Author Topic: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number  (Read 8822 times)

Offline gands-antiques

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Hello,

This WE 653 will not break a dial tone when I try to make a call. The phone will receive calls and ring and it will transmit and receive and transmit...it just won't break a dial tone and call out. 

The wires are in the original bundle and they are faded so I can't tell what color they are. I installed another dial using the same wire positions as the #4 dial that was in it originally.   I traced all of the wires in the phone with a millimeter and got a resistance reading where I should compared to the 653 wiring diagram on the TCI website.   Some of the wires showed resistance at more than the connection shown in the wiring diagram and I wasn't sure if this should happen. 

I also installed two calibrated #5 dials and a calibrated #6 dial in it but it still doesn't break a dial tone. The dial and hook contacts appear to be opening and closing like they should.

Any help with troubleshooting this would really be appreciated.

Thanks,
Gary

unbeldi

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2014, 10:27:29 PM »
This is a nice looking set, clean and well kept.

Your set is a 653-BC. This version was used for the tip-party subscriber on two-party message rate lines.
For this type of service the set was specially wired and also had an additional contact pair on the hook switch.
The result was that the central office could automatically detect which of the two sets on the same local loop made a call by measuring the impedance on the line, and could selectively ring either phone.

Please make sure you are using the correct wiring diagram, not the one for the 653-A version.  The 653-A version is the corresponding set for the ring-party, or for standard bridged service.

Which diagram did you compare the set to when measuring?

Perhaps the set was mis-wired by someone for the reason stated. Since you have a meter to test, I would measure the internal resistance of the set, i.e. measure across the line cord contacts L1 and L2, when the set is disconnected. Take the set off hook, and you should get some measurable resistance of several hundred ohms. Now slide a piece of paper or thin plastic between the contacts on the dial that generate the dial pulses. This would be the Y and BK terminals. You could also just disconnect the wire on Y (brown-yellow).  The resistance measurement should be very high at this time. If you get no difference or only a small one, you know you have a problem, because your central office can't see the difference either.

Alternately, have to tried to disconnect one of the ringer wires (red or black) and try dialing?

What kind of line is the set connected to?  VOIP or a copper line?


PS:  I see there is a diagram glued into the housing.  Could you take a clear shot of it and post it?



« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 10:40:07 PM by unbeldi »

Offline gands-antiques

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2014, 11:47:23 PM »
Thanks a lot for all of the valuable information.  I won't pretend to understand all of it. I don't see two sets of hook switch contacts. 

I have Cox telephone service and I use it all of thetime with many rotary phones.

I disconnected the ringer and is still won't dial out and I am not sure where the ringer wires were connect to when it worked.  The diagram shows them connected to YY and GND but when I connected the wires that way it does not ring.

I am getting a large resistance reading between Y & BK but I am getting NO resistance when I contact L1 and L2 with the hook off.

Will you please tell me what might be wrong if I am not getting the large resistance you said I should get between L1 and L2.
 
I'm attaching a picture of the diagram that is in the phone but I don't know if you can read it. It's in the corner and I can't straighten out the two sides. 

*** I was told the problem with not dialing out (breaking dial tone) might be a bad condensor.  It has a long rectangle metal tube condensor with 2 contacts on each end.  It says 1MF and 2MF.  Is there a way to test the condensor?

I have some 250WVDC  0.47 capacitors if they would help. I bought these capacitiors last year when Bill Geurts recommended I get theem to correct a problem with another phone.

Thank again for all of your help...I really appreciate it.

Gary
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 09:48:51 AM by gands-antiques »

unbeldi

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2014, 04:16:11 PM »
Thanks for the diagram.  That helps a lot.

To actually understand that diagram I had to redraw it as a real circuit diagram.
It is interesting how they wired this with a 101A induction coil.  The equivalent of this telephone as a desk set was the 304. But that used the 101B induction coil which had a center tap in the primary winding. I don't know when the 304 or the 101B coil was introduced actually. Perhaps it was after the war. So they had to use a different scheme here for tip-party identification.

But I have a couple questions for you.
Did you express that the phone was working at one time?  If so, what changed?

Thanks a lot for all of the valuable information.  I won't pretend to understand all of it. I don't see two sets of hook switch contacts. 
There is only one stack of contacts, but compared to a standard set (Type A) this one has extra contact springs piled up.
Looking closely at your pictures, I am wondering if someone resoldered the wires on the hookswitch. I seem to see unclean soldering that doesn't look like factory work.  What does it look to you on the real object?

Quote
I have Cox telephone service and I use it all of thetime with many rotary phones.

I disconnected the ringer and is still won't dial out and I am not sure where the ringer wires were connect to when it worked.  The diagram shows them connected to YY and GND but when I connected the wires that way it does not ring.
Indeed that won't work according to the diagram, because this set was supposed receive ringing signal between ground and tip (L2).
You are receiving ringing between L1 and L2.

Quote
I am getting a large resistance reading between Y & BK but I am getting NO resistance when I contact L1 and L2 with the hook off.

Will you please tell me what might be wrong if I am not getting the large resistance you said I should get between L1 and L2.

We need to revise this test.

Quote
I'm attaching a picture of the diagram that is in the phone but I don't know if you can read it. It's in the corner and I can't straighten out the two sides. 

*** I was told the problem with not dialing out (breaking dial tone) might be a bad condensor.  It has a long rectangle metal tube condensor with 2 contacts on each end.  It says 1MF and 2MF.  Is there a way to test the condensor?

My suspicion is not that any condenser is bad, but the the set needs to be properly wired for bridged service. I need to study the diagram a little more to suggest something.

Here is a somewhat improved version of your diagram.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 07:31:48 PM by unbeldi »

unbeldi

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2014, 05:55:35 PM »
Here is the true circuit diagram of this 653-BC.

Several possibilities exist for rewiring to use modern bridged ringing.
The red broken lines is one suggestions.

*Move the black ringer wire from GND to L1. I believe you have that already.
*Move the red ringer wire from YY to RR.
This puts the ringer and the 1MF condenser in series and straight across the telephone line on L1 and L2. The impedance of the ringer is fairly low, and probably represents about a 2 to 2.5 REN load. Other than that this makes the set equivalent to a 302. The exceptions are that the switches are placed slightly differently.

If this doesn't work, then your set is mis-wired elsewhere, I think. But the wires are impossible to trace by pictures and the colors all look more or less a shade of brown.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 08:19:38 PM by unbeldi »

unbeldi

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2014, 06:34:55 PM »
For comparison, here is a diagram for a 302 telephone in bridged ringing configuration.

Offline gands-antiques

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2014, 06:42:37 PM »
- The phone has not dialed out since I bought it a couple of weeks ago.

- I looked at the original pictures of the wiring I posted and the ringer wires were connected Red to YY on the terminal block and Black to L1 on the network but when I reconnected the wires like this the ringer didn't work. 

I finally got the ringer to work again by connecting the Red wire to L2 on the network and the Black to BK on the terminal board that is mounted on top of the capacitors.  Now the ringer rings when I call the phone.  When I lift the receiver off of the hook the ringer rings for a millisecond and the dial tone only stays on a couple of seconds.  I must have messed it up worse by wiring the ringer the way I did.

- The solder on the hook switch look factory to me.

Thanks,
Gary

unbeldi

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2014, 06:59:48 PM »
- The phone has not dialed out since I bought it a couple of weeks ago.

- I looked at the original pictures of the wiring I posted and the ringer wires were connected Red to YY on the terminal block and Black to L1 on the network but when I reconnected the wires like this the ringer didn't work. 

I finally got the ringer to work again by connecting the Red wire to L2 on the network and the Black to BK on the terminal board that is mounted on top of the capacitors.  Now the ringer rings when I call the phone.  When I lift the receiver off of the hook the ringer rings for a millisecond and the dial tone only stays on a couple of seconds.  I must have messed it up worse by wiring the ringer the way I did.
Yes, I would expect problems like that.  You have the ringer alone on the line in series with the primary of the induction coil.  That shunts the DC current permanently.   The capacitor must be in the ringer circuit.

Quote
- The solder on the hook switch look factory to me.
Ok, great.


Please try wiring the set as I described.

Offline gands-antiques

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2014, 10:11:20 PM »
Hello and thanks again for all of your help!!

I didn't understand the intent of the the hook switch sketch.

I moved the ringer wires to the positions you suggested (Black to L1 and Red to RR) and now it does not ring at all.  You said if this doesn't work, then the set is mis-wired elsewhere, you believe. 

I believe it is mis-wired or possibly the hook switch contacts are not opening properly?? 

Even when I first got it and the ringer was working the phone would not dial out and it still won't. 

I agree, the brown faded wiring and bundle material makes it impossible to trace the wires.  A friend of mine suggested I cut open the bundles to expose all of the wires so each wire could be traced.

I hate to open up the wire bundles but I may have to??

Thanks,
Gary

unbeldi

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2014, 10:23:43 PM »
Hello and thanks again for all of your help!!

I didn't understand the intent of the the hook switch sketch.

I moved the ringer wires to the positions you suggested (Black to L1 and Red to RR) and now it does not ring at all.  You said if this doesn't work, then the set is mis-wired elsewhere, you believe. 

I believe it is mis-wired or possibly the hook switch contacts are not opening properly?? 

Even when I first got it and the ringer was working the phone would not dial out and it still won't. 

I agree, the brown faded wiring and bundle material makes it impossible to trace the wires.  A friend of mine suggested I cut open the bundles to expose all of the wires so each wire could be traced.

I hate to open up the wire bundles but I may have to??

Thanks,
Gary

Oh, I would hate to do that too, and I don't think it is necessary.  There aren't that many wires to trace.  You just need to slide pieces of paper between the contacts on the dial and the hookswitch, so each spring is isolated and nothing conducts. Remove the transmitter and receiver elements, too.  Then you can use an ohmmeter to verify connections and the resistance should always be very low, one or two ohms when you are at the ends of each wire.
Just don't take steps you are going to regret.  This is a nice looking set and with patience it will work again.

unbeldi

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2014, 10:31:45 PM »
The hookswitch diagram shows the terminal numbers as used in my schematic.  The hookswitch consists of all the switches labeled HS, and the small numbers are the terminal numbers.

If the set doesn't ring with the suggested configuration, then it could be that the condenser is bad, indeed. It would mean that it is permanently open, not conducting AC.

But first make sure the 1MF condenser is correctly wired between L2 and  RR.  There are two capacitors in the can and you need to identify which leads are which.  Perhaps those are mixed up.
To test this condenser you could simply disconnect it and use one of those ringing caps you have in its place.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 10:35:01 PM by unbeldi »

Offline gands-antiques

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2014, 11:48:12 PM »
The condenser leads were mostly connected to the wrong places.  I connected them according to your note and to the wiring diagram in the phone and still didn't get it to dial out or ring with incoming call. 

I disconnected the 4 leads to the two condensers and then I connected one of the .47 caps to each comdenser wire pair (one at a time) and it still wouldn't dial our or ring with incoming call. 

Do both sets of leads need to be connected to  .47 caps??

I put the meter on each set of capacitors leads (one pair at a time) and I set the meter to ohms and then to current but still didn't get a reading with either setting. 

Is there a way to test the condensers with a multimedia?     

Thanks,
Gary
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 07:35:03 AM by gands-antiques »

unbeldi

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2014, 07:56:11 AM »
The condenser leads were mostly connected to the wrong places.  I connected them according to your note and to the wiring diagram in the phone and still didn't get it to dial out or ring with incoming call. 

I disconnected the 4 leads to the two condensers and then I connected one of the .47 caps to each comdenser wire pair (one at a time) and it still wouldn't dial our or ring with incoming call. 

Do both sets of leads need to be connected to  .47 caps??
You connected the caps to the terminals (L2-RR and BK-C)  and not to the leads from the old cap, correct?
If you connect only the ringer cap then the ringer should work but you wont be able to hear anything in the receiver. Not connecting the ringer cap only effects the ringer and the telephone should work.

Quote
I put the meter on each set of capacitors leads (one pair at a time) and I set the meter to ohms and then to current but still didn't get a reading with either setting. 

Is there a way to test the condensers with a multimedia?     
Caps can't be tested completely with most multimeters, only the more expensive models measure capacitances.  But as an ohmmeter all can detect a shorted cap. The resistance will be low when it is shorted. You cannot test an open capacitor, when one of the leads is internally disconnected.  If you have an AC audio generator you can test them, my measuring the AC current flowing through the cap.

However, substituting the audio condenser in the set (2MF) with a 0.47 is insufficient for the operation of the telephone. It needs to be 4x larger, and it seems that it was working anyhow.

In fact, from your descriptions it appears that all components in the phone are in working condition, just not all together. Perhaps there is some doubt about the ringing condenser.  You can test by connecting only the ringer and capacitor in series across a telephone line, without the rest of the set.   Connect the red wire of the telephone line to the black ringer wire, the red ringer wire to one lead of the condenser, and the other lead of the condenser to the green wire of the telephone line.  When you call that line, the ringer should work.  This is perhaps the best test of the ringer capacitor and the ringer in isolation from any other problems.

While you have the ringer and the ringer cap completely disconnected from the phone, you can test the audio portion. Connect the line between L1 and L2 and see if you can dial and talk and answer.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 08:11:22 AM by unbeldi »

unbeldi

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2014, 09:49:32 AM »
In order to get this telephone working correctly, you need to be systematic in diagnosis. Otherwise you'll waste a lot of time and will never get unambiguous answers.  Don't just connect something here or there without a plan.

The first step is always determining exactly what you actually have in front of you. I do the same every time.
You said the "condenser leads were mostly connected to the wrong places." Where were they? Without knowing that in advance everything you did so far, is meaningless.

I don't mean to belittle your effort, sorry, if this seems trivial, sorry, please ignore.

Take inventory of the set, and write down what is connected where. I draw diagram sketches often by drawing the pieces on paper, and interconnecting them the way I find them with notes where warranted to explain something.  Then I can sit down with a proper circuit diagram and compare without having to stick my fingers in between wires again and again and risk breaking those old solder joints.

The fact that something works in some configuration, doesn't always mean it is correct, like you found out about connecting the ringer between BK and L2, even if the phone worked somehow in that situation, it is not correct.

Old phones may have gone through many hands even if they still look nice. Sometimes, especially when they look nice. I have received beautiful phones from old collectors that were extremely miswired and had very poor audio function.
The beauty is that these old phones can almost always be repaired/rewired to work just as they did decades ago.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 09:52:13 AM by unbeldi »

unbeldi

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Re: Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2014, 02:29:21 PM »
I just verified my circuit diagram and your wiring schematic found in the set against a diagram from the 1940 Issue 2 of BSP Section C63.233 that Poplar1 just posted here:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg130217#msg130217

We just need to figured out in which way your telephone differs from the diagram.