Author Topic: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?  (Read 16699 times)

Offline Sargeguy

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #105 on: January 20, 2016, 04:01:37 PM »
Are there other signs that say "BELL TOLL CONNECTIONS"?
Greg Sargeant
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Offline Signguy

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #106 on: January 20, 2016, 07:14:27 PM »
Off the top of my head.... none that I am aware of.

Offline Fabius

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #107 on: January 20, 2016, 08:05:50 PM »
Here is a neat 1908 pattern sign in crappy condition:

OLD MUTUAL TELEPHONE COMPANY BELL TOLL CONNECTIONS PORCELAIN ENAMEL SIGN


What a rare sign! Not truly a 1908 but the earlier L&LD (no BELL SYSTEM).
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Offline Sargeguy

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #108 on: January 20, 2016, 09:06:37 PM »
But they wouldn't use "BELL SYSTEM" if they weren't part of the Bell System, and were only connecting to it.  I would think the use of "Bell" on the sign would make it a 1908.
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
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Offline rdelius

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #109 on: January 20, 2016, 10:14:58 PM »
There were some independent signs marked "Bell System Connections".

Offline Fabius

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #110 on: January 20, 2016, 10:33:55 PM »
But they wouldn't use "BELL SYSTEM" if they weren't part of the Bell System, and were only connecting to it.  I would think the use of "Bell" on the sign would make it a 1908.

The use of the words BELL SYSTEM under a L&LD Bell is what makes a sign a 1908. I don't feel just the word BELL makes it a 1908. On this sign the wording is advertising that they were connected to the Bell network, not saying Mutual was a part of the Bell System. The specific purpose of the 1908 logo was to show/advertise the new designation AT&T came up with to name the system of it's controlled telephone companies.
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Offline Signguy

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #111 on: January 21, 2016, 10:51:17 AM »
A lot of different signage was displayed by Independents during the early years without regard to Bell System practices. Rochester, for example,  used the 08 logo well after 1921. Others used "incorporated" under the bell. As to the Mutual sign, remember independents, were only allowed to connect to the Bell toll system after the early 19 teens. Now did Mutual hi-jack the use of that sign, or the connections,  before it was legal? If they did it legally, that would date that sign after around 1912 or more. What makes me think that's when this sign is dated is the specific use of the words "Toll Connections" because that is what the new law (allowed) specified.

Offline Fabius

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #112 on: January 21, 2016, 11:39:32 AM »
Rochester, for example,  used the 08 logo well after 1921. Others used "incorporated" under the bell.

I have Rochester signs where the L&LD Bell is used but none are a 1908 bell. A quick search of Google image brings up several Rochester Telephone L&LD signs and even a red white and blue independent shield sign but no 1908 bell. They used the L&LD after the 1908 & 1921 logos came out which had the Bell System wording because they were not part of the Bell System. This applies to other telephone companies such as Bell Telephone of Canada. Do you have a photo you can share of a Rochester Telephone sign with a 1908 bell?

Southern Bell and Cumberland T&T used INCORPORATED on their signs. Probably others.
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Offline Signguy

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #113 on: January 21, 2016, 12:21:18 PM »
Your splitting hairs here or else maybe I didn't explain it well. Rochester did not use the BELL SYSTEM designation since it was not. It used the rest of the logo so technically you are correct.
NO, I do not have a photo of a Rochester with a complete 08 logo. Since Rochester tel corp was founded in 1920 the logo they used can reasonably be assumed to be something of their own choosing since they could not use BELL SYSTEM. Omitting the words "bell system" under the bell does not make it a pre 08 sign but it does make it a L&LD logo.

Offline Fabius

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #114 on: January 21, 2016, 01:27:27 PM »
Omitting the words "bell system" under the bell does not make it a pre 08 sign but it does make it a L&LD logo.

My point exactly since you specifically said: Rochester, for example,  used the 08 logo well after 1921.. As I posted the L&LD logo was used after the 1908/1921 logos by the non-Bell System companies. Rochester never used the 1908 logo.

Good discussion.  :)
Tom Vaughn
La Porte, Indiana
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Offline Sargeguy

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #115 on: January 21, 2016, 03:29:51 PM »
I've always categorized any sign that had a circle around the L&LD bell with the telco name in it a 1908-pattern bell.  Usually they have blue background with a white border, and almost always have "Bell System" at the bottom.  I can think of some exceptions, including the white NET&T sign (not blue), the "Use The Bell/Universal Service" sign (no telco name), the AT&T flange I recently found (no white border).  I would consider this one to be an exception as well (no "Bell System").  I would categorize this a Bell System sign rather than an Independent because it seems to have originated after the Bell System was established, advertises a service provided by the Bell System, and utilizes a version of their logo. 
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
TCI /ATCA #4409

Offline Signguy

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #116 on: January 22, 2016, 12:05:24 PM »
Greg.... Your point is well taken. There are many exceptions but just because of the lack of "bell system" from the 08 logo  does not disqualify the sign from being of that era.

Offline Signguy

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #117 on: January 22, 2016, 05:47:52 PM »
I never did mention that the seller of the Mutual sign is a long time, well respected telephone sign collector. I'm sure he's wishing that the condition was at least an 8 or more. Of course if it was we probably would not be seeing it.

Offline 19and41

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #118 on: January 22, 2016, 06:12:21 PM »
Here is a little film on the making of enameled signs.  I used to make enameled jewelry.  It is an interesting craft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-tkxAa9o7w
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke

Offline Fabius

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Re: Worst Condition Sign Ever on eBay?
« Reply #119 on: January 22, 2016, 07:41:40 PM »
just because of the lack of "bell system" from the 08 logo  does not disqualify the sign from being of that era.

That's a contradiction. It's the wording "Bell System" under the L&LD bell that makes it a 1908 Bell logo.

A red white and blue independent telephone shield sign could have been made in 1908 makeing it a 1908 sign but that doesn't make it a 1908 bell sign. What I'm trying to get across is that I'm talking about the 1908 bell logo (L&LD bell with Bell System) not 1908 era signs.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 07:46:46 PM by Fabius »
Tom Vaughn
La Porte, Indiana
ATCA Past President
ATCA #765
C*NET 1+ 821-9905