:57:40 PM by stub »
Kenneth Stubblefield        
  CRPF
   TCI

Offline G-Man

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Re: AST Not Working on AE-1A or AE-11A
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2014, 11:18:39 PM »
Aside from any transmitter compatibility issues the primary hitch is that it uses a sidetone circuit. 
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 11:20:23 PM by G-Man »

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: AST Not Working on AE-1A or AE-11A
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2014, 12:51:45 AM »
Bruce,

When you say that AST is not working, do you mean that there is a lot of sidetone?

G-Man, I don't currently own one of these AE sets with the induction coil receiver, so I don't know for sure, but Ralph Meyer describes this circuit in his book as an antisidetone circuit.  Can you elaborate?  Maybe the induction coil receiver circuit was not as good as other AST circuits.  That's something I haven't looked into.  Stub probably has a bunch of experience with these.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 12:55:05 AM by Phonesrfun »
-Bill G

Offline G-Man

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  • Posts: 1957
Re: AST Not Working on AE-1A or AE-11A
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2014, 01:34:09 AM »
Bruce,

When you say that AST is not working, do you mean that there is a lot of sidetone?

G-Man, I don't currently own one of these AE sets with the induction coil receiver, so I don't know for sure, but Ralph Meyer describes this circuit in his book as an antisidetone circuit.  Can you elaborate?  Maybe the induction coil receiver circuit was not as good as other AST circuits.  That's something I haven't looked into.  Stub probably has a bunch of experience with these.



Bill, I will defer to Stub's expertise but doesn’t the receiver coil have only have three windings?  Also, off the top of my head I am not sure but weren’t these sets introduced prior to the AST circuit?




Offline G-Man

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Re: AST Not Working on AE-1A or AE-11A
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2014, 01:40:37 AM »
Bill-

I just found the answer to my own questions.

Here is an excerpt from the catalog describing them as anti-sidetone models.





All central battery dial Monophones are furnished
with anti·sidetone booster circuits. Types 1-A, 3 and
4-A use a separate three-winding induction coil, while
Types 11-A, 13 and 14-A are of the "induction-coil.
receiver" type. The latter have an induction coil
incorporated in the receiver itself, which makes a
separate induction coil unnecessary. The Type 11-A
desk stand may be used with any ringer box con·
taining a 1 mf. or 2 mf. condenser.
[/font]

Offline stub

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  • AE Type 14 A
Re: AST Not Working on AE-1A or AE-11A
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2014, 10:14:51 AM »
Bruce,
          I rechecked my 11 A and found that I also had a lot of sidetone , like on a booster circuit. I went back thru my phone and found that I had the line cord wired wrong. This way you won't have the sidetone. Look at your diagram and on the line in wire from the phone put BR #4 and Red #2 to one side ( red or green won't matter) of the house line in wire and orange #3 to the other. Now I have AST working!!.Hope this helps   stub
Kenneth Stubblefield        
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   TCI

Offline Slal

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Re: AST Not Working on AE-1A or AE-11A
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2014, 06:02:56 PM »
Thanks for replies.

In answer to one question, I guess saying "AST doesn't work" might be relative. ; )

When picking up handset and/or dialing out-- hear very loud 'tock' noise.  e.g. pickup handset "TOCK" ; dial a one "TOCK!"  ; dial a 5 "TOCK!"-- all the way through zero.  Called wife's cell to play with new phone.  My own voice (in a normal tone) is amplified to an unpleasant level.   

Stub, thanks for your time in checking your own phone & posting results.  Will definitely print that out & give it a try.

Before I put phone back together though, maybe helpful to show subset & planned replacement resistor before I do anything.  (Also have to decide if want to repaint finger plate & escutcheon ring.)



If unclear in photo:

Telco In:
Green----> #1
Red------>  #2

Ringer:
LH---> coupling ----> brown cloth ----> #2
RH ---> soldered to front of condenser (green cloth)

Condenser:
rear (black)---> coupling----> brown cloth ----> #1
front (green) ---> #4

Modern Cap: (250V)
to #'s 3 & 1

Four line cord from subset to phone:

Seller's configuration:
Blue = cut/not used
Red = #3
Yellow = #2
Green = #1

Alternate connection that worked, but only once.  (Condenser applied current again?)

Blue (not used)
Red = #3
Green = #2
Yellow = #1




Wire wound Resistor, 206 ohms rounded up.  Let know if not recommended.

Other questions before I put it back together:

Transmitter:
1.) Where can I find 'correct' replacement and how much is a fair price for one? 

(I'd like to eliminate this as a variable when trying to troubleshoot-- esp. if replacing resistor and or changing wiring config. do not help.) 

Receiver:
2.)  If possible damage to receiver using 'as is' without AST, let know & will put phone in storage until transmitter and or wound resistor on mica board can be located.

Thx!

--Bruce

PS: A reference book called "Old Time Telephones" by Ralph Meyer will be here tomorrow or early next week.  Hopefully it will help bring me up to speed & won't have to ask so many questions.

Offline Slal

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Re: AST Not Working on AE-1A or AE-11A
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2014, 09:12:25 PM »
Just an update & happy me.  (Well almost because I'm a perfectionist.) ; )

Resistor has eliminated amplification of own voice while talking.  So I guess that solves the AST problem. 

Still makes that "TOCK" sound when taken off cradle or while dialing. 

1.) That's just how they worked.
2.) Correct transmitter might still be needed?

Last set of photos-- hopefully some can spot if any wiring can be improved.



Three out to phone.



Wiring with resistor in there for testing.  Haven't tried Stub's suggestion yet so labels still attached



If not, at least it doesn't sound like I'm yelling into the phone! 

Anyway, enough fun for one day.  Time to go watch a movie. 

--Bruce

Offline stub

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  • AE Type 14 A
Re: AST Not Working on AE-1A or AE-11A
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2014, 09:37:22 PM »
Bruce,
          The noise you hear when going off hook and dialing is normal for AE phones , mine does it too. Good luck finding the resistor!!!!!!!!
          Well that's one almost done, time to get another and another and another one. Great Job!! 
           You might be able to get transmitter from Paul Vaverchak in PA., his prices are very reasonable. If you want to call him send me a PM and I'll give you his number.   stub
Kenneth Stubblefield        
  CRPF
   TCI

Offline Slal

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  • Posts: 361
Re: AST Not Working on AE-1A or AE-11A
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2014, 02:05:35 PM »
Bruce,
          The noise you hear when going off hook and dialing is normal for AE phones , mine does it too. Good luck finding the resistor!!!!!!!!
          Well that's one almost done, time to get another and another and another one. Great Job!! 
           You might be able to get transmitter from Paul Vaverchak in PA., his prices are very reasonable. If you want to call him send me a PM and I'll give you his number.   stub

Thanks for reply.  Now I can rest easy about the dialing noise. 

But don't encourage me!  I'll be hunting around for an AE-4A or AE-14A because I think they look cool.  ; )

Seriously though--  it was a bit of luck with resistor.  Have to get most of my parts for old analog amps & decks from Asia or E. Europe.  This seller is in the US & has quite a few goodies.  Very good parts connection.

And speaking of parts-- might as well do it the right way.  Will send PM about transmitter.

Thanks guys! 

--Bruce